New to 3.5...

[Hypersmith]

But I'm pumped to get into it. Jeez there's a lot of books. So I wanted some help realizing my character concept, we start at level 2.
I wanted to make someone who has lived as a political/royal scoundrel, doing the dirty work for his liege, poisoning, killing, interrogations, skulking, etc. Rogue seems logical as a base class. How about prestige class, and when should I dip (also what feats should I not miss.)? I'm looking to keep it fairly straightforwards, but I imagine my character being good at keeping out of the limelight while doing his thing (poison, assassin, interrogate being the core.) To the extent I've read, I think poisoner prestige class works best.
Appreciate the help guys :smallbiggrin:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Two key Rogue feats are Craven (Champions of Ruin) and Darkstalker (Lords of Madness). The former lets you add your class level to sneak attack damage, while the latter lets you hide from exotic senses, like scent and tremorsense. Able Learner (Races of Destiny) is great if you want to multiclass, as it basically removes the penalty for cross-class skills.

For a good straightforward Rogue-y build, I suggest going Rogue 1/Swashbuckler (Compete Warrior) 3/Rogue +2/Swashbuckler +17, with the Daring Outlaw feat (Compete Scoundrel) at 6th. That feat lets you stack your Rogue levels with your d10, full-BAB Swashbuckler levels for sneak attack damage. The final build gets you tons of sneak attack, plenty of skill points, and a strong combat chassis to work with.

Another option, if available, is the Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. It's magic-tinted martial artist type, who has plenty of skill points and a wide variety of snazzy special moves, ranging from simple "I stab you, but harder" to intense "I bend like a reed and throw you across the battlefield with my aikido" to full-on "I teleport through the shadows." It's that last bit that makes it a great sneak-- they get a ton of abilities that let them turn invisible, teleport, walk on walls and the like. They're also pretty straightforward to build and interesting to play.

[Soranar]

A rogue is not a bad choice, though power wise it can be a bit underwhelming.

At lower levels, a ninja can be ok but it tends to be slightly weaker than a rogue in melee.

A factotum (slight improvement on a rogue) can be great with poisons because of his ability to pump a skill once a day.

A beguiler is essentially a magic rogue (without sneak attack) but it's far more versatile.

An urban druid (bit obscure class but it's not 3rd party because of an official reprint) is much tougher than a beguiler but it lacks trapfinding. It does get a LOT of urban options, it's more like a mix of the bard's social abilities combined with a druid's incredible chassis.

If you plan on using prestige classes, the best assassin type/special agent is probably a chameleon. Power wise it depends on system mastery but it is very good. There is a handbook for it, just google "chameleon handbook".

[Crake]

A quick question: Has your character stopped working for your lord at all, upon joining with the other players? The way you describe it, it sounds like a past tense sort of thing. If so, then you should consider that he got to level 2 doing those things, but that doesn't necessarily need to dictate his future path, since it seems almost like you're getting levels to justify things your character did in his backstory after beginning play.

Now, of course, obviously you want to go down the path of playing a poisoner from the shadows sort of character, and that's totally cool, though you might want to consider convincing your DM to use some pathfinder material, especially the master alchemist feat, which allows you to actually craft your own poisons in a timely manner. The alchemist pathfinder base class is also not a bad option in this case, and there is the vivisectionist archetype which allows you to trade out the alchemist's bomb ability for sneak attack instead, to keep more in theme with a rogue. Alchemist also gets, innately poison use at level 2 (which works perfectly for your character's entry, having already worked with poisons before), and swift alchemy at level 3, allowing them to apply a poison as a move action instead of a standard action, and also halving the time it takes for them to craft alchemical items, including poisons, which combos really well with the master alchemist feat I mentioned earlier.

Pathfinder also has the incredible poisoned sand tube (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/poisoned-sand-tube/), which is amazing for aoe poison applying, and works for contact and inhaled poisons, the latter of which you would otherwise rarely have the opportunity to use in standard combat.

If you want to/must stick to 3.5, the master of poisons feat from drow of the underdark simultaneously gives you poison use to avoid poisoning yourself, and allows you to apply poisons as a swift action, so it's pretty vital if you want to use posions.

[Nifft]

But I'm pumped to get into it. Jeez there's a lot of books. So I wanted some help realizing my character concept, we start at level 2.
I wanted to make someone who has lived as a political/royal scoundrel, doing the dirty work for his liege, poisoning, killing, interrogations, skulking, etc. Rogue seems logical as a base class. How about prestige class, and when should I dip (also what feats should I not miss.)? I'm looking to keep it fairly straightforwards, but I imagine my character being good at keeping out of the limelight while doing his thing (poison, assassin, interrogate being the core.) To the extent I've read, I think poisoner prestige class works best.
Appreciate the help guys :smallbiggrin:

What are the other characters in your party, and how experienced are the other players?

Knowing that will help us figure out how much optimization and/or cheese you might want.

[KillianHawkeye]

I suggest going Rogue 1/Swashbuckler (Compete Warrior) 3/Rogue +2/Swashbuckler +17

FYI, this is 23 levels........

[Eldariel]

Two key Rogue feats are Craven (Champions of Ruin) and Darkstalker (Lords of Madness). The former lets you add your class level to sneak attack damage, while the latter lets you hide from exotic senses, like scent and tremorsense. Able Learner (Races of Destiny) is great if you want to multiclass, as it basically removes the penalty for cross-class skills.

For a good straightforward Rogue-y build, I suggest going Rogue 1/Swashbuckler (Compete Warrior) 3/Rogue +2/Swashbuckler +17, with the Daring Outlaw feat (Compete Scoundrel) at 6th. That feat lets you stack your Rogue levels with your d10, full-BAB Swashbuckler levels for sneak attack damage. The final build gets you tons of sneak attack, plenty of skill points, and a strong combat chassis to work with.

Re: Swashbuckler/Rogue
That's basically just a Swashbuckler with Sneak Attack. Rogue is defined by his skills and thus I'd go at most Swashbuckler 4/Rogue 16. Rogue also gets some sweet special abilities higher up, making a single-classed Rogue a very reasonable choice. Though yes, for an assassin/poisoner-type, I'd also consider Swordsage, or a Rogue/Swordsage multiclass. The big advantage of Swordsage-type classes is that they make getting full attack much easier (and if you rely on precision damage like Sneak Attack, you want as many attacks each round as possible so two-weapon fighting and full attacks are really important to you).

Idea: Ranger
My signature features a campaign journal involving a Ranger Poisoner if that's your cup of tea. Rangers are great in spite of not having Sneak Attack; full BAB and combat style enable them to be competent melee combatants and ranged combatants and they pick up stuff like Hide in Plain Sight eventually, and they get minor spellcasting which further enhances their subsequent combat prowess and especially utility (up to you how much you focus on it, but being able to use Wands of Cure Light Wounds post-combat to heal up is very useful for when operating self-sufficiently).

Hide in Plain Sight:
Far as Hide in Plane Sight is concerned, normal Rogue doesn't get it but Wilderness Rogues (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wildernessRogue) can - you can pick it up by level 13, taking Camouflage at 10. Lists of Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454553-Lists-of-Stuff-(saved-from-Wizards-Community-Forums)) features a rather complete list of how to acquire it: some Prestige Classes such as Shadowdancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm) give it on level 1, making for decent dip ideas (that is, only take 1 level).

Poisoning:
Either way, Master of Poisons [Drow of the Underdark] is a must-have feat for a poisoner who actually plans on using poisoned weapons, and for non-caster ones, so is the Craft: Poisonmaking skill (poisons are hideously expensive in the long run unless you produce them through magic or yourself). The two source books that most cover this topic are Drow of the Underdark (don't worry, the options in the book are available to everybody) and Complete Scoundrel (which also features skill tricks and other sweet stuff). I suggest you get acquainted with those with your character concept. Other than that

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I haven't seen any mention of races yet, so I'll recommend Whisper Gnome in Races of Stone. They're small size (+4 Hide) but still have a 30 ft. land speed, they get an extra +4 to Hide and Move Silently and +2 to Listen and Spot, along with both low-light vision and darkvision. They get ideal ability score bonuses for this type of character, since you'll want Dex > Int > Con > everything else can be at 10.


Rogue is a decent class, and you don't necessarily need to multiclass or take a prestige class, though it's often recommended for increased versatility and/or to help maximize your character's strengths. It really depends on how you want to play the character, and what you enjoy playing in general. You're new to 3.5, but what other games have you played? In 3.5 it's fairly easy to put the right skills on a very wide variety of different characters. Do you prefer a scrappy character who gets in close, or do you prefer to keep your distance in combat? Do you want to deal damage, or use magic to disable foes or even turn them against each other? Or perhaps a combination of a few of those?

For a scrappy melee character without magic of their own, going Rogue (or the Wilderness Rogue variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) from Unearthed Arcana for Hide in Plain Sight) is probably the most straightforward option. Take two-weapon fighting, but don't bother with the improved or greater versions, and don't even consider two-weapon defense. You'll need Weapon Finesse since you want a much higher Dex than Str, which you can't take at 1st level since it requires a +1 BAB, but if you can take a character flaw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (UA) you can get a feat at 2nd level to get that, as it's still during character creation. I would take either murky-eyed or vulnerable, as they'll have the least drawback both immediately and in the long term. In this case you want to put max skill ranks in Use Magic Device so you can use wands and scrolls when necessary, it's probably not going to help you at the current level but it's a long term investment. Plan to pick up Gloves of the Balanced Hand in Magic Item Compendium, and two Swords of Subtlety (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety). Craven significantly increases your damage when sneak attacking, and Darkstalker is absolutely necessary for any sneaky character.

For a character who keeps their distance, Rogue isn't really a great choice in practice because your damage will range from lackluster to negligible. You'll need a decent Strength as well as Dex, since composite bows and high Str will be a very significant portion of your damage output. Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) gets +2 Str and Dex, -2 Con and Int, and proficiency with longbows. The Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) variant (UA, can be combined with Wilderness Rogue) is preferred, as archery requires a lot of feats up front and offers little opportunity for sneak attacks, but you'll definitely want to multiclass in this case for access to Weapon Specialization and Ranged Weapon Mastery (PH2). A Fighter (Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug)) 4 dip is an obvious path to this, but Warblade 6 can also accomplish this, as can Pious Templar 3 (CD) but that wouldn't be a good fit. Warblade in Tome of Battle will give you some fantastic special abilities in the maneuvers and stances, so that's what I would go with. You'll need Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, probably Improved Rapid Shot (CW), Weapon Focus/Specialization: Longbow (and composite versions), and Ranged Weapon Mastery. Craven isn't going to do anything here, but Darkstalker is still necessary.

As an alternative to the above archer character, consider a Swordsage 2/ Soulknife 2/ Swordsage 1/ Soulbow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2), in this case you'll want Wisdom to be as high as possible. You can use two-weapon fighting with the mind arrows so have Dex 15+ to be able to take that, but if your Wisdom is significantly higher than your Dex you'll want to take Zen Archery (CW). This is a great doesn't-appear-to-be-armed type of character, especially if you take the Unarmed Swordsage variant that's outlined in the class description. You'll need Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Woodland Archer (RotW), and of course Darkstalker.

For a spellcaster who doesn't defeat foes by dealing damage, Beguiler in Player's Handbook II should be your first choice. You're not going to find any prestige classes that are better than just taking more Beguiler levels, but you definitely want to take one level of a prestige class that advances your spellcasting as early as possible. This way you'll have Beguiler 8 spellcasting (4th level spells) when you gain your Beguiler 7 Advanced Learning, and the same goes for the subsequent Advanced Learning abilities, so you can pick a spell that's one level higher with each one. The best choice for a prestige class to dip is Mindbender in Complete Arcane, which also gives you telepathy. So you should go Beguiler 5, then take one level of Mindbender, then only take more Beguiler levels after that for the rest of your character's career. Having telepathy also allows you to take the feat Mindsight in Lords of Madness, page 126. Other feats to consider would be (Greater) Spell Focus: Illusion and/or Enchantment, Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) (DMG) for an Imp or Quasit, Dazzling Illusion (CM), and Unsettling Enchantment (CM). Darkstalker is still necessary.

For more of a hybrid character, consider a Rogue/Psion multiclass with Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d). This can use powers like Energy Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyRay.htm) to deal surprise sneak attacks, area effects to hit multiple foes at once, and can also be scrappy when needed thanks to buffing powers. I would build this as a Rogue 1/ Psion (Egoist) 4/ Psychic Assassin 6, and take Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) afterward or just keep getting Psychic Assassin levels. Your Psion 1 bonus feat needs to be Practiced Manifester from Complete Psionic, and like the scrappy Rogue build above you'll want two-weapon fighting but you'll need to wait until 3rd to get Weapon Finesse. I'd consider going Human in this case, and spend your bonus feat on Able Learner in Races of Destiny, but it's not really necessary. Get one or two flaws for extra feats, you'll still want Darkstalker and Craven and you'll also want Psicrystal Affinity (Nimble or Hero). Your first Psychic Assassin special ability should be Mind Cripple, and note that the text of its spellcasting advancement says it gives a spellcasting increase at the 5th level as well as the even numbered levels, and whenever the text and table disagrees you should always go with what the text description says (per Primary Source in the PHB and DMG Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata)).

[Inevitability]

If you are considering Whisper Gnome but don't have the book, they're free to get here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3).

[Hypersmith]

Another option, if available, is the Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. It's magic-tinted martial artist type, who has plenty of skill points and a wide variety of snazzy special moves, ranging from simple "I stab you, but harder" to intense "I bend like a reed and throw you across the battlefield with my aikido" to full-on "I teleport through the shadows." It's that last bit that makes it a great sneak-- they get a ton of abilities that let them turn invisible, teleport, walk on walls and the like. They're also pretty straightforward to build and interesting to play.
I like the sound of that.


A factotum (slight improvement on a rogue) can be great with poisons because of his ability to pump a skill once a day.
Why would you say factotum is an improvement on rogue?


A quick question: Has your character stopped working for your lord at all, upon joining with the other players? The way you describe it, it sounds like a past tense sort of thing. If so, then you should consider that he got to level 2 doing those things, but that doesn't necessarily need to dictate his future path, since it seems almost like you're getting levels to justify things your character did in his backstory after beginning play.
I totally agree with you, but it's a path I envision him continuing on. Who knows, he might end up totally different.


If you want to/must stick to 3.5, the master of poisons feat from drow of the underdark simultaneously gives you poison use to avoid poisoning yourself, and allows you to apply poisons as a swift action, so it's pretty vital if you want to use posions.
Super useful, thanks.


What are the other characters in your party, and how experienced are the other players?

Knowing that will help us figure out how much optimization and/or cheese you might want.
Still applying to the game, so nothing there yet.


I haven't seen any mention of races yet, so I'll recommend Whisper Gnome in Races of Stone. They're small size (+4 Hide) but still have a 30 ft. land speed, they get an extra +4 to Hide and Move Silently and +2 to Listen and Spot, along with both low-light vision and darkvision. They get ideal ability score bonuses for this type of character, since you'll want Dex > Int > Con > everything else can be at 10.


Rogue is a decent class, and you don't necessarily need to multiclass or take a prestige class, though it's often recommended for increased versatility and/or to help maximize your character's strengths. It really depends on how you want to play the character, and what you enjoy playing in general. You're new to 3.5, but what other games have you played? In 3.5 it's fairly easy to put the right skills on a very wide variety of different characters. Do you prefer a scrappy character who gets in close, or do you prefer to keep your distance in combat? Do you want to deal damage, or use magic to disable foes or even turn them against each other? Or perhaps a combination of a few of those?

For a scrappy melee character without magic of their own, going Rogue (or the Wilderness Rogue variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) from Unearthed Arcana for Hide in Plain Sight) is probably the most straightforward option. Take two-weapon fighting, but don't bother with the improved or greater versions, and don't even consider two-weapon defense. You'll need Weapon Finesse since you want a much higher Dex than Str, which you can't take at 1st level since it requires a +1 BAB, but if you can take a character flaw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (UA) you can get a feat at 2nd level to get that, as it's still during character creation. I would take either murky-eyed or vulnerable, as they'll have the least drawback both immediately and in the long term. In this case you want to put max skill ranks in Use Magic Device so you can use wands and scrolls when necessary, it's probably not going to help you at the current level but it's a long term investment. Plan to pick up Gloves of the Balanced Hand in Magic Item Compendium, and two Swords of Subtlety (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety). Craven significantly increases your damage when sneak attacking, and Darkstalker is absolutely necessary for any sneaky character.

I'll leave race to mostly a secondary choice, as long as I'm getting my +2 to dex and maybe int or con, I should be happy.
So many feats, so few I can choose. Definitely considering a drawback to get a headstart on Craven or Darkstalker. I am interested in a scrappy/utility rogue, partially because I'm trying to keep it simple, partially because I think it'll be fun.


I have played and Dmd 5e and continue to play it, but I want to try out 3.5, I like the look of all the verstaility. I've made characters in d20 modern/future, though that game never kicked off, and I'm playing Rogue trader now.

[DrKerosene]

Why would you say factotum is an improvement on rogue

Why an Incarnate/Rogue is "the best" skillmonkey, http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471394-Incarnate-by-the-Numbers-(Todd)

A discussion about why people prefer Rogue or Factotum,
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?136892-Factotum-vs-Rogue-which-do-you-prefer

If you read the sections for the Rogue and Factotum in the Class Tier List, it goes into detail, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?269440-Why-Each-Class-Is-In-Its-Tier-(Rescued-from-MinMax)

Then all you need to know is a Factotum has more options than a vanilla Rogue (and equal book options), that is if the Factotum doesn't invest all their feats into getting the extra Inspiration.

I'm a fan of Urban Rangers, but I think that an Changeling Urban Druid might be really good.

A Binder is also an option, but it's more rewarding with some system mastery.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Why would you say factotum is an improvement on rogue?
The Factotum is fairly good at skills. They get all skills as class skills, get to add Int to all their physical skills, and 1/day/skill they get to add their class level (which is both a good panic button and as a way to dabble in rare skills like Forgery). At higher levels, they get a reasonable amount of spellcasting and some action economy manipulation. They'd actually be quite good as a dip for a poisoned, because their first level ability lets them add their Int to damage rolls... and is written poorly enough that it can be used with ABILITY damage rolls, too.

That said, they're a painfully awkward class. They have a decent bit of flexibility, but it's really difficult to get an effective offense going. They don't have a full BAB, making power attack kind of hard, the oft-cited Knowledge Devotion is only a small boost, the practically-a-class-feature-around-here Iajutsu Focus* is finicky to get working reliably, the spellcasting takes a while to start working well**, and they're feat-starved.

If you want "Rogue with a bit of magic," I strongly recommend either the Swordsage or the Psychic Rogue (online). The Factotum is clunky and takes a bunch of system mastery to make work.


*Make a skill check when drawing a weapon and attacking a flat-footed target to do extra damage.
**It's kind of 5e Warlock-y. You don't have many slots, but they can all be used for your highest levels of spell.

[Hypersmith]

I'm mid digging through feats etc, and if I'm reading this right I can't take weapon finesse till level 3?

[Eldariel]

I'm mid digging through feats etc, and if I'm reading this right I can't take weapon finesse till level 3?

Correct, unfortunately. Ranged weapons use Dexterity by default though so just use a bow and/or thrown weapons until then, if you don't have the strength for melee.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm mid digging through feats etc, and if I'm reading this right I can't take weapon finesse till level 3?

If you can take a character flaw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) you get an extra feat. Flaws must be taken on character creation, but since you're making a character at 2nd level, your flaw feat can be at 2nd level when you have a +1 BAB, so you can use that to get Weapon Finesse. Flaws are in Unearthed Arcana, they're an optional rule so be sure to check with your DM.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm mid digging through feats etc, and if I'm reading this right I can't take weapon finesse till level 3?
That is sadly correct. One reason I suggested the Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3 build is that it gets you Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 2nd level.

[Hypersmith]

no problem no problem, I can deal. I've read through the stuff you guys have recommended. Many thanks. If I could take flaws I would have, but alas, I cannot. What I think I'm going with in the end is the rogue 2 for the moment, Changeling. With my stats (10, 18, 16, 14, 9, 8) that should let me start poisoner PrC next level, thanks to the race. I know the others do pretty awesome stuff too, but I'm really feeling the poisoner. My feat is exotic weapon: Blowgun, but I'll be using some kind of ranged (probably daggers) for the moment. Not sure of next level feat - probably weapon finesse. Taking poisoner PrC gives me half the benefit of the Master of Poisons feat anyway, so once I've played a little I can decide if I want it for the swift application or not. Either way, gonna be applying a lot of poisons soon.

Again, many thanks to everyone who lent me a hand and helped me jump the hurdle into 3.5, I can see why people still play it.

[ATHATH]

You know about the Changeling Rogue substitution levels, right? Mmm, (10+INT)*4 skill points at first level...

I'd recommend going for Psychic Rogue over Rogue, since psionics is/are fun and Psychic Rogue doesn't lose all that much compared to a normal Rogue.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Bad news- Exotic Weapon Proficiency also requires +1 BAB.

[Hypersmith]

Bad news- Exotic Weapon Proficiency also requires +1 BAB.

damn, you're right. Poison expert will do then. Or maybe Deep Poisoning.

Sheet if anyone is curious (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1306816)

Edit: aaaaaand those need the Poison Use feat. Maybe that's a good starting point

[Hypersmith]

You know about the Changeling Rogue substitution levels, right? Mmm, (10+INT)*4 skill points at first level...

I'd recommend going for Psychic Rogue over Rogue, since psionics is/are fun and Psychic Rogue doesn't lose all that much compared to a normal Rogue.

I actually don't know what substitution levels are, but that's a lot of skill points and I'm interested.

Nah, I'm not a big fan of psionics in the first place.

[IcarusWulfe]

Racial Substitution Levels are basically little blurbs that say "If you are of X race, you have the choice of getting different stuff at certain levels for certain classes". For example the Changeling Rouge substitution levels (which are found in Magic of Ebberon if I'm not mistaken) allow you to trade Trapfinding for the ability to get 10 base skill points at first level and the ability to take 10 on all social skills, trade trapsense for 10 base skill points at 3rd level and +1 rank to all knowledge skills, and the option of trading uncanny dodge at 8th level for (once again) 10 skill points at that level and 50% crit and sneak attack immunity.

[Crake]

Nah, I'm not a big fan of psionics in the first place.

Are you not a big fan of psionics? Or have you simply been fed misinformation by all the people around you? Psionics has a really bad rap from earlier editions, but 3.5 psionics is basically just an alternate magic system, one that doesn't involve you needing to chant and make obvious movements, something quite valuable to someone trying to be discreet.

[Hypersmith]

Are you not a big fan of psionics? Or have you simply been fed misinformation by all the people around you? Psionics has a really bad rap from earlier editions, but 3.5 psionics is basically just an alternate magic system, one that doesn't involve you needing to chant and make obvious movements, something quite valuable to someone trying to be discreet.

I definitely need experience before I can say it's me and not what I've read, because as someone with literally zero 3.5 experience, I can't say it's my preference through experience. I'm not just ruling out playing a psionic in the future, but not now. Even if it is something incredibly useful for a rogue, I think I'd prefer to stick to a simpler character and ease my way into the system

[Troacctid]

I keep a list of prestige classes that are a good fit for Rogues.

Assassin
Avenger
Cabinet Trickster
Cancer Mage
Chameleon
Disciple of Baalzebul
Dungeon Delver
Elocater
Exemplar
Eye of Xanathar
Fatemaker
Halfling Whistler
Jaunter
Life Eater
Magic Filcher
Master of Masks
Master of the South Wind
Mountebank
Psibond Agent
Psionic Assassin
Scorpion Heritor
Shade Hunter
Shadowbane Stalker
Slayer of Domiel
Telflammar Shadowlord
Temple Raider
Trapsmith
Twisted Lord
Umbral Disciple
Unseen Seer
Urban Savant
Vigilante

Any of these sound interesting to you? They vary in power level, but all of them are viable choices IMO.

[Hypersmith]

Several sound pretty dope - the scorpion, the umbra lord, but I've kinda fallen in love with poisoner, and I'm curious as to why it isn't on your list - do you not consider dragon mag stuff, or is there some other reason?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Several sound pretty dope - the scorpion, the umbra lord, but I've kinda fallen in love with poisoner, and I'm curious as to why it isn't on your list - do you not consider dragon mag stuff, or is there some other reason?
Troacctid will have to give their own reason, but I can imagine it has something to do with the viability of poison... which isn't super, even if you invest heavily, because so many things are immune (constructs, undead, many outsiders) and a whole bunch of other things are highly resistant (big brutish monsters tend to have amazing fort saves for their CR), and the stuff is relatively costly to use. For example, the 8th-level Poisoner ability allows you to craft fast-acting poisons, for which the secondary damage takes place only one round after application. Those poisons cost 4x normal. Black lotus extract with that modification would deal 6d6 con damage over two rounds (avg. 21, enough to kill many creatures), but would also cost 18 000 gp for a single dose.

Incidentally, a single level in a psionic class with psionic minor creation (the spell equivalent is a 4th-level spell, the power is only first-level) allows you to get a good amount of free poison--the power creates nonliving nonmagical plant matter only, but that just happens to include black lotus extract. It also includes luhix, a drug, which forces a DC 25 save versus death if you take it twice in one day, and is applied via injury (so: hit them twice with the same poison, and it's lethal).

[Uckleverry]

Several sound pretty dope - the scorpion, the umbra lord, but I've kinda fallen in love with poisoner, and I'm curious as to why it isn't on your list - do you not consider dragon mag stuff, or is there some other reason?

Not sure if you're aware of this already, but unfortunately the name of a class will not indicate how well it accomplishes its "promise" in gameplay. A particular prestige class may sound and look cool, but its abilities could be lacking and may not satisfactorily deliver on the promise of being said thing (like poisoner or something). Stick to the classes that the folks here recommend, as they probably know which ones are more fun to play.

[Endarire]

Remember, as a Druid, you eventually get Poison Immunity and can Wild Shape into creatures that manufacture poison.

If you take the feat Nightbringer Initiate (Faiths of Eberron), you get Hide and Move Silently as Druid class skills. Druids already get Spot and Listen as class skills. You could use the feat Skill Knowledge (Unearthed Arcana) to get more skills as class.

[Troacctid]

The thing about Poisoner (and Replacement Killer) is that they give up Assassin spellcasting to get abilities that are, like, kinda lame, and honestly aren't really even better than what you'd get as a single-class Rogue? And, like, you have to spend a feat tax for 'em too? So I'm not really a fan. (Although the actual reason why they weren't on my list was cuz I just forgot about 'em.) You really don't want to go all-in on poison—practically half the Monster Manual is immune to it.

Scorpion Heritor feels a lot like a variant Rogue, as you still have the same chassis with the skill points and sneak attack, but you get some interesting scorpion-themed abilities. (One of which, incidentally, involves coating your weapon in scorpion venom.) It doesn't add much power compared to a straight Rogue, but it's cool and it can be fun.

Umbral Disciple is actually a really great dip. At 3rd level, it gives you Embrace of Shadow, which provides you with an always-on 20% miss chance and the ability to hide in plain sight. Pretty kickass. Also boosts your Will save and gives bonuses on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble.

[Hypersmith]

Not sure if you're aware of this already, but unfortunately the name of a class will not indicate how well it accomplishes its "promise" in gameplay.
It's a shame but yes, I know not to read a book by its cover. However, I do still really enjoy flavor over optimization.



Stick to the classes that the folks here recommend, as they probably know which ones are more fun to play.
But this I very much disagree with. The folk here will for sure have great recommendations and ways to optimize what I'm planning, but they don't define what I find fun.

That said, it is a big problem how poison is pretty much useless at higher levels, but I'm sure I can figure out a dip later on that could help.

[Nifft]

However, I do still really enjoy flavor over optimization.

Let me tell you a secret: you're allowed to create new flavor.

This means: you can dress up effects however you want. You can take good, powerful mechanics and re-cast them into the trappings that fit your concept.

For example, an effective poisoner using D&D mechanics:

Buy a dagger +1 with the "arcane venom" property, which I just made up. The property is actually Spell Storing, and your poisons are actually spells which you deliver by stabbing.

Smear a rare venom component* onto your +1 arcane venom dagger while whispering a ritual oath to the grandfather assassin**. The blade shines, a sheen of dark and deadly magical venom coating its blade until you burry the edge in your next victim***.

This is what I came up with after ~2 minutes of thinking. You can probably do better. :smallsmile: There's never a conflict between optimization & flavor -- flavor exists to inspire a concept, and optimization serves to make any concept better. Don't get caught in the trap of thinking that flavor should dictate mechanics. It can't, it's just there to inspire. You are the only one who can bring the flavor and mechanics into harmony.


*) the material components of a spell

**) casting a spell into the spell-storing weapon

***) discharging the spell when you hit

[Uckleverry]

It's a shame but yes, I know not to read a book by its cover. However, I do still really enjoy flavor over optimization.


But this I very much disagree with. The folk here will for sure have great recommendations and ways to optimize what I'm planning, but they don't define what I find fun.

That said, it is a big problem how poison is pretty much useless at higher levels, but I'm sure I can figure out a dip later on that could help.

My point was that while the flavor may be appealing, the mechanics could very well fail in supporting that flavor, and thus the actual play experience in trying to achieve the desired flavor ends up being lackluster. There could very well be other classes with a different, perhaps less enticing name or lore that ultimately supports the flavor better mechanically.

[Hypersmith]

My point was that while the flavor may be appealing, the mechanics could very well fail in supporting that flavor, and thus the actual play experience in trying to achieve the desired flavor ends up being lackluster. There could very well be other classes with a different, perhaps less enticing name or lore that ultimately supports the flavor better mechanically.

Honestly you're probably right. Maybe I should dip scorpion heritor on top of poisoner. 6 heritor/4 poisoner, gives me fast acting poison, raises DCs on poison, gives me added heritor functionality, attacks and features that are great for sneaking without needing another feat commitment. (I can't read, it needs Scorpions resolve feat) I have the knowledge I need from changeling features

[MaxiDuRaritry]

In the Monster Manual III there's an exotic weapon called the sand blaster that is a fantastic way to apply AoE poisons, along with a handy debuff. It doesn't even need a proficiency feat because it fires without needing an attack roll. Also note that the weight for the blaster and ammo is for a Large creature, so if you're Medium or smaller you'll save a lot on weight. Look up the optimization threads around here to see some fun things you can do with them.

[edit] Try http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization
and http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?415149-Sand-Blaster-MM3

[AnimeTheCat]

Might I suggest Bard? You said you want to be a master of intrigue/assassination/poisoning/etc. Charisma is important for a lot of that. In fact, you can use said charisma to get closer to your targets and then later, frame others and shunt the blame off of you by making it look as though someon else did it. Take Forgery, Bluff, Diplomacy, Open Lock, Craft (Poisonmaking), Craft (Alchemy), Hide, and Move Silently and you should be fairly set. You can write fake notes to leave in places, turn people against each other, lie effectively, and on top of it all, you have spells to fall back on or use at the very start of the game. You can cross-class rogue and then go into any of the various rogue prestige classes.

In combat, you're a supporting character capable of assisting your allies. Out of combat, you're a fierce diplomat, frightening con-artist, and overall a terrifying force to be reconed with. Assassinations would probably not take place during combat so you'll get a chance to take preparation actions and perform CDG attacks on your helpless targets making the need for sneak attack damage less necessary for assassinations.

[rrwoods]

Regarding flavor vs optimization: what I recommend here is to take your concept, and convert it into concrete goals (but not mechanical ones) at the tactical and strategic levels, and ask for advice on those. You say you were in service to a lord? Are you good at manipulating people? You want to be sneaky -- scouting? Assassination at range? Kills up close but undetected?

Once you know those, you can pick mechanical options (race, class, feats, items) that fulfill those, and -- this is the key -- apply your desired flavor to them. You and the DM can choose how to narrate the mechanical actions and choices of your character.

Flavor is rarely if ever in opposition to optimization. The key to choosing an optimization level has only to do with the optimization level expected of you, as dictated by party composition, player experience, campaign style, and DM experience. It has naught to do with flavor.