New Player (to 5th), looking to optimise, which books do I pick up?

[prototype00]

So I might be starting a game soon, and since I'm new to 5th edition, I don't have any of the books.

However I am an old hand at 3rd and 4th edition, and I rather enjoy optimising and playing with synergies.

With that in mind I would like to ask, what books would you recommend I pick up to make my first character with?

[Kane0]

Theres only three to choose from really: PHB, Sword Coast Adventure Guide for a couple class and race options plus elemental evil for some spells.
UA is official unofficial content available online, a lot of that would be more applicable to op fu but needs DM approval.

[prototype00]

Since you said it's available online I take it the UA is not a book then?

[RedNinja999]

Also Volo's Guide to monsters gives you some races that you may find helps

[utopus]

Since you said it's available online I take it the UA is not a book then?

UnearthedArcana content can be found online for free - it's not a published book. The lead editors use UnearthedArcana for playtesting new subclasses. Some UA is reasonably balanced, but none of the UA is at the moment officially recognized as compatible with adventurers league

[prototype00]

I take it that all the book stuff is adventurer's league okay then?

[Haldir]

Optimization is not the end-all-be-all that it was in 3e, so don't focus on that. In general 5e is a much better system with just as much support for different concepts, just waay lighter in rules (because its designed tighter and less innanely). There's no need for ridiculous splatbook bloat, which keeps the game nice and accessible.

[prototype00]

Optimization is not the end-all-be-all that it was in 3e, so don't focus on that. In general 5e is a much better system with just as much support for different concepts, just waay lighter in rules (because its designed tighter and less innanely). There's no need for ridiculous splatbook bloat, which keeps the game nice and accessible.

I had heard as much. But I still like having what options there are available to me.

[Contrast]

I take it that all the book stuff is adventurer's league okay then?

I believe Adventurers League also limits you to the PHB and one other source. So if you take something from the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide you're then locked out from taking stuff from Elemental Evil for example. Obviously home games, its all up to your DM.

[prototype00]

Ah, that's interesting. Given that limitation which books would you say were most useful? I'm guessing the PHB and the Player's Guide?

[Waazraath]

PHB suffices. For some specific builds (mainly rogues and clerics, and some niche other gishes) the cantrips in Sword Coast Adventurers Guide really make 'em stronger. Classes that want to do damage in melee, without extra attack. If you don't want to play a build like that, you can either choose SCAG for some extra subclass options (though most are a bit weaker then those in the PHB, tbh) or Volo's for some interesting racial options. Princies of the Apocalyps for a few races and spells really isn't worth it. It's a nice campaign, but the player extra's aren't worth buying it, imo.

[Tsubodai]

To be honest, the vast majority of the optimal multiclass combos e.t.c. are found in the PHB. For example Sorclock or Sorcadin.
Other than the PHB, SCAG is good, but bear in mind that Xanathar's Guide to Everything is coming in November and that will make lots of the UA stuff official.

[Rogerdodger557]

Ah, that's interesting. Given that limitation which books would you say were most useful? I'm guessing the PHB and the Player's Guide?

It depends on your build. If you are making an Eldritch Knight, the cantrips from SCAG that useful once you get extra attack is Lightning Lure. In my opinion, the Elemental Evil Player's Companion is the better choice of a +1. It has more spells, and absorb elements, which is one of the best reaction spells to have.

[Citan]

It depends on your build. If you are making an Eldritch Knight, the cantrips from SCAG that useful once you get extra attack is Lightning Lure. In my opinion, the Elemental Evil Player's Companion is the better choice of a +1. It has more spells, and absorb elements, which is one of the best reaction spells to have.
Hi OP!

I concur with this. Unless you want a very specific build that rely on SCAG subclass or cantrips (such as a Bladesinger, or a Rogue using Booming Blade), EE is usually the best choice because it offers a neat array of good to great spells.

Beyond that though, it's not like the choice is that difficult.
- PHB is paid material.
- SCAG is paid material.
- EE is free material.

So grab PHB as a priority, grab EE because it's free, and wait until you have some more spare money to get SCAG would be my suggestion (note that I never got hands on Volo's, so not sure how worth it is).

[nickl_2000]

Hi OP!

I concur with this. Unless you want a very specific build that rely on SCAG subclass or cantrips (such as a Bladesinger, or a Rogue using Booming Blade), EE is usually the best choice because it offers a neat array of good to great spells.

Beyond that though, it's not like the choice is that difficult.
- PHB is paid material.
- SCAG is paid material.
- EE is free material.

So grab PHB as a priority, grab EE because it's free, and wait until you have some more spare money to get SCAG would be my suggestion (note that I never got hands on Volo's, so not sure how worth it is).

For Adventure's League Volo's as a player is only good for 3 things
1) The extended PC races: Aasimar, Firbolg, Goliath, Kenku, Lizardfolk, Tabaxi, Triton
2) Monster PC races: Bugbear, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Kobold, Orc, Yuan-Ti
3) Initial Druid Wildshape forms.

[Sir cryosin]

First of all pick up player hand book. That is the only book you need it has all the classes base chassis. Other then that think of a character you want to play then look into if you need to buy a book or if you can find it online or ask someone at the table if you can look at there book. But please At least buy the PHB.

[Ixidor92]

Realistically you can do all sorts of crazy nonsense with just the PH and the UA content available online. With how different 5e is from previous editions I think you'll find plenty to optimize with just in there.

[Oramac]

If you want a fun, highly optimized, AL-legal character, might I recommend my Tempest Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493427-Tempest-Sorcerer-Tank)? It's incredibly fun, good at control and blasting, hard to hit, and extremely mobile.

Other than that, your options for characters are in the PHB, SCAG, Volo's, and a little bit in EE.

Of the above, I would recommend PHB, SCAG, and Volo's.

But honestly, you only really NEED the PHB. The Tempest Sorcerer above is a PHB-only character.

[2D8HP]

PHB, SCAG, Volo's in that order.Nod for Greyview!

[GlenSmash!]

PHB, Xanathar's (probably), SCAG, Volo's would be my order.

[prototype00]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I'll go with the PhB and the SCAG for now, Volo's would be a bit of a drain on my finances. :smallbiggrin: I can pick up Xanathar when it is out in Nov.

[Anonymouswizard]

Optimization is not the end-all-be-all that it was in 3e, so don't focus on that. In general 5e is a much better system with just as much support for different concepts, just waay lighter in rules (because its designed tighter and less innanely). There's no need for ridiculous splatbook bloat, which keeps the game nice and accessible.

You're connecting different things there and implying a relationship between them. For the record the 5e Phb is ~290 pages of rules, I don't own the MM or DMG but assuming you count those as core rules you end up with nearly 600 pages of 'core rules' (I'm assuming the other two core books are significantly shorter).

Mongoose Traveller 1e is ~180 pages of core rules, which when put together are all you need for spacefaring adventure. It still has a lot of splat books, including generic spacepulp* (the Mongoose LBB supplements), Third Imperium, and 2300AD, which will sometimes repeat rules (2300AD actually expands on the High Guard reaction engine rules).

Rocket Age is a ~250 page corebook, of which the first 90 pages are fluff. It has enough crunch that even the character options sourcebook is primarily fluff.

So while 5e doesn't need splat bloat, neither did 3.X (which just needed a rebalanced corebook). 5e could probably do with a higher fluff book ratio though, just to please the people who prefer other D&D settings.

* Traveller is a weird system, with a bit of jiggery pokery it can do anything spacey, but it's optimised for a certain sort of post-Foundation science fiction.


Other than the PHB, SCAG is good, but bear in mind that Xanathar's Guide to Everything is coming in November and that will make lots of the UA stuff official.

Won't it also include most of the SCAG rules content.

[Millstone85]

Won't it also include most of the SCAG rules content.No more than four of the subclasses.

For cantrips and backgrounds, nothing is known.

[RazorChain]

You're connecting different things there and implying a relationship between them. For the record the 5e Phb is ~290 pages of rules, I don't own the MM or DMG but assuming you count those as core rules you end up with nearly 600 pages of 'core rules' (I'm assuming the other two core books are significantly shorter).

Mongoose Traveller 1e is ~180 pages of core rules, which when put together are all you need for spacefaring adventure. It still has a lot of splat books, including generic spacepulp* (the Mongoose LBB supplements), Third Imperium, and 2300AD, which will sometimes repeat rules (2300AD actually expands on the High Guard reaction engine rules).

Rocket Age is a ~250 page corebook, of which the first 90 pages are fluff. It has enough crunch that even the character options sourcebook is primarily fluff.

So while 5e doesn't need splat bloat, neither did 3.X (which just needed a rebalanced corebook). 5e could probably do with a higher fluff book ratio though, just to please the people who prefer other D&D settings.

* Traveller is a weird system, with a bit of jiggery pokery it can do anything spacey, but it's optimised for a certain sort of post-Foundation science fiction.


Don't you worry, WotC will make more rules and more classes and more races and soon 5e will allow all kinds of powerful builds!!

[Anonymouswizard]

Don't you worry, WotC will make more rules and more classes and more races and soon 5e will allow all kinds of powerful builds!!

Stop strawmanning, I wasn't actually asking for that.

Okay, I do ask for more classes sometimes, but that's because I want more classes that don't use magic.

But the kind of splatbooks I like can be pretty much split into two categories: equipment options and fluff. Oh, I also like new races, but that's because races are cool and can be thrown into any type of book. I actually think the best supplement for Traveller is the one that allows you to make more realistic ships, which will tend to underperform compared to standard ones (12 hours of thrust at 1g takes 30% of your ship, compared to about 0.5% for a week's thrust at 1g with standard ships). My recommendation for Rocket Age is Heroes of the Solar system for the expanded information on species. I love a well written worldbook, which might include some races but shouldn't include classes or significant rules changes.

Equipment option books aren't really relevant to 5e, all the stuff you are likely able to buy is in the PhB.

Anyway, my point was the complexity of a corebook has nothing to do with it's 'requirement' for splatbooks. Many people happily play core only 3.X, many people happily play Rules Cyclopedia, many people happily play GURPS with all the supplements (or at least a lot of them), many people happily play Fate Accelerated, and so on.

Heck, core 5e is one of the more complicated games on my shelf, it's about as complex as Rocket Age (although to me the latter is the better game). Traveller is actually simpler, as are lesser known games like Keltia. 5e has a massive overreliance on abilities to give characters competency, meaning at level twenty I'm having to remember what 30 different racial and class abilities do, compared to Traveller where I just have Attributes and Skills (and maybe psionic powers). Sure, it pales before GURPS, but there's a reason GURPS is in storage.

[RazorChain]

Stop strawmanning, I wasn't actually asking for that.

Okay, I do ask for more classes sometimes, but that's because I want more classes that don't use magic.

But the kind of splatbooks I like can be pretty much split into two categories: equipment options and fluff. Oh, I also like new races, but that's because races are cool and can be thrown into any type of book. I actually think the best supplement for Traveller is the one that allows you to make more realistic ships, which will tend to underperform compared to standard ones (12 hours of thrust at 1g takes 30% of your ship, compared to about 0.5% for a week's thrust at 1g with standard ships). My recommendation for Rocket Age is Heroes of the Solar system for the expanded information on species. I love a well written worldbook, which might include some races but shouldn't include classes or significant rules changes.

Equipment option books aren't really relevant to 5e, all the stuff you are likely able to buy is in the PhB.

Anyway, my point was the complexity of a corebook has nothing to do with it's 'requirement' for splatbooks. Many people happily play core only 3.X, many people happily play Rules Cyclopedia, many people happily play GURPS with all the supplements (or at least a lot of them), many people happily play Fate Accelerated, and so on.

Heck, core 5e is one of the more complicated games on my shelf, it's about as complex as Rocket Age (although to me the latter is the better game). Traveller is actually simpler, as are lesser known games like Keltia. 5e has a massive overreliance on abilities to give characters competency, meaning at level twenty I'm having to remember what 30 different racial and class abilities do, compared to Traveller where I just have Attributes and Skills (and maybe psionic powers). Sure, it pales before GURPS, but there's a reason GURPS is in storage.


My comment was actually meant as sarcasm :) The OP wants to optimize and wants more books. WotC has a tendency to add more races and classes that aren't entirely balanced and people try to glean them to squeeze the most out of their characters.

[Anonymouswizard]

My comment was actually meant as sarcasm :) The OP wants to optimize and wants more books. WotC has a tendency to add more races and classes that aren't entirely balanced and people try to glean them to squeeze the most out of their characters.

Sorry, I don't believe this forum has a standard procedure for sarcasm. You know, because it's easy to detect on the internet and in writing.

[prototype00]

Just had my first session today! (Adventurer's League)

Man, quarterstaff and shield, polearm master, dueling weapon style fighter really puts out the damage doesn't it!

prototype00

[Haldir]

You're connecting different things there and implying a relationship between them. For the record the 5e Phb is ~290 pages of rules, I don't own the MM or DMG but assuming you count those as core rules you end up with nearly 600 pages of 'core rules' (I'm assuming the other two core books are significantly shorter).

Mongoose Traveller 1e is ~180 pages of core rules, which when put together are all you need for spacefaring adventure. It still has a lot of splat books, including generic spacepulp* (the Mongoose LBB supplements), Third Imperium, and 2300AD, which will sometimes repeat rules (2300AD actually expands on the High Guard reaction engine rules).

Rocket Age is a ~250 page corebook, of which the first 90 pages are fluff. It has enough crunch that even the character options sourcebook is primarily fluff.

So while 5e doesn't need splat bloat, neither did 3.X (which just needed a rebalanced corebook). 5e could probably do with a higher fluff book ratio though, just to please the people who prefer other D&D settings.

* Traveller is a weird system, with a bit of jiggery pokery it can do anything spacey, but it's optimised for a certain sort of post-Foundation science fiction.



Won't it also include most of the SCAG rules content.

Trying to find a point here thats relevant to the context of the conversation of comparing D&D editions. Random little-known spacefaring systems somehow prove that 5e is not tigher and better designed than previous D&D editions?

I mean, you're not even really making a statement here anyway. Given that the Monster Manual and DMG are basically just fluff and treasure tables, (5e doesn't even really have rules for making magic items) and a huge portion of the PHB is spells, in terms of actual gameplay rules (as opposed to gameplay choices) 5e is probably comparable to whatever low-production star ship system you're discussing.

[Anonymouswizard]

Trying to find a point here thats relevant to the context of the conversation of comparing D&D editions. Random little-known spacefaring systems somehow prove that 5e is not tigher and better designed than previous D&D editions?

I mean, you're not even really making a statement here anyway. Given that the Monster Manual and DMG are basically just fluff and treasure tables, (5e doesn't even really have rules for making magic items) and a huge portion of the PHB is spells, in terms of actual gameplay rules (as opposed to gameplay choices) 5e is probably comparable to whatever low-production star ship system you're discussing.

I don't get what you were saying? My point (which I'm surprised you couldn't find) was 'need for splats' and 'amount of rules' aren't connected.

Also, Rocket Age has a long list of traits, which are the equivalent of spells in 'options you can pick from'. 5e's rules section is really weird, a good rules medium system will reduce page count by giving flexible and easy to explain rules, 5e does it by not giving you rules at all :smalltongue:

I mean, Rocket Age doesn't even have rules for making items! Neither does Traveller, or World of Darkness (bar Mage). It's not exactly a rare situation.

Also, what do you mean by 'low-production star ship system'? Traveller is one of the first Space Opera games ever, and Rocket Age is attempting to grab a specific genre of science fiction, and neither are exactly unknown (although you likely won't know much about RA unless you have a passing interest in 1930s sci-fi). If you aren't interested in science fiction gaming that's fine, but don't insult one of the better known science fiction systems (Traveller) by calling it 'low-production'. Might as well call anything bar D&D low production.

Heck, if you want accessible 5e does it completely wrong, why do we need three books? I can play Traveller from one (I don't want to, but you can). I can play Rocket Age from one book. I can play Keltia from one book. I can play Victoriana from one book. I can play Shadowrun from one book. I can play Savage Worlds from one book. Likely the only reason 5e can get away with 'three core books' is because it's D&D, and three books is always less approachable than one.

Again, I am not saying 5e needs splat books. I'm saying it's need or lack thereof has nothing to do with simplicity, heck 5e's simplicity could be an argument for a greater need than a complex system (which could have literally all you need in the core book).