1d4chan's Simple Tier Fix?

[GreatWyrmGold]

While skimming 1d4chan, I came across a quick, hacky "fix" for 3.5's balance problems. It goes roughly as follows:


Tiers 1 and 2 are banned unless otherwise noted below.
Tiers 5 and 6 are discouraged.
Druids can use the bard's spells-per-day table. (Or just play a wildshape-variant ranger.)
Fighters add half of their level to initiative and weapon damage rolls, and can make a standard attack as a full action. (Warblades are still recommended.)
A rogue/warlock gestalt is available as a standard class.
The Healer class uses the Spontaneous Divine Caster variant from Unearthed Arcana.
Clerics are fine if using spontaneous divine caster rules and bardic spells-per-day (maybe?).


I'm curious to hear the Playground's opinion on how well this fix would work. Obviously, it wouldn't fix everything, and there would be some gaping holes in the roster (e.g, warlocks and maybe binders as the only generalist arcanists), but it still seems like it could help. But then, I didn't understand why the monk was so terrible until it was explained to me, so take that with a grain of salt. What are your guys', hopefully less-salt-requiring, thoughts?

[DrKerosene]

I would love to play in an all Rogue/Warlock gestalt game with different variants and specialties.

I do think Bard, Duskblade, and Mystic Ranger, seem like a fair benchmark to be using for spells.

[Eldariel]

Just take Tier 3-4 and you're fine. In a tier 3-4 game, Warlock-Rogue Gestalt is pretty darn strong. I don't know why target two classes that are already pretty darn good for their tier; Rogue is very high Tier 4 and Warlock is a solid Tier 3 with just Hellfire Warlock - I'd rather just clump Warlock and Hellfire Warlock together and call it done. Warlock is one of the best crafters and itemomancers in this settings due to being the only one to be able to access any spells and that's pretty strong when combined with UMD (everyone else's UMD is much more restricted).

[Sam K]

Seems a lot more complicated than talking to each other about what kind of game you want to run...

[ExLibrisMortis]

The first part of this tier "fix" amounts to banning 6-5-2-1, which does work (for obvious reasons), but is completely uninteresting from a 'fixing things'-standpoint. The other bits--about changing spell progressions, gestalting weaker classes, homebrewing new fighter mechanics, and so on--are suggestions for bringing other classes to tier 3-4, which is the real objective of a tier fix. Using the bard progression is a quick fix I've recommended before.

Personally, I'm less interested in bringing up mundanes through mundane abilities. Instead of cheap full attacks, I'd grant fighters (and also rogues, barbarians, monks) some casting, probably just a reskin of paladin/ranger casting (with cantrips at level 1-3).

[legomaster00156]

I assume that you mean Fighters can full attack as a standard action, not make one attack as a full-round action.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Fighter fix is only marginally helpful, and I'm not sure what the Healer one means.

The best "quick fix" is probably to ban anything that reduces the cost of metamagic, turn all prepared casters into spontaneous, agree to avoid the most abusive spells*, and to allow T4 classes to gestalt with T5 or T6. That renders casters more manageable without making them unrecognizable, and opens up low-tier offerings instead of simply removing them.

*Alter Self, Polymorph, and any [Calling] spell covers a lot.

[Eldariel]

The Fighter fix is only marginally helpful, and I'm not sure what the Healer one means.

The best "quick fix" is probably to ban anything that reduces the cost of metamagic, turn all prepared casters into spontaneous, agree to avoid the most abusive spells*, and to allow T4 classes to gestalt with T5 or T6. That renders casters more manageable without making them unrecognizable, and opens up low-tier offerings instead of simply removing them.

*Alter Self, Polymorph, and any [Calling] spell covers a lot.

Calling-spells are supereasy to fix, and they were that way until WotC lost their wits in 3.X design (in AD&D). Just remove the stupid Cha-service clause, state that no creature can grant Wishes under any kind of mind-affecting stuff, do something about Mindrape (limit it a bit/define it as still being essentially magical compulsion) and Ice Assassin (and Simulacrum) like state something about losing SLAs and casting based on the half HD and just figure out what that means for various creatures. Gate - no automatic servitude - you need to protect yourself and actually work to get yourself a bitch instead of just chain-Gating stuff. Same with Planar Binding - it may be at your mercy but you still need to compel it to service and Dominate Monster is a 9th level spell that is blocked by any Protection from X-effect among other things.

Wish - just remove the concept of safe Wish and go from there. That whole concept is asinine in the first place. The whole point of the spell is that it can do anything but that it's really hard to use right; DM shouldn't be tempted to pervert every bloody Wish you ever make (or go back to AD&D about the closest available creature with the SLA granting your Wish as they see fit). Miracle is more problematic but ultimately it's just versatility so it doesn't break everything asunder. Make a clause about deities having a limited number of Miracles they can grant making it more than just a PC-limitation.


Alter Self isn't really that broken, maybe 2 levels too low. Just use the PF versions for all Polymorph- and Alter Self-spells. If you want to give access to monster Sus, make that happen in a much more restricted manner than the carte blanche of Shapechange in 3.5 and make that bloody focus at least a material component like in AD&D. And why is that spell 10 min/level?! 1 min/level is more than enough.

Then just remove free metamagic (mostly just cap DMM by max level you can cast, make Arcane Thesis only apply to one MM feat per spell, remove Incantatrix/Spelldancer/Dweomerkeeper or rework them, perhaps gut Easy/Practical Metamagic favouring the more fair Metamagic School Focus and go from there), fix Persistent Spell (instead of automaking anything last 24 hours just make it like +2 to increase the spell into next category; 1 round to 1 round/level, 1 round/level to 1 minute/level, 1 minute/level to 10 minutes/level, 10 minutes/level to hours/level, hours/level to 24 hours since days/level would be absurdly strong) and you've about fixed all the stupid-broken exploits without making any of the things undoable or impossible.

Oh, and fail on nat 1s with Contact Other Plane, make regeneration work through means other than nonlethal immunity, make Celerity-kinda stuff just skip your next turn or use an unimmunitable version of Daze, make Explosive Runes/Symbols/Sepia Snake Sigil/similar spells disable each other instead of just causing an arc if too many are cast too close to each other, and make Teleport-spells take a longer time to cast. And then do something about Druids (probably just Shapeshift Druid).


Casters still tier 1 but now you can actually use all your stuff without feeling bad, and don't have to hold back that much (still a lot of abuses to avoid, of course, but they don't stem directly from the spells as much anymore and mostly, spells actually do what they're designed to instead of accidentally breaking the game 10 times over). Except with Zombie Dragons but those are their own hassle.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The Fighter fix is only marginally helpful, and I'm not sure what the Healer one means.
Yeah, neither am I. But it didn't seem that important. (It's also one of the only non-core classes mentioned.)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yeah, neither am I. But it didn't seem that important. (It's also one of the only non-core classes mentioned.)

The Healer one can easily be a nerf. In return for being slightly better at healing they lose access to Sanctified spells. I would recommend giving them a domain from a good god instead.

[The Viscount]

How does Cleric's spells known work if it's using Bard's spells per day?

I agree that giving Healer spontaneous hurts more than it helps. The Healer spell list is tiny, and making them choose spells known will only make it more painful.

A DM in this situation will have to choose encounters very carefully. There are a lot of monsters and spells that can only be countered by specific spells, typically on the T1 or T2 list. By slowing their access and banning a number of them, you will have to make sure that you don't accidentally hit the PCs with something they can't counter.

I'm a bit worried that the Rogue/Warlock gestalt might be too good.

[daremetoidareyo]

How does Cleric's spells known work if it's using Bard's spells per day?

I agree that giving Healer spontaneous hurts more than it helps. The Healer spell list is tiny, and making them choose spells known will only make it more painful.

A DM in this situation will have to choose encounters very carefully. There are a lot of monsters and spells that can only be countered by specific spells, typically on the T1 or T2 list. By slowing their access and banning a number of them, you will have to make sure that you don't accidentally hit the PCs with something they can't counter.

I'm a bit worried that the Rogue/Warlock gestalt might be too good.

I think they mean to make it spontaneous a ala beguiler. They get all the spells as spells known, which they can choose from on the fly. I think.

[eggynack]

The Healer one can easily be a nerf. In return for being slightly better at healing they lose access to Sanctified spells. I would recommend giving them a domain from a good god instead.
Or doing nothing. Healers are tier three or so, given sanctified spells. They don't particularly need the help in a tier three/four game.