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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next The Muggle Bard [PEACH]



GalacticAxekick
2017-08-19, 05:26 AM
I'm not a fan of gishes. Having to play a spellcaster to access social skills beyond just skill proficiencies doesn't sit well with me. So I've been working in a ground-up rework of the Bard class (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rJYAKVGN-) whose only power is social skill: not a traditional magical-social Bard/Skald or martial-social Rogue/Warlord. Small hit dice, limited weapon/armour proficiencies, avoidance of spell-like resource economies and a variety of buffing/nerfing options are basically what I'm going for.

This is a work in progress, of course, which means (A) pardon the mess and (B) make suggestions, please!

Mourne
2017-08-20, 12:19 PM
I really like where you're going with this. I made an attempt along these lines a while back and was not able to come up with something that worked (though I was more focused on meshing the bard's music/magic).

In regards to features:

The Message: I'm leery of Cheer only consuming a reaction. As a primarily non-combat class (and with none of the rare spells that use a reaction), the Muggle Bard has no real use for their reaction other than this. This would essentially be a continuous advantage applied to an ally -- maybe intended? Maybe require a bonus action and have the effect last until the start/end of the Muggle's next turn? There at least would be some competition for the resource. I like the concept of Sic -- sacrifice your action to allow an ally an additional action (at a slight cost). I might suggest limiting this even further though to prevent unforeseen shenanigans with class features (e.g can only be used to Attack, Cast a Spell, Hide, or Use an Object). Deploy is fine as is, though maybe a little lackluster compared to the other two.

Inspiration: Pretty cool departure from the PHB version. I really like Charming Words (even though it breaks the "rule" of using Hit Die as a resource). Cutting Words works well also as a damage resource. For both of them, rather than the increased uses within the same action (sort of a Muggle Inspirational Extra Attack?), I'd rather see them scale... allow Charming Words to use even more Hit Die and Cutting Words to scale similarly to the Vicious Mockery spell.

I didn't do much with the colleges other than a quick glance as they could change quite a bit based on fleshing out the core class features.

In case you're interested, perhaps you can find something useful in this mess: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HkVIPQ__x

GalacticAxekick
2017-08-21, 03:14 AM
I'm leery of Cheer only consuming a reaction. As a primarily non-combat class (and with none of the rare spells that use a reaction), the Muggle Bard has no real use for their reaction other than this. This would essentially be a continuous advantage applied to an ally -- maybe intended? Maybe require a bonus action and have the effect last until the start/end of the Muggle's next turn? There at least would be some competition for the resource. The continuous advantage was intended, yeah! A Muggle serving a party of 3 more adventurers could use their reaction to help one (but only one!) with a save or check each round. If a Fireball were to hit, they could protect their favourite member. If the guards were doubling back, they could hide their favourite member.

I figured that the relative unimportance of ability checks in combat, the group checks outside combat, and the passive-defensive nature of saving throws meant this wasn't too powerful. But if it is, we can narrow the scope or increase the action-economic cost!

That said, I think making it bonus action doesn't change much. Because most Muggles won't be two-weapon fighting (or weapon fighting at all), and because most Muggles won't be multiclassing as Rogues or Monks, there's no competition for bonus actions at all. We could create competition with a new or edited feature, though!

EDIT: what if the Muggle could only grant advantage if they already had proficiency, as if sharing their knowledge? This would limit constrain them to social saving throws (Wisdom, Charisma), a few mental skill checks and any tools/weapons with which they are proficient. Each would have a unique and limited range, and it would expand with multiclassing and certain feats.


I like the concept of Sic -- sacrifice your action to allow an ally an additional action (at a slight cost). I might suggest limiting this even further though to prevent unforeseen shenanigans with class features (e.g can only be used to Attack, Cast a Spell, Hide, or Use an Object).Sic and Charming Words are my favourite ideas for the Muggle, so I'm glad you like it! I'm personally a fan of unforeseen shenanigans (like the Warlock-Abjurer (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/32rsrq/raw_infinite_shielding_via_wizardwarlock/)), but because nonsense isn't for everyone, you're super right.


Deploy is fine as is, though maybe a little lackluster compared to the other two. I agree! Deploy feels both necessary and underwhelming to me, and I'd like to offer upgrades at higher levels (Hiding or disengaging as part of the movement? Crawling, climbing, swimming, leaping further than normal?)

EDIT: Would something akin to cunning actions be an appropriate upgrade? As a bonus action, allow a creature you deploy to Dash, Disengage or Hide. This would compete with a bonus action style Cheer.


Inspiration: Pretty cool departure from the PHB version. I really like Charming Words (even though it breaks the "rule" of using Hit Die as a resource). Cutting Words works well also as a damage resource. For both of them, rather than the increased uses within the same action (sort of a Muggle Inspirational Extra Attack?), I'd rather see them scale... allow Charming Words to use even more Hit Die and Cutting Words to scale similarly to the Vicious Mockery spell.Charming Words already allows the target to use even more hit dice as the target gains access to them. I can definitely replace the Extra Attack/Eldritch Blast style progression with a more standard cantrip progression, though!


I didn't do much with the colleges other than a quick glance as they could change quite a bit based on fleshing out the core class features. Good call! I'd like to have three colleges, each expanding one of the core features.
The College of Minds would focus on controlling the thoughts and precise actions of others, expanding on the Message. It includes a variation of the Message that forcibly targets unwilling listeners, and upgraded versions of the Message that let the Muggle order an ally to react or help an ally concentrate on an effect, for instance.
The College of Hearts would focus on controlling the feelings and general behaviour of others, expanding on Inspiration. It includes an upgraded Charming Words that grants a buff as long as the temp HP is retained, and an upgraded Cutting Words that deals a status effect instead of damage (effect options to be decided), for instance.
The College Seen would focus on showing rather than telling, expanding on the Messenger, and granting options that work without it. I plan to include feature that allows the Muggle to hide in plain sight, a decoy feature to draw attention to themselves, a variant of Charming Words that empowers the Muggle herself, a variant of Cutting Words that adds psychic damage to her weapon attacks, and a variety of "acts" such as acrobatics (enhanced crawling/leaping) athletics (enhanced climbing/swimming) and strongman (enhanced grappling/shoving), all proving utilities for exploration and combat.


I'm also considering a fourth college, The College Heard that uses sound itself as a tool: ventriloquy, mimicry, thunder damage, silence effects and such!


In case you're interested, perhaps you can find something useful in this mess: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HkVIPQ__xWill do! I'll comment again or edit this comment once I have, thanks!

Daws2727
2017-09-02, 01:51 AM
If you're looking for one, a possible 20th level or other feature could be something where NPCs you speak to are automatically charmed by you unless they make a saving throw.

By the way Mourne, I really like the masterpieces feature in your homebrew bard, and it would be cool to have specific songs in your repertoire as a bard.

Overall, I think this is a good idea for a class.

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-02, 03:27 AM
Noted, thanks! More than anything though, I'm interested in the first 10 levels.

Every class has 2 or 3 tentpole features that provide the bulk of their offense, defense and utility, followed by features that refine them and carve out a playstyle, like a Fighter's martial weapons, armour and action, a Barbarian's martial weapons, unarmoured defense and rage, or a Rogue's sneak attack and cunning action.

My bard gets The Message, The Messenger and Inspiration. I'm struggling to build on these features to build the bulk of the features that follow. How else might a low-level bard inspire, inform and manipulate others?

Lycan999
2017-09-03, 10:21 PM
I like where this is going, but I have a few concerns. Right now the feel I get from it is more of a field commander/marshal character as opposed to the wandering storyteller/master performer that I usually associate with the bard. I've attempted a similar remake of the bard before and found myself focusing on the bard's social skills and manipulation, travel and experienced based knowledge (as opposed to the more scholarly knowledge of the wizard, more of word of mouth knowledge), and performance. Take from that what you will, in the end it is your take on the bard.

Moving on to more specific advice, since this bard won't have access to magic and spells like Comprehend Languages, I would suggest working in some bonus language progression or a natural Comprehend Languages like the monk's Tongue of the Moon and Sun. I personally like the first option better, something like two/three free languages at first level, and another bonus language every 4/5 levels or so. You could even give them some kind of bonus for knowing more languages, perhaps a DC increase against the members that speak that language (if you speak Dwarvish your abilities against dwarves increase their DC by 1) or a unique bonus for each language (if you speak Draconic and attempt to apply the Frightened condition the target makes their save with disadvantage). I'll muse over this and think of some more suggestions to help you fill those blank spaces over the next few days.

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-03, 11:22 PM
I like where this is going, but I have a few concerns. Right now the feel I get from it is more of a field commander/marshal character as opposed to the wandering storyteller/master performer that I usually associate with the bard. I've attempted a similar remake of the bard before and found myself focusing on the bard's social skills and manipulation, travel and experienced based knowledge (as opposed to the more scholarly knowledge of the wizard, more of word of mouth knowledge), and performance. Take from that what you will, in the end it is your take on the bard.I wrote on the first page of my doc what my Bard is meant to be. Like the Fighter encompasses every master of mundane martial arts (regardless of their tools of choice or area of physical fitness), and like the Wizard encompasses every student of magic (regardless of the spells they choose to learn), the Bard encompasses all expert communicators (regardless of the message they tell or the way the tell it). Storytellers, singers, coaches, commanders, teachers, preachers, diplomats, gossips and more are all Bards.

The Message feature is unfortunately most fitting for martially inclined Bards such as field commanders, but it's necessary for the Bard to contribute in combat without martial abilities or spells of their own. I can try to fluff the feature to better fit other Bard concepts (a heartfelt singer inspiring allies to seize opportunities, or a cunning teacher pointing out openings and instructing allies to exploit them). But ultimately I need to write more features that better accommodate these non-commander Bards.

Also, one thing I love about 5e is that it keeps class and background apart. The Barbarian class describes a skillset, but not a lifestyle (despite the name), meaning there are Barbarian acolytes, nobles and sages alongside stereotypical outlanders, sailors and soldiers. There are Wizards who "studied" magic not in an ivory tower, but in their own backyards: Wizards with experiential knowledge rather than scholarly knowledge. I don't want to box the Bard as an entertainer or wanderer, and so I want to avoid features tied to the Bard's background. Core Bard features will represent social skills in general. The archetypes will probably represent inspiring (The College of Hearts), informing (The College of Minds), and demonstrating (The College Seen)


Moving on to more specific advice, since this bard won't have access to magic and spells like Comprehend Languages, I would suggest working in some bonus language progression or a natural Comprehend Languages like the monk's Tongue of the Moon and Sun. I personally like the first option better, something like two/three free languages at first level, and another bonus language every 4/5 levels or so. You could even give them some kind of bonus for knowing more languages, perhaps a DC increase against the members that speak that language (if you speak Dwarvish your abilities against dwarves increase their DC by 1) or a unique bonus for each language (if you speak Draconic and attempt to apply the Frightened condition the target makes their save with disadvantage). I'll muse over this and think of some more suggestions to help you fill those blank spaces over the next few days.That's not a bad idea! New languages would be appropriate, though I might instead make it new proficiencies in general (language, tool or skill for instance) representing how different bards accumulate different knowledge. One Bard might be a diplomat who'd acquire a handful of languages. But another might be a musician who gathers instrument proficiencies and Charisma skills (plus perhaps Insight and Perception), and yet another might be a researcher who gathers kit proficiencies and Intelligence skills (plus perhaps Medicine).

The idea of increasing effect DCs with language proficiency isn't really my style—I'm a bigger fan of new options than improved options—but I won't shelf it. Attaching effects to each language could be cool though, as well as skills/tools if I go through with that. But then, that'd be a lot of features to write.

Any thoughts on what kind of effects I could include? Or if another idea would be more appropriate?

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-09, 04:47 PM
I've updated the class with a structure inspired by the Cleric: two tentpole features offered at 1st and 2nd level, accompanied with and followed by subclass features that refine them.

My concerns right now are:

Do these features make for a powerful socialite? The Muggle Bard shouldn't be lagging behind Rogues who dabble in Charisma skills or spellcasters who dabble in enchantments. I'm considering giving the Muggle Expertise at 1st level.
Do these features make for a fun combatant? The Message alone gives the Muggle all the strength and versatility of their party, but offering nothing of their own might be unfun.
Are these features balanced? By favouring action economy over resource economy, I'm afraid I might've given the Muggle unlimited use of features modeled on strong spells. Minute-long "casting times" and similar penalties are meant to mitigate that.
What features could I add beyond 8th level? What other archetypes might be fun and appropriate? What might I do to improve the features that exist?