Pseudotarrasque

[Drakevarg]

Tangentially related to my previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533713-Tarrasque-on-the-Western-Front), I have a sort of a reverse CharOp challenge to think about:

Aside from the "miracle or wish" kill clause, what feats, templates and other (preferably minimally cheesy) tricks would best allow a Mountain Landwyrm to replicate the abilities of a Tarrasque?

I'll leave it open to your own interpretation as to what that actually means. Don't worry too much about CR, since neither creature is terribly effective for their supposed level. If a different base creature would be better suited for the task (as in, can more or less be slotted into the Tarrasque's "role," not just something that can outperform it in every respect like a dragon), feel free to point it out.

As for me, so far all I can think of is the Spell-Warped template (closest I can get to replicated the Tarrasque's carapace) and as many feats that stack on Fast Healing, resistances and immunities as can fit in 40 HD.

Main reason for this experiment is because I want to figure out a way to make a non-unique Tarrasque-like species that would not, at minimum, require the setting to be littered with containment facilities for every single specimen that wandered too close to civilizaton.

[unseenmage]

One of the Dragon magazines had a Kaiju template that can turn random creatures into serviceable Terrasques.

Applying it to Big T itself is fun too, of course.

[ColorBlindNinja]

One of the Dragon magazines had a Kaiju template that can turn random creatures into serviceable Terrasques.

Applying it to Big T itself is fun too, of course.

Do you remember which issue that was?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Issue #289.

OK, thanks. Was that 3.0?

[ShurikVch]

Kaiju template is limited by the size of creature to which it may be applied - no bigger than Huge, thus Big T is illegal (Gargantuan creatures still work - if combined with Dungeonbred template)

[ColorBlindNinja]

Dragon Magazine issues switched to 3.5 at #309, so yes.

Ah, I see, thank you for telling me that.

[unseenmage]

Kaiju template is limited by the size of creature to which it may be applied - no bigger than Huge, thus Big T is illegal (Gargantuan creatures still work - if combined with Dungeonbred template)

Back when we did the thing we were newbies who more interested in whether we could than should.

We also layered on the ELH Paragon and Pseudonatural templates too.

IIRC we actually ran out of superpowers to give the thing off the Kaiju template lists.

[Inevitability]

Kaiju template is limited by the size of creature to which it may be applied - no bigger than Huge, thus Big T is illegal (Gargantuan creatures still work - if combined with Dungeonbred template)

There's a web article that says the same template can be applied multiple times, so a Dungeonbred Dungeonbred Kaiju Tarrasque would technically be rules-legal.

[ColorBlindNinja]

There's a web article that says the same template can be applied multiple times, so a Dungeonbred Dungeonbred Kaiju Tarrasque would technically be rules-legal.

Can you link the article? Or at least tell us what it's called?

[Inevitability]

Can you link the article? Or at least tell us what it's called?

Here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070608a) it is said.


Okay, so applying the chimeric template from Monster Manual II to a chimera may seem odd, but it's perfectly legal. You can add a template more than once to the same creature as long as it continues to qualify. Some serious magical genetic experimentation is required, so this might well be a unique creature.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070608a) it is said.

Thanks, that's good to know.

[ShurikVch]

IIRC we actually ran out of superpowers to give the thing off the Kaiju template lists.How?
By my calculation, to "ran out of superpowers" for Kaiju, you will need 118 HD
So: 48 (Tarrasque) +40 (Kaiju) +25 (Titanic Creature - assuming it was similarly misunderstood/hanwaved) +1 (Warbeast) +1 (Beast of Xvim) = 115.
Where you got another 3? Are you also slapped Lycanthrope on it? Or just arbitrarily given Big T +HDs?

Also, you can't apply Kaiju to Gargantuan/Colossal creatures not because it's forbidden, but because the template just don't have necessarily values listed: this way, you will get "ERROR!" when try to calculate it's new physical ability scores (mental ones are "same enough" to extrapolate) and Armor Class


Here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070608a) it is said.This thing is hilariously incorrect:
If it was true, then you should be able to make awesome arcanists out of Giants with Primordial Giant template (N times), and very good thieves via repeated use of "Unseelie Fey" templates
Why then Evolved Undead template says: "Unlike most templates, an evolved undead can potentially acquire this template more than once"?
Half-Dragon, Half-Fiend variants, and (technically) various different instances of Lycanthrope can be applied to the same - creature because, by the RAW, every application is a different template
Chimeric Creature template is, actually, illegal for Chimera - it required "animal, beast, or vermin"; Chimera is Magical Beast :smallsigh: (and no - it's not the same as "Beast" - this type doesn't exist in 3.5).

[Inevitability]

This thing is hilariously incorrect:
If it was true, then you should be able to make awesome arcanists out of Giants with Primordial Giant template (N times), and very good thieves via repeated use of "Unseelie Fey" templates
Why then Evolved Undead template says: "Unlike most templates, an evolved undead can potentially acquire this template more than once"?
Half-Dragon, Half-Fiend variants, and (technically) various different instances of Lycanthrope can be applied to the same - creature because, by the RAW, every application is a different template
Chimeric Creature template is, actually, illegal for Chimera - it required "animal, beast, or vermin"; Chimera is Magical Beast :smallsigh: (and no - it's not the same as "Beast" - this type doesn't exist in 3.5).

1. 'If this is true the game would be unbalanced' is kind of a poor argument. We're talking about 3.5 here, remember? That's like saying Candles of Invocation can't be used to summon efreeti because otherwise you'd get free wishes.

2. Libris Mortis is from 2004. The article is from 2007. I'm fairly sure more recent sources take precedence.

3. Would you happen to have any citations that confirm that the templates can be applied multiple times for this and only this reason?

4. WotC makes a mistake that happens to be in the same article as a rule, so what? Just because every sample NPC statblock has errors doesn't mean the prestige classes they're meant to showcase can't be used: similar logic should apply here.

[ShurikVch]

Would you happen to have any citations that confirm that the templates can be applied multiple times for this and only this reason?Actually, yes - I can: "Same sources don't stack." Good enough?


WotC makes a mistake that happens to be in the same article as a rule, so what?It's showing us how well Robert Wiese understood the rules.
If he even incapable to comprehend the very rules of template he just attempting to apply, then - should we really trust him when he introducing to us certain new, never-seen-before(-or-after) rule?

[unseenmage]

How?
By my calculation, to "ran out of superpowers" for Kaiju, you will need 118 HD
So: 48 (Tarrasque) +40 (Kaiju) +25 (Titanic Creature - assuming it was similarly misunderstood/hanwaved) +1 (Warbeast) +1 (Beast of Xvim) = 115.
Where you got another 3? Are you also slapped Lycanthrope on it? Or just arbitrarily given Big T +HDs?

Also, you can't apply Kaiju to Gargantuan/Colossal creatures not because it's forbidden, but because the template just don't have necessarily values listed: this way, you will get "ERROR!" when try to calculate it's new physical ability scores (mental ones are "same enough" to extrapolate) and Armor Class
...
It has been a VERY long time so honestly, I've no idea.

We likely extrapolated the missing values. IIRC we wound up homebrewing the extra superpowers too.

[Inevitability]

Actually, yes - I can: "Same sources don't stack." Good enough?

It's showing us how well Robert Wiese understood the rules.
If he even incapable to comprehend the very rules of template he just attempting to apply, then - should we really trust him when he introducing to us certain new, never-seen-before(-or-after) rule?

1. Let me counter that quotation with a quotation: "Specific beats general." The specific rule that templates can be applied multiple times beats the general rule that the same source doesn't stack.

2. News flash: tons of D&D books introduce rules that are only mentioned in that book, and tons of times their designers had a similarly poor grasp of the rules. If you want to discredit this rule for such a reason, you'll have to do the same to a lot of others.

[ShurikVch]

1. Let me counter that quotation with a quotation: "Specific beats general." The specific rule that templates can be applied multiple times beats the general rule that the same source doesn't stack.Yes, technically, you can...
You just don't get any benefits from it (or, for that matter, drawbacks)
Templates which are may be applied more than once - such as aforementioned Evolved Undead - always have a RAW which says they're stacks

Also, multiple application of the same template is - in the most cases - just stupid: "One Half is Red Dragon, and the other half is Red Dragon too!" Seriously?
Thus - you can be twice-Evolved Undead, but you can't be, say, twice-Werebear

Oh, and this thing not even worded in a way suggesting it's actually "beats general". Some templates give variable benefits/drawbacks. For example, repeated application of Unseelie Fey may get you both Blindsight and Tremorsense - it doesn't interfere with stacking rules, thus - doesn't need to change the general rule


2. News flash: tons of D&D books introduce rules that are only mentioned in that book, and tons of times their designers had a similarly poor grasp of the rules. If you want to discredit this rule for such a reason, you'll have to do the same to a lot of others.Books have better editing quality than online articles (Skip Williams! :smallwink:)
Also, it wasn't even worded in a way suggesting it's a new rule. If it was - than it will be completely OK
Instead, the sentence suggesting the rule in question already exists. (Maybe, it was... At Robert's table :smallamused:)

[Inevitability]

Yes, technically, you can...
You just don't get any benefits from it (or, for that matter, drawbacks)
Templates which are may be applied more than once - such as aforementioned Evolved Undead - always have a RAW which says they're stacks

Also, multiple application of the same template is - in the most cases - just stupid: "One Half is Red Dragon, and the other half is Red Dragon too!" Seriously?
Thus - you can be twice-Evolved Undead, but you can't be, say, twice-Werebear

Oh, and this thing not even worded in a way suggesting it's actually "beats general". Some templates give variable benefits/drawbacks. For example, repeated application of Unseelie Fey may get you both Blindsight and Tremorsense - it doesn't interfere with stacking rules, thus - doesn't need to change the general rule

Books have better editing quality than online articles (Skip Williams! :smallwink:)
Also, it wasn't even worded in a way suggesting it's a new rule. If it was - than it will be completely OK
Instead, the sentence suggesting the rule in question already exists. (Maybe, it was... At Robert's table :smallamused:)

1. As said before, 'the game would be stupid/silly/unbalanced if the rule was X, therefore it is not X' is a fallacy. It's a game where you can make shambling undead corpses out of gaseous monsters, where a couple of skilled thieves can nonmagically move at infinite speed, or where a legendary warrior can't kill a swarm of spiders: half-dragon half-dragons are quite tame compared to that.


2. IMO it is stated in a way implying it is a new rule. "You can apply a template to a creature multiple times." isn't that different from "You can make sleight of hand checks as a free action by taking a -20 penalty on the check."

[ShurikVch]

Ah, found it:
Adding the chimeric template to a lion results in a chimera as described in the Monster Manual. (That monster is considered to already have the chimeric template.)Thus, he's just advocated the very possibility of existence for Chimeric Chimera - nothing more, nothing less (and certainly - not a "new rule")
(Also, Ankheg was a Beast in 3.0 - thus legal for Chimeric Creature template; Chimera is a Magical Beast - even in 3.0)