Defenders: The verdict

[paddyfool]

So, I've binged the first five and a bit episodes. Overall verdict is that it seems to hang together pretty well, with a few minor plot holes of the "how did that character get there all of a sudden" variety. Some small issues, though:


It's kind of a pity so much of the plot centres on about the weakest character of the four.

The significance of the "Black Sky" to the Hand still isn't fleshed out at all. Surely Electra must be something more than simply a good ninja.

The antagonists would be much less of a believable threat if the heroes even halfway had their act together. In particular, the bit where Danny winds up fighting all the others...

[GloatingSwine]

It's OK. Not the strongest of the Netflix series, not the weakest.

The heroes interacting is good, the fight scenes are pretty good, the villains are rubbish. They're the same rubbish Hand they've been since Daredevil season 2 and hopefully this is the last we'll see of them for a long time.

Hopefully Misty Knight can get her robot arm now for Daughters of the Dragon.

[Rynjin]

Haven't had a chance to watch it yet, but it being about the Hand AGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN almost saps my interest to watch it.

Is Iron Fist better in this one? I have the new Power Man/Iron Fist books to keep my fun banter levels topped off in prep for him not being, but it'd help if he was.

[paddyfool]

Iron Fist... no, not really much better, based on my more-than-halfway point viewing anyway. Neither are the Hand, sadly. Even the best of them (Madame Gao) is mostly below her best.

[Olinser]

Haven't had a chance to watch it yet, but it being about the Hand AGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN almost saps my interest to watch it.

Is Iron Fist better in this one? I have the new Power Man/Iron Fist books to keep my fun banter levels topped off in prep for him not being, but it'd help if he was.

I mean they basically progressively wrote themselves into a corner by using the Hand in almost all the individual series so they were forced to use them as the excuse for the team-up.

The problem they have is that with the crew they've assembled they have a very tough time actually fighting anything more than mild superpowered villains - so the Hand is already kind of the upper limit of what they can fight without power-ups.

[t209]

Ummm, I think the title should be "Avengers: Based on Bendis' Mighty Avengers Run".

[Murmaider]

Danny has some hilarious lines in this, that made me laugh out loud. Of course, none of them were intentionally funny, but hey, it's still entertaining.

There's shoddy editing, terrible character vanishing(not from the plot, just from the scene), the Hand becomes more boring the more I hear about it and I still don't care about any of the supporting cast, except for Stick.

I rate this one, two Luke Cages and half a Daredevil out of Jessica Jones.

[afroakuma]

Alright, well, binged this so I could write a big ol' review, which is right over here (http://themerlinfiles.com/small-screen-series-the-defenders) if anyone would like to read it.

Tl;dr, though? Second-weakest series of the bunch. Consistently terrible and clichéd writing redeemed by the fun of seeing characters come together and some spirited action in the first half of the series, then run into the dirt because of abysmal villains and foolish narrative decisions in the back half. In particular:

Way to oversell a Black Sky, folks. What a joke. Oh no she's a mildly superpowered Hand ninja what are we going to do besides punch her a whole lot.

[Rynjin]

The problem they have is that with the crew they've assembled they have a very tough time actually fighting anything more than mild superpowered villains - so the Hand is already kind of the upper limit of what they can fight without power-ups.

I don't buy that. Cage ran his own Avengers team for a while. A team that included Iron Fist, Jessica Jones (though she stayed with their baby half the time) and Daredevil. It was good (when it wasn't getting roped into the "epic" crossover of the week).

They are just using actively neutered versions of the characters...which is still fine. The old 70s Power Man/Iron Fist (where Cage could lift a car with effort and the Iron Fist was essentially a once per day power) was mostly street level stuff and still managed a huge variety of villains and threats that were entertaining.

The Netflix crew has just gotten lazy.

[Kid Jake]

I keep getting distracted by how absolutely terrible Iron Fist still is. I was hoping they'd tone down his whiny, entitled douchebaggery but I'm pretty sure I've bruised my eyes from rolling them damn near every time he had a line.

Although I will say one thing for Danny Rand: during his fight with Elektra he absolutely convinced me that he could get his ass kicked by a 90lb woman.

[Beeliever]

I keep getting distracted by how absolutely terrible Iron Fist still is. I was hoping they'd tone down his whiny, entitled douchebaggery but I'm pretty sure I've bruised my eyes from rolling them damn near every time he had a line.

Although I will say one thing for Danny Rand: during his fight with Elektra he absolutely convinced me that he could get his ass kicked by a 90lb woman.

Didn't he basically leave K'un Lun right after he got the Fist? As far as I can tell, he never actually got any training with the Fist. I'm hoping this is rectified in Season 2 of Iron Fist (which isn't going to have the same director), since using it solely as super punch is really lame. Especially after what the Immortal Iron Fist comics give us.

[Kid Jake]

Didn't he basically leave K'un Lun right after he got the Fist? As far as I can tell, he never actually got any training with the Fist. I'm hoping this is rectified in Season 2 of Iron Fist (which isn't going to have the same director), since using it solely as super punch is really lame. Especially after what the Immortal Iron Fist comics give us.

He was supposed to have been a highly accomplished martial artist capable of punching a dragon in the heart just for the chance to get the fist in the first place, but his fight scenes still look they're choreographed by a senior's pilates instructor. I kind of want to see a recut of the Defenders where somebody just replaces all of live action Danny's parts with various superimposed cartoon versions. I'm pretty sure it would come across as way more natural and likable.

[Rynjin]

It's almost like they cast a guy with zero martial arts training or something

Because what could go wrong with casting a skinny uncoordinated pleb to play a guy whose main super power is "Does the fighting good"

Nothing

Nothing at all

[GloatingSwine]

Look it's not their fault the main TV casting method these days is "hang around the Game of Thrones set with nets and use whatever actors you can catch".

[Dragonexx]

Just saw it. Loved it. Danny was better. Luke was cool. Jessica was pretty funny. Kinda disappointed Daredevil wasn't actually dead.

Luke and Danny's banter was entertaining. The fights scenes were better choreographed.

Also, it's late. Probably go more indepth tomorrow.

[Swaoeaeieu]

i didnt hate it (binged the whole thing yesterday) but it also didnt feel like a great superheroes-come-together story.

Also a real shame that literaly all the jokes in the 8 episodes were in the trailers allready.

[GloatingSwine]

i didnt hate it (binged the whole thing yesterday) but it also didnt feel like a great superheroes-come-together story.


It's all because of the villains.

It's sort of a consequence of using the Hand. The Hand have been around so long in the comics without ever really being tied to a specific hero or set of heroes, so they've been wedged into so many different shaped holes depending on whether Daredevil or Wolverine or whoever needs to be fighting them this week that it's really hard to pin down what they want. (Though they're nothing to do with K'un-L'un in the comics, at all, and Iron Fist has had little to nothing to do with them, yet more of throwing the actual Iron Fist under the bus.)

They sort of gave them something to want in Defenders, but because they were so vague otherwise beyond "shady badmans with lots of political clout but no visible consequences" they had to invent some consequences orthogonal to the villain's actual desires to make it worth the heroes opposing (apparently Manhattan Island will just fall into a hole if you dig up some not particularly load bearing looking Stuff, because of reasons?).

This is exacerbated by Elektra stabbing up Alexandra, because Alexandra has an actual reason to want immortality granting powdered dragon bone, she's gotten used to immortality and power and is currently dying and is unlikely to be revived by her nominal allies if they get the Stuff without her because none of them like each other.

Elektra doesn't really have strong reasons except she really likes Matt and wants to be immortal with him because being dead sucked I guess?

[Beeliever]

He was supposed to have been a highly accomplished martial artist capable of punching a dragon in the heart just for the chance to get the fist in the first place, but his fight scenes still look they're choreographed by a senior's pilates instructor. I kind of want to see a recut of the Defenders where somebody just replaces all of live action Danny's parts with various superimposed cartoon versions. I'm pretty sure it would come across as way more natural and likable.

Not just punch the dragon, mind you. The scar on his chest comes from hugging Shao Lao where the dragon's heart used to be. That's not supposed to be an easy feat, either. I agree completely that they need to choreograph his fight scenes a lot better - or use a stuntman - since he's supposed to be undoubtedly the best martial artist on the team.

At the very least, though, we do get a hint that the Fist can be used for more than just AoE punch effects/super punch. Hopefully Season 2 of Iron Fist expands on that, but I don't know if I can expect that.

It really shouldn't be hard to handle a guy who's powers are "fight good" and "glowy super fist". But nope, somehow the people who direct these damn things can't.

[Murmaider]

That last episode was terrible. On the flipside, IF is no longer the dumbest acting character on the show.


Seriously, **** DD for that stunt he pulled. "He loved this city so much that he gave his life for it". What a load of bull. Instead of continuing to protect his city as a superhero, he just embraces death to be with one of his true loves. How brave.
And then he lives anyway. WTF was even the point?!

Some other dumb stuff, that goes unanswered in the last episode:

Did the Hand always destroy cities because there were dragon bones underneath? Why are there dragon bones underneath cities? Why were those bones underneath New York sealed away and everywhere else they weren't? Did the hand have to dig 30 stories deep under Pompeii as well? 2000 years ago? How?

Is JJ stronger than LC? He seems impressed when she holds the elevator, but usually when any feats of strength are required, it's always LC doing them. JJ couldn't even break out of her handcuffs, assuming she wanted to.

Why did Bokudo(Bakudo, Bokuto, Bukutu?) turn on the timer on the bomb? Was it by accident? How do you activate a timebomb by accident?

[GloatingSwine]

That last episode was terrible. On the flipside, IF is no longer the dumbest acting character on the show.


Seriously, **** DD for that stunt he pulled. "He loved this city so much that he gave his life for it". What a load of bull. Instead of continuing to protect his city as a superhero, he just embraces death to be with one of his true loves. How brave.
And then he lives anyway. WTF was even the point?!



Whilst it was basically rendered pointless by immediately showing him alive not even waiting for the, IIRC, already confirmed Daredevil S3, Matt in the TV shows has been a martyr looking for a cause to die for for a while. So whilst it wasn't necessarily as productive as the show treats it, it's in character.

Whether Jessica or Luke is stronger is up in the air, Luke gets more opportunities to use his strength though because being unbreakable he can hit things harder without damaging himself. Whereas we don't see him doing things like jumping into fifth story windows. (In the comics IIRC Jessica can actually fly but mostly doesn't).

[FreddyNoNose]

Only watched the first two episodes and so far its enjoyable.

[Starbuck_II]

He was supposed to have been a highly accomplished martial artist capable of punching a dragon in the heart just for the chance to get the fist in the first place, but his fight scenes still look they're choreographed by a senior's pilates instructor. I kind of want to see a recut of the Defenders where somebody just replaces all of live action Danny's parts with various superimposed cartoon versions. I'm pretty sure it would come across as way more natural and likable.


Umm, that isn't how you beat a dragon...

Even in the comics, you don't punch the dragon, you hug its heart till it dies of asxpiration. No, seriously, that was how comic Danny did it.

[Rynjin]

He may be confusing the actual killing of the dragon with the part where the Iron Fist then dips their hands in the molten lava-like core of the dragon to get the power.

The Iron Fists are pretty metal.

[afroakuma]

The Iron Fists are pretty metal.

With one extremely stupid exception, apparently. :smalltongue:


♫ I... am... I-ron Fist! Neener neener neener you don't exist!

[Waker]

Overall I liked the show, but it had many flaws that stood out for me.

1.First off is the introduction for Jessica into the plot, the architect. His whole reason for going all unabomber was because while planning the building, he came across evidence of the secret below. How did he know it was bad? And when his wife went to hire Jessica, how did he know? And time it so well as to call her immediately after? Where did he get all that C4? How did The Hand know he was gonna be at Jessica's place when they sent Black Sky?
2. The Substance. Wow did they overuse that word. I know they were trying to be coy and avoid just spoiling it by saying Dragon Bone, but even so. Also if they were running so low on "substance", why did they waste it on Meachum 10 years ago when he was dying? I know that getting more access to Rand was important, but important enough to use up your dwindling supply of immortality powder? Did they really use up that much of it over the past few years in contrast for having been saving it for centuries.
I've got more to add, but I gotta get ready for work. I'll finish my griping later.

Ok, I'm back for more complaining.

3. Security. You'd think that as an ancient organization comprised of criminals and assassins, that The Hand would understand the value of good security. Instead their main base doesn't even have a rent-a-cop there. Midland is both their base and access to their ancient dragon graveyard, yet Jessica, Matthew, and Luke all waltz in without so much as a secretary asking if they have an appointment. And later when rescuing Iron Fist, they have to be stopped by The Hand themselves with no mooks for backup.
4. Writing. I won't get too exhaustive with it, but there were a handful of cringe-worthy lines. When finding the Chaste hideout, Colleen makes the comment that swords wouldn't be sharpened unless they were going to be used...Yeah, the reason you came here was because this guy might know something about The Hand. This isn't a store for a wall-hanger katana. Or when Alexandra is eating at the Turkish restaurant and comments to the owner that his wife makes it better than they did at Constantinople. He then corrects her and says its actually Istanbul. I mean, wow is this a stupid exchange. First off, I sincerely doubt she forgot that a city changed its name half a millennia ago. It really just made her sound like some annoying hipster. Then the owner correcting her just seemed really unnecessary. Like the name change happened recently and she might not have been aware of it.
5. Stick. Ok, so Stick got captured early on and as part of his escape his cut off his own hand. Setting aside the difficulties of cutting your own hand off in a single swipe while handcuffed, how did he manage to get away? He's a kung-fu master, but still an elderly man who probably didn't have the time to tourniquet himself and outrun a bunch of trained killers? And then the lazy attempts to conceal his hand was just jarring. During the scene in the restaurant, at one point you have a backshot of Stick walking to Murdock and you can clearly see his amputated right hand is longer than his uninjured left arm.
6. The Ending. How in the hell did they not get arrested and locked up forever? The heroes escaped from police headquarters by kool-aid manning through the wall, stole pounds of C4, blew up a skyscraper and are possibly responsible for the disappearance of Matthew Murdock. Remember the police don't know he's Daredevil. All they know is he vanished on the same night that they all escaped and immediately blew up a building. Even if they say "The Hand owned the building" that does nothing to nullify all the damage that would be done to the surrounding area. The Avengers got away with it because "Holy crap, aliens!", The Defenders wouldn't be so lucky.

I feel a little better.

[random11]

It was good.
Not great, but good and enjoyable.

I think the biggest mistake was using "The Hand" as the villain.
I understand it's an established villain in two of the previous shows, but that works against the show.

You don't have to see any of the previous shows to understand the hero characters. It takes just a few minutes to show the power, goals and personality of each one of them.
But when it came to the villains, I kept feeling I failed a test and that I was being punished for not remembering things that happened in Iron Fist of Dare Devil.
"Don't remember who that character was? Bummer for you, because we're just going to stick him in there and assume you know"

In addition to that, I feel that all the heroes from the defenders shine more when they face lower scaled enemies.
We already HAVE Iron-Man, Thor and other super heroes, these heroes are much better facing problems that are too big to the police but too local for the "big guns", allowing them to be the heroes for the common people.


As for more specific problems, I'll use spoilers:

- In episode 6 there is the part when they fight each other and decide to tie Iron Fist to prevent him from risking himself.
That part felt very contrived, as if someone said "well, this is the part when they are supposed to disagree"

- Last episode reminded me of Batman V Superman movie. We all know they won't kill DD in the first season of the defenders, I wouldn't mind too much, but they wasted about third of the episode for this fake-out, and it's not like it really contributed anything.


Anyway, all things considered it was still good, and much better than most superheroes we currently have on TV.
But it still has potential to be much better, and I hope it will.

[Red Fel]

Okay, having watched the whole thing through, my thoughts. Major spoilers in the spoilers.

First of all, the use of color filters. I absolutely loved that each scene was color-coded to the heroes - red for DD, blue for JJ, yellow for LC, and green for Danny-Danny Ding-Dong. Oh, and white for Alexandra. Even the scene transitions used color to effectively communicate where we were going. It was a subtle but really enjoyable touch. Further, the colors were character-appropriate - JJ's solo scenes were morose, noir, and gritty; Cage's scenes were bright, optimistic, and sunny, if a bit campy.

On a related note, musical nods. I know I'm not the only one who noticed notes of DD's theme when he showed up in his suit. (Took him long enough.) The musical nods to the individual series were both appropriate and enjoyable.

Also appropriate, the characters and story beats. Frequently, a character becomes uncharacteristic in a team-up, and generally that wasn't the case here. Cage's solo storyline was so utterly Luke Cage, very loyal to the tone of his solo show, and his attitude during the team-up - affable, pragmatic, moral and grounded - was so utterly him. Likewise, Jessica's conflict avoidance, her constant exasperation, her barely-concealed desire to help buried beneath a carefully rehearsed sense of apathy, really rang true with the character. As for Danny and Matt, well, see the next spoiler section.

Specific things I enjoyed included Jessica's return in Royal Dragon, via truck applied liberally to wall. That was one of (admittedly few) laugh-out-loud moments for me. This series was not particularly light, but that gave me a laugh. Also, Sigourney Weaver's performance was amazing. Admittedly, one we've seen many times before in these shows (Kingpin, Mariah, Gao, the list goes on) but still glorious.


Alternative title: What the Crap?

First off, Matt was true to character, which is so blasted frustrating. As satisfying as it was to see Jessica and Luke be themselves, in their own stories, despite being in a team-up, Matt being himself was so annoying. I thought we were done with this crap, Mattie. The self-sacrificing martyr crap. The "I have to go this alone" crap. The "I can't tell you the truth because it puts you in danger" crap. I thought we were done with this.

And then there's the Fist. He alternated between perfectly in-character Danny - whiny rich brat who thinks he's the single most important thing in the world and has to go it all alone - to suddenly so into this idea of a team you guys - to right back to in-character lone wolf crap. He's annoying when he's acting according to character, but still frustrating when he's out of it.

Now, let's talk about some plot issues. First, what exactly was the Hand's motivation? From how Gao described it, they wanted to get back to K'un-Lun. But they clearly did that, seeing as Danny found a bunch of dead monks when he was last there. Okay, so apparently they just need more of the Substance. But why would Alexandra, nearing death, waste the Substance on a Black Sky instead of herself? Help yourself, then get more Substance - there's plenty of time. Also, if they were all roughly the same age, why was Alexandra seemingly more decrepit than the rest of them? Also, what did it matter if any of them died before they secured more Substance - couldn't they just save the corpse, get the stuff, and revive, as per usual?

Additional note: If Iron Fist's solo series taught us anything about the Hand's resurrection techniques, it's that someone revived with the Substance (1) is not quite themselves, and becomes progressively more monstrous with each revival, and (2) is functionally unkillable, as they will self-revive every time, unless the head is removed. Is that why we saw people decapitating the corpses each time? And if so, and this really bothered me, why did the Chaste never do this before? Seriously, it sounds like they've all been captured at some point or other - why did the Chaste not decapitate them then? Stick has proven incredibly kill-happy, and it's safe to assume he's not unique in that regard; why does the Chaste take people prisoner instead of executing them via decapitation?

Also also, if (as IF taught us) they become more monstrous each time they revive, shouldn't the Fingers be completely insane by now?

Back on point, I'd say Danny's story beats were probably the most annoying for me. The last thing this series needed was to make Danny the most important thing, and that's exactly what they did. Oh, sure, everyone freaked out about The Devil of Hell's Kitchen is back!, but let's be honest, they should have been terrified about Luke Cage, a man who shrugged off being hit by a speeding truck. And Jessica Jones, who tossed a truck through a wall. These should have frightened them, but instead it was Matt and Danny. And Danny was, of course, the key to everything, which was just so confounded annoying.

Danny's most frustrating character trait is being convinced that, as the Immortal Iron Fist, he is singularly responsible and capable and the most important thing there is. Seeing Luke talk him down about privilege gave me a big grin; Luke was all of us in that moment. And then the story goes and confirms Danny's delusions, the last thing anyone needed.

And then, and then, it takes we get it already he's Catholic Matt and gives him the most seriously we get it he's Catholic martyr moment, the very thing he's supposed to be getting past. You can't get much more anvil-icious than "He died to save us all," here. And then with that cop-out ending?

I call bull on Matt's ending. I call complete crap. There is no way, no freaking way, short of teleportation. He was hundreds of feet below the ground beneath a collapsing and exploding building, with no elevator and no exit tunnels. No freaking way. Such a cop-out it's not even funny.

Also crap? The Hand talking to Danny about K'un-Lun. (Was that Gao? I think it was Gao.) "You killed them all." "You only saw what you wanted to see." Total crap, he saw a bunch of dead fricking monks. That's not exactly allegorical. They're all dead. Enough of the pseudo-koan crap between Iron Fist and the Hand. I get that it's his whole character concept, but if you can't do it right, don't do it at all.

I get that they were teasing some comradery between IF and LC, because comics, but that chemistry was entirely one-sided. Mike Colter is magnificent and charming and has perfect teeth, and Finn Jones plays a whiny little twit; the only reason they were able to pal around is that Luke is willing to put up with just about anyone's crap.

Final note: How in the Nine did that all just go away? "NYPD didn't file a report, so the DA couldn't press charges." Total, total crap. A freaking building collapsed. C4 was stolen from police storage, three persons of interest burst out of the wall of police HQ, FBI and bomb squad was called in, and nobody filed a report?

I can just imagine how that went down. "You smashed through a wall at HQ, abducted a lawyer, stole dangerous explosives, and blew up a building, necessitating an evacuation of the entire block." "Yes, but we were fighting immortal evil ninja who wanted to feast upon the bones of monsters." "Do you have any evidence?" "Nope. Also, the guy we abducted - whom we totally didn't - can't corroborate our story, because of that exploded building on top of him." "Well, that checks out, nothing to see here I guess." Are you totally kidding me?


Okay, now that my blood pressure is back down, where does that leave us?

Jessica is back in business, as this series has conveniently allowed her to get over the craving for isolation that drove her into closing up shop. What perfect set-up for a new season!

Luke is back in Harlem, clearly ready to go back to war with Mariah and Shades (conveniently absent from this series). Also, Misty is several pounds lighter. Anybody notice that the arm that she lost is the same arm she almost lost during Luke's solo series? Anyhow, fans of the comics knew this would probably happen eventually. Still holding out for Daughters of the Dragon.

Danny is... Ugh. And Colleen is still... Ugh. That girl has such issues, she needs to do some self-care and realize she can do better than billionaire privilege-boy.

And Matt is apparently Jesus-ing it up in some kind of monastic hospital. Like you do.

So, in all likelihood, Jessica and Luke will go back to the exact same story beats they've had in their next seasons. Danny will probably have to find a new antagonist to angst and feel self-important about. (Maybe Gao? If Matt survived, Elektra probably did, and maybe Gao too.) And Matt... ugh... is probably going to go through the exact same retirement-conflict-unretirement cycle he goes through again and again.

The Hand is basically toast. If Alexandra handled their influence-peddling, then they're basically neutered now. Just a bunch of drug-dealing ninja. That kind of ruins them as antagonists, and while I wouldn't have minded them in the future, I was definitely getting tired of their overuse in the present.

Final thoughts: Was it bad? No. Despite the flaws - and on reflection, there were a lot of them, a number of which I did not bother to list - it was pretty gripping. Characterization was good. The pacing was slow in parts, but it made up for it by being compelling.

I give it, somewhat reluctantly, a 4 (or high 3.5) out of 5.

[Waker]

Though I vented earlier, I still feel the need to purge a bit more.

Sowande- During the attack on the restaurant, Sowande shows off his skill by manhandling Luke Cage without too much effort. Then after Cage is hit by a truck, we don't see him again until Cage comes back with Sowande trussed up in a van. Wait, how did Cage manage that and they did it off-screen? Not to mention his whole spooky story about being held prisoner during a siege, ending on his captors begging for mercy. What? Were they trying to imply he was doing some mystic nonsense? And why wouldn't the Chaste execute him?
New York- Remember how Jessica found the records going back to 1820s all had the same handwriting? How is it that the Hand has had a presence in New York for 200 years and they are only just now digging up that dragon graveyard?

Hopefully in the future we'll see The Hand replaced by a better villain like the Kingpin. In DC and Marvel, I've just never had any interest in the myriad ancient crime/assassin groups.

[Rynjin]

Pulling from Iron Fist's catalogue of villains wouldn't be a bad match there. Everybody has a good set but pulling from the insane assortment of random magical bull**** Iron Fist faces would make for a much needed breath of silly fresh air for the series' collectively.

Give me the Hlythri or that one wizard he used to fight as a big bad. Ohh, or something like the Return of K'un L'un plot where K'un L'un started merging with our reality.

A big threat, but something small scale enough that the Avengers don't need to get involved.

Or ****, I'd settle for El Aguila as a rival vigilante for half a season or something. Even if he is technically a mutant, they could work around that.

More Kingpin is cool too, and maybe Bushwhacker 2.0 with the snake arms from Luke Cage's side.

[Lord Ruby34]

In response to Red Fel's comments, something I think the show was implying.
Kun'lan is not destroyed, but Danny was exiled and now all he can see when he goes back there is his fears. I think Gao is implying this, and it's moderately corroborated by a pictuer in one of the Finger scenes where they have this old ink drawing of a burnt down Kun'lan. Just my impression from the show, but it allayed my concerns about Gao and Danny's conversations.

[Dragonexx]

The whole thing was kinda a cringy mixed bag for me. It sounds like it's about white privelage, but it's not. Though it is kinda ignorant. Regardless of choreography failures, in-universe, Danny is supposed to be a great martial artist who got where he is purely on hard work, training, and merit (kinda a pity that showing more of Kun-lun is out of the budget it seems, or that could have been included). On the money thing, Danny didn't really even care about the money. Throughout his series, he seriously acts like someone who doesn't understand the value or effect of money. Reclaiming his inheritance was more about attempting to reconnect with his family and being able to use his goddamn name, considering he turned down an offer of millions of dollars when the stipulation was that he change his name. Then there's the whole high class meal in the dojo. Also when he's barefoot, a guy offers to get him some shoes, which he turns down. Overall, it seems like he doesn't understand how what he does and how he looks makes others perceive him (walking into the Rand building looking like a hobo for one).

The one thing Cage has a point about was that it wasn't as black and what (no pun intended) as he initially thought it was, like when he claimed that the guys who was hired to clean up the hands crime scenes were evil, and was told that it was that, or starve.

Hopefully Iron Fist season 2 has better budget and production times, to fix these issues (and I want to actually see more than a few ****ing seconds of Danny's training!).

Now why did they have to go and do that? The ending was good, with a little bait and switch, where you think it's Matt, but it's actually Danny.

Then surprise, Matt's shown alive. Couldn't that have waited until Daredevil S3?

Also, it looks like were getting the Punisher next.

[Slylizard]

On the last few scenes of the ending:
I'm fairly certain that DD is in Kun Lun. I believe that the tunnels of dragon bone lead back to the eternal dragon's cave, and that they're actually his corpses as defeated by generations of Iron Fist. They needed the Iron Fist to break the 'door' to the tunnel down to the dragon bones, similar to him being the defender of the actual doorway, he's the key to the back door(s).

At least, that's how I see it.

[afroakuma]

On the last few scenes of the ending:

He's not, though; he wakes up next to a nun and they call for "Maggie." Fairly certain there's also a cross kicking about. Wherever he is,
it's not K'un Lun. K'un Lun wouldn't make sense in any event, as it would force DD Season 3 to address his time spent in a mystical nonsense land.

[Red Fel]

In response to Red Fel's comments, something I think the show was implying.
Kun'lan is not destroyed, but Danny was exiled and now all he can see when he goes back there is his fears. I think Gao is implying this, and it's moderately corroborated by a pictuer in one of the Finger scenes where they have this old ink drawing of a burnt down Kun'lan. Just my impression from the show, but it allayed my concerns about Gao and Danny's conversations.

I don't think that works, though.

Okay, so there are two reasons why that doesn't sit right with me.

First: Danny wasn't exiled. He left. In fact, Davos (who is clearly not in this series because he went back to work for Jon Snow in Westeros) specifically left K'un-L'un to bring Danny back. Further: Why would K'un-L'un ever exile the Immortal Weapon specifically trained to defend them from the Hand?

Which leads to the second point: If a person (e.g. Danny) could be exiled in absentia, and thus be prevented from ever entering the "true" K'un-L'un, why would they even need an Iron Fist? If the only threat to K'un-L'un is the Hand, why not simply "exile" all of them? Boom, now nobody sworn to the Hand can ever enter K'un-L'un, and the whole place is safe.

See what I mean? Doesn't work.


On the last few scenes of the ending:
I'm fairly certain that DD is in Kun Lun. I believe that the tunnels of dragon bone lead back to the eternal dragon's cave, and that they're actually his corpses as defeated by generations of Iron Fist. They needed the Iron Fist to break the 'door' to the tunnel down to the dragon bones, similar to him being the defender of the actual doorway, he's the key to the back door(s).

At least, that's how I see it.

I'm not so sure.

That nurse at the end? She was wearing some kind of wimple. Traditionally, that's worn by Western (i.e. Christian) nuns. K'un-L'un was depicted as stereotypically Asian, possibly Buddhist. To my knowledge, Buddhist nuns don't wear headdresses. Also, the show depicted the monastery as being primarily (or exclusively) male. So it seems unlikely that Matt is in a monastic hospital in K'un-L'un.

Also, if he did go to K'un-L'un, he'd basically be trapped there, right? I mean, the gateway would close. Unless the one he found is somehow permanently open.

Also, if he trained in K'un-L'un, he'd be even more better than Danny than he already is. I mean, except for the actual Fist, DD has pretty much consistently out-performed IF in combat. Heck, he was able to solo Electra. He was able to fight off two Fingers while Luke and Jessica fought one. He's a better fighter than the Immortal Weapon, is the point, and him training in K'un-L'un would just be excessive.

EDIT:

All the details I picked up, and I missed the name "Maggie." Man, I feel embarrassed.

The name should be familiar to fans of the comics.
That's because Maggie is a nun that Matt Murdock has run into on multiple occasions.

Before she took her vows, though, her name was Maggie Murdock. She married a certain boxer, and then left him after their son was born.

So, yeah. More allegories incoming.

[Pex]

It was superduperawesomesticfreakingadelicious.

Just like with D&D I once again find myself on the opposite side of the so called majority Forum All Truth. I enjoyed all of it. I liked all the heroes. I'm glad the Hand story is concluded.

Whiny Iron Fist, Martyr Daredevil, Stupid Hand - Sorry, didn't hear that over all the cheering I was doing.

[SuperPanda]

So I agree with pretty much all of Red Fel's points still my own thoughts.


Pretty much all of Jessica and Luke's story beats were wonderful. About the only part of Luke's story that got me frustrated was him trying to keep Misty out of things - and even that was mild compared to what Matt was doing. Only part of Jessica's story which really bugged me was how small it was - She felt tacked on for a lot of the stuff going on which was a shame because I loved her interactions with the others. She just felt awfully under used.

Mostly I'd be echoing Fel in for more stuff.

I do differ in that I love Colleen's arch. I do think she's a far more interesting character than Danny but the actress nailed the performance at each step. The only problem I have with her arc is the writing and characterization of Iron Fist himself. Everything focused on Colleen has been A+ so far and I was glad to see her finally stop letting the Defenders treat her as a sidekick. I'm a bit worried that her plot line got so neatly wrapped up though, I hope she doesn't just vanish into the background.

I don't know how the Hand works in the comics and don't really care that much. I think they needed a few extra episodes using the fingers of the hand to draw in our heroes - particularly Luke and Jessica. Danny and Matt already have wonderful connections because this was basically season 2 of Iron Fist and season 2.5 of Daredevil already.

Jessica gets her "don't take the case" call and has her run in with Elektra- but she doesn't get much of an "its personal" arch till she finds out the Hand is threatening her "client" later on. Have people working for the fingers of the Hand offer to buy her off - because they clearly don't have any idea who she is - and have that piss her off enough to be invested in things. Have Luke's issues with "white hat" develope a bit more... I think what I'm saying is that I wanted another 2 or 3 episodes on the front end building towards things.

While I loved Sigourney Weaver's performance, I think her story beats could have been done better by Gao. Alexandria was a compelling and interesting character but never felt like the credible threat she was suppose to be. Even within the Hand - where she appears to rule to a degree through fear - she never seemed to earn her position. About the only leader of the Hand I've ever bought as a threat has been Gao and that is somewhat dimished watching her fight and seeing to being some basic telekinesis. I wanted to see Gao go full on mystic mojo and do things like walk up to Cage and cut his skin with her fingernails - Because if she hadn't attacked yet Luke Cage would not punch an old lady without reason. I was frustrated in IF when Bakudo appeared to diminish Gao because she'd been awesome on screen - so this is pretty much more of the same there.

It was not quite as fun as I was hoping but it was plenty fun. It focused far far more on Matt and Danny than on Luke or JJ. I noticed that Luke seemed to bond with Danny and reconnect with Jessica, but never really seemed to connect to Matt and Jessica did the opposite. I think this works for JJ since I don't think her stories would work as well if she had a Billionaire best bud offering to help pay rent while going forward Luke having a friend who could spot him some cash while he acts as a Hero for Hire works just fine.

[BWR]

It was almost OK.

A lot of little gripes which I don't have time to go into (maybe later) but the major issue is that the Hand always felt kind of useless and impotent, for all their obvious power in the shows, and this show did nothing to dispel that. IF is a self-important wuss, and kind of useless and pointless. Cage was the only character I really liked, in line with the solo shows, and for all the talk of legal repercussions, everyone gets off scott free. No explanation, no excuses, no attempt to clear things up or obstruct justice or anything, just a line that everything is fine.

The good bits are that they did tie everyone together rather neatly (the only good thing about the Hand), some of the fight scenes weren't too bad (the ones without Danny) and Cage is just a likeable guy.

[Sapphire Guard]

From how Gao described it, they wanted to get back to K'un-Lun. But they clearly did that, seeing as Danny found a bunch of dead monks when he was last there.

Those were not dead monks, they were dead Hand ninjas. So they did attack when the iron fist wasn't there, but the city held out even without him, although they probably took more casualties. So now the portal is closed again, and the Hand focus shifts to getting more substance.


But why would Alexandra, nearing death, waste the Substance on a Black Sky instead of herself? Help yourself, then get more Substance - there's plenty of time. Also, if they were all roughly the same age, why was Alexandra seemingly more decrepit than the rest of them? Also, what did it matter if any of them died before they secured more Substance - couldn't they just save the corpse, get the stuff, and revive, as per usual?

She happened to discover a terminal illness after reviving Elektra? Just bad luck. They could save the corpses, but that requires a lot of trust in your allies.


And if so, and this really bothered me, why did the Chaste never do this before? Seriously, it sounds like they've all been captured at some point or other - why did the Chaste not decapitate them then? Stick has proven incredibly kill-happy, and it's safe to assume he's not unique in that regard; why does the Chaste take people prisoner instead of executing them via decapitation?

Who says they don't? But it took a while to figure out that decapitation worked.


4. Writing. I won't get too exhaustive with it, but there were a handful of cringe-worthy lines. When finding the Chaste hideout, Colleen makes the comment that swords wouldn't be sharpened unless they were going to be used...Yeah, the reason you came here was because this guy might know something about The Hand. This isn't a store for a wall-hanger katana.

It's an antique, there's ten of them in the world. You don't sharpen that one for any ordinary fight, you use a cheap one. So it's an indication that they're not fighting any ordinary war.


Security. You'd think that as an ancient organization comprised of criminals and assassins, that The Hand would understand the value of good security. Instead their main base doesn't even have a rent-a-cop there. Midland is both their base and access to their ancient dragon graveyard, yet Jessica, Matthew, and Luke all waltz in without so much as a secretary asking if they have an appointment. And later when rescuing Iron Fist, they have to be stopped by The Hand themselves with no mooks for backup.

The security were all upstairs, 'Iron Fist in the boardroom' is an all hands on deck situation. And all of them lost anyways.

p

Overall this was a good show, although it could have been better. The Hand's depiction has been improving steadily since DD2, even if there was some missed opportunities.

As is, nothing the hand can do can make a dent in Luke Cage. Elektra's only option is to punch him in the face and gets lucky enough that this knocks him out, otherwise she was in trouble.

There was potential here to make the Hand essentially mini bosses.

Sowande, 'gun runner' brings heavy weapons and maybe a few Judas rounds that can put a dent in Luke.

Murakami is even harder for DD to track than Nobu and good at sneaking around and attacking from the shadows in general.

Bakuto has tricks that disrupt Danny's chi and affect his focus.

Gao's fine as she is, and Elektra can stand in for Alexandra.

A bit video gamey, and possibly problematic to stage, but the action sometimes ended up stale as it was.

Agreed on the police, towards the end I was wondering if they could get away with telling them that there was a weird terrorist gang based out of midland circle holding Danny Rand hostage. There are reasons why they don't (multiple dead police, potential for govt to get hold of substance), but I was still wondering. Also wondering how Misty got promoted after we last saw her beating up a witness (a witness, not a suspect) and getting a second one killed.


I liked the hand better here and in IF than in DD2, their limitations and pragmatism added to their appeal rather than detracted from it. But they did need more of a threat to the Defenders here.

[Red Fel]

Responses and additional thoughts in spoilers, because obviously.


Those were not dead monks, they were dead Hand ninjas. So they did attack when the iron fist wasn't there, but the city held out even without him, although they probably took more casualties. So now the portal is closed again, and the Hand focus shifts to getting more substance.

I... Don't remember that? I mean, it's possible, been a bit since I watched that episode of IF, but I don't remember that.

Even so, if it was the Hand who took the casualties, doesn't that pretty much obviate the need for an Iron Fist? I mean, if K'un-L'un can defend itself, why is he even a thing?


She happened to discover a terminal illness after reviving Elektra? Just bad luck.

Possible, I suppose.


They could save the corpses, but that requires a lot of trust in your allies.

Less "trust," more "mutually assured survival." The rest of the Fingers insisted that they rescue one another, and that makes sense - you may not get along, but you all need one another to function effectively. It's why previous coup attempts, mentioned by Gao, weren't kill attempts - they need Alexandra alive, just not necessarily in charge.


Who says they don't? But it took a while to figure out that decapitation worked.

The fact that the original five are still around. Or were, when Defenders started. That's what says the Chaste don't. The fact that the remaining four discussed the fact that they were all captured at one point or another. If they were captured, and were still around to talk about it, clearly the Chaste did not go in for decapitation.

At least not until Stick conveniently decided to do precisely that.


It's an antique, there's ten of them in the world. You don't sharpen that one for any ordinary fight, you use a cheap one. So it's an indication that they're not fighting any ordinary war.

If it's an antique, you don't use it. Use a fresh, new sword, made with good steel and modern methods. Unless it's Damascus or something, a modern weapon will probably be sturdier and sharper.


The security were all upstairs, 'Iron Fist in the boardroom' is an all hands on deck situation. And all of them lost anyways.

Even if that explains the daytime raid, it says nothing about the nighttime raid. This is an entire building filled with executives who are also ninja. Do you honestly mean to tell me that every single one, aside from one or two mooks, goes home for the night after a hard day's work? We've seen Gao - she never goes anywhere without her drivers and blind minions and what-not. I have to assume that Bakuto has a similar thing. And again, armies of ninja, why are they not protecting the place where all of their leaders are now gathered? Why was it completely empty that night?


I liked the hand better here and in IF than in DD2, their limitations and pragmatism added to their appeal rather than detracted from it. But they did need more of a threat to the Defenders here.

Yeah. Fact is, the Hand is a good enemy when it's mostly invisible. Facing off against one piece, one "Finger," works really well, as long as the rest is this nebulous always-in-the-background presence.

Think of the League of Shadows in the Nolan Batman films. Does Batman ever fight the entire League? Heck no. (Least I don't think so.) He fights a few elements, but the League is still out there, doing its thing and plotting. This makes the individual League members more memorable, and allows the League to survive.

This is where Defenders really messed the Hand up. They could have done that. Pick one element, one slice of the Hand to be doing this stuff. Heck, we've already established that there are different factions, and that they don't get along. (See Gao's drug runners versus Bakuto's recruitment cult center.) This could have been another faction. Going that route allows you to have one specific villain, stop their plan, and still let the Hand exist in the background.

Instead? Hand's gone. This was their whole plan - burrow under New York to find the bones of monsters. Also, city will collapse, tough luck. That's it, they failed and they're all gone now, sad trombone. And despite being an army of ninja - a fact I feel I keep having to point out - at no point did the heroes fight an army. They fought a few packs of mooks, then several bigshots.

Remember that Hospital scene? Claire does. The one with ninja swarming all over the freaking building. That's what an army of ninja should feel like. This wasn't that. Not even close. Some thugs and some minibosses. This wasn't an ancient and mystical order spanning history and the globe, this was a handful (no pun intended) of forgettable baddies and their faceless goons. And now the entire utility of the Hand as a plot device is gone.

The Hand could have been a bigger threat, a pervasive element. Instead, it was bland and overdone.

[Waker]

Who says they don't? But it took a while to figure out that decapitation worked.
Decapitation isn't exactly an unusual method of execution.


The security were all upstairs, 'Iron Fist in the boardroom' is an all hands on deck situation. And all of them lost anyways.
This building is both the seat of power for the Hand in New York and the gateway into their most important operation. I don't expect them to have an army, but do they really have no "normal" security guards in the building? No keycards or passcodes needed to ascend to the higher levels? Murdock ran up the stairs and Jones just took an elevator. That seems really lax.

[Erys]

I enjoyed it. Everyone felt very in character throughout and the character dynamics of the group seemed pretty spot on to me.

I also think I have some ideas regarding 'the substance'.

When you are first bathed you cannot be killed permanently- save decapitation... so long as the body is able to support life in its whole/natural form. Like we see with Nobu and Harold. But they need a whole barrel of the stuff for the first resurrection of someone and to 'rejuvenate' the body of someone who ultimately dies of old age.

In this vein of thinking Alexandra's gamble on the Black Sky makes sense.

I hope DD3 has Iron Fist filling in for Matt, at least at the start; though, how they explain Daredevil surviving the collapse could be a deal breaker by itself.

[Sapphire Guard]

Responses and additional thoughts in spoilers, because obviously.



I... Don't remember that? I mean, it's possible, been a bit since I watched that episode of IF, but I don't remember that.

Even so, if it was the Hand who took the casualties, doesn't that pretty much obviate the need for an Iron Fist? I mean, if K'un-L'un can defend itself, why is he even a thing?


It's explicit in the scene that the bodies are Hand. Having one good line of defence doesn't mean it's useless to have any others.


The fact that the original five are still around. Or were, when Defenders started. That's what says the Chaste don't. The fact that the remaining four discussed the fact that they were all captured at one point or another. If they were captured, and were still around to talk about it, clearly the Chaste did not go in for decapitation.

Depends on who and how they were captured. Sowande, assuming he was telling the truth, wasn't killed because his soldiers were laying siege to the building, he was a valuable hostage. Gao, also assuming she was telling the truth, spent most of a century being tortured. The others we don't know much about, they may have just been captured by someone other than the Chaste that didn't understand what they were.


If it's an antique, you don't use it. Use a fresh, new sword, made with good steel and modern methods. Unless it's Damascus or something, a modern weapon will probably be sturdier and sharper.

True, but under comic/tv logic, the ancestral weapon is usually the best one.


Even if that explains the daytime raid, it says nothing about the nighttime raid. This is an entire building filled with executives who are also ninja. Do you honestly mean to tell me that every single one, aside from one or two mooks, goes home for the night after a hard day's work? We've seen Gao - she never goes anywhere without her drivers and blind minions and what-not. I have to assume that Bakuto has a similar thing. And again, armies of ninja, why are they not protecting the place where all of their leaders are now gathered? Why was it completely empty that night?

They may not have many left at this point, their crews have been flattened the entire season, and they're fresh out of an all out war with the Chaste. Sowande's out of the equation by then, Murakami didn't bring much of a crew at all, and Gao and Bakuto haven't been shown to be that rich in raw muscle. But yes, they probably should have had more.


Remember that Hospital scene? Claire does. The one with ninja swarming all over the freaking building. That's what an army of ninja should feel like. This wasn't that. Not even close. Some thugs and some minibosses. This wasn't an ancient and mystical order spanning history and the globe, this was a handful (no pun intended) of forgettable baddies and their faceless goons. And now the entire utility of the Hand as a plot device is gone.

I agree to a point, but I never liked the Hand in DD2. Five ninjas in New York are scary, five hundred are just silly, especially when they're doing stuff like shooting arrows at police and sending a stupidly huge crew in full regalia to storm a hospital. We get DD panicking about the huge army of ninjas that mean imminent death, and then that giant army completely vanishes in the climax so that by the end it's just Nobu and four others.

In IF, whatever its flaws, they start acting in the shadows properly, manipulating via proxies and trying hard not to engage in a martial arts contest with the best martial artist in the world, Gao organises that tournament to distract him while she retrieves her chemist then goes to china to try to avoid him.

In Defenders, while they did miss their potential, there was still a level of subtlety that mattered, they're maneuvering through influence and connections as well as force.





Danny does have a good point re Sowande that time, why didn't Matt hear him escaping?

[Legato Endless]

Yeah I'd agree with Afrokuma. I'm glad Netflix has stepped away from the 13 episode formula but this could have had another two episodes to flesh a few things out. Oh well, at least now maybe we'll be free of the Hand and be able to return to better villains. While the character interactions were fun, I actually think my favorite might be Matt and Jess. Their rapport clicked a lot better for me than Danny and Luke. I wouldn't mind some crossover from the two into each other's series going forward. It's not like it'd require much of a stretch for an investigator and lawyer (especially with Daredevil's urban mystery motif) to team up outside of kicking ass.

Also if this series confirms anything it's that Danny can never be left unattended by an adult.

There were a lot of missteps, but the absolute crown has to go with Danny facing off against Electra at the Gate.

Electra: I need your fist to unlock this portal. I'm telling you this because you're dumb and won't listen to what I'm saying.

Danny: Damn. I'm fighting Electra. The only thing I need to do is not summon my power and she can't unlock the gate. Eh, this fight is tough, I think I'll try punching her right next to the gate anyway. Oh god I've hit the Gate!


Danny does have a good point re Sowande that time, why didn't Matt hear him escaping?

He's been distracted with Electra's death and forgets about his powers. It's the same way a guy who can hear trained ninja's breathing in the middle of a battle is somehow unable to detect one investigator track him into an empty alleyway and noisily snap photos.


I also think I have some ideas regarding 'the substance'.

When you are first bathed you cannot be killed permanently- save decapitation... so long as the body is able to support life in its whole/natural form. Like we see with Nobu and Harold. But they need a whole barrel of the stuff for the first resurrection of someone and to 'rejuvenate' the body of someone who ultimately dies of old age.

In this vein of thinking Alexandra's gamble on the Black Sky makes sense.

I think it's just a question of chronology.

We know Electra was resurrected months before the Defenders started. Considering Alexandra's obsession with the Black Sky, spending the last of their resources when they're already tunneling to another deposit makes sense. Alexandra didn't expect to fall ill suddenly, which is why everyone else (notably Gao) is puzzled when she accelerates the timeline and takes a less subtle approach to getting to the dragon fossil. We also know the body has to be some degree of intact for the substance to work. Decapitation and cremation prevent you from coming back. If Alexandra dies and decomposes enough getting the substance later will be too little too late.

[Dr.Samurai]

I didn't buy the importance of the Black Sky. She was basically just a ninja+. I didn't see any reason for her to actually win in that fight against the Defenders (when she kidnaps Danny). Matt holds his own against *TWO* Fingers of the Hand, as well as Elektra later on. Jessica hits Elektra with a couple of strikes that should have crippled the ninja, and why does a boot stomp from Elektra knock Luke Cage out all of a sudden? I didn't really see much to suggest that she was an ultimate weapon except for the writers making her that way. Does "the substance" (lol) make people super strong and invulnerable? (Maybe I'm forgetting that detail.)

Also, when she takes over for Alexandra the villain motivation becomes weak as ****.

Iron Fist...

Danny, Danny, Danny. What to say here? The acting still sucks. He's always jerking his head around like a bird, always trembling, speaking in hisses and whispers. He's still the most important thing ever (the Iron Fist, if you haven't heard it yet). Also, he sucks as a martial artist. And I don't just mean the actor. I mean... Danny Rand, the Iron Fist, sucks at fighting. Did he... beat anyone in the show? Anyone that wasn't a mook? Daredevil outshines him in every respect. His chi is always out of commission when he needs it. Elektra outsmarts him in the most obvious way. But I don't think he defeats any of the Fingers or Elektra. Despite being the most important character to the plot. It's just weird that the premise of his super power is that he is the most capable of defeating the Hand, and yet, he demonstrates the opposite when side-by-side to Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Daredevil and even Colleen. (Maybe he's the one that throws the japanese guy over the elevator, but I don't remember if it was him or Luke.)

Speaking of which, I thought Murakami was *awesome*. I liked his presence and demeanor. I wish he had more of an impact on the story. I felt Gao lost all of her menace as someone that does whatever Alexandra wants.

Anyways, there's a lot to gripe about the show, but it's pretty much all been covered by previous posters. I felt like Jessica's strength was muted for most of the season, except for the awesome car-through-window scene. And of course, the elevator scene. But right before that scene I was thinking "her punches should be incapacitating these mooks after one hit, if not killing them, but for some reason she doesn't seem so strong against Elektra or the mooks". Then she holds onto the elevator cable :). She's still my fave of the group and I think the show mostly did her justice.

Matt's sacrifice was... I don't know. I didn't care for it. It was made worse by the fact that Danny said he died for the city, which obviously isn't true. Very clearly not true, in Matt's own words. The scene was made all the more confusing because Elektra seems to be thoroughly evil up until moments before the explosion, where she's apologizing and admitting that she wants to be with him forever. Bleh.

Still, the show kept me watching. So there's that.

[Dragonus45]

I get a laugh about all the people ranting about privilege with Danny and that scene with Luke. Like somehow he was supposed to know the masked mooks waltzing into the massacre he was investigating to burn the place to the ground were really just a bunch of underprivileged kids who repeatedly turned down help from someone else and made their own life choices. How dare he punch them.

[gomipile]

I would have liked it better if the writers had found a better overarching reason to fight the Hand than myustical mining-caused earthquakes. I mean, seriously.

They didn't need city destroying earthquakes to motivate the five seasons that set this up. the Defenders are supposed to fight street-level threats. they didn't need to escalate it this much. The way it was escalated is just dumb once you find out it's because a load-bearing dragon skeleton is supporting Manhattan for... no reason?

[Dr.Samurai]

I get a laugh about all the people ranting about privilege with Danny and that scene with Luke. Like somehow he was supposed to know the masked mooks waltzing into the massacre he was investigating to burn the place to the ground were really just a bunch of underprivileged kids who repeatedly turned down help from someone else and made their own life choices. How dare he punch them.
As someone that cringes when I hear the word, I get it. But I think the takeaway is that they are approaching the problem from two different directions. Luke is trying to figure out what's happening to the kids in Harlem, and Danny is trying to figure out what the evil global shadow organization is doing in New York. Their perspectives are very different. To Danny, these are loyal goons doing the evil bidding of their dark masters. And to Luke, these are kids just trying to survive.

I still didn't like it, lol. But it's a brief moment in the series.

[Pex]

It clicked.

It's the opposites personalities trope.

Daredevil - Martyr Complex. It's always about everyone else. Needs to hide behind a mask.
Iron Fist - Big ego. It's all about him. Will tell everyone repeatedly he's the Immortal Iron Fist.

Jessica Jones - Reluctant hero who hates on everyone and everything including herself. Doesn't want to use her powers.
Luke Cage - Loves everyone and everything and wants to help people because it's the right thing to do. Wants to use his powers.

[Red Fel]

It occurs to me just how much this series - and those leading up to it - was like a D&D campaign. Observe.

Okay. So there's this DM, let's call him Marvin. He wants to run a campaign in a custom setting, real-world but with superhero elements. So he rounds up several friends (okay, three friends and one cousin) and runs a few solo sessions with each before going into the campaign proper.

First, Marvin calls one of his old friends, whom we'll call Charlie. Charlie and Marvin go way back, so naturally, Charlie was a first-pick to test out this new setting.

Charlie is... Let's just say he's dramatic, with a capital Angst. He's a great player, but everything he does is so much. For example, Marvin asked Charlie for a character class, and Charlie responded that "You can't condense a character's essence down to a single word. He is necessarily complex, nuanced, and contradictory." Charlie decides that his character must be born of two worlds, torn between a deep desire to protect the innocent, and a furious lust to punish the guilty. After some discussion, Marvin says, "So, this character is like Batman?" Charlie scoffs. "No, of course not. Batman is a poor little rich boy out to avenge his parents, who can do whatever he wants without consequence because he's obscenely rich. This character is the everyman, the common clay; his actions have consequences because he can't make everything simply better by paying for it. His depth comes from faith, not just a revenge wish."

Charlie rolls rather well on his character, and spreads his points very evenly, with an emphasis on Wisdom. When Marvin asks him to pick a super power, Charlie asks for bonus senses, because he feels that "perceiving the world leads to greater understanding" or some other dramatic nonsense. Charlie insists, however, that his power should come with a price, because again, drama. So Marvin tells him his character is blind, but can sense what's around him, because Marvin really doesn't want to deal with an actual character limitation. Charlie is fine with this.

Because they're old friends, Marvin actually runs extra sessions with Charlie, to get his input and test out various elements for the setting. Charlie really likes the "heroes versus crime lords" module, which he feels gives him a tangible foe to fight, or as he puts it, "a dark mirror to my character's own struggle." But when Marvin brings out his "heroes versus ninjas" module, Charlie scoffs a bit. "Ninja? Really?" Charlie thinks it's a bit silly, and only gets into things when Marvin decides to add a conflicted love interest to the story, which Charlie enjoys very much, as it adds to the drama.

Krysten lives in Marvin's apartment complex. She and Marvin have run into each other a few times and talked shop; she plays in other games, with other DMs, but when Marvin mentions a real-world-based setting, he has her interest. When he asks for her character concept, she explains simply, "Private investigator."

Krysten is what we call a "good roleplayer." She has a character concept and remains extremely consistent. Her concept, in this case, is the somewhat-archetypical jerk with a heart of gold and a damaged backstory. But when Marvin mentions superhero elements, and that she has to pick a power, Krysten groans. "I thought this was supposed to be realistic," she mutters. "Fine. Make her strong, or something." The powers are an afterthought, and she really doesn't like them as part of her character.

That said, Marvin gives her exactly what she wanted - a gritty detective story exploring her character's dark, traumatic past. She absolutely loves it. It's character-driven and compelling. And when he tells her he's going to build it into a larger campaign, she's in.

Mike is an older gamer, who mostly plays for the social aspect. He's what you'd call a "good guy" or team player; he's there to hang out with friends, and usually plays a force multiplier to make the rest of the party special. He always plays a moral character, and always plays a Paladin. When Marvin tells him there are no Paladins in this setting, Mike laughs and says, "Then just put 'Paladin' in quotation marks."

Mike can be really cheesy sometimes.

Mike names his character Luke, because, "Jedi, you know? Good guys." Marvin declines to get into that debate. Mike rolls outrageously well on his character, and has absurd Str, Con, Wis, and Cha, as well as solid Dex and Int. When asked to pick a super power, he says, "Let's just make everything bigger, you know? Big and tough. And let's say, perfect teeth."

Mike can be really cheesy sometimes.

Mike's a bit uncomfortable with the idea of a solo campaign. He's used to being a team player, and generally avoiding the limelight, but Marvin assures him it will be worth it. Marvin gives Mike a story in which Mike's character, escaped from prison, tries to make good in his old neighborhood. ("Ooh, a redemption arc, awesome!") It's a campy, cheesy, but uplifting romp about Mike's character realizing the need to stand for and help other people. By the end of it, Mike's character takes responsibility for his own actions.

Mike had a blast, and is ready to retire his character. But Marvin says, "Remember how I promised you'd get a team game?" With that, Mike is up for the campaign sessions.

Finn is Marvin's younger cousin. Much younger. Finn is staying with Marvin for the summer, and really wants to be involved in this awesome superhero game. So Marvin helps Finn come up with a concept.

"I want him to be a living weapon!" Finn says. "Awesome and mystical and super important!" Finn wants a martial artist, he says, with years of training and also tons of money and importance. "So, this character is like Batman?" Marvin asks, feeling flashbacks to his session with Charlie. "Yes!" says Finn, "But so much better, because he has a magical fist that totally breaks everything!" Finn is so obsessed with this fist that he insists on dumping his character points (Marvin didn't make him roll, because cousin) into Dex. Finn claims he won't need to be smart, or clever, or durable, just fast and armed with a magic fist.

Finn looks through Marvin's notes (which he really shouldn't) and insists that Marvin run the module with the ninjas (which Charlie hated). Marvin does so. Finn basically ignores the love interest, because, "Cool, ninjas!" Finn's character goes around telling everyone how important he is, and becomes frustrated that people don't believe him. ("Your character was away training, remember? They don't know you." "They should, I'm the hero!") But then Finn fights a bunch of ninjas, so he's happy.

Marvin gets Charlie, Krysten, Mike, and Finn together for the session. He starts with a few character-specific moments, which they all seem to enjoy (although Finn is extremely impatient), before the first big campaign moment.


Marvin: Okay. Mike, you're investigating the building because of the kid you failed to save. Krysten, you're there to figure out what your client's husband knew. Charlie, you're following Krysten. And Finn, why did you say-

Finn: I'm there because I'm gonna tell them that I'll sue them and they'll be super impressed and surrender! Me first!

Marvin: Okay, fine, go.

Finn: I go in and tell them I've got them dead to rights and they need to surrender.

Marvin: They attack you.

Finn: No fair!

Mike: Do I show up to help?

Marvin: Sure. So do Charlie and Krysten. Hey, Charlie, roll Perception.

Charlie: Natural 20.

Marvin: The attacker coming at you breathes like your dead girlfriend.

Charlie: Angst!

Yes, at Finn's pre-game insistence, this is an extension of the ninja module.

The party escapes and retires to a restaurant. Finn, excited to finally have the team-up, switches from his usual "I'm the most important and the hero" attitude to "hey we're all PCs let's team up and I'll be the leader." Marvin, worried about this, re-introduces Charlie's old mentor ("Good touch, great drama, Matthew hates this guy") who takes Charlie's character aside to insist that he be leader. Mike is kind of stoked, because he likes this team idea. Krysten, on the other hand, is officially bored, because she signed up for a character-driven detective drama, not a superhero-mystical-ninja crap. She wanders into the other room to make some phone calls. Marvin pauses the table, goes after her, and insists that this will move her character forward. He even gives her a side scene creating motivation. Mollified, Krysten returns to the table.

And then more superhero-mystical-ninja-crap.

Finn insists that he needs to be the central character, and to mollify his cousin, Marvin agrees. Charlie insists there needs to be more drama, so Marvin gives the dead girlfriend a bigger role. Mike is just having fun with everyone - although not so much with Finn, who kind of annoys him - so he's pretty easygoing. But Krysten remains a bit put off by the tonal shift, and just sort of follows the rest around and snarks a bit.

Finally, they reach the climax. Finn insists on fighting the last boss solo, which does not go well. The rest of the team shows up, and then Marvin takes out a timer. "There are bombs upstairs," he says. "You have until this timer goes down to escape from the building, or your characters die." Of course, Marvin doesn't plan to kill the PCs, but he feels it adds to the tension.

Charlie insists that the rest of the team go without him. Having figured out Finn pretty well, he passes him a note that says, "Matthew is going to stay behind. If you get everyone else out, that means the leader is gone and you get to be the leader." Finn reads the note, then insists that the rest of the team evacuate, believing that this will make him leader. Charlie is given a touching death scene as the building collapses.

Finn does not become leader.

Marvin gives each of the characters a quick resolution. Mike's character goes back home to resume his life. Krysten's character gets back to sleuthing. ("About time," she grumbles.) Finn has no idea what his character should do next, so he just says, "I meditate or something." And after everyone leaves, Marvin reveals to Charlie that Matthew somehow survived the explosion.

They all expect to come back for more one-on-one sessions.

I mean, am I wrong? Does it not feel like DD was a character written by an angst-happy theater major, LC by someone who just wanted to have fun with friends, JJ by someone who was clearly in the wrong campaign, and IF by someone really immature, easily distracted, and overly self-important, who is being coddled by the DM? Am I the only one who feels that way?

[Dr.Samurai]

Lmfao, no Red Fel, I think you are spot on!! 😂

[Waker]

Red, that description was great. Some of those lines, "Finn did not become the leader", had me laughing pretty hard.

[Lector87]

Red Fel, I am subbing to this thread just so I can come back and read all that once I've finished the series.

Your character summaries are spot on.

[paddyfool]

Genius post, Red Fel.

[Lord Ruby34]

I don't think that works, though.

Okay, so there are two reasons why that doesn't sit right with me.

First: Danny wasn't exiled. He left. In fact, Davos (who is clearly not in this series because he went back to work for Jon Snow in Westeros) specifically left K'un-L'un to bring Danny back. Further: Why would K'un-L'un ever exile the Immortal Weapon specifically trained to defend them from the Hand?

Which leads to the second point: If a person (e.g. Danny) could be exiled in absentia, and thus be prevented from ever entering the "true" K'un-L'un, why would they even need an Iron Fist? If the only threat to K'un-L'un is the Hand, why not simply "exile" all of them? Boom, now nobody sworn to the Hand can ever enter K'un-L'un, and the whole place is safe.

See what I mean? Doesn't work.


I'm not sure it's what happened, but those are the narrative threads that I'm picking up, and it could work.

Anyone who leaves is exiled, you don't get to come back to K'un-L'un. So no going back for Davos either, but the Monks need to actually know who, specifically, they're exiling for whatever mystic kung-fu magic they do to work.

[paddyfool]

I'm not sure it's what happened, but those are the narrative threads that I'm picking up, and it could work.

Anyone who leaves is exiled, you don't get to come back to K'un-L'un. So no going back for Davos either, but the Monks need to actually know who, specifically, they're exiling for whatever mystic kung-fu magic they do to work.


In the comics, while Danny was away, the Thunderer , Davos' father and Danny's teacher, stood in for him guarding K'un L'un.

[afroakuma]

So let's talk about what ultimately undermined The Defenders as a series, and in a broader sense bruised the Marvel Netflix project: lack of a cohesive vision. The resulting errors not just in minute continuity but in broad-strokes elements and refusal to make commitments on behalf of future projects give us... well, things that could have come off much better.

Black Sky
The first time we see a Black Sky, it's a child, referred to by Stick as "it" and suggested to be a weapon so dangerous that it had to be killed. In Daredevil's second season, we get the eerie scenes involving the people whose blood is being harvested by the Hand, and the strange,
almost demonic "mind control" they seem to be caught under. This blood appears to be relevant to the process of "activating" a Black Sky,
as Elektra was identified as one and the blood was being harvested before she ever got stabbed.

So what's the point of a Black Sky? I mean, sure, you get a Hand ninja +1 out of it, but one arguably less fanatical than your standard-issue Hand goons and really not any better than, say, guns... poison... explosions... the "ultimate weapon" is just a mild superhuman in a world that has seen Steve Rogers and more. What makes her such an essential stepping stone to their plans?

Daredevil never clarified the nature of the Black Sky as a weapon. There were some mood-related implications that it might be something more otherworldly, and that would have been a much more excellent payoff. Instead, Alexandra commits the last of their "resources" to a tool that's employed for bog-standard assassinations targeting architects and the like. The Hand has Sowande, who can ostensibly murder with a couple of touches; Madame Gao, telekinetic witch; and a legion of people with pointy objects, guns, and no qualms about getting a bit dead in the line of duty. At no point does the Black Sky justify her existence; at best, she's able to retrieve the Iron Fist, but not any moreso than a Hand task force could have done in the same circumstances. Efficiency, maybe?

The Black Sky should have played up the unnerving and vaguely-demonic qualities.

Madame Gao
Wai Ching Ho is still too good for the shows that contain her. Gao is effectively used in Daredevil, where she tells Leland Owlsley that she plans to return home to ponder her next moves. China? No, she corrects him, a considerable distance further. That's K'un Lun, K'un Zi,
other places of that nature. At the time, we followed this implication clearly. However, come Iron Fist, we discover that she is a leader of the Hand (having been presented as unrelated to the Hand in the first and second seasons of Daredevil) and thus an enemy of K'un Lun, presumably forbidden to return. Doesn't rule her out of one of the other cities, of course. That's why The Defenders comes in to tell us that she's definitely from K'un Lun and her goal is to return there. Things don't line up anymore.

What happened? Well, the big mistake was aligning Gao with the Hand and making her just one of its Fingers. This is good insofar as it brought her in as a foe to the Iron Fist, but creates a clumsy disconnect in which three Fingers of the Hand were operating in New York City for unrelated reasons, with a fourth present and accounted for. Bakuto is running his recruitment camp and hates Gao, who is selling heroin and keeps her activities separate from Nobu, representing Murakami, who was to secure the Midland Circle site for the Hand and also imports the first Black Sky (and tries to recruit the second)... and then we find out the Black Sky is Alexandra's idea. Remember what happened last time all five Fingers of the Hand came together? Cause that's four, and all they got was a mildly improved ninja with loyalty programming glitches and a big hole in the ground.

Looping Gao in with the Hand does weird things to past narratives and underserves the character in The Defenders as well. She always acts like she has better things to be doing than wrangling idiot ninjas.


We Must Stop You
Boy oh boy the show whiffs this one hard. The reason Jessica Jones is brought in to confront the Hand's plans is because an architect ran off. He kills himself. Why did he kill himself? He discovered criminal activity below a building he designed. Case closed.

Why is Luke Cage involved? Harlem youths were being exploited to clean up Hand mess sites. Why the Hand would risk this when they have hundreds of their own disposable and loyal operatives is anyone's guess, but the larger point is that as of the time Luke figures this out,
the Hand is out of the business of needing cleanup crew for the foreseeable future. Case closed.

Ah, but the Hand is a threat to the entire isle of Manhattan! If they mine those dragon bones, the cavern under Manhattan will weaken and collapse. Eventually, mind you, not in any short frame of time - the villains even make this clear. If they'd take the time to bring in materials to shore up the pit (or, say, blow up their own empty building in a controlled fashion to fill it in after they're gone) then there's literally no consequence to their plans.

Do we really have to stop them? Uh... I'm kind of hard-pressed to think of a reason why that isn't "because they're the badguys." A more compelling motive than "collecting immortality powder from under New York City" would have been really appreciated - but apparently we lacked the time for interesting motives. Speaking of which...

Fingers
Way to waste a Sigourney Weaver, folks. After some brilliant setup and excellent character scenes in episodes 3 and 4, she's driven off the rails hard in 5 and 6 as a setup for her elimination by Elektra. To say the Black Sky makes a less compelling villain is a grievous understatement. Once again, there were great opportunities to make use of Ms. Weaver (a black belt in real life) wasted because someone had the bright idea for a final confrontation between Elektra and Daredevil.

Sowande has his abilities talked up shortly before he gets ganked offscreen, in a fight we really should have been privy to. Yes, it's a mildly funny beat to have Luke return with the man who thought he could break him, but did we really need to do Black Dude Dies First?

Murakami is just a generic Hand ninja - he displays no special abilities and is underwhelming to a fault. Remember when Nobu fought Matt and it was a brutal, bloody battle with a fiery outcome? How the mighty have flatlined.

As for Bakuto, I just hate him. I find him a waste of space as a character, pointlessly smug and creating flawed conflicts to cover for the lack of better ones. His presence as the fifth Finger feels obligatory, as though they were checking off people who still lived and could plausibly count as Hand leaders and noticed he vanished at the end of Iron Fist. He goads Colleen frequently, sure, but arguably that makes him less effective.
Oh yes, and once again, the later series splashes the narrative of the earlier one, as Bakuto's story about his Hand upbringing, seeing the film of the Iron Fist, that's all now crap. If he's a Finger, he's as old as they are, originates in K'un Lun, and has personally met several Iron Fists before. He also tried to recruit Danny Rand well before the Hand knew they needed themselves the dumbest man in New York.

Daredevil
Why even pretend for ten minutes that he's not coming back if we have his series announced? Put his friends grieving in the first episode of his own show, don't drag out the ending to this one on what we already know to be nonsense.

And This Just Bugs Me...
I know they never will, but it would be nice to see some nod to the broader cinematic universe beyond "the Incident."
The villains are trying to pull off a scheme that literally shakes the earth in Manhattan; they should acknowledge why they aren't worried about Tony Stark showing up. I'm not asking for expensive actors to be dragged in for a cameo, but I do think we can take a moment to remember that the Avengers' existence within this universe is an established fact. This city in particular feels like it would need some acknowledgement.
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure there's a higher directive telling them not to speak of such things - Feige has alluded to such a no-crossover policy. What can ya do? :smalltongue:

Blargh... I have a few things I could say better but it's very late and I'm tired. I may try again tomorrow.

[Red Fel]

Black Sky
The first time we see a Black Sky, it's a child, referred to by Stick as "it" and suggested to be a weapon so dangerous that it had to be killed. In Daredevil's second season, we get the eerie scenes involving the people whose blood is being harvested by the Hand, and the strange,
almost demonic "mind control" they seem to be caught under. This blood appears to be relevant to the process of "activating" a Black Sky,
as Elektra was identified as one and the blood was being harvested before she ever got stabbed.

So what's the point of a Black Sky? I mean, sure, you get a Hand ninja +1 out of it, but one arguably less fanatical than your standard-issue Hand goons and really not any better than, say, guns... poison... explosions... the "ultimate weapon" is just a mild superhuman in a world that has seen Steve Rogers and more. What makes her such an essential stepping stone to their plans?

Daredevil never clarified the nature of the Black Sky as a weapon. There were some mood-related implications that it might be something more otherworldly, and that would have been a much more excellent payoff. Instead, Alexandra commits the last of their "resources" to a tool that's employed for bog-standard assassinations targeting architects and the like. The Hand has Sowande, who can ostensibly murder with a couple of touches; Madame Gao, telekinetic witch; and a legion of people with pointy objects, guns, and no qualms about getting a bit dead in the line of duty. At no point does the Black Sky justify her existence; at best, she's able to retrieve the Iron Fist, but not any moreso than a Hand task force could have done in the same circumstances. Efficiency, maybe?

The Black Sky should have played up the unnerving and vaguely-demonic qualities.

Fingers
Way to waste a Sigourney Weaver, folks. After some brilliant setup and excellent character scenes in episodes 3 and 4, she's driven off the rails hard in 5 and 6 as a setup for her elimination by Elektra. To say the Black Sky makes a less compelling villain is a grievous understatement. Once again, there were great opportunities to make use of Ms. Weaver (a black belt in real life) wasted because someone had the bright idea for a final confrontation between Elektra and Daredevil.

Sowande has his abilities talked up shortly before he gets ganked offscreen, in a fight we really should have been privy to. Yes, it's a mildly funny beat to have Luke return with the man who thought he could break him, but did we really need to do Black Dude Dies First?

Murakami is just a generic Hand ninja - he displays no special abilities and is underwhelming to a fault. Remember when Nobu fought Matt and it was a brutal, bloody battle with a fiery outcome? How the mighty have flatlined.

As for Bakuto, I just hate him. I find him a waste of space as a character, pointlessly smug and creating flawed conflicts to cover for the lack of better ones. His presence as the fifth Finger feels obligatory, as though they were checking off people who still lived and could plausibly count as Hand leaders and noticed he vanished at the end of Iron Fist. He goads Colleen frequently, sure, but arguably that makes him less effective.
Oh yes, and once again, the later series splashes the narrative of the earlier one, as Bakuto's story about his Hand upbringing, seeing the film of the Iron Fist, that's all now crap. If he's a Finger, he's as old as they are, originates in K'un Lun, and has personally met several Iron Fists before. He also tried to recruit Danny Rand well before the Hand knew they needed themselves the dumbest man in New York.


I agree. I feel like there's a lot of talking up - a lot of the "informed ability" trope, where a thing is scary or a person is powerful, not because we see them being scary or powerful, but because we're told.

Aside from Gao, whose abilities we have seen in previous series and seems to be legitimately supernatural to some degree, everything about the Hand that doesn't concern resurrection is, at best, superlative martial arts. That's honestly not that intimidating when we actually see it in action, so all the big talk immediately feels hollow.

The characters themselves - specifically, the Fingers - are also poorly fleshed out. As you mentioned, Gao's motivations seem to shift annoyingly, but even that is only a fraction of a character. And Defenders isn't the first to have this issue. For example, in Iron Fist, Danny actually fought the Bride of Nine Spiders and Zhou Cheng. How cool would that have been to expand on those characters? Another Immortal Weapon, and the reincarnation of a killer of past Iron Fists? Instead, they're good for one fight and then discarded.

The Fingers, with the exception of Gao and, to a lesser degree, Bakuto (only because we've seen him before, and even then he was barely characterized) suffer this same problem. We don't know them. We're told how menacing they are. But aside from one monologue about a siege and one wolf-dissection, we really have nothing to go on. And the fact that Luke can take out Sowande off-camera, and Matt can handle two of them at once, really does nothing for them. They're flat at best, and hollow at worst.

Also, I totally didn't realize that Weaver had a martial arts background until you mentioned it. Wow, yeah, not only was her acting underutilized, so was her physical prowess. At least they took advantage of her height in a couple of scenes (she is incredibly tall), but even that was under-used. Pity.


Madame Gao
Wai Ching Ho is still too good for the shows that contain her. Gao is effectively used in Daredevil, where she tells Leland Owlsley that she plans to return home to ponder her next moves. China? No, she corrects him, a considerable distance further. That's K'un Lun, K'un Zi,
other places of that nature. At the time, we followed this implication clearly. However, come Iron Fist, we discover that she is a leader of the Hand (having been presented as unrelated to the Hand in the first and second seasons of Daredevil) and thus an enemy of K'un Lun, presumably forbidden to return. Doesn't rule her out of one of the other cities, of course. That's why The Defenders comes in to tell us that she's definitely from K'un Lun and her goal is to return there. Things don't line up anymore.

What happened? Well, the big mistake was aligning Gao with the Hand and making her just one of its Fingers. This is good insofar as it brought her in as a foe to the Iron Fist, but creates a clumsy disconnect in which three Fingers of the Hand were operating in New York City for unrelated reasons, with a fourth present and accounted for. Bakuto is running his recruitment camp and hates Gao, who is selling heroin and keeps her activities separate from Nobu, representing Murakami, who was to secure the Midland Circle site for the Hand and also imports the first Black Sky (and tries to recruit the second)... and then we find out the Black Sky is Alexandra's idea. Remember what happened last time all five Fingers of the Hand came together? Cause that's four, and all they got was a mildly improved ninja with loyalty programming glitches and a big hole in the ground.

Looping Gao in with the Hand does weird things to past narratives and underserves the character in The Defenders as well. She always acts like she has better things to be doing than wrangling idiot ninjas.

So much this.

Let's face it, scheming murderous bastard in the shadows is a thing these shows have done a lot. As I mentioned, Kingpin, Mariah, Meachum - it's been done, with varying degrees of sanity. But Gao was legitimately different. She felt like she was part of something bigger, darker, more mysterious. Each time she appeared she was intimidating. She was a perfect example of showing, not just telling.

Think of it this way. In Dragon Ball Z, when Nappa and Vegeta first arrive on Earth, Nappa goes around destroying everything and murders several main characters. He's this big, bruising, intimidating figure whose terrible power is clearly visible. And he grovels before the smaller, slimmer Vegeta. This immediately shows the viewer just how dangerous Vegeta must be, despite his size and the fact that we haven't seen him do anything. (Not counting bug planet filler.)

That was Kingpin and Gao, when Gao was first introduced. Kingpin was a known, terrible factor. And he showed the utmost deference to this mysterious woman. He was Nappa, she was Vegeta, and we knew she was bad news. And that was awesome.

Even in Iron Fist, where he challenges her, the show makes clear just how bad it would be if he faced her directly. She commands these other, numerous, extremely dangerous fighters - again, Nappas to her Vegeta. Again, awesome.

And suddenly, in this show, for no real reason, she becomes meek and subservient to Alexandra. Somehow, it doesn't convey the Nappa-Vegeta dynamic. Probably because, despite being menacing, Alexandra really doesn't give off the same mysterious, malicious, I-will-definitely-destroy-you vibe. Our first encounter with her highlights just how feeble and desperate Alexandra is, which doesn't make her more menacing.

They take Gao, who was legitimately solid, dangerous, and mysterious, and turn her into a pawn. The only bright side in all of this is that, unlike all of her colleagues, we don't actually see Gao die. Three are decapitated, one is impaled at the bottom of an elevator shaft, but we never actually see Gao injured - so she might come back.

But yeah. Gao was the only part of the Hand - in this or previous series - that felt truly ominous. It's almost embarrassing that they had others operating in New York at the same time, and actually takes away from her character.

[Chromascope3D]

So, I've never read comics Iron Fist, but my impression was that he's fairly upbeat and cheerful most of the time, and while the character grew on me a bit during Episode 4 when he did finally loosen his belt and show this side of his personality, why is he so much of a grouch the other 90% of the time he's on screen, especially when (to me, at least) sullen angery Finn is far less convincing or interesting than jovial smartass Finn?

[Lector87]

So, I've never read comics Iron Fist, but my impression was that he's fairly upbeat and cheerful most of the time, and while the character grew on me a bit during Episode 4 when he did finally loosen his belt and show this side of his personality, why is he so much of a grouch the other 90% of the time he's on screen, especially when (to me, at least) sullen angery Finn is far less convincing or interesting than jovial smartass Finn?

Based on how he came off in the first couple episodes of his series - barefoot, sleeping in a park, cheerfully indifferent to societal standards, principled, compassionate - I was really hoping he was a Holy Fool type of character. Instead he turned into an Angsty Adolescent. It's like the person who wrote the first episode was laid off before they finished the series.

[Rynjin]

or example, in Iron Fist, Danny actually fought the Bride of Nine Spiders and Zhou Cheng. How cool would that have been to expand on those characters? Another Immortal Weapon, and the reincarnation of a killer of past Iron Fists? Instead, they're good for one fight and then discarded.

Whoa, wait, where was Zhou Cheng in Iron Fist? I remember the bastardized Bride, but I don't remember a dragon coming out of anybody's throat.

Edit: Huh? Bargain Bin Jackie Chan was supposed to be Cheng?

God dammit, **** the Iron Fist show. It's like they went out of their way to ruin everything that could have been cool.




So, I've never read comics Iron Fist, but my impression was that he's fairly upbeat and cheerful most of the time, and while the character grew on me a bit during Episode 4 when he did finally loosen his belt and show this side of his personality, why is he so much of a grouch the other 90% of the time he's on screen, especially when (to me, at least) sullen angery Finn is far less convincing or interesting than jovial smartass Finn?

Danny's not always cheerful, but one really ****ty comic series aside (The Living Weapon) he's usually really optimistic and idealistic. Even the old 70's stick up his ass Iron Fist actually had fun challenging his abilities and a "never say die" attitude.

Daniel "Snarks-a-lot" Rand is the more modern interpretation (the currently ongoing Power Man/Iron Fist series is real good), and he's way more fun to watch and read about than Sad Sack Rand.

I have no idea where they pulled Sad Sack Rand from. I'm guessing The Living Weapon since they're using the same "X-Ray Light" Iron Fist that was in that series. It'd make sense. Everything about Living Weapon sucked, so of course that's the version they use. Fits with their MO in adapting the Iron Fist stuff. At least Living Weapon Danny had a REASON to be angsty. Your girlfriend miscarrying and then leaving you will do that to a man. This Danny is sad because...ninjas exist, I guess.

[Beeliever]

So, I've never read comics Iron Fist, but my impression was that he's fairly upbeat and cheerful most of the time, and while the character grew on me a bit during Episode 4 when he did finally loosen his belt and show this side of his personality, why is he so much of a grouch the other 90% of the time he's on screen, especially when (to me, at least) sullen angery Finn is far less convincing or interesting than jovial smartass Finn?If you want a good example of how the show messed up, read Immortal Iron Fist. I'm a huge Iron Fist fan because of that series, but damn, does the series seriously butcher him in this instance.

I seriously hope season 2 switches gears and push him towards the IF that readers enjoy. Not this Living Weapon B.S.

Edit: Immortal Iron Fist also shows stories about previous Iron Fists, and it's kinda neat. They each essentially have their own use of the Fist that's unique to them, and it really feels like there's a legacy being passed down. It also gives you the other Immortal Weapons - similarly-legendary defenders of their respective cities - and that's another bunch of fun.

[Rynjin]

Immortal is what got me into IF to start. I started going back to re-read as much of the old stuff I could get my hands on after reading it.

There's some good, some bad in the comics (like anything) but one thing all the comics get right is that a martial artist with a magic fist is COOL, which the Netflix canon doesn't seem to get. Even when he's wearing some doofy get-up like this (https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/6ADDtBfKpUleV0--zKlu-ht5LCU=/164x0:846x480/1200x800/filters:focal(356x173:490x307)/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/51267327/3462356-l.0.0.jpg) or even the current look (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/14/d8/f7/14d8f7c57e1d6e0aa602d2501564726b--superhero-design-david-walker.jpg) (which, eh, it still needs some time to grow on me let's say) the comics always manage to capture the simple fact that a dude beating up other dudes in flashy ways is fun and cool and something not to be taken too seriously.

Which is the big failing with Iron Fist: It tries to be as as serious as Daredevil, broodmaster supreme, and fails because its premise is inherently more outlandish and they're actively working AGAINST comics materials they could draw on. Daredevil, Cage, and Jessica ALL feel like themselves from at least SOME point in their development. Danny feels way different and it hurts the quality of everything he appears in since the writing is inconsistent.

You know you ****ed up when a mediocre at best children's cartoon (Ultimate Spider Man) portrays your main character more accurately (and more likeably) than your critically acclaimed live action canon.

[Emperor Demonking]

Just watched episode 6 after reading Dungeons and Defenders: An Allegory, and one really can't unsee it. Particularly with Iron Fist.

[JeenLeen]

In response to Red Fel's comments, something I think the show was implying.
Kun'lan is not destroyed, but Danny was exiled and now all he can see when he goes back there is his fears. I think Gao is implying this, and it's moderately corroborated by a pictuer in one of the Finger scenes where they have this old ink drawing of a burnt down Kun'lan. Just my impression from the show, but it allayed my concerns about Gao and Danny's conversations.

It always seemed obvious to me to think it's possible that
that the mystic portal or whatever closed. Danny doesn't know how long it is open, just that it opens every 15 (right?) years. Maybe he was just a bit too late.

Near the end of Iron Fist, they just found dead Hand outside the gate, right? That makes me think the Hand attacked, the monks defending it won, and the doorway closed.


It is possible that what Danny thought happened did happen, of course, but I agree with Lord Ruby.

[Sapphire Guard]

The city doesn't have to be destroyed for Danny to feel guilty that he wasn't there to lead the defence. Any casualties that happened are now his fault.

I'm still a bit puzzled by the degree of hate Danny gets.

Can I ask a question of any New Yorkers in the Playground? Is the city really that big a presence in US culture? Like, in Luke Cage, Luke, native to Georgia and until recently working in Hell's Kitchen, was making speeches about how great Harlem was? Is it really so iconic to so many of its inhabitants?

[Rynjin]

The city doesn't have to be destroyed for Danny to feel guilty that he wasn't there to lead the defence. Any casualties that happened are now his fault.

I'm still a bit puzzled by the degree of hate Danny gets.

Can I ask a question of any New Yorkers in the Playground? Is the city really that big a presence in US culture? Like, in Luke Cage, Luke, native to Georgia and until recently working in Hell's Kitchen, was making speeches about how great Harlem was? Is it really so iconic to so many of its inhabitants?

Not a New Yorker, but Harlem traditionally was a hub of black culture, and has a legacy of being both a poor neighborhood...and one where many of the greatest black entertainers and artists of their time grew up.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm still a bit puzzled by the degree of hate Danny gets.
I'm just as puzzled as you are, but in the other direction. I can't even name you a redeeming quality that he has except... good guy?

Otherwise, he's just an annoying character. Even his little quirks and mannerisms bug me, like his head movements, and how he's always exhaling a little puff of air before or while he speaks.

For what it's worth, Daredevil gets on my nerves a little as well, for kind of the same reason. But Matt comes across as much more grown up while he's sulking or being conflicted or going through turmoil or whatever.

Can I ask a question of any New Yorkers in the Playground? Is the city really that big a presence in US culture? Like, in Luke Cage, Luke, native to Georgia and until recently working in Hell's Kitchen, was making speeches about how great Harlem was? Is it really so iconic to so many of its inhabitants?
Harlem is definitely iconic. But to "so many of its inhabitants"? I don't know. Probably not. There's definitely a cultural scene. But not for every New Yorker or even every Harlemite. That's coming from someone who was born here, has lived in every borough but Staten Island, and has lived in Harlem.

But I may just be an uncultured barbarian...

[Chromascope3D]

The city doesn't have to be destroyed for Danny to feel guilty that he wasn't there to lead the defence. Any casualties that happened are now his fault.

Right, but couldn't the writers have just not destroyed K'un Lun and instead given Danny some motivation that wouldn't also make him sulky? Like, maybe he just set out to fight the Hand because they're jerks and need to be fought?

[Thufir]

I'm getting the distinct impression that I gave myself the best possible chances of liking Netflix Danny by neither reading any of his comics nor watching his solo series before going into Defenders. I can easily imagine that I'd find him much more annoying without the other three protagonists there to balance him out, and missing out on most of his backstory meant I had no big expectations for him to not live up to.

[Pex]

The city doesn't have to be destroyed for Danny to feel guilty that he wasn't there to lead the defence. Any casualties that happened are now his fault.

I'm still a bit puzzled by the degree of hate Danny gets.

Can I ask a question of any New Yorkers in the Playground? Is the city really that big a presence in US culture? Like, in Luke Cage, Luke, native to Georgia and until recently working in Hell's Kitchen, was making speeches about how great Harlem was? Is it really so iconic to so many of its inhabitants?

New York City is the only city that matters because it's New York City.

More seriously, New York City is the definitive definition of what it means to be a city. It has everything - crowds, glamour, wealth, poverty, politics, skyscrapers, neighborhoods.

In other news, the more people trash the Defenders and especially Iron Fist you persuade me to like them more. I can agree Iron Fist is naive and self-centered, but I find it a feature not a bug. He wasn't written that way by accident, and I don't think it was a mistake. I'm liking my opposite personalities idea. Iron Fist contrasts with Daredevil. Luke Cage contrasts with Jessica Jones.

[Red Fel]

In other news, the more people trash the Defenders and especially Iron Fist you persuade me to like them more. I can agree Iron Fist is naive and self-centered, but I find it a feature not a bug. He wasn't written that way by accident, and I don't think it was a mistake. I'm liking my opposite personalities idea. Iron Fist contrasts with Daredevil. Luke Cage contrasts with Jessica Jones.

I'm not entirely sure I agree.

DD and IF are both martial artists with center-of-the-universe complexes. Iron Fist sulks because he's the legendary Iron Fist and the Hand is the enemy he and only he can destroy, and blames himself when things go wrong because he should have stopped it. Daredevil sulks because when bad things happen it's totally his fault and the Hand is the enemy he and only he can destroy, and blames himself when things go wrong because he has a moral imperative to protect the innocent. The only real difference I can see, other than money, is the fact that Danny is pretty much defined by being self-centered, whereas Matt is pretty much defined by being a martyr, despite somehow being self-centered anyway.

Luke Cage and Jessica Jones are sort of contrasts. Both have a personal tragedy, and powers that were forced upon them which they initially avoided. Where they diverge - and where you see the contrast - is that Luke eventually learned that he could use his powers to stand for something and help others, because he is freaking Captain America, whereas Jessica was so scarred by her experiences that she didn't reach that point. They both feel a need to help people - although Jessica hides it better - but Luke more readily acts on it.

So, yeah. I really don't see an "opposites" dynamic between Danny and Matt, and only sort of between Luke and Jessica.

Perhaps most ironically, though, the dynamic to which people really seemed to respond wasn't the Luke/Danny dynamic from the comics, which felt a bit forced, or the Luke/Jessica dynamic, which fans of the comics expect but hasn't quite reached ripeness yet on the show, but the unexpected Matt/Jessica dynamic. Out of the four of them, those two fit best in the same universe - the scarred detective and the conflicted but passionate lawyer - and it actually plays out pretty well onscreen.

[Dr.Samurai]

I agree RedFel. I mentioned earlier that both Danny and Matt seem pretty similar, except Matt strikes me as more adult or mature. Whereas Danny just comes off as childish, which, for me, makes him less tolerable.

I thought they did Jessica real well in Defenders (but she's my fave). The only time I was kind of iffy on her depiction was at the end when they're all surprised and dealing with Colleen's suggestion to blow up the building. She seemed against it, and then Luke voices his opinion and then she's like "let's just do it". Seemed kind of quick and not as stubborn as I would have anticipated. I thought maybe she might have shrugged off the conversation entirely by pushing forward with saving Danny and telling the group that whatever else they do they're on their own (and then of course helping them do it later when the time comes). Not a huge deal. I thought otherwise she was great. When she tells Luke "I don't know what it is about you that makes you want to help people, but that's not me" I'm sitting there grinning like "Oh yes it is Jessica, you're just being stubborn. It has to be on your terms. That's ok. See you in a little bit." And then we get the car-through-storefront scene :smallbiggrin:.

[Pex]

I still see them as opposites. If you don't, that's your business. Doesn't change how I see them.

It reinforces for me why Daredevil whispered to Danny to protect his city, but he gave his props to Luke and Jessica. Hugs not needed.

We'll see in Iron Fist season 2 if Danny matures. The shadow profile fake out of revealing Danny implies such. He took Daredevil's words to heart, implying he sees himself as his successor.

Character growth. What a concept.

[Rynjin]

I still see them as opposites. If you don't, that's your business. Doesn't change how I see them.

This kind of affected apathy towards what other people think might seem more believable if both your other posts in this thread hadn't been aggressively contrarian for the sake of being contrary.

"Your opinions have only made me think the opposite of what you think more!"

"But I don't care about your opinion though..."

[paddyfool]

Does anyone else feel that Iron Fist sorely needs some kind of a mentor figure to knock him into shape in season 2? I don't particularly mind if it's Orson Randall (ideally played by some old school action movie actor if they'd take the role at an affordable rate - Dolph Lundgren or Van Damme would look the part, for instance, if they've still got the moves, but either might run the risk of taking over the series), or Lei Kung the Thunderer (ideally played by an old school Asian martial arts actor). Other things that would help: more physical training and martial arts instruction for Finn Jones; a generally more coherent plot arc; and better villains (Davos doesn't look like he's going to cut it, based on what we've seen so far, but there's room in the comic character's arc for a significant power up).

[FreddyNoNose]

Overall I enjoyed it. The last minute or so was disappointing but it is the story they want to tell.

[Beeliever]

Does anyone else feel that Iron Fist sorely needs some kind of a mentor figure to knock him into shape in season 2? I don't particularly mind if it's Orson Randall (ideally played by some old school action movie actor if they'd take the role at an affordable rate - Dolph Lundgren or Van Damme would look the part, for instance, if they've still got the moves, but either might run the risk of taking over the series), or Lei Kung the Thunderer (ideally played by an old school Asian martial arts actor). Other things that would help: more physical training and martial arts instruction for Finn Jones; a generally more coherent plot arc; and better villains (Davos doesn't look like he's going to cut it, based on what we've seen so far, but there's room in the comic character's arc for a significant power up).I would love if they brought in Orson Randall as a mentor character to just slap some sense into Danny. Lei Kung would work, but wouldn't make much sense, since he should have already slapped sense into Danny.

Davos might work as a miniboss-type character who survives past Season 2 to become the full-fledged Steel Serpent that we know and hate from the comics, but giving him his chi-stealing powers offscreen is kinda lame.

[Dr.Samurai]

It reinforces for me why Daredevil whispered to Danny to protect his city, but he gave his props to Luke and Jessica.
He told Danny because they are like minded with similar convictions about their roles in the city.

[Hopeless]

Can they use Shang Chi?😉

[Rynjin]

I would love if they brought in Orson Randall as a mentor character to just slap some sense into Danny. Lei Kung would work, but wouldn't make much sense, since he should have already slapped sense into Danny.

Davos might work as a miniboss-type character who survives past Season 2 to become the full-fledged Steel Serpent that we know and hate from the comics, but giving him his chi-stealing powers offscreen is kinda lame.

I mean, all his power-ups in the comics were given to him off-screen, why change tradition?

[Pex]

This kind of affected apathy towards what other people think might seem more believable if both your other posts in this thread hadn't been aggressively contrarian for the sake of being contrary.

"Your opinions have only made me think the opposite of what you think more!"

"But I don't care about your opinion though..."

I like what I like.

[Rynjin]

I like what I like.

Which is fine, but what is is that every post in your thread so far has been confrontational over the fact that other people DON'T.

Ranting about "Forum All Truth" and that other people disliking it somehow makes you like it more is just weird. You do you man, lord knows I like some stuff other people find to be garbage, but chill out about it.

[thorgrim29]

I liked it overall. I agree with most of the gripes about the villains and Iron Fist that people have aired so far so I won't go back into it too much. Outside of that here's what I thought:

Mostly good, a bit too dominated by Luke and Daredevil but that's to be expected since Finn Jones still can't convincingly fight and Jessica Jones is super strong but other than that is not really a fighter. I actually quite liked that they showed that. Once she punches you you're pretty much down for the count but since she's neither a trained fighter nor particularly though a competent opponent can handle her easily. The main non IF related issues I had with the fight scenes was that Luke seemed a bit underpowered. He's a basically invulnerable 6''3 heavily muscled former cage fighter/boxer who hits like a truck. I don't care how good a ninja somebody half his weight with no significant superpowers is they should be on the floor counting their broken bones in a few seconds. White Hat gets a pass for being a millennia-old master of pressure points but other than that...


Madame Gao: I still think making her a member of the Hand was a mistake... but even beyond that she was badly used here as basically a goon. Little old mystical ladies with vague powers are fine as masterminds who use violence only once in a few seasons in dark buildings, as goons they actually have to fight a lot and that just looks silly.

Sowande: No real issues here. I'm not sure why a guy with a very clear (if a bit vague) african accent would be at home in Harlem but whatever, they needed a tie-in for Luke and making him american wouldn't have meshed with the backstory

Murakami: Not sure why he was only speaking Japanese, that just seems rude. Also not sure why english is the Hands Lingua Franca in-universe... Other than that no big issues either. He's the Hand's master ninja, doesn't play well with others, and is an adrenaline junkie. Good enough for a bit character

Bakuto: I don't know why a clearly hispanic guy who we're supposed to believe is older than the portugese and spanish presence in Japan is running around with a name like Bakuto... Other that that, why wasn't he using his goon academy? Or were they all used up in Elektra's very wasteful training?

Alexandra: A huge waste of a legendary actress IMO. She was pretty menacing, implied to be tougher than the other fingers and acted circles around poor Finn Jones but then she just died before actually doing anything.

In general: Why did they accept Elektra as leader after she killed Alexandra? She doesn't appear to be particularly tougher than them, certainly not than the 4 of them at once, and they knew she didn't give a crap about the Hand. Also their "we serve life itself" motto is cool and all, and seemed to be setting them up that have started with a noble goal, but that didn't go anywhere. Finally, why are most of them based in or around NYC? Bakuto and Alexandra clearly are at least, even if Gao is a more recent arrival.


Finally, somebody mentioned the Constantinople/Istanbul thing. The city was officially renamed Istanbul in the 30s when they set up the current Republic of Turkey (even though I udnerstand it was colloquially known as Istanbul for a long time before), and everyone from there I've ever spoken to get really annoyed when they hear it called by it's old name. Alexandra's mistake was odd I agree, the restaurant owner's reaction seemed pretty authentic

[Rynjin]

A succinct explanation:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcze7EGorOk

[kinem]

Also their "we serve life itself" motto is cool and all, and seemed to be setting them up that have started with a noble goal, but that didn't go anywhere.

I'm pretty sure that it referred to their quest for personal immortality, thus being cool by sounding noble at first but actually being bad.

[Tvtyrant]

In general: Why did they accept Elektra as leader after she killed Alexandra? She doesn't appear to be particularly tougher than them, certainly not than the 4 of them at once, and they knew she didn't give a crap about the Hand. Also their "we serve life itself" motto is cool and all, and seemed to be setting them up that have started with a noble goal, but that didn't go anywhere.

Finally, why are most of them based in or around NYC? Bakuto and Alexandra clearly are at least, even if Gao is a more recent arrival.


Finally, somebody mentioned the Constantinople/Istanbul thing. The city was officially renamed Istanbul in the 30s when they set up the current Republic of Turkey (even though I udnerstand it was colloquially known as Istanbul for a long time before), and everyone from there I've ever spoken to get really annoyed when they hear it called by it's old name. Alexandra's mistake was odd I agree, the restaurant owner's reaction seemed pretty authentic

Because they were so close to the source and were vulnerable. She had settled their issues for them, and was offering them what they wanted anyway. Why fight a battle where you can die in RL when you can get what you want, then kill her when you are immortal?

They all moved there for the dragon bones. The Japanese man sent his right hand man instead of going himself until Nobu died, Bokuto was setting up connections to make extraction easier, Sowande was in Africa and was called in, and Alexandra was probably out of town until she found out that Nobu had got them the Black Sky.

[Erys]

Finally, somebody mentioned the Constantinople/Istanbul thing. The city was officially renamed Istanbul in the 30s when they set up the current Republic of Turkey (even though I udnerstand it was colloquially known as Istanbul for a long time before), and everyone from there I've ever spoken to get really annoyed when they hear it called by it's old name. Alexandra's mistake was odd I agree, the restaurant owner's reaction seemed pretty authentic

I assumed it was deliberate on her part.

She likely had been in the city and eaten that very dish when the city was still known as Constantinople; she just plays it off like a mistake as to not 'offend' the chef further.

[Eldan]

Was Bakuto's actor hispanic? I thought he looked a bit middle eastern.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah, the actor is hispanic. And Bakuto is leader of the Hand in South America in the comics.

[Friv]

Bakuto: I don't know why a clearly hispanic guy who we're supposed to believe is older than the portugese and spanish presence in Japan is running around with a name like Bakuto...

I mean, we might as well ask how a clearly hispanic guy is a founding member of a millenia-old organization when the Hispanic ethnicity didn't exist until the merging of Spanish colonist and indigenous peoples in the 1500s-1700s.

Which I would actually like to ask. What the heck is up with Bakuto? Maybe he's a time traveller.

(On the bright side, looking up his name led me to discover that the bakuto were itinerant gamblers who gradually organized into one of the two groups that later merged to become the Yakuza, so it's a pretty cool name stylistically.)

[Legato Endless]

Inexplicable time travel would be fitting considering he seems to have wandered out of a Syfy original series with that line delivery.

Caahhleeen!

[JeenLeen]

Did it seem to anybody else that, in Jessica Jones, Jessica's powers were superstrength and (some) super-durability, maybe some accelerated healing, and Luke Cage just had incredible super-durability?

In Luke Cage, he definitely had superstrength as well, but I don't remember him being stronger than a muscular dude would be in Jessica Jones. As noted earlier in this thread, it's hard to tell who is stronger in Defenders.

---
All in all, I enjoyed the show but mainly agree with others here. It feels like the Fingers weren't special, beyond Madame Gao. Some cool characterization, but they were just ninjas++ in a fight, as far as I could tell.

[Eldan]

I'll stick with my headcanon that he's Persian or Egyptian, even if the Actor isn't.

[thorgrim29]

Inexplicable time travel would be fitting considering he seems to have wandered out of a Syfy original series with that line delivery.

Caahhleeen!

Well, time travel, parallel universes and a samurai-inspired culture inexplicably big on swordplay are a thing in Dark Matter sooooooo

[GloatingSwine]

In Luke Cage, he definitely had superstrength as well, but I don't remember him being stronger than a muscular dude would be in Jessica Jones. As noted earlier in this thread, it's hard to tell who is stronger in Defenders.


The Luke Cage/Defenders presentation is closer to Luke's strength in the comics. He does have quite high end super strength.

[Dr.Samurai]

Did it seem to anybody else that, in Jessica Jones, Jessica's powers were superstrength and (some) super-durability, maybe some accelerated healing, and Luke Cage just had incredible super-durability?

In Luke Cage, he definitely had superstrength as well, but I don't remember him being stronger than a muscular dude would be in Jessica Jones. As noted earlier in this thread, it's hard to tell who is stronger in Defenders.
Luke was always portrayed as super strong. The actor does that thing where he doesn't move any other part of his body but his arm when he tosses guys or knocks them down. That's to portray that he's using nothing but his shoulder rotation and maybe some bicep (essentially) to move hundreds of pounds lol. And then of course, he tears metal apart.

Jessica never had increased durability. Though it's tough sometimes because characters portrayed in tv and movies take enough hits to kill someone without even getting bruised. Case in point, see Matt and Elektra at the end of Defenders lol.

In Defenders, both Luke and Jessica seem to have their powers muted considerably (car and elevator scene aside). The ninjas take their punches pretty well. I got the impression that a guy probably shouldn't stand back up if Jessica punches them, let alone Luke. But maybe she was holding back as well. They called that out with Luke, but not with her.

[Rynjin]

Did it seem to anybody else that, in Jessica Jones, Jessica's powers were superstrength and (some) super-durability, maybe some accelerated healing, and Luke Cage just had incredible super-durability?

In Luke Cage, he definitely had superstrength as well, but I don't remember him being stronger than a muscular dude would be in Jessica Jones. As noted earlier in this thread, it's hard to tell who is stronger in Defenders.

He seemed pretty strong in JJ to me, busting through walls and stuff.

Cage comics-wise has always had a bit of super strength. Enough to lift a car, if not throw it, at the low end. He's gotten a bunch of power boosts over the years until he's now in the "easily lifts multi-ton weights" range. As of one of his most recent appearances, he is absolutely stronger than Jessica (https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/e/e0/Luke_Cage_%28Earth-616%29_from_New_Avengers_Vol_2_10_001.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151130053725) (that's her he's talking to).

[Thufir]

Did it seem to anybody else that, in Jessica Jones, Jessica's powers were superstrength and (some) super-durability, maybe some accelerated healing, and Luke Cage just had incredible super-durability?

In Luke Cage, he definitely had superstrength as well, but I don't remember him being stronger than a muscular dude would be in Jessica Jones.

No, he definitely had super-strength (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bkSzyIeTMU#t=1m48s) in Jessica Jones (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2RivIH2wtk) as well.

[Red Fel]

Even setting aside whether Bakuto's ethnicity existed when the Hand ostensibly formed - let alone the origins of his name - my question is how this whole team existed in the first place. How exactly a Caucasian woman, an African man, an Hispanic (?) man, a Chinese woman, and a Japanese man all came to the same mystical Himalayan temple-city at the same time.

First off, there are logistical issues. I mean, Gao may have been born there, or nearby, but how did, say, Sowande get there? Africa is a whole continent away, and that was a challenging trek even a few centuries ago, let alone longer. And it's a mystical city hidden deep within snowy mountains - mountains that are treacherous now, with the advancements in mountaineering technology we possess today. So how did people get there?

Second, how did they know about it? Some of Alexandra's dialogue suggests that she sought out K'un-L'un after losing her daughter - sought it out, as in, she knew that it existed. Again, mystical city, dangerous mountains, and it only appears once every so many years - so how did they even know to go there?

Danny Rand being the token white guy who gets taken in by the monks and trained, we can suspend our disbelief. But to hear that a whole bunch of people got the same treatment? Particularly after that bunch went rogue, you'd think K'un-L'un would become murderously paranoid and just kill any outsider.

Which leads us to another point - racial tensions. Specifically, those between mainland China and Japan, which have historically pretty much always been a thing. The earliest written reference to Japan in Chinese histories places the former among the "Eastern Barbarians," and calls the nation by a perjorative word meaning "dwarf." It also starts around roughly 57 CE, which means that our earliest written knowledge of relations between China and Japan are roughly two thousand years old, and China wasn't a fan. Relations between the nations were infrequent at best for several centuries, after which Japan was placed in a more subservient commercial position. And we needn't get into the tensions between the two in modernity. So, why, exactly, did a mystical city on the mainland decide to admit an "Eastern Barbarian" wolf-mutilator from the dwarf island nation?

I mean, Bakuto being hypothetically Hispanic is really only the tip of a very complicated iceberg. I love the idea of the Hand being composed of, in essence, evil ninja Planeteers, but the sheer logistics of them all knowing about K'un-L'un, coming together from all over the globe, successfully finding and entering K'un-L'un, forming a like-minded organization while in K'un-L'un, going into exile together, and neatly dividing up their duties across the globe, are just perplexing. How did they all get there? Why did K'un-L'un allow them entry? Why do they get along? The aesthetics are nice, but the logistics are lacking.

[thorgrim29]

There was trade between Asia and the Middle-East/Europe in Roman times, probably even before that... I could see mystical monks who aren't defending against ninja Planeteers yet attracting knowledge seekers from all over Eurasia and Africa. It would probably take you years to get there and you would probably die (and learn a ton of new languages) along the way, but once you make it there you've definitely proved you really want to learn.

[Spojaz]

Maybe those aren't all their original bodies? Perhaps the Hand's quest for eternal life had sent them down more roads than just life extension and dangerous resurrection. Body snatching seems to fit their M.O., Perhaps Gao seems older than the rest because she didn't try the experiment to "trade up" like the rest of them.

Eh, headcannon anyway.

[Sapphire Guard]

Eh, there's enough supertech and meddling in human history in this universe by the likes of the Kree and the Asgardians that getting to the right continent isn't so very impossible.

[Friv]

Yeah...

The idea that the Hand are multi-ethnic works nicely when they're an evil global ninja organization; over time, as they expand into each new area of the world, they recruit aggressively from the locals, until eventually their five leaders are natives of the five areas that they're most active in. That would have worked, and would even have been a very logical reason for each of the five to be from somewhere different.

Reverse-engineering it for those five to all be founding members really plays havoc with the premise.

It's possible that they started with body-stealing, and, say, Bakuto was originally from K'un L'un and that's why he has a Japanese name, but I get grumpy when I have to invent reasons for your story to make sense.

[Waker]

Evil Planeteers
My theory for it is that K'un Lun and other mystic organizations like the group that Dr. Strange belonged to let people in the know travel about and spread knowledge around the world a bit easier. There are a few clues to support the idea, such as the three sanctums located in China, England and America. And even though Iron Fists are supposed to just guard K'un Lun, at least one had to travel to New York to seal the dragon graveyard. So its possible that the Fingers had some way to cheat the distance and if not outright teleport, at least traverse great distances rapidly when they first came to K'un Lun.
That's just my guess. As I've said before, I really don't like ancient, mystic organizations since they tend to have logistical problems like this, amongst others.

[Jeivar]

I just finished the series a few minutes ago.

Overall, I quite liked it, though I have some quibbles. The action was good, and the heroes interacting were my favourite bits. But I was a bit disappointed in the Hand.

After all of Stick's doomsaying about how vital his war is and how much a menace the Hand posed, their ultimate plan was just to let five crime bosses live forever. I mean, their comic version is connected to demonic forces, and I figured something of the kind lay at the bottom of that hole. But no. Dragon bones.

Meh.

Also, I felt Jessica's super strength was really inconsistently portrayed. It seems she should have sent a ninja flying with each blow.


Also, I was really hoping for a Punisher appearance. At least a cameo. I'm pretty sure a few rifle rounds would have made everyone's lives a lot easier.

[afroakuma]

Also, I was really hoping for a Punisher appearance. At least a cameo. I'm pretty sure a few rifle rounds would have made everyone's lives a lot easier.

I think it was Wikipedia that had him listed in the cast prior to airing. I was incredibly disappointed when that didn't pan out.

[Waker]

I think it was Wikipedia that had him listed in the cast prior to airing. I was incredibly disappointed when that didn't pan out.

Maybe we'll see him again in the sequel, Defenders 2: The Search For More Money.

[Hopeless]

Remember from Dr Strange they had that ability to travel into another dimension where they could limit the damage they could do with magic?

I think that's where the ninja who attacked Jessica went when she threw him over that bannister?

Throw in some version of sling rings that can't let them return home and you have their means of travel sorted!

Now who doesn't want Baron Mordo turning up to take the piss out of IF?😉

[Kyberwulf]

Okay.

SO about the guys defending the Gateway, and not needing Luke Cage. I don't really think there is enough evidence to sway one way or another. I mean, all we see is a shut gateway, and some bodies by the doors. Who is to say that the City held off the Hand at all. Could be that the most of the Hand made it in, and the city guys were just barely able to keep them out of the city, but the had was able to stay inside the gate. The gate closed and that's .. could be why there seems to be, not an army of hands.

My thoughts on the show are...

I liked it. The pacing of the show is finally were it needed to be. I mean the failing of the individual series were that they were trying to cram in to much story, because they were trying to play catch up with Daredevil season 1. IN Defenders, it was good that they didn't seem to have to pack in so much exposition.

About the characters, I liked them all... Yeah, you know what's coming... except Jessica Jones. Of all the characters, she was the only one that didn't fit in too well. She was the only one that it seemed like the Plot had to hook up a chain to her neck and drag her along.. Like she was saying "I don't want to be here" and the plot was all like..."You HAVE to be, we made a big deal about having you in the Defenders!!!! Besides.. You are the only GIRL on the team. You HAVE to be here so we can fill in that quota!"... I would have liked to have seem Colleen or Misty take on the "Girl" on the time. I mean Cage has Jessica beat on the strength... and even Jessica said it herself, She is the only one that doesn't know kung fu. I mean, the part she should have fulfilled, being a detective, seemed to be not needed, as all the clues seemed to be wasted by everyone being lead to the same place. I think Misty would have served as a good foil by being the only normie on the team, or Colleen being an extra set of hands and feet and a sword. I mean, Jessica should have only been in there in a secondary role. Maybe protection the B roll characters, Foggy and Trish and all those guys. Maybe to jump in to provide extra muscles at the end. The only real moment for Jessica seemed to be the part were she walked out at the Restaurant. Before she was forced by "Plot" to come back.

I know it seems like I don't like Jessica Jones. I like her character, it just seems like she is being wasted in crappy stories, or pushed into roles that don't seem to suit her character.


ON the other hand. I think Spider-man would make a great addition to the team. I think he would relish being picked for a team of heroes. Although it's not the A team.... The D team would be cool to him. It kind of sucks the movies won't interact with the Netflix. Spiderman, out of all the Marvel movies... would have the most run in with the Defenders cast,. including Punisher.

[Velaryon]

I really like the "Defenders as an RPG campaign" idea. Thanks for that!

Anyway, I enjoyed the show while watching, but it doesn't hold up too well to critical thought, which is unfortunate. Most of the complaints I have are those that have already been stated:

1. Villains mostly didn't seem threatening enough, and their motivations were sometimes unclear or nonsensical.
2. Jessica's super strength seems to come and go frequently, and on the whole she felt somewhat depowered from when we last saw her.
3. Elektra's motivations after killing Alexandra don't make a damn bit of sense to me, but then she's frequently portrayed inconsistently, which I think is supposed to show her as a conflicted character. Comes off more than a bit clumsy to me though.
4. Lots of idiot balls to carry around, most prominently by Danny, Daredevil, and Misty (on behalf of the NYPD)


i didnt hate it (binged the whole thing yesterday) but it also didnt feel like a great superheroes-come-together story.

Also a real shame that literaly all the jokes in the 8 episodes were in the trailers allready.

It seems to me that the art of making good trailers is a rapidly disappearing one. Many trailers give away too many good moments or tell you too much, so that when you actually see the whole series (or film), you feel like you've already been there and done that. One more reason why I tend to avoid trailers as much as possible.


Can I ask a question of any New Yorkers in the Playground? Is the city really that big a presence in US culture? Like, in Luke Cage, Luke, native to Georgia and until recently working in Hell's Kitchen, was making speeches about how great Harlem was? Is it really so iconic to so many of its inhabitants?

New York certainly seems to think so. And since Marvel is based in New York as well, it seems to be reflected in their comics quite a bit.

[Legato Endless]

New York certainly seems to think so. And since Marvel is based in New York as well, it seems to be reflected in their comics quite a bit.

For example... (https://youtu.be/xZdrzOdd8Kw?t=2m)

[paddyfool]

Probably the fact that a lot of the golden age marvel comics were written in New York by new Yorkers may have had something to do with this.

[Sapphire Guard]

Biggest issue with the show seems to be that they didn't have the budget to live up up to how the hand were built up.

[Lector87]

Biggest issue with the show seems to be that they didn't have the budget to live up up to how the hand were built up.

The Hand have been dreary and uninspiring since they were introduced, sadly.

[Rynjin]

If they'd set things up a bit more before having the Hand go full ninja assault it may have made them spookier. All the little nods to the various comics in enemies they made could have been turned into further exploration of those, with a reveal that the hand was pulling their strings. Instead of us seeing the Hand's "elite scary fighters" getting the **** beat out of them for two seasons of Daredevil first we would have seen powerful, intimidating enemies (if done right) like The Bride of Nine Spiders (she's supposed to be a living hive of spiders, and Iron Fists' equal in martial arts), Zhou Cheng (the drunken master from Iron Fist...he's supposed to be a Chi eating half-dragon-half-man thing), Bushmaster (he's supposed to be...competent), Kingpin, etc. in each of the individual series', and then introduced the Hand who they all, if not work for, recognize, respect, and fear.

This keeps the Hand's mystique, with a few hints throw in the other series' as to their presence and influence. Then when they finally begin operating mostly openly in The Defenders it'd be an actual "OH ****" moment instead of "Yeah...they've done this before, basically. Except this time they have five semi-immortal chumps on their side, most of whom get punked out hardcore without accomplishing much of anything. Yawn."