Why is the bear totem barbarian so popular?

[Galactkaktus]

Like the title says how come the bear totem barbarian seems to be so much more popular than the other barbarian paths. The wolf totem gives advantage and can knock large or smaller creatures prone no questions asked. The eagle allows you to dash as a bonus action while aoo have disadvantage against you and also gives you a fly speed = to your movement so you should be able to engage whatever you want. And the berserker is probably the one that is most certain to actully dish out damage when it's really needed because of the immunity to charm and fear while also triggering attacks of opportunities when getting hit and no restriction on the bonus action attack. So why is the bear totem barbarian so much more popular than the other choices to me it seems like rage already gives the most important resistances. Are people slaying dragons everyday or am i missing something?

[Lombra]

Not so much now, but in the beginning, reading:"resistance to all but psychic" made everyone drool. It really is not that much better then any other path or totem. Personally I love frenzy for the frightened immunity and the flavour of it. Not to mention that you can mix any totem for the path features, you may go: bear bear bear as well as: wolf bear eagle or eagle wolf eagle

[JumboWheat01]

Well, for starters, bear gives you resistance to just about every damage type out there, which really lets you put that tasty d12 hit dice to work. It also allows you to impose disadvantage on things trying to attack others, keeping your party safe. And finally, it gives you some rage-like benefits without actually burning a rage use for the day, on top of an awesome carrying capacity. Very tanky benefits plus passive rage benefits make for a very tasty combo.

Plus bears are awesome. Not much else says barbarian like almost half-a-ton of fur and muscle storming through nature and ripping things apart.

[smcmike]

Like the title says how come the bear totem barbarian seems to be so much more popular than the other barbarian paths. The wolf totem gives advantage and can knock large or smaller creatures prone no questions asked. The eagle allows you to dash as a bonus action while aoo have disadvantage against you and also gives you a fly speed = to your movement so you should be able to engage whatever you want. And the berserker is probably the one that is most certain to actully dish out damage when it's really needed because of the immunity to charm and fear while also triggering attacks of opportunities when getting hit and no restriction on the bonus action attack. So why is the bear totem barbarian so much more popular than the other choices to me it seems like rage already gives the most important resistances. Are people slaying dragons everyday or am i missing something?

A couple of points:

First, people are turned off by Berserker's Frenzy, which is is just too limited by exhaustion, and replaceable with other bonus actions. Intimidating presence is similarly lackluster. So, while Mindless Rage is nice, it's not so nice as the only ability offered by the subclass before level 14.

In terms of the totems, you realize that you aren't locked in to them, right? You can pick Bear at 3, Wolf at 6, and Eagle at 14 if you like. When people talk about Bear Totem, they are refering to the third level Totem Spirit ability.

Comparing the three PHB Totem Spirits, Bear is very good. Eagle is nice for some mobility-focused builds, but most barbarians like to tank for the party. Wolf is good for teamwork, but not every Barbarian fights with reliable melee partners. Bear is just really reliable, and fits with the core goal of the barbarian - being the ultimate tank.

[Galactkaktus]

Not to mention that you can mix any totem for the path features, you may go: bear bear bear as well as: wolf bear eagle or eagle wolf eagle

And i learned something new that makes totem barbarians more interesting. But i really think the resistance to all except psychic is highly overrated since you already have resistance to slashing, piercing and bludgening with regular rage.

[Galactkaktus]

A couple of points:

First, people are turned off by Berserker's Frenzy, which is is just too limited by exhaustion, and replaceable with other bonus actions. Intimidating presence is similarly lackluster. So, while Mindless Rage is nice, it's not so nice as the only ability offered by the subclass before level 14.

In terms of the totems, you realize that you aren't locked in to them, right? You can pick Bear at 3, Wolf at 6, and Eagle at 14 if you like. When people talk about Bear Totem, they are refering to the third level Totem Spirit ability.


I didn't know that you could choose different totems on level 3 6 and 14 that makes the totem path cooler.

And Mindless rage is not the only ability offered before 14 frenzy is also offered. Is it really so limited by exhaustion? Once per day shouldn't be so bad even twice on one day should be possible without too much of an adverse effect if it's really needed since you won't suffer from the reduced speed until the second frenzy actually ends. You could even stretch it to three times if it's really dire.

[Discord]

Because tanking is fun. I played a Bear Barbarian for a while. We got hit with a fire ball, it was like 36 damage, advantage on dex saves cut it down to 18, and resistance to all damage to psychic cut it down to 9. That felt great, and we continued to kick the encounters ass as I was nearly one of last ones standing.

[Talamare]

Because it's pretty broken?

Its more or less auto win against any non-control enemies.

Which means you need to start incorporating control enemies into every awkward encounter to be able to deal with a Bearzerker, and specifically target him with the control...

Encounters shouldn't need to be customized to screw over specific players, and that's what the Bearzerker forces you to do.

I'm sure someone will quote me and say that the enemies can just 100% ignore the Bearzerker, but that doesn't really fix anything does it? Not to mention creates another poor experience that the Tankiest person doesn't ever get to see he is Tanky... and not every enemy is smart enough for this.

[mephnick]

It's overrated but still good. Rage already grants resistance to physical damage so bear only gets you elemental resistance. Good, but not leagues ahead like all the OMG TRIPLE SKY BLUE GOLD build guides would have you believe. I'd usually take Eagle or Wolf myself.

[Lombra]

Because it's pretty broken?

Its more or less auto win against any non-control enemies.

Which means you need to start incorporating control enemies into every awkward encounter to be able to deal with a Bearzerker, and specifically target him with the control...

Encounters shouldn't need to be customized to screw over specific players, and that's what the Bearzerker forces you to do.

I'm sure someone will quote me and say that the enemies can just 100% ignore the Bearzerker, but that doesn't really fix anything does it? Not to mention creates another poor experience that the Tankiest person doesn't ever get to see he is Tanky... and not every enemy is smart enough for this.

Broken is an heavy word.
You gain resistance to elemental, necrotic, radiant and force damage while raging... how many scorching rays/encounter are you getting hit by? One or two fireballs/day past level 7, you are gonna be great versus elementals, but that's it. It isn't "broken" and depending on campaign and party it may even become a trap option.
It becomes better at high levels, but for the first couple levels it's basically useless.
All the bear does is make the barb's hit points last longer, but good adventuring days don't target only hit points.
If you can't deal with a bag of hit points as a DM then wonder how players can kill an hill giant in a properly designed encounter. Exactly, by not only targeting his HPs, and at least one encounter should challenge the barb to play a different game rather than staying in the face of the big bad until one of them falls unconcious.
Control enemies should always be present, you may as well play a game of who rolls the highest number on the d20 if damage and HPs are the only factors that come into play during encounters.

[Galactkaktus]

Control enemies should always be present, you may as well play a game of who rolls the highest number on the d20 if damage and HPs are the only factors that come into play during encounters.

This so much encounters should present you with choices that matters and avoid getting into a one solution for everything. Doesn't need to be control could be some tactical advantage aswell.

[smcmike]

frenzy is also offered. Is it really so limited by exhaustion? Once per day shouldn't be so bad even twice on one day should be possible without too much of an adverse effect if it's really needed since you won't suffer from the reduced speed until the second frenzy actually ends. You could even stretch it to three times if it's really dire.

Frenzy is pretty bad.

Don't get me wrong, I love it thematically. Fighting on while on the edge of collapsing is a super cool narrative piece. It's just really hard to justify from a gamist point of view.

Once a day is fine, sure, unless you like to get into Athletics contests.

Twice a day is not ok for very long, unless your adventuring days are broken up by multiple long rests. The fact that a long rest only knocks down one level of exhaustion is crippling.

Even that wouldn't be so bad if the effect was really worth it. It isn't: there are tons of ways to use your bonus action in this game, and most of them don't cripple you. When I imagine a "frenzy" Barbarian, I imagine a madman with weapons in both hands.... but if you have weapons in both hands, actually using frenzy is redundant. Also, if you have pole arm master, shield master, or trigger great weapon master.

[Galactkaktus]

Once a day is fine, sure, unless you like to get into Athletics contests after the frenzy.

Twice a day is not ok for very long, unless your adventuring days are broken up by multiple long rests. The fact that a long rest only knocks down one level of exhaustion is crippling. Agree twice a day is not ok for long which is why i said twice in one day and not a day. I think that it would be perfectly fine to frenzy twice in one day and then just use it once a day from that point onwards if you need to and get rid of the exhaustion slowly from that point onwards.

Even that wouldn't be so bad if the effect was really worth it. It isn't: there are tons of ways to use your bonus action in this game, and most of them don't cripple you. When I imagine a "frenzy" Barbarian, I imagine a madman with weapons in both hands.... but if you have weapons in both hands, actually using frenzy is redundant. Also, if you have pole arm master, shield master, or trigger great weapon master.

Polearm master, Shield master and great weapon master are all feats so i reckon the berserker would get something else in return? And great weapon master would still give alot more bonus action attacks with frenzy than without frenzy.

[Pex]

And i learned something new that makes totem barbarians more interesting. But i really think the resistance to all except psychic is highly overrated since you already have resistance to slashing, piercing and bludgening with regular rage.

Fireball

There are lots of other damage spells and effects, of course, but Fireball is the stereotype. Damage spells are good in 5E. Enemy spellcasters will use them. Taking half damage and half of that if you make the saving throw is a big deal.

[Ritorix]

Bear totem deserves all the hype. It's not broken, but very effective and puts them at the top of the tank list.

Resistance is exercised more as a party gains levels and monsters diversify away from basic attacks. Spells, spell-like effects and breath weapons become common threats. Generally these target saves rather than armor class. Other tanks tend to have a superb AC but only average or good saves and no resistance. A failed save on a high-damage elemental attack can take a tank out of a fight too soon. Even making the save isn't good enough! While a paladin that easily makes a save takes half damage, a barb that makes the same save is down to a quarter damage, and still only half on a failed save. That keeps them in the fight longer.

I played one through Rise of Tiamat, up to the big queen of dragons and her breath weapons of every variety. I had over 400 effective HP with resists (w/ toughness feat). Despite that, in that last battle I used my class "roll to stay alive at 0" feature 3 times, and once for the half-orc racial. Anyone else would have been (and was) dead long before.

[Lombra]

Fireball

There are lots of other damage spells and effects, of course, but Fireball is the stereotype. Damage spells are good in 5E. Enemy spellcasters will use them. Taking half damage and half of that if you make the saving throw is a big deal.

You literally have advantage versus the most common saving throw that these elemental spells use, it really is not a big deal. You are gonna suck it if a solar wants to harm you, or if some evil being wants to inflict wounds, but unless the settimg is very on these kind of things, BPS is already the most kind of damage that you are getting hit by. I am playing a tiefling shadow monk and I love to take 1/4 damage from a failed fireball save, but it doesn't come up often (currently level 8).

As the levels grow more options come and more different damage types are introduced, but if you really are concerned by those things, races can get you covered versus most elements or necrotic and radiant from the beginning.

[Findulidas]

Fireball

There are lots of other damage spells and effects, of course, but Fireball is the stereotype. Damage spells are good in 5E. Enemy spellcasters will use them. Taking half damage and half of that if you make the saving throw is a big deal.

Yeah, I agree to this. Resistance to almost everything is good, specially when you already have loads of HP so with resistance you dont have to worry so much. All of the features that the barbarian have to make him tankier plus this makes you ever more tankier. Berserker barbarians should have better mechanics as well, exhaustion is just way too harsh. It should be more like stronger BM fighter mechanics but give a penalty at the time they are used like reckless attack I think.

[smcmike]

Polearm master, Shield master and great weapon master are all feats so i reckon the berserker would get something else in return?

They are all feats, yes. The best feats for a barbarian, actually. If you avoid the best feats for an ability that you might use once a day, that doesn't sound so great.

Frenzy is significantly better in a game where feats and multiclassing aren't allowed.



And great weapon master would still give alot more bonus action attacks with frenzy than without frenzy.

GWM would give the same number of bonus attacks with or without frenzy. The frenzy barbarian will get more attacks, yes, but at significant cost.

[Sigreid]

I'd say it depends on your party and your DM. If your party is melee heavy, then wolf totem is probably the stand out best. If your DM doesn't throw things with lots of different damage types at you in the important battles, bear is not really that great.

What I think people do over sell is the damage resistance benefit of rage. It is super sweet, I won't deny that. But people often talk about it as though it can be active in every fight, and it can't. You really have to think about whether the current fight is going to tax the party enough to make it worth it. And if you're wrong, you can find yourself having wasted it or not activated it in time when you needed it.

[Human Paragon 3]

It may not be overpowered to have resistance to elemental damage &c, but it feels amazing when it happens.

The fire bounces off my burly chest and I keep on fighting with barely a scorch mark!

[Galactkaktus]

They are all feats, yes. The best feats for a barbarian, actually. If you avoid the best feats for an ability that you might use once a day, that doesn't sound so great.

Frenzy is significantly better in a game where feats and multiclassing aren't allowed.



GWM would give the same number of bonus attacks with or without frenzy. The frenzy barbarian will get more attacks, yes, but at significant cost.

Disclaimar assuming bear at level 3

Just to take some examples at level 3
for half orcs the berserker just have more damage potential. In case of Variant humans you either have two persons with GWM and one can frenzy in important fights to boost the damage while the other can't. Or you have GWM vs PAM and when the frenzy barb do use his frenzy he will outdamage the other barb. All other times from a damage perspective will just be gwm vs PAM.

At level 4
For half orcs it will be a similar comparisson as humans level 3 since they only have one feat. For humans it gets abit more complicated but if the non frenzy barb takes GWM + PAM and the frenzy barb takes GWM + 2 str he will still outdamage the non frenzy barb when he frenzies. All other times the damage probably favors the non frenzy barb depends on how many killing blows you get which will probably be more in favor of the frenzy barb since he does more damage with his attacks.

At level 5
Extra attack makes the difference between having both PAM and GWM decrease since extra attack means more critts which lessen the impact of PAM. if you use reckless attack 100*(1-0,95^3)=14,26% would be the chance of getting atleast one critt.

At level 6
The frenzy barb gets mindless rage and the non frenzy barbs gets some non combat thing.

At level 8
For half orcs it's the same comparission as for humans at level 4. And since Str haven't been maxed yet the damage comparrison should be similar for humans. Still more damage for the frenzy dude when he does frenzy.

If we continues this comparison we need to wait for atleast level 12 before the frenzy human can't increase his damage with asi in an efficent maner and until level 16 for every other race assuming you take atleast GWM as the frenzy barb. And level 14 is probably in the berserkers favor.

I really don't see why frenzy is considered to be so bad it's a trade of resistance against non physical stuff for more damage that is harder to interact with.

[JackPhoenix]

Fireball

There are lots of other damage spells and effects, of course, but Fireball is the stereotype. Damage spells are good in 5E. Enemy spellcasters will use them. Taking half damage and half of that if you make the saving throw is a big deal.

Addendum to this: from a metagame perspective, you'll see enemy spellcasters using direct damage spells (and buffs) more often than crowd control spells, because having one (or more) players doing nothing but rolling saving throws during their turns (or not even that) is not fun, so the game tries to avoid that. Players may focus on CC more, because it's good force multiplier and more importantly, the GM isn't (generally) limited to one character, so he always has something to do (if nothing else, description of what's going on and actually running the game), even if some of the foes get disabled.

[Galactkaktus]

Addendum to this: from a metagame perspective, you'll see enemy spellcasters using direct damage spells (and buffs) more often than crowd control spells, because having one (or more) players doing nothing but rolling saving throws during their turns (or not even that) is not fun, so the game tries to avoid that. Players may focus on CC more, because it's good force multiplier and more importantly, the GM isn't (generally) limited to one character, so he always has something to do (if nothing else, description of what's going on and actually running the game), even if some of the foes get disabled.

You are correct it isn't fun so the other players should do their best to break the spellcasters concentration, counterspell it to begin with or maybe use an action to get them out of it in some cases. It's not like there aren't any tools available to deal with most crowd control spells. Using CC against the party is a great way to get players to be more aware of other characters in combat.

[smcmike]

I'm not saying that Frenzy doesn't provide any damage boost, only that the damage boost isn't as huge as it might first appear, tat exhaustion is a serious drawback, and that the Totem Spirit abilities are also quite nice.

Personally, I like the wolf totem ability at third level. My group is large, so in most scenarios advantage for the team seems like it's the best thing. On the other hand, they are showing a disturbing willingness to stand back and let me take the hits, so bear is also very valuable. Frenzy, not so much - I don't need to do damage as much as I need to stay standing.

Of course, I'm also multiclassing with Rogue, and planning to use shield master, so my bonus action is mostly spoken for.

[Galactkaktus]

I'm not saying that Frenzy doesn't provide any damage boost, only that the damage boost isn't as huge as it might first appear, tat exhaustion is a serious drawback, and that the Totem Spirit abilities are also quite nice.

Personally, I like the wolf totem ability at third level. My group is large, so in most scenarios advantage for the team seems like it's the best thing. On the other hand, they are showing a disturbing willingness to stand back and let me take the hits, so bear is also very valuable. Frenzy, not so much - I don't need to do damage as much as I need to stay standing.

Of course, I'm also multiclassing with Rogue, and planning to use shield master, so my bonus action is mostly spoken for.

I don't argue especificaly for the berserker just against bear totem xD. And with shield master neither bear totem or berserker makes alot of sense since you have a use for your bonus action and you have half or nothing on dex saves. Might actually try something similar myself sometime sounds like an interesting build. Guessing the rogue levels are mostly for expertise in athletics?

[Talamare]

Broken is an heavy word.
You gain resistance to elemental, necrotic, radiant and force damage while raging... how many scorching rays/encounter are you getting hit by? One or two fireballs/day past level 7, you are gonna be great versus elementals, but that's it. It isn't "broken" and depending on campaign and party it may even become a trap option.
It becomes better at high levels, but for the first couple levels it's basically useless.
All the bear does is make the barb's hit points last longer, but good adventuring days don't target only hit points.
If you can't deal with a bag of hit points as a DM then wonder how players can kill an hill giant in a properly designed encounter. Exactly, by not only targeting his HPs, and at least one encounter should challenge the barb to play a different game rather than staying in the face of the big bad until one of them falls unconcious.
Control enemies should always be present, you may as well play a game of who rolls the highest number on the d20 if damage and HPs are the only factors that come into play during encounters.

Broken is the appropriate word

It's never a trap option. A trap option is an option that actually makes you worse than having chosen nothing. It does not make you worse than having chosen nothing.

Resisting nearly All damage also has the side effect of Resisting Damage based Control effects. If you create a damage area in a scenario, a Bearbarian probably won't even care. Unless the damage is so high that it would borderline straight up kill everyone else.

Your only real option becomes using Hard Control spells which as others have already said... Spamming it in every encounter does not create an entertaining environment.


But people often talk about it as though it can be active in every fight, and it can't.

How many significant battle encounters does your DM throw at you per day?

[smcmike]

I don't argue especificaly for the berserker just against bear totem xD. And with shield master neither bear totem or berserker makes alot of sense since you have a use for your bonus action and you have half or nothing on dex saves. Might actually try something similar myself sometime sounds like an interesting build. Guessing the rogue levels are mostly for expertise in athletics?

A chance of taking no damage on DEX saves is slightly redundant with bear totem, but Far from completely so. Shield Master doesn't give half damage on a failure, like Evasion, though if I take enough rogue levels that feature will be totally redundant.

The idea started as simply using expertise for Athletics, but once you take a couple of rogue levels, it is very tempting to keep going, so the thought is maybe Barbarian 5/Rogue 15. The defensive abilities of the rogue are actually pretty tanklike when combined with barbarian, and sneak attack gives pretty competitive offense.

But this isn't really a barbarian build, I guess.

[Galactkaktus]

Broken is the appropriate word
It's never a trap option. A trap option is an option that actually makes you worse than having chosen nothing. It does not make you worse than having chosen nothing.


It will never be worse than choosing nothing but it can be mechanically the same as choosing nothing. And it's quite the opportunity cost to choosing nothing.

[Galactkaktus]

A chance of taking no damage on DEX saves is slightly redundant with bear totem, but Far from completely so. Shield Master doesn't give half damage on a failure, like Evasion, though if I take enough rogue levels that feature will be totally redundant.

The idea started as simply using expertise for Athletics, but once you take a couple of rogue levels, it is very tempting to keep going, so the thought is maybe Barbarian 5/Rogue 15. The defensive abilities of the rogue are actually pretty tanklike when combined with barbarian, and sneak attack gives pretty competitive offense.

But this isn't really a barbarian build, I guess.

This is great by being corrected on stuff like details on shield master i learn stuff. And rogue multiclass really benefits from getting the extra attack from some other class always thought of fighter myself for some fancy maneuvers (Riposte seems really fun with sneak attack presenting the enemies with a choice attack me and risk another sneak attack or let me be?) and being less MAD by just focusing on dex. But str is fun with grappling and shoving stuff especially with expertise in athletics.

[Sigreid]

How many significant battle encounters does your DM throw at you per day?

It varies, and it's not always obvious how much danger we are in at the start.

[Lombra]

Now let's not just disagree dr the sake of it:

Broken is the appropriate word

Broken means that it is the best option in every possible scenario and that there would never be drawbacks to it, which is false. Many other totems and paths are a valid option that can be more useful than bear.


It's never a trap option. A trap option is an option that actually makes you worse than having chosen nothing. It does not make you worse than having chosen nothing.

Actually, since you can't choose nothing, trap option defines as one option that is strictly less useful than any other option, like in a magic-light campaign, for example, or a grittier, more medieval context.


Resisting nearly All damage also has the side effect of Resisting Damage based Control effects. If you create a damage area in a scenario, a Bearbarian probably won't even care. Unless the damage is so high that it would borderline straight up kill everyone else.

I think I don't understand this. You are saying that you can resist unlisted damage types? Why would a DM use such things?


Your only real option becomes using Hard Control spells which as others have already said... Spamming it in every encounter does not create an entertaining environment.

Why does every encounter have to deal with the barbarian? Mind control, difficult terrain, charming, hard choices, highly mobile enemies, all can fit in an adventuring day, you don't need to design encounters to beat the party if you properly plan a varied and etherogeneal adventuring day.

[smcmike]

And rogue multiclass really benefits from getting the extra attack from some other class always thought of fighter myself for some fancy maneuvers (Riposte seems really fun with sneak attack presenting the enemies with a choice attack me and risk another sneak attack or let me be?) and being less MAD by just focusing on dex. But str is fun with grappling and shoving stuff especially with expertise in athletics.

Yeah, battlemaster/rogue seems very good. I rolled well enough to end up with 16/16/16 for the physical stats after half-orc adjustments, so I wanted to do something MAD. To fill in that reaction spot, I might need to get sentinel too.

[Sigreid]

I think I don't understand this. You are saying that you can resist unlisted damage types? Why would a DM use such things?



I think the point was that some control effects like wall of fire are less of a deterrent to an enraged bear barbarian as they will hurt less.

[Potato_Priest]

Basically, I like the bearbarian because it's reliable. As a frenzy barbarian, I always nearly **** myself whenever I ran up against something with a non-physical damage type, because suddenly the party tank was being cut through like butter. When I'm a bearbarian, I don't suddenly get turned into a sheet of paper when facing enemies using a non physical damage type. I get to be an awesome, tough-as-nails barbarian when I'm fighting undead, elementals, dragons, and almost anything in the monster manual, not just on the 3 encounters where we meet enemies specializing in physical damage.

I've played beserker barbarian and bear totem barbarian, and I can say that beserker is not terrible, but bear is my definite preference.

[Mith]

Also, Bear is useful if you have a Red Dragonborn who may use their fire breath.

[djreynolds]

Any magic weapon will pierce through normal rage.

Bear has resistance to even magic weapons, they are only vulnerable to psychic damage.

The potential of this resistance to all but psychic damage is too good to pass up.

Now lets be honest mindless rage is awesome, I have played a level 20 bear totem with resilient wisdom, a +8 wisdom save, and still failed versus their higher end spell DCs. Grazzt is a 23, so failure is common.

But fear and charm can be mitigated. A devotion paladin has 10 and 30ft auras versus fear and charm, and all paladins at 10th have an immunity to fear aura. Also heroism, calm emotions, even casting protection from evil on the barbarian are ways to beat some issues. And lesser and greater restoration and 14th paladin lay on hands and arcana clerics can clear away nasty enemy de-buffs

Advantage from the wolf is awesome, no doubt. A champion fighter next to wolf totem has a real chance to score multiple crits on every turn

But the bear totem is basically taking half damage from almost every source of damage from 3rd level on. Like stated before at higher levels some of the enemy will pierce through rage's resistance to slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning from a non-magical source. The bear totem's resistance's potential never diminishes

[qube]

fireball

*puts on maths hat*
Bear warrior
Fireball does 8d6 damage, or 28 damage;
supposing you have a +1 reflex save vs DC 15, but noting you have advantage, that makes
(13²/400) * 28 + (400-13² /400) * 14 = 20 damage
so, bear saves you 10 damage for every fireball you get hit with.
Beserker
supposing you use frenzy 1/day, and during a combat that lasts 3 rounds (2 attacks per round)
suppose your attack is +7 attack (2d6+4str+2rage damage ~ 13 damage) with adv vs AC 15, and you fight reckless
(400-39-7² /400)* 13 + (39/400 *(13+7) ) = 12 damage per attack
so, frenzy gives you 72 extra damage, with a level of exhaustion for the rest of the day
Wolf
suppose 4 rages per day, against combats that last on avr 3 rounds each = 12 rounds
supposing you have a melee rogue (+7 attack, 1d8+3d6+4 ~ 19 damage) vs AC 15.
his 12 attacks go from normal to adavantage
(12/20 * 19 ) + (1/20 * (19+15) ) = 13 damage
(400-39-7² /400)* 19 + (39/400 *(19+15) ) = 18 damage
so, wolf gives you 60 damage damage advantage

consider the vast amount of variables, they do seem relatively balanced.

But why is bear totem more popular? I would say consistancy/safety. You basically have your 'half damage' each and every rage. For the same reason many perfer a 2d6 weapon over a 1d12. (usually it's not that 0.5 average damage that does it, but the fact 2d6 has a very low chance of rolling low).


GWM extra attackthe extra attack when crit ability, even with advantage & 2 attacks per round, only triggers 1 in 5 rounds (18.5% to be correct). while there's a obvious overlap between 'every round during a specific combat' and 'on avr 1/5 chance', decreases the value of GWM, but only with a small margin ...

Oppositely, note how GWM is usually taken for the -5/+10 damage boost. The advantage of the damage boost obviously increases if you have more attacks. Even if there's an overlap between frenzy and GWM, you still get more attacks, unless you crit every round (at which case ... screw this noise, you should have been rogue :p), and thus this increases the value of GWM again.

[Tanarii]

Any magic weapon will pierce through normal rage.

Bear has resistance to even magic weapons, they are only vulnerable to psychic damage.Barbarian Rage resistance to P/B/S works against both nonmagical and magical weapons.



Beserker[
supposing you use frenzy 1/day, and during a combat that lasts 3 rounds (2 attacks per round)That seems like an unoptimizable use of Frenzy. Not that players are experts at judging how long a combat will take or anything. IMX a 3 round combat is an Easy combat, or a well-handled Medium combat. Unless it's a small dungeon room or narrow corridor or ambush situation with melee within one round of movement to start off.

That said, 3 rounds of the Barbarian getting in big Melee attacks, as opposed to moving up in full cover and throwing Javelins, is probably reasonable.

In case you can't tell I was typing this as I thought about how I usually see combats play out. :smallamused:

[Waazraath]

I don't know. At my tables, I've seen so far 2 barbarians, one frenzy, one bear totem. At this forum, the first seems to be loathed and the second glorified. So far, they function both perfectly fine, without one of them overclassing the other. If I ever get to play one myself, I probably go for eagle totem.

[Anonymouswizard]

The thing with Barbearian is that it covers almost everything that normal rage doesn't.

Wolf is dependant on party makeup (my current 5e game is all ranged spellcasters plus my bard/paladin, so it wouldn't be useful there). Almost all of Eagle's protection is against stuff that standard Rage already covers (although not all of it), and it's dash bonus can be picked up with two levels of Rogue (which also gives Expertise in two skills). However Barbearian protects against almost everything normal Rage doesn't, fireballs, damage cantrips, dragon sneezes, a wormhole being opened inside your chest. It's not the best, there is a distinct possibility that it'll be useless, but that also drops with levels.

Frenzy is interesting. In a featless game it's not exactly terrible, but in a game with them it comes one level earlier than PAM at a much greater cost (exhaustion versus a three step drop in damage die). Sure, you're limited to a small number of weapons with PAM that cap at 1d10 damage, but reach + opportunity attacks when they move into range are also good.

Plus exhaustion is just stupid. If a character has four levels when you reach a long rest it's probably better to kill them and raise them from the dead.

I'd say that Frenzy would be better if exhaustion went down on Short Rests as well, that way a Berserker can get their bonus attacks two or three times an adventuring day without too much trouble. Although I'd likely rule that it just doesn't cause exhaustion, it wouldn't be that over powered compared to other sources of bonus action attacks.

[Galactkaktus]

Frenzy is interesting. In a featless game it's not exactly terrible, but in a game with them it comes one level earlier than PAM at a much greater cost (exhaustion versus a three step drop in damage die). Sure, you're limited to a small number of weapons with PAM that cap at 1d10 damage, but reach + opportunity attacks when they move into range are also good.

PAM comes with the cost of having lower str or not having GWM at level 4 so this isn't really a fair comaprisson.

[Anonymouswizard]

PAM comes with the cost of having lower str or not having GWM at level 4 so this isn't really a fair comaprisson.

Frenzy comes at the cost of not having resistance to all damage (while raging) or not giving allies advantage on melee attacks (while raging).

I was comparing 'feature' to 'feature', note that if we're going to use 'can't take an ASI or GWM at the same level' as a downside to PAM, we should also count 'can't take Totem abilities' as a downside to Frenzy. Feats don't get special exceptions to subclasses.

[Galactkaktus]

Frenzy comes at the cost of not having resistance to all damage (while raging) or not giving allies advantage on melee attacks (while raging).

I was comparing 'feature' to 'feature', note that if we're going to use 'can't take an ASI or GWM at the same level' as a downside to PAM, we should also count 'can't take Totem abilities' as a downside to Frenzy. Feats don't get special exceptions to subclasses.

But asi is a fair comparisson to PAM comes at the same level and why should the totem barbarian get a feature at level 4 while the berserker barbarian gets no feature at level 4? By including PAM in your comparission and not letting the berserker take anything you scew the comparission by quite abit.

[Lombra]

Frenzy comes at the cost of not having resistance to all damage (while raging) or not giving allies advantage on melee attacks (while raging).

I was comparing 'feature' to 'feature', note that if we're going to use 'can't take an ASI or GWM at the same level' as a downside to PAM, we should also count 'can't take Totem abilities' as a downside to Frenzy. Feats don't get special exceptions to subclasses.

But that's dishonest. Feats to feats and ASIs to ASIs is how you should compare, and a berserker will have one more ASI/feat over totem if totem wants to focus on damage. Class abilities go 1 on 1 so they do not provide opportunity differences.

[djreynolds]

Barbarian Rage resistance to P/B/S works against both nonmagical and magical weapons.


You're right, only stoneskin, avatar of battle, and HAM are the non-magical types. Nice catch

[Anonymouswizard]

But asi is a fair comparisson to PAM comes at the same level and why should the totem barbarian get a feature at level 4 while the berserker barbarian gets no feature at level 4? By including PAM in your comparission and not letting the berserker take anything you scew the comparission by quite abit.

I'm not, I'm just saying that the Totem Barbarian can, for example, take PAM and get Frenzy's benefit (bonus action attacks). I'm assuming that the Berserker's ability to choose a feat makes up for not having the level 3 totem abilities.


But that's dishonest. Feats to feats and ASIs to ASIs is how you should compare, and a berserker will have one more ASI/feat over totem if totem wants to focus on damage. Class abilities go 1 on 1 so they do not provide opportunity differences.

I disagree with this, because Feats/ASIs are given at class levels, and two classes get additional feats, Feats/ASIs might as well be 'pick your class feature for this level'. In my mind a feat should be about as powerful as a class feature, as it's entirely possible that for some reason you get a Feat at a level where your buddy gets more Expertise or whatever.

I was pointing out that 'taking PAM means you can't take that' is the same argument as 'taking Berserker means you can't take Totem', a Totem Barbarian never has to take a feat, but they have the opportunity to and get a Berserker's chief benefit at a lower cost.

To see balance you have to look at a thing as a whole. What I'm saying is that Totem is better (looking only at level 3 abilities) because it gives you stuff you can't get a better version of elsewhere (except maybe for Eagle totem). Now my solution is to buff Frenzy to make it a viable way to get reliable BA attacks, and in my mind it would be fine if Exhaustion healed on a short rest so you could get up to three frenzies in an 'intended adventuring day' (eight encounters, two short rests) without taking penalties for days.

EDIt: forgot you can get close to totem features with spells, which makes them a little worse but doesn't suffer from Frenzy's 'alternatives are always on'.

[Nifft]

My impression is that Bear Totem (at level 3) is super-popular because of two factors:

- It's awesome. It shares this factor with several other options, but this needs to be said. Taking half damage from practically everything feels good.

- It's awesome in isolation. You don't need to know the rest of your party's composition. You don't need to know how they will behave in play. Your awesome class feature will perform awesomely even if the rest of your party are bone-brained buffle-bonks.

So it's not only awesome, it's also safe. That's a very special combination.

[Galactkaktus]

To see balance you have to look at a thing as a whole. What I'm saying is that Totem is better (looking only at level 3 abilities) because it gives you stuff you can't get a better version of elsewhere (except maybe for Eagle totem). Now my solution is to buff Frenzy to make it a viable way to get reliable BA attacks, and in my mind it would be fine if Exhaustion healed on a short rest so you could get up to three frenzies in an 'intended adventuring day' (eight encounters, two short rests) without taking penalties for days.

And the whole thing is that if a bear totem barbarian takes PAM for bonus action attack the berserker will be one asi ahead which is huge on lower levels. And even if we go all the way to level 20 the frenzy barb will still do more damage in as many fights as he frenzies while being able to tank more physical damage since he gets one more asi to put in con than the totem barbarian that focuses on damage.

[Zalabim]

Frenzy comes at the cost of not having resistance to all damage (while raging) or not giving allies advantage on melee attacks (while raging).

I was comparing 'feature' to 'feature', note that if we're going to use 'can't take an ASI or GWM at the same level' as a downside to PAM, we should also count 'can't take Totem abilities' as a downside to Frenzy. Feats don't get special exceptions to subclasses.
That's fair, but there's no other option than berserker if you want a feature at level 3 that raises your personal damage potential. If you want to kill things, the competition between frenzy, wolf, eagle, and bear is pretty one-sided. For now, anyway.

Frenzy is interesting. In a featless game it's not exactly terrible, but in a game with them it comes one level earlier than PAM at a much greater cost (exhaustion versus a three step drop in damage die). Sure, you're limited to a small number of weapons with PAM that cap at 1d10 damage, but reach + opportunity attacks when they move into range are also good.
I wouldn't personally bank on any strategy that requires an enemy to run at a raging barbarian. That's just my gut talking though.


Plus exhaustion is just stupid. If a character has four levels when you reach a long rest it's probably better to kill them and raise them from the dead.

I'd say that Frenzy would be better if exhaustion went down on Short Rests as well, that way a Berserker can get their bonus attacks two or three times an adventuring day without too much trouble. Although I'd likely rule that it just doesn't cause exhaustion, it wouldn't be that over powered compared to other sources of bonus action attacks.
This I basically agree with anyway. I like the flavor, but the mechanics don't really pay off. I think the flavor could have been achieved with better mechanics by making frenzy a once per short rest thing. And that's with acknowledging that there's strong indications that adventures aren't supposed to make up the majority of an adventurer's life. There really should be down time. That can be used to recover Hit Dice and reduce exhaustion levels as well as just not feeling like the world is in danger every day.

[DanyBallon]

I think that one of the reason why there are many players that prefer Bear totem over Berserker or any other totem is that it help survivability. Everyone wants to play their character for a long time, and any means that help them survive longer is often well perceived. Its the same reason why Constitution is seen as an important stats for all the classes, as it get you more HP, and more HP means you can survive longer.

As for Berserker's Frenzy features, there is something else going against it, the perception player have that we take away something from them when their character suffer from exhaustion. It's only natural to want our character to be heroic and nearly invincible, and having exhaustion level is a severe breach into the character invincibility.

I think that the other barbarians options are more popular for people who don't value "survivability" as much, and/or feel that more HP is not the only way to help your character live a long and trepid adventuring life.

[Anonymouswizard]

I think that one of the reason why there are many players that prefer Bear totem over Berserker or any other totem is that it help survivability. Everyone wants to play their character for a long time, and any means that help them survive longer is often well perceived. Its the same reason why Constitution is seen as an important stats for all the classes, as it get you more HP, and more HP means you can survive longer.

Yeah, which means it's always fun to dig into games where 'optimal' and 'can absorb the most damage' are not identical. It reminds me of Rocket Age where, all other things being equal, a point in an Attribute costs the same as a point in a skill but is over twice as good (partially because Attributes double as hp) but to get a good modifier you'll want 3-4 ranks in a skill and potentially a specialty or trait.

[qube]

As for Berserker's Frenzy features, there is something else going against it, the perception player have that we take away something from them when their character suffer from exhaustion. It's only natural to want our character to be heroic and nearly invincible, and having exhaustion level is a severe breach into the character invincibility.not really. I recall a very much loved feat in D&D 3.5, which allowed you to take a penalty to AC for a bonus on damage (like great weapon master, but then, -5 AC for +10 damage) ... heck, consider how reckless attack is popular :)

What goes against Frenzied beserker, is that you heal only one exhaustion per long rest. If you'd be able to heal all levels of exhaustion during a long rest, frenzied beserkers would be WAY more popular ... en just 1/long rest. Being able to do it only once per long rest, and then suffer punalties until you take that long rest ... ht simply doesn't feel reliable (that you'll not be able to use it when you want to)

[DanyBallon]

Yeah, which means it's always fun to dig into games where 'optimal' and 'can absorb the most damage' are not identical. It reminds me of Rocket Age where, all other things being equal, a point in an Attribute costs the same as a point in a skill but is over twice as good (partially because Attributes double as hp) but to get a good modifier you'll want 3-4 ranks in a skill and potentially a specialty or trait.

I would argue, that being optimal is not a necessity either. It sure was in 3.P and 4e, but it isn't anymore. Being optimal, sure help, but you can do without and still be effective :smallsmile:

[Anonymouswizard]

I would argue, that being optimal is not a necessity either. It sure was in 3.P and 4e, but it isn't anymore. Being optimal, sure help, but you can do without and still be effective :smallsmile:

I mean, I tend to play games with an optimisation range greater than 5e (it comes with being skill based and/or point buy, rather than class and level) but lower than 3.X. I mean, in Rocket Age what's more important is that you hit +8 to +10 in your key skills, after that it really doesn't matter if your Strength is 2 or 4.

Most people will try to optimise if given the chance, it's just most people are bad at it. It's how you end up with 3.X characters such as 'a fighter who took toughness for every feat'. They just optimise towards different ends.

Which in many games is great. It's how you get parties with a Technician, a Rocket Pilot, a Martian Priest, and a combat Roboman. Or a Rocket Ranger, Europan emissary, Chanari scavenger, and reporter.

[smcmike]

*puts on maths hat*

Beserker
supposing you use frenzy 1/day, and during a combat that lasts 3 rounds (2 attacks per round)
suppose your attack is +7 attack (2d6+4str+2rage damage ~ 13 damage) with adv vs AC 15, and you fight reckless
(400-39-7² /400)* 13 + (39/400 *(13+7) ) = 12 damage per attack
so, frenzy gives you 72 extra damage, with a level of exhaustion for the rest of the day

This math does not make sense.

If combat lasts 3 rounds total, Frenzy adds 2 attacks to the combat. That's 24 damage, not 72. Assuming you meant 3 rounds AFTER the round in which rage began, it's 36.



the extra attack when crit ability, even with advantage & 2 attacks per round, only triggers 1 in 5 rounds (18.5% to be correct). while there's a obvious overlap between '[I]every round during a specific combat' and 'on avr 1/5 chance', decreases the value of GWM, but only with a small margin ...

GWM also triggers when you drop an enemy. This seems likely to occur at least once in an average combat, maybe a lot more, depending on party size and makeup as well as the enemy. Also, it's worth considering the possibility of adding in Champion for crit-fishing.

[Tanarii]

GWM also triggers when you drop an enemy. This seems likely to occur at least once in an average combat, maybe a lot more, depending on party size and makeup as well as the enemy. Also, it's worth considering the possibility of adding in Champion for crit-fishing.Conversely, GWM bonus action attack also requires 2 enemies to be adjacent when you drop one of them.

And yes, I'm aware of SA's various clarifications on bonus action timing. But GWM specifies when you make the attack. It happens "when you make the critical hit or reduce a creature to 0 hit points".

[strangebloke]

The issue with frenzy is expectation management.

Resource management is already very hard. It's hard to know if a combat will be severely taxing or not, and its hard to know how many encounters are left in the day. Since frenzy is functionally 1/day, it's likely that in many adventuring days it will never get used. Using it more than once in a day is an even harder decision to justify.

It's also, mathematically, not that great. But that's completely secondary to everything else.

[smcmike]

Conversely, GWM bonus action attack also requires 2 enemies to be adjacent when you drop one of them.

And yes, I'm aware of SA's various clarifications on bonus action timing. But GWM specifies when you make the attack. It happens "when you make the critical hit or reduce a creature to 0 hit points".

I see what you mean, but I don't read it that way. Not really interested in arguing one interpretation over another, but this is a non factor in games where the DM follows Sage Advice or has my interpretation.

[Galactkaktus]

The issue with frenzy is expectation management.

Resource management is already very hard. It's hard to know if a combat will be severely taxing or not, and its hard to know how many encounters are left in the day. Since frenzy is functionally 1/day, it's likely that in many adventuring days it will never get used. Using it more than once in a day is an even harder decision to justify.

It's also, mathematically, not that great. But that's completely secondary to everything else.

I have no problem using it a second time in an intense adventuring day. I'm not thrilled to do it but i will if it gets rough. I might even use it a third time if i really really need to.

[qube]

This math does not make sense.

If combat lasts 3 rounds total, Frenzy adds 2 attacks to the combat. That's 24 damage, not 72. Assuming you meant 3 rounds AFTER the round in which rage began, it's 36.hmmm ... you seem to be correct in both accounts. I accidently mùultiplied by two for extra attack, and forgot you can't use your bonus attack on the turn you rage (as that too is a bonus action). you end up with

12 extra damage per turn, during the combat you frenzy (1 combat per long rest)
in comparison, wolf
5 extra damage ter turn with the wolf totem (4 combats per long rest at lvl 6+)

[Loaraxious]

Not so much now, but in the beginning, reading:"resistance to all but psychic" made everyone drool. It really is not that much better then any other path or totem. Personally I love frenzy for the frightened immunity and the flavour of it. Not to mention that you can mix any totem for the path features, you may go: bear bear bear as well as: wolf bear eagle or eagle wolf eagle

i have a question. Can a Half-Orc be half Orc half Dwarf?

[DanyBallon]

i have a question. Can a Half-Orc be half Orc half Dwarf?

The PHB assume that Half-Orc are of human and orc heritage, but ask your DM if he don't mind letting you be half-orc/half-dwarf. As for myself, I would let you do, but you won't get any other mechanical benefits other than the ones under the Half-Orc description in the PHB.

[GorogIrongut]

i have a question. Can a Half-Orc be half Orc half Dwarf?
Not without the dwarf shaming his ancestors, being forced to shave his beard and having to take the Slayer's Rites...

[Citan]

Hi OP hi all!
Getting in the thread late, but still...

"Why is the bear totem barbarian so popular?"
First, disclaimer: it's only the 3rd level benefit that is extremely popular. Other benefits are much less often put in awe ime. :)

Now for the reasons. It's easy: two of them.
1) It's extremely easy to understand and use: you rage = just beware of psychic: AOE, natural effects and what not, you resist everything.
2) Consequently, it's "lazy optimization": no carefulness involved (eagle, beware ending your turn in too dangerous a zone because you got drunk on your mobility) nor smartness (unlike wolf, who has to keep coordination with teammates for benefit to be worth -in fact, bear makes stupidity less harsh on consequences-).

And lazy, mindless optimization is most always favored (no judgement, just stating fact). It's just efficient whatever situation you are in, whatever allies your party has.
That's basically it, and that's why it's the top totem option taken, especially in multiclass (the same like Diviner Wizard is maybe the top or at least second top in optimization guides, especially on multiclass, although Portent's value is actually very variable from day to day).

To be fair though...

A. In the hands of a proper mind if I may use that strange formulation ;), Bear can create its own glorious situations.

The most simple example is pairing the Barbarian with an AOE caster (Barb grab Shield Master if you really want to be really sure. ^^). Let Barb be a Barb, but significantly further in the front while other martials stay in back or keep ready to pull back at a moment's notice. Once enemies are neatly gathered around, unleash your AOE and let the Barbarian grin its widest smile. :)

B. In a properly "global-optimized" party with just a Cleric, a Warding Bond, although taxing on Cleric life, may offer a very close benefit on a Frenzy Barbarian, so the lad can eat the cake AND the cherries that were set on top of it.
More generally, in "party optimization", each and every Barbarian Path and "subpath" may prove the best one "head and shoulders ahead" depending on party composition.

[Galactkaktus]

Hi OP hi all!
Getting in the thread late, but still...

"Why is the bear totem barbarian so popular?"
First, disclaimer: it's only the 3rd level benefit that is extremely popular. Other benefits are much less often put in awe ime. :)

Now for the reasons. It's easy: two of them.
1) It's extremely easy to understand and use: you rage = just beware of psychic: AOE, natural effects and what not, you resist everything.
2) Consequently, it's "lazy optimization": no carefulness involved (eagle, beware ending your turn in too dangerous a zone because you got drunk on your mobility) nor smartness (unlike wolf, who has to keep coordination with teammates for benefit to be worth -in fact, bear makes stupidity less harsh on consequences-).

And lazy, mindless optimization is most always favored (no judgement, just stating fact). It's just efficient whatever situation you are in, whatever allies your party has.
That's basically it, and that's why it's the top totem option taken, especially in multiclass (the same like Diviner Wizard is maybe the top or at least second top in optimization guides, especially on multiclass, although Portent's value is actually very variable from day to day).

To be fair though...

A. In the hands of a proper mind if I may use that strange formulation ;), Bear can create its own glorious situations.

The most simple example is pairing the Barbarian with an AOE caster (Barb grab Shield Master if you really want to be really sure. ^^). Let Barb be a Barb, but significantly further in the front while other martials stay in back or keep ready to pull back at a moment's notice. Once enemies are neatly gathered around, unleash your AOE and let the Barbarian grin its widest smile. :)

B. In a properly "global-optimized" party with just a Cleric, a Warding Bond, although taxing on Cleric life, may offer a very close benefit on a Frenzy Barbarian, so the lad can eat the cake AND the cherries that were set on top of it.
More generally, in "party optimization", each and every Barbarian Path and "subpath" may prove the best one "head and shoulders ahead" depending on party composition.

So it's really popular because people are lazy? And i really liked your idea of using the resistance provocatively instead of when the dm decides to use stuff that the resistances actually applies to and then choose to use it on the bear totem barb and also use it after you rage can be relevant if you don't win initiative.

[Citan]

So it's really popular because people are lazy? And i really liked your idea of using the resistance provocatively instead of when the dm decides to use stuff that the resistances actually applies to and then choose to use it on the bear totem barb and also use it after you rage can be relevant if you don't win initiative.
Well, I was a tad provocative when writing that, but I sincerely think there is some significant truth to it (I'm pretty sure this is the case for a majority of multiclass characters at least ^^). :smallbiggrin:

After all, any other option either requires a bit of wits (other Totem) or has a heavy tax after the fact (Frenzy). And most threads here are about "in the void" optimization, without taking any party or campaign context into account. So it's fairly intuitive to favor choices that work in the widest array of situations.

And yes, the "moth light" tactic is fun and efficient, but to be fair, party generally don't spend its all day blowing things up with AOE. So for that few times when you want to create it, any character with Absorb Elements (like Eldricht Knight) or buffed with Warding Bond/Protection from Energy and a nice Dex save would work as efficiently (maybe even better in the case of Absorb Elements since it also boosts the next weapon attack). :)

Edit: in fact, thinking a bit about it, I think the best ever (considering no multiclass) would probably be an Arcane Trickster: highest DEX save (in most builds) and Evasion means you generally don't fear AOE in the first place. And you can learn Absorb Elements for those unlucky rolls. So you really don't care about being the center of an AOE. However, contrarily to a Barbarian, you would have trouble surviving in the first place if you voluntarily attract hordes around you. ^^

That's why the best for being the "AOE center mass" would be a multiclass mixing those two: Medium armor + shield + Rage = high resistance against mundane attacks, Uncanny Dodge = high resistance against one powerful attack, Dexterity proficient (start Rogue) + Danger Sense + high Dex or possible Shield Master (because it also gives other benefits) + Evasion means you laugh in the face of Fireballs and the like. :)

[DanyBallon]

So it's really popular because people are lazy?

Maybe not every player are lazy, but some of us are! Otherwise there wouldn't be a need for all those guides to Race X or Class Y on the internet :smallwink:

[Saeviomage]

People always ignore the fact that the frenzy bonus action attack isn't tied to you taking the attack action. To my mind, that's pretty big benefit. It means (for starters) you can keep rage going even while you're doing other things with your standard action. It means that you can keep intimidating presence on a target and still make attacks.

Although I personally think the whole exhaustion mechanic is ludicrous.

[Galactkaktus]

People always ignore the fact that the frenzy bonus action attack isn't tied to you taking the attack action. To my mind, that's pretty big benefit. It means (for starters) you can keep rage going even while you're doing other things with your standard action. It means that you can keep intimidating presence on a target and still make attacks.

Although I personally think the whole exhaustion mechanic is ludicrous.

That is actually pretty cool shove grapple and an attack in one turn seems pretty nice for example.

[McNinja]

It's popular because people look at the other path, Berserker, see that they gain a level of exhaustion, and get turned off immediately. I personally hate frenzy because of that and you can get other thing to use your bonus action for... like an additional attack if you dual wield.

[Lombra]

That is actually pretty cool shove grapple and an attack in one turn seems pretty nice for example.

Well you can already do that as long as you have a free hand. Shove and grapple are variations of attacks that always trigger the attack action. But you can heal/dodge/dash/stuff and still make an attack.

[Kobard]

"Lazy optimization" is a bit harsh of a verdict for the Bear Totem Barbarian, but I kinda agree; however, that also works to its favor for new players. We have a bearbarian in our campaign right now. She is new to 5E. She likes simple characters that do not require too much work. She likes effective characters. And it felt great being able to recommend the bearbarian to her and watch her shine (and have fun) as a damage sponge. (We also renamed the bear totem to "owlbear totem" since she likes owlbears.) We also already have an Open Hand monk in the party who spends most of their ki on control options (e.g., stun, knock down, etc.), so a wolf totem would have been redundant. The bear totem is simple, but simple works.

[Sigreid]

"Lazy optimization" is a bit harsh of a verdict for the Bear Totem Barbarian, but I kinda agree; however, that also works to its favor for new players. We have a bearbarian in our campaign right now. She is new to 5E. She likes simple characters that do not require too much work. She likes effective characters. And it felt great being able to recommend the bearbarian to her and watch her shine (and have fun) as a damage sponge. (We also renamed the bear totem to "owlbear totem" since she likes owlbears.) We also already have an Open Hand monk in the party who spends most of their ki on control options (e.g., stun, knock down, etc.), so a wolf totem would have been redundant. The bear totem is simple, but simple works.

There's really nothing wrong with "lazy" options.

"Why wouldn't you want to do things the easy way? Work smarter, not harder."
--Scrooge McDuck

[Tanarii]

I personally hate frenzy because of that and you can get other thing to use your bonus action for... like an additional attack if you dual wield.TWF is usually an inferior option. In fact, except for the obvious one if the DM allows PAM or GWM in his game, Barbarians don't usually have a reliable need for a bonus action.

(Edit: obvious there are exceptions. For example, TWF Hand Axes can be superior DPR for a Raging Barbarian to a Great Axe at levels 1-4, since they get to add their Rage bonus damage twice. Although it changes the damage distribution curve significantly.
Damage distribution for level 2-4 Barbarian (not raging)
http://anydice.com/program/c9dc)


I see what you mean, but I don't read it that way. Not really interested in arguing one interpretation over another, but this is a non factor in games where the DM follows Sage Advice or has my interpretation.Interesting. I was saying that my 'interpretation' matches SA, and is therefor both RAW and RAI. But if you don't read it that way, nor care that I read it that way, it does become kind of a moot point. :smallamused:

[smcmike]

Conversely, GWM bonus action attack also requires 2 enemies to be adjacent when you drop one of them.

And yes, I'm aware of SA's various clarifications on bonus action timing. But GWM specifies when you make the attack. It happens "when you make the critical hit or reduce a creature to 0 hit points".


Interesting. I was saying that my 'interpretation' matches SA, and is therefor both RAW and RAI. But if you don't read it that way, nor care that I read it that way, it does become kind of a moot point. :smallamused:

Ok, you've piqued my interest. My quick google search indicated this from Sage Advice:

"The intent is that you can move before taking the bonus action in the Great Weapon Fighting feat."

I also see several tweets indicating the same. That doesn't seem consistent with your statement that the second target must be adjacent. Am I missing something in your argument or Sage Advice?

In terms of the text, I think "when" is ambiguous, and that it probably doesn't mean "immediately, before doing anything else" in this case. This is similar to how it appears to be used in Flurry of Blows, War Priest, as well as "whenever" in the extra attack feature. If they intended GWM to work only on adjacent, in-range targets, I would expect it to be worded like Horde Breaker.

[jas61292]

Plus bears are awesome. Not much else says barbarian like almost half-a-ton of fur and muscle storming through nature and ripping things apart.

To be honest, I think this is a much larger part of it than it gets credit for. The resistances are nice, but really incredibly overrated, since you already resist the majority of damage you will
take while raging. Really, the fact that it is a bear and bears are cool is so huge. And it can't hurt that a moon druids first totally OP form is a bear, making bearbarian such a fun class combo. I honestly doubt the subclass would be as popular (or add highly rated) if it were the badger totem or something like that, because perception of something is nearly as important as its actual function.

[mephnick]

To be honest, I think this is a much larger part of it than it gets credit for.

True, never thought much about that. As an avid hiker/trail-builder from BC with first person experience, I can attest that bears are awesome, but also very not awesome. But they are not awesome because of how awesome they are.

But if I wanted to be something that, as the dictionary puts it, "inspires reverence or fear"..I would probably be a bear. Hence, Bear Totem.

[JumboWheat01]

I honestly doubt the subclass would be as popular (or add highly rated) if it were the badger totem or something like that, because perception of something is nearly as important as its actual function.

I dunno, man, them honey badgers took over the net a few years back. Plus I could totally see that being a gnome or halfling totem animal.

[Tanarii]

Ok, you've piqued my interest. My quick google search indicated this from Sage Advice:

"The intent is that you can move before taking the bonus action in the Great Weapon Fighting feat."

I also see several tweets indicating the same. That doesn't seem consistent with your statement that the second target must be adjacent. Am I missing something in your argument or Sage Advice?Those tweets seem to directly contradict what I was recalling the SA document says about it, which looking it up is:
"You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action specifies when it must take place (PH, 189)."

OTOH ...


In terms of the text, I think "when" is ambiguous, and that it probably doesn't mean "immediately, before doing anything else" in this case. This is similar to how it appears to be used in Flurry of Blows, War Priest, as well as "whenever" in the extra attack feature. If they intended GWM to work only on adjacent, in-range targets, I would expect it to be worded like Horde Breaker.You might be correct. Because when you look at the entirety of the entry that contains the sentence I just quoted above, it appears to directly contradict itself with that sentence, based on the following sentence:
"Does the “when” in the Eldritch Knight’s War Magic feature mean the bonus attack comes after you cast the cantrip, or can it come before?
The intent is that the bonus attack can come before or after the cantrip. You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action specifies when it must take place (PH, 189)."

Since the "when" in War Magic is, IMO by any reasonable reading of plain English, specifying when it must take place. Just as GWM is.

OTOH compare to Flurry of Blows, which explicitly says it be used immediately after taking the Attack action. To me that's just a rewording of saying 'when you take the Attack action', but for others I can see they'd find it to be a different statement.

Okay, I revise my position based on rereading the War Magic ruling. I personally disagree with it and think he's contradicting himself, but hey the RAI is clear. RAI is almost certainly that you can move to a new target, and take your GWM bonus action, provided you've got movement. Or even save it until after your 2nd Extra Attack if your first triggers it.

Edit: To be clear, I was aware of the War Magic ruling, but forgot it was a 'when' sentence. I've always played and run War Magic the SA ruling way. But IMO the only reasonable way to read the actual wording of War Magic is that you must take the bonus action attack after the cantrip. However, the wording of Flurry of Blows shows that 'when' combined with a trigger could be read as "at any time after" the trigger. That'd apply to both War Magic and GWM.

[GlenSmash!]

Hi, I'm late to the conversation too.

I like barbarians of just about every flavor. What I find interesting about the Bear Totem is that it's level 3 ability, really doesn't get the chance to shine until later levels. As has been pointed out most of the damage out there is B/P/S, especially at low levels. At higher levels, the chance of of encountering a Fireball, Dragonbreath, or Necrotic Damage becomes a lot higher, so Bear Totem rage starts to make a difference more often.

It is situational, but so is granting Advantage to Melee allies that are right next to you, bonus action dashing with opponents getting disadvantage on opportunity attacks, or getting an extra Attack for 1-2 fights per adventuring day.

[Pex]

I dunno, man, them honey badgers took over the net a few years back. Plus I could totally see that being a gnome or halfling totem animal.

It was Cedric Diggory a Hufflepuff Badger who was the real Hogwarts Champion, not Gryffindor Lion, Not Ravenlcaw Eagle, Not Slytherin Snake.

[Nifft]

It was Cedric Diggory a Hufflepuff Badger who was the real Hogwarts Champion, not Gryffindor Lion, Not Ravenlcaw Eagle, Not Slytherin Snake.

How the devil did Raveclaw not get represented by a raven?

The world may never know.

=== === ===

Anyway, Bear Totem (at level 3).

Like I said above, it's reliable and easy.

This is compatible with lazy, but it's not the same as lazy.

[Galactkaktus]

Anyway, Bear Totem (at level 3).

Like I said above, it's reliable and easy.

This is compatible with lazy, but it's not the same as lazy.

How can it be considered to be reliable when it does nothing in so many fights?

[Potato_Priest]

How can it be considered to be reliable when it does nothing in so many fights?

It's not that the lvl 3 bear totem feature is reliable, per se- it's that the tanking ability of the non-bear totem barbarian is not.

You will perform impressively one fight, taking mroe damage than anyone else could and being able to live to tell about it.

The next battle, you'll be up against fire damage enemies. You'll go down just as fast as the fighter, if not faster due to your lower armor class and lack of second wind.

The regular barbarian fluctuates wildly in tanking ability, but the bear totem barbarian does not.

[Galactkaktus]

It's not that the lvl 3 bear totem feature is reliable, per se- it's that the tanking ability of the non-bear totem barbarian is not.

You will perform impressively one fight, taking mroe damage than anyone else could and being able to live to tell about it.

The next battle, you'll be up against fire damage enemies. You'll go down just as fast as the fighter, if not faster due to your lower armor class and lack of second wind.

The regular barbarian fluctuates wildly in tanking ability, but the bear totem barbarian does not.

I would say that the bear totem barbarian has it's own fluctations when you consider fear and charm. But sure in encounters where you take mostly elemental damage after you enter rage the bear totem ability gives you more tanking abillity.

[Saeviomage]

Well you can already do that as long as you have a free hand. Shove and grapple are variations of attacks that always trigger the attack action. But you can heal/dodge/dash/stuff and still make an attack.

At first I thought you were right, but actually I think he means to spend a round with
shove, grapple, then attack.

This leaves your foe prone and grappled (and therefore unable to stand until they break the grapple), plus you get an attack.

None of the other bonus action attacks let you do this: they all require you to attack with a specific weapon in order to get the bonus action (and PAM requires you to ONLY attack with the polearm to get it's bonus).

It IS worth noting however that the frenzy bonus action must be a MELEE WEAPON attack. So unfortunately you can't use it to grapple someone, then dash away with them.

[MeeposFire]

I do not advocate it but bear totem does give you physical resistances regardless of what armor you are wearing unlike normal rage as I recall so a bear barbarian gets resistance to weapons even in heavy armor. Very niche.

[Lombra]

I do not advocate it but bear totem does give you physical resistances regardless of what armor you are wearing unlike normal rage as I recall so a bear barbarian gets resistance to weapons even in heavy armor. Very niche.

While this is RAW, isn't it a bit unreasonable to allow? Has it been clarified in a Sage Advice?

[excommunicated]

Don't forget that with the addition of the Mobile feat, a totem barbarian can use the 14th level feature of the Tiger (SCAG) to get a full melee attack with the bonus action every round with no exhaustion penalty. Just attack, move 20 feet away then move 20 feet in straight line towards a large or smaller target then take your second attack and bonus attack. While it is very cheesy:smallbiggrin: unless you happen to have a second target you can run toward for the second attack, it is perfectly legal.

[Xetheral]

While this is RAW, isn't it a bit unreasonable to allow? Has it been clarified in a Sage Advice?

Level 3 Eagle Totem only works while raging AND explicitly specifies that it doesn't work while wearing Heavy Armor. Level 3 Bear Totem also only works while raging but does NOT contain an explicit armor restriction. So it seems perfectly reasonable to infer that, because they have different wording, Eagle totem and Bear totem must behave differently with respect to wearing heavy armor.

However, Crawford has clarified that, despite the different wording, all features that depend on Rage were not intended to work while wearing Heavy Armor. Here's a link (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/11/22/can-you-be-wearing-heavy-armor-and-still-benefit-from-the-barbarian-totem-benefits/). Note that the last tweet in the series is ambiguous as to whether Crawford is conceeding that level 3 Bear totem works with Heavy Armor by RAW.

[Specter]

My 5 cents: Bear is popular because usually people tend to play a class' strong points (tanking and sponging, in this case) to the fullest when choosing a subclass. That doesn't mean that the other totems are bad, they just expand the Barbarian's tricks and tactics, and that's something many people don't care too much. This may also explain why so many people overlook the Thief (new ways around old things) and go straight towards Swashbuckler and Assassin (DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE).