5e multi-rank: the Bard

[Waazraath]

This thread is about how the bard functions in the 5e multi-rank. You can find more information on how the system works here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533862-The-5e-multi-rank-which-class-can-do-what The (short version) idea of the multi-rank is to describe how much potential each subclass has in a number of roles.

As a reminder, the assessment scale is:

A score of 1: great, this (sub)class is simply one of the best for this task. It has several, strong class features that are designed for this specific kind of job.
A score of 2: good: the (sub)class offers additional tools for fulfilling a task. It’s not the best possible (sub)class for the job, but definitely better than a class that, of example, has no other tools than the relevant skill and / or feat.
A score of 3: ok-ish: the (sub)class offers little to none additional tools for fullfilling this task. It needs to spend a feat to be able to do this, or pick a background to give access to a skill, and invest in the relevant ability score.

General assessment

The bard is almost the opposite from the class discussed the last time, the barbarian. The barbarian is quite focussed in the role it can fulfil, which is mostly ‘tank’ and ‘melee damage dealer’. The bard offers much more customization options. That lie almost everywhere, except not in being the tank, or main damage dealer. But more on that later.

The base class has a few defining features, all of them saying: ‘pick in which you want to excel’. There is the extra skills, expertise to become a true master of some skills, jack of all trades to become pretty ok in all skills you aren’t proficient in. Then there are the spells: the bard has a pretty good spell list, having plenty of options (among others) healing, buffing, debuffing and information gathering. It lacks a few spells enhancing mobility (fly, misty step), but also has a few good ones (dimension door, teleport, polymorph). It’s a bit lacking in some departments, like defensive (self-buff) spells, damage (hardly anything above first and second level thunderwave and shatter) and summoning. BUT, and this is a big but, it has the class feature to pick spells from other spell list. So most weaknesses that a bard has, it can compensate with picking the right spells, choosing the right skills, and expertising in them. Finally, the last defining feature of the bard is ‘bardic inspiration’, a nice short duration buff for party members.

If we systematically go through the categories (roles), this leads to the following:

• Melee damage dealer: precious little here in the base class: not even martial weapons, no class features that bump this. Only at character level 7 some decent spells become available (improved invisibility, polymorph), but they are concentration. Picking decent melee spells with Magical secrets is an option, but even then it’s meh: there simply aren’t enough spell slots to make the bard a decent melee chap. It’s a bit different for the valor bard: at least it gets martial weapons and extra attack. Combined with feats, and good spells with magical secrets at 10, that might just be enough to be ‘good’ in melee fighting (but barely)

• Ranged damage dealer: The bard has a decent area of effect spells at the lower levels: shatter. At the higher levels, lore bard can pick good spells at 6 like fireball. Valor bard can be an archer. Staying out of melee, improved invisibility is a strong buff at 7, and at level 10 swift quiver or elemental weapon can make the valor bard quite good in this role.

• Multiple target damage: This overlaps with the ranged damage role, since bards use (partly) area of effect spells for that. Both Thunderwave and Shatter are decent low level option for all bards. Lore bard can, as said above, pick the best spells available for this role at level 6, all bards can use their Magical Secrets at later levels for the best picks. This makes them good, but not great; they don’t get to add their ability modifier to damage, nor can they exempt allies from blast spells, like the best blasting subclasses can.

• Tank: the base class makes terrible tanks. Low AC (only light armor), a primary stat that is neither dex nor con, only a d8 for hit points, and very little spells that can help in this role. Especially at low to mid-levels. At low levels, there is nothing: no shield, no mage armor, no armor of agatys, no mirror image, no blur, etc.. At mid-levels, polymoph and greater invisibility are good spells, but both require concentration, so better used to buff others, then to self-buff and wade into melee. Valor bards get a bit more tankish due to shield and medium armor proficiency, lore bards can use on of their low level magical secrets (level 6) to gain defensive spells, but neither is enough to become good tanks.

• Debuffer: The bard has a good spell list for this. All most all levels have great options for this, from sleep and bane, up to compulsion and confusion, to power word stun and feeblemind. In addition to this, the Lore Bard can use ‘cutting words’ as an additional debuff as a reaction. This makes the Lore Bard a potentially great debuffer.

• Buffer: All bards have bardic inspiration, and a good spell list. They miss some very nice (low level) buff spells, like bless, haste and aid, but can use magical secret to get those if they really want it. On the other hand: they probably aren’t as great as a specialized sorcerer, twinning haste and polymorph.

• Healer: Bonus action healing from level 1 onward. Song of rest, for extra healing when resting. Magical secrets for the strong higher level cleric healing spells. Good to great.

• Influencer: The bard is a charisma based class, with expertise. Lore Bard’s Peerless Skill can further enhance the skill check. Spells like charm, suggestion, and mass suggestion are on the bard list. Both through spells and through talking, the bard can successfully influence others: great!

• Minion master: Some spells are on the bard list, like animate objects, and dominate. Beside these, you can pick relevant spells to gain a steed, familiar, summon creatures or animate the dead. The bard spells are quite late level though: level 5 spells, so for level 9 characters. This makes that the lore bard, with magical secrets at 6, can be ‘good’ in this role (most summon and animate spells are level 3 or higher anyway); for the valor bard, magical secrets at 10 is too late to be considered good in this field.

• Information gatherer: The bard list has good divination spells, like Legend Lore, Scrying and Locate Object. Magical secrets can get other good spells like Divinition. As far as information can be gathered through sweet talking somebody, bard has the relevant primary stat, and expertise. In any case expertise can help with all skill checks, including arcana, nature, etc. Great.

• Scout: The bard has expertise for stealth and perception. Is unhampered by heavy armor. Can become invisible, use enhance ability for advantage on stealth, can become an inconspicuous animal with polymorph. It misses pass without trace though, and is neither a dex or wis focused class. Good, at the very least.

• Trapfinder: Again, expertise helps here, with finding traps. The class has detect magic, for magical traps, but lacks ‘find traps’ (though to be honest, it’s quite a weak spell to begin with). As for traps disarming, most bards won’t max out dex, nor can they get expertise in thieves tools. Lore bard can use peerless skill. All in all, they have a few tools for this trade, so ‘good’.

• Mobility: Bards have some ways to increase their mobility. All of these come from spells, well, except the opportunity to improve ‘athletics’, but since str is often a dump stat, this isn’t a biggie. Relevant spells are among others longstrider for extra speed, dimension door and teleport for teleportation, polymorph for different types of movement. The spell list misses out on some other great movement spells like fly and misty step. But at the least, it’s (very) good.

Lore bard

Combat
• Melee damage dealer: 3
• Ranged damage dealer: 2
• Multiple target damage: 2
• Tank: 3
• Debuffer: 1
• Buffer: 1/2
• Healer: 1/2

Social interaction
• Influencer: 1
• Minion master: 2
• Information gatherer: 1

Exploration
• Scout: 2
• Trapfinder: 2
• Mobility: 2

Valor bard

Combat
• Melee damage dealer: 2
• Ranged damage dealer: 2
• Multiple target damage: 2
• Tank: 3
• Debuffer: 2
• Buffer: 1/2
• Healer: 1/2

Social interaction
• Influencer: 1
• Minion master: 3
• Information gatherer: 1

Exploration
• Scout: 2
• Trapfinder: 2
• Mobility: 2

[NOTE: this ‘rank the bard’ is a test for a multi-rank system for 5e. If you are so kind to help thinking on this, use this thread for feedback on how the barbarian performs on the different roles. Use the thread on the system for feedback on the ranking system, the scaling, the different roles, et cetera.]

[Citan]

This thread is about how the bard functions in the 5e multi-rank. You can find more information on how the system works here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533862-The-5e-multi-rank-which-class-can-do-what The (short version) idea of the multi-rank is to describe how much potential each subclass has in a number of roles.

As a reminder, the assessment scale is:

A score of 1: great, this (sub)class is simply one of the best for this task. It has several, strong class features that are designed for this specific kind of job.
A score of 2: good: the (sub)class offers additional tools for fulfilling a task. It’s not the best possible (sub)class for the job, but definitely better than a class that, of example, has no other tools than the relevant skill and / or feat.
A score of 3: ok-ish: the (sub)class offers little to none additional tools for fullfilling this task. It needs to spend a feat to be able to do this, or pick a background to give access to a skill, and invest in the relevant ability score.

General assessment

The bard is almost the opposite from the class discussed the last time, the barbarian. The barbarian is quite focussed in the role it can fulfil, which is mostly ‘tank’ and ‘melee damage dealer’. The bard offers much more customization options. That lie almost everywhere, except not in being the tank, or main damage dealer. But more on that later.

The base class has a few defining features, all of them saying: ‘pick in which you want to excel’. There is the extra skills, expertise to become a true master of some skills, jack of all trades to become pretty ok in all skills you aren’t proficient in. Then there are the spells: the bard has a pretty good spell list, having plenty of options (among others) healing, buffing, debuffing and information gathering. It lacks a few spells enhancing mobility (fly, misty step), but also has a few good ones (dimension door, teleport, polymorph). It’s a bit lacking in some departments, like defensive (self-buff) spells, damage (hardly anything above first and second level thunderwave and shatter) and summoning. BUT, and this is a big but, it has the class feature to pick spells from other spell list. So most weaknesses that a bard has, it can compensate with picking the right spells, choosing the right skills, and expertising in them. Finally, the last defining feature of the bard is ‘bardic inspiration’, a nice short duration buff for party members.

If we systematically go through the categories (roles), this leads to the following:

• Melee damage dealer: precious little here in the base class: not even martial weapons, no class features that bump this. Only at character level 7 some decent spells become available (improved invisibility, polymorph), but they are concentration. Picking decent melee spells with Magical secrets is an option, but even then it’s meh: there simply aren’t enough spell slots to make the bard a decent melee chap. It’s a bit different for the valor bard: at least it gets martial weapons and extra attack. Combined with feats, and good spells with magical secrets at 10, that might just be enough to be ‘good’ in melee fighting (but barely)

• Ranged damage dealer: The bard has a decent area of effect spells at the lower levels: shatter. At the higher levels, lore bard can pick good spells at 6 like fireball. Valor bard can be an archer. Staying out of melee, improved invisibility is a strong buff at 7, and at level 10 swift quiver or elemental weapon can make the valor bard quite good in this role.

• Multiple target damage: This overlaps with the ranged damage role, since bards use (partly) area of effect spells for that. Both Thunderwave and Shatter are decent low level option for all bards. Lore bard can, as said above, pick the best spells available for this role at level 6, all bards can use their Magical Secrets at later levels for the best picks. This makes them good, but not great; they don’t get to add their ability modifier to damage, nor can they exempt allies from blast spells, like the best blasting subclasses can.

• Tank: the base class makes terrible tanks. Low AC (only light armor), a primary stat that is neither dex nor con, only a d8 for hit points, and very little spells that can help in this role. Especially at low to mid-levels. At low levels, there is nothing: no shield, no mage armor, no armor of agatys, no mirror image, no blur, etc.. At mid-levels, polymoph and greater invisibility are good spells, but both require concentration, so better used to buff others, then to self-buff and wade into melee. Valor bards get a bit more tankish due to shield and medium armor proficiency, lore bards can use on of their low level magical secrets (level 6) to gain defensive spells, but neither is enough to become good tanks.

• Debuffer: The bard has a good spell list for this. All most all levels have great options for this, from sleep and bane, up to compulsion and confusion, to power word stun and feeblemind. In addition to this, the Lore Bard can use ‘cutting words’ as an additional debuff as a reaction. This makes the Lore Bard a potentially great debuffer.

• Buffer: All bards have bardic inspiration, and a good spell list. They miss some very nice (low level) buff spells, like bless, haste and aid, but can use magical secret to get those if they really want it. On the other hand: they probably aren’t as great as a specialized sorcerer, twinning haste and polymorph.

• Healer: Bonus action healing from level 1 onward. Song of rest, for extra healing when resting. Magical secrets for the strong higher level cleric healing spells. Good to great.

• Influencer: The bard is a charisma based class, with expertise. Lore Bard’s Peerless Skill can further enhance the skill check. Spells like charm, suggestion, and mass suggestion are on the bard list. Both through spells and through talking, the bard can successfully influence others: great!

• Minion master: Some spells are on the bard list, like animate objects, and dominate. Beside these, you can pick relevant spells to gain a steed, familiar, summon creatures or animate the dead. The bard spells are quite late level though: level 5 spells, so for level 9 characters. This makes that the lore bard, with magical secrets at 6, can be ‘good’ in this role (most summon and animate spells are level 3 or higher anyway); for the valor bard, magical secrets at 10 is too late to be considered good in this field.

• Information gatherer: The bard list has good divination spells, like Legend Lore, Scrying and Locate Object. Magical secrets can get other good spells like Divinition. As far as information can be gathered through sweet talking somebody, bard has the relevant primary stat, and expertise. In any case expertise can help with all skill checks, including arcana, nature, etc. Great.

• Scout: The bard has expertise for stealth and perception. Is unhampered by heavy armor. Can become invisible, use enhance ability for advantage on stealth, can become an inconspicuous animal with polymorph. It misses pass without trace though, and is neither a dex or wis focused class. Good, at the very least.

• Trapfinder: Again, expertise helps here, with finding traps. The class has detect magic, for magical traps, but lacks ‘find traps’ (though to be honest, it’s quite a weak spell to begin with). As for traps disarming, most bards won’t max out dex, nor can they get expertise in thieves tools. Lore bard can use peerless skill. All in all, they have a few tools for this trade, so ‘good’.

• Mobility: Bards have some ways to increase their mobility. All of these come from spells, well, except the opportunity to improve ‘athletics’, but since str is often a dump stat, this isn’t a biggie. Relevant spells are among others longstrider for extra speed, dimension door and teleport for teleportation, polymorph for different types of movement. The spell list misses out on some other great movement spells like fly and misty step. But at the least, it’s (very) good.

Lore bard

Combat
• Melee damage dealer: 3
• Ranged damage dealer: 2
• Multiple target damage: 2
• Tank: 3
• Debuffer: 1
• Buffer: 1/2
• Healer: 1/2

Social interaction
• Influencer: 1
• Minion master: 2
• Information gatherer: 1

Exploration
• Scout: 2
• Trapfinder: 2
• Mobility: 2

Valor bard

Combat
• Melee damage dealer: 2
• Ranged damage dealer: 2
• Multiple target damage: 2
• Tank: 3
• Debuffer: 2
• Buffer: 1/2
• Healer: 1/2

Social interaction
• Influencer: 1
• Minion master: 3
• Information gatherer: 1

Exploration
• Scout: 2
• Trapfinder: 2
• Mobility: 2

[NOTE: this ‘rank the bard’ is a test for a multi-rank system for 5e. If you are so kind to help thinking on this, use this thread for feedback on how the barbarian performs on the different roles. Use the thread on the system for feedback on the ranking system, the scaling, the different roles, et cetera.]
Hi!
Interesting ranking system, broad enough to avoid specious discussions, but detailed enough to give some decent insight into class capabilities. ;)

One note so far about bard: melee damage.
Lore Bard can actually be a very potent melee damage dealer (although it does not shore up the related risks of keeping into melee) by combining Absorb Elements, Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade and Elemental Bane (which is concentration).

You won't outpace the best martials, sure, but just the weapon cantrip is competitive damage with many other classes, and putting an Elemental Bane on top of that can add some more.
Big problem obviously is that you cannot use your concentration on defensive spells so, if you didn't take any defensive feat (notably Moderately Armored or at least Mobile) you would probably be killed soon enough.

[Waazraath]

Hi!
Interesting ranking system, broad enough to avoid specious discussions, but detailed enough to give some decent insight into class capabilities. ;)

One note so far about bard: melee damage.
Lore Bard can actually be a very potent melee damage dealer (although it does not shore up the related risks of keeping into melee) by combining Absorb Elements, Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade and Elemental Bane (which is concentration).

You won't outpace the best martials, sure, but just the weapon cantrip is competitive damage with many other classes, and putting an Elemental Bane on top of that can add some more.
Big problem obviously is that you cannot use your concentration on defensive spells so, if you didn't take any defensive feat (notably Moderately Armored or at least Mobile) you would probably be killed soon enough.

Thanks. I started to wonder, since over 100 people viewed the thread without responding. Maybe I should have added a TL;DR :smallsmile:

As for the melee capacity of the lore bard:

Indeed, having only 1 attack can (up to a point) can be compensated for with a SCAG-cantrip, and after that with the extra spells at 6 and 10. Let's compare this with other classes. Most martial classes like fighter, paladin and barbarian can use heavy weapons, for 1d12 or 2d6, instead of the bard's 1d8 rapier. They can combine it with great weapon master. Or they wield a polearm (and combine it with polearm master). They get a fighting style (except the barbarian). Get stuff like action surge, rage, reckless attack, smite, channel divinity, and spells that buff damage. At level 5, they get extra attack, and after that, even more ways to increase their melee damage (more attacks, bigger smites, extra critical damage, etc.). Even with spending 'spells known' and slots to melee damage, and a feat, lore bard will never get to that level. Then again, these classes are probably 'great' with melee damage.

When we look at other classes, like rogue, ranger and monk, they also get melee damage boost earlier than the lore bard. Rogue gets sneak attack, ranger a fightng style and hunter's mark, the monk the extra attack from martial arts, flurry of blows and later extra attack.

Atm, I think the combination of a rapier as best weapon, the lack of any damage increases trough class abilities except spells, and the fact that many good combat buffs are 'concentration' (meaning the bard will need at least one feat to reliably make a con save), make me doubt if they can be 'good'.

[Citan]

Thanks. I started to wonder, since over 100 people viewed the thread without responding. Maybe I should have added a TL;DR :smallsmile:

As for the melee capacity of the lore bard:

Indeed, having only 1 attack can (up to a point) can be compensated for with a SCAG-cantrip, and after that with the extra spells at 6 and 10. Let's compare this with other classes. Most martial classes like fighter, paladin and barbarian can use heavy weapons, for 1d12 or 2d6, instead of the bard's 1d8 rapier. They can combine it with great weapon master. Or they wield a polearm (and combine it with polearm master). They get a fighting style (except the barbarian). Get stuff like action surge, rage, reckless attack, smite, channel divinity, and spells that buff damage. At level 5, they get extra attack, and after that, even more ways to increase their melee damage (more attacks, bigger smites, extra critical damage, etc.). Even with spending 'spells known' and slots to melee damage, and a feat, lore bard will never get to that level. Then again, these classes are probably 'great' with melee damage.

When we look at other classes, like rogue, ranger and monk, they also get melee damage boost earlier than the lore bard. Rogue gets sneak attack, ranger a fightng style and hunter's mark, the monk the extra attack from martial arts, flurry of blows and later extra attack.

Atm, I think the combination of a rapier as best weapon, the lack of any damage increases trough class abilities except spells, and the fact that many good combat buffs are 'concentration' (meaning the bard will need at least one feat to reliably make a con save), make me doubt if they can be 'good'.
Well, I'm sorry but it seems you are not familiar enough with weapon cantrips maths to realize why you are mistaken.

Let's take Booming Blade (considering, for fairness, the creature moves) and compare with Extra Attack and potential bonus action weapon attack. Take a rapier for equality.
Consider Bard wants to bump melee and casting more or less equally so will bump attack stat to 18 early,20 later.

Lvl 1: weapon attack (1d8+3) vs Booming Blade (1d8+3+1d8).
Average 7,5 vs 7,5 (11 if moves).
Maximum 11 vs 11 (19 if moves).
BB wins.

Lvl 5: weapon attack (1d8+4)*2 vs Booming Blade (1d8+4+1d8+2d8).
Average 17 vs 17,5 (26,5 if move).
Maximum 24 vs 20 (32 if moves).
BB wins on average, flat.

Lvl 11: weapon attack (1d8+5)*3 (Fighter, or grab Polearm Master for bonus action) vs Booming Blade (1d8+4+2d8+3d8).
Average 28,5 vs 22 (33,5 if moves).
Maximum 39 vs 28 (52 if moves).
Here multi-attack clearly wins if enemy creature would choose not to move, otherwise Booming Blade wins on average.

Let's stop here a moment.
This level of damage is something most martials will stop at without any investment.
- Barbarians have only simple Extra Attack (2 attacks), but have Rage damage to stack on it. They could use two-weapon fighting though even if they don't add modifier to it (making them comparable or even slightly better to TWF Fighter) but they have a few ways to use bonus action (and using Reckless attack they would probably like having a shield) so there is a small opportunity cost.
- Fighter can easily grab another attack thanks to TWF fighting style, as well as maximizing stat and still getting a feat, making them still a head over anyone else.
- Paladins get Improved Divine Smite which more or less brings their simple Extra Attack on par with an Improved Extra Attack.
- Ranger gets potential Horde Breaker and Hunter's Mark. If we would consider Hunter's Mark as a "permanent" benefit (aka Ranger keeps it always active) then Ranger would come on par with Bard (enemy chooses to move) or easily trumps it (enemy chooses not to).
- Rogue gets only one attack (unless TWF), but gets Sneak Attack which at level 11 amounts to 6d6 (average 21, max 36) on top of their attack.
- Only Monk was better throughout thanks to getting bonus action attack right from the start, and ability to spend resources to get 2 attacks on bonus action.

Note that if I had made the comparison with d12 weapons, if would have made some difference in number, allowing weapon attacks to come on par or slightly better than weapon cantrips on average when enemy chooses not to move. But still being at most equal in average and plain inferior in maximum if enemy chose to move.

SO: at this level, without other martials take feats or other investments to get bonus action weapon attack, just using Booming Attack makes Lore Bard competitive sustained damage-wise with them (Monk and optimized Fighter excepted), features included.

Let's push up to level 17.

Weapon attacks: (1d8+5)*4 vs BB (1d8+5+3d8+4d8).
Average 38 vs 23 (41 if moves).
Maximum 52 vs 37 (69 if moves).
Weapon attacks win if enemy chooses not to move. Otherwise it's Booming Blade.

See how a plain weapon cantrip makes any class with some casting competitive with martials up to the point where they need feats like Sharpshooter or GWM to really distance themselves? Of course if an enemy does not move, BB is underwhelming, but forcing an enemy not to move is also a very useful benefit.
Plus we are talking of a fullcaster here that can grab any spell he wants: compared to martials, a Bard could easily grab Absorb Elements (half damage and next weapon attack buff), Elemental Bane (+2d8, ignores resistance), Ensnaring Strike or any smite spell and uses them on a regular basis, bringing both further damage and utility to it.

So, sure, a Lore Bard (or even Valor for that matter) cannot compare with a properly damage-geared optimized martial that would grab Sharpshooter / GWM, as far as sustained damage goes (sorry, I don't take smite and the like into account, because that also consumes resources). But he can reach the level of any other martial (aka martial that would optimize any other aspect than damage), in addition to still being a fullcaster. And without feats, it becomes as good as most martials even in sustained damage.

TL;DR: Lore Bard can certainly be good at sustained damage (while any martial would be "a tad better", and optimized martials would be "much greater").

The reason why nobody sees Lore Bard into melee is not that they cannot have competitive enough damage, it's that they don't have any permanent defense to go with (so they would need to use spells like Greater Invisibility, but that's a great opportunity cost considering how some Bard spells would usually fare better for the party overall, especially mass debuff spells). ;)
So it's usually not the best way to spend their resources. But a Lore Bard that wants to be a threatening melee force could certainly build himself into it and achieve that goal.

[rollingForInit]

• Tank: the base class makes terrible tanks. Low AC (only light armor), a primary stat that is neither dex nor con, only a d8 for hit points, and very little spells that can help in this role. Especially at low to mid-levels. At low levels, there is nothing: no shield, no mage armor, no armor of agatys, no mirror image, no blur, etc.. At mid-levels, polymoph and greater invisibility are good spells, but both require concentration, so better used to buff others, then to self-buff and wade into melee. Valor bards get a bit more tankish due to shield and medium armor proficiency, lore bards can use on of their low level magical secrets (level 6) to gain defensive spells, but neither is enough to become good tanks.


I disagree that bards cannot become good tanks. They can. It requires a lot of very specific choices, but it definitely works. A Lore Bard can get medium armor+shield with a feat investment, and can use their level 6 Magical Secrets for spells like Booming Blade and Shield. Shield makes it very possible to tank, if you also have a decent Con score. A cantrip like Booming Blade gives you some stickiness and decent scaling melee damage. If multiclassing is allowed it gets even easier, since you can MC into Fighter/Sorcerer for any combination of armor and spells.

It's an invest and they won't be "great" tanks, but they can definitely be good tanks.

[Arnie82]

I have to agree with Citan here. I'm currently playing a Lore Bard that spends most of the time in melee with weapon cantrips. This wasn't my initial plan, but it works. Magic secrets with Spiritual Guardian and/or spiritual weapon are very powerful. If you go the route I did as a variant human you can pick up your cantrips there and not use a magical secret. Cutting word can work as a substitute for the shield spell.


Now on to the next part. Should valor bards be only rated as a 2 for ranged damage? I feel a that really good ranged damage dealers. Getting access to swift quiver at level 10 is very powerful. Granted, not getting archer style hurts, but it's not the end of the world.

[Waazraath]

@citan and @Arnie82: I don't have first hand experience with melee lore bard, so I tend to be persuaded. But for discussions sake, a few points. I won't quote everything because I think it'll be easier to read.

Citan: I understand your BB-math very well, but:
- I'm not really convinced by the 'max damage'. I see where the numbers come from, but I'm playing a BB build myself in my current campaign, and so far I've never seen it trigger without a very good reason. Maybe combined with mobile, you can force it to trigger, but that would be another feat. Same with later levels: imo, in the math you can't presume any damage from BB except the extra 1d8 at 5, extra 2d8 at 11, etc.
- you compare the bard with other classes that also use a rapier. In the light of this system, I don't think this is correct. We look at "how good can a class be in the melee role". For a bard, that means using a rapier, or spending a feat on a better weapon. A fighter, barbarian or paladin optimizing for the melee role, will never take a rapier; it'll be a great weapon, probably accompanied by a feat at level 4.
- And as for the lore bard, to have a SCAG-cantrip at level 1-5 without spending the lvl 4 ASI, it needs to get it through race. That means a specific race is included in the build; for comparison, shouldn't we use other classes as wel together with a logical racial bonus (half orc champion, variant human barbarian with gwm, etc.)?

Arnie82: Do I interpret your post right if I read that a part of your damage comes from spirit guardians / spiritual weapon? If so: is this really "melee damage"? In the system I use, I'd classify those under "area damage" and "ranged damage", respectively.

In general: I think I agree with this that Citan says:

TL;DR: Lore Bard can certainly be good at sustained damage (while any martial would be "a tad better", and optimized martials would be "much greater").

Using a system that has "ok" as baseline, and assumes that classes try to fulfill a certain role: will a lore bard be better than classes like cleric, rogue and ranger?

And: if the lore bard fills in the "good" category, only due to a few extra spell choices; would there be any (sub)class to be "just" ok, or would everybody be at least "good" in dealing damage?


Then we get to the ranged damaged. Arnie82 writes
Should valor bards be only rated as a 2 for ranged damage? I feel a that really good ranged damage dealers. Getting access to swift quiver at level 10 is very powerful. Granted, not getting archer style hurts, but it's not the end of the world. .

"Only 2", I wonder? Again, this is the scale:

A score of 1: great, this (sub)class is simply one of the best for this task. It has several, strong class features that are designed for this specific kind of job.
A score of 2: good: the (sub)class offers additional tools for fulfilling a task. It’s not the best possible (sub)class for the job, but definitely better than a class that, of example, has no other tools than the relevant skill and / or feat.
A score of 3: ok-ish: the (sub)class offers little to none additional tools for fullfilling this task. It needs to spend a feat to be able to do this, or pick a background to give access to a skill, and invest in the relevant ability score.

A 2 is good. A 1 is being the best. In ranged damage, I'm thinking about specialized sorcerers (twin disintegrating, twin firebolting and quickening another spell, adding cha to damage, etc.), and bow wielding fighters with SS, archery style, and maybe also a crossbow and crossbow expert. A valor bard can be a good archer, but the best?

As for the tank:


I disagree that bards cannot become good tanks. They can. It requires a lot of very specific choices, but it definitely works. A Lore Bard can get medium armor+shield with a feat investment, and can use their level 6 Magical Secrets for spells like Booming Blade and Shield. Shield makes it very possible to tank, if you also have a decent Con score. A cantrip like Booming Blade gives you some stickiness and decent scaling melee damage. If multiclassing is allowed it gets even easier, since you can MC into Fighter/Sorcerer for any combination of armor and spells.

It's an invest and they won't be "great" tanks, but they can definitely be good tanks.

Some points:
1) the system doesn't include multiclass, its impossible to make a ranking with it. See also http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ss-can-do-what

2) with shield and the shield spell, they would also need war caster for the components.

3) I don't see that much tanking. The lore bard described here needs a feat for armor and shield, needs another feat for warcaster, needs to use both free level 6 spell choices, needs decent dex (14) and high con, for a cha based class. And still, it will have lower AC / HP than almost every other class who sets itself to tanking; defenitely all the martial classes, but also classes like rogue, druid, cleric and warlock have much more going for them.

4) Up to level 6, there is nothing in the class that improves tanking (everybody can take a feat); this seems like the definition of score 3: "the (sub)class offers little to none additional tools for fullfilling this task. It needs to spend a feat to be able to do this, or pick a background to give access to a skill, and invest in the relevant ability score."

[SharkForce]

hmmm... not sure that a class which has nothing before level 6 but then gets a bunch of tools that can be used should be unable to ever count as being "good". i mean, at level 3, sure the lore bard isn't good at it. at level 6, lore bard can be pretty good if built for it. that sounds like something that bounces between 2 and 3, depending on level.

anyways, i am curious... what exactly would you classify as rank 1 in minionmancy? is it pretty much exclusively druid and lore bard that takes conjure animals, and nobody else? you mention level 9 as being too late of a start, but imo minionmancy doesn't really even begin until level 5 or so (before that, you're looking at familiars and animal companions pretty much).

edit: oh, and while anyone can take a feat, that isn't the same thing as being able to make optimal use of a feat because of your other class features.

[Waazraath]

hmmm... not sure that a class which has nothing before level 6 but then gets a bunch of tools that can be used should be unable to ever count as being "good". i mean, at level 3, sure the lore bard isn't good at it. at level 6, lore bard can be pretty good if built for it. that sounds like something that bounces between 2 and 3, depending on level.

As for the general statement, I agree. The class that gets the bunch of tools for a job at level 6 earliest, should still be able to clasify as 'good'. The later he getst those tools, the harder it gets though.

As for this specific case, the bard, I'm not sure. The suggestion provided (tanking with medium armor mastery feat, a shield, and the shield spell & booming blade cantrip) doesn't work, at least without another feat. And though shield is great, you don't have that many slots to spend on it. So the question is, I think: can we make a good tank out of a level 6+ lore bard, and how?

The outcome "somewhere between ok and good" seems very possible.



anyways, i am curious... what exactly would you classify as rank 1 in minionmancy? is it pretty much exclusively druid and lore bard that takes conjure animals, and nobody else? you mention level 9 as being too late of a start, but imo minionmancy doesn't really even begin until level 5 or so (before that, you're looking at familiars and animal companions pretty much).

Good question. And correct. So for this category, we should look at level 5+, because this set of abilities only comes online at that point. I think the necromancer would definitely be a 1. Maybe even all wizards, with necro being the best within its tier. Druids maybe?


edit: oh, and while anyone can take a feat, that isn't the same thing as being able to make optimal use of a feat because of your other class features.

Agreed. Did you have a specific case in mind?

[Arnie82]

So let me get this straight, a range area affect spells counts when talking about ranged damage, but melee area spells don't?

Spiritual weapon is a MELEE spell attack. It just so happens to move.

Last thing to note is why is it ok to use feats when talking about one class but not another? Where would a fighter using range rank with out feats? With no feats a Valor bard would be a little worse then a fighter from 1 to 9, but a 10 you could get swift quiver to really change it to being better then the fighter.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I demand you take the advantage given to other members of large parties by Faerie Fire into account and add it to the damage the Bard caused when calculating damage per round.

Nothing like an extra D8 of Bardic inspiration to give timely help to your Rogue friend who sucks at Intelligence saves.

[Waazraath]

So let me get this straight, a range area affect spells counts when talking about ranged damage, but melee area spells don't?

That would be my proposal. Shatter and fireball are ranged, and do damage, so I'd say they are ranged damage (and area damage). Melee area spells... ah. I see your point :) Yes, in that way, it could be argued that spirit guardians should be added to the "melee damage" category. They do damage and are melee range. That would seriously up the melee damage for bards, and clerics.

This does open a can of worms though. Damage from these kind of spells is seriously less reliable / consistent than normal melee or ranged damage, with weapons. There's fact that they are depending on slots, and for spells like Spirit Guardians, concentration. That should be taken in the equation as well. And what exactly is "ranged" if we accept spirit guardians 15ft as melee? And can't spells like fireball be used as well in melee range? Yes, but only sometimes. Actually, thinking about it, this is a case to remove spells (except cantrips) from the ranged / melee damage category completely.



Spiritual weapon is a MELEE spell attack. It just so happens to move. Effectively, it is ranged. To be honest, I really can't see why the designer put the word "melee" there. But it can be used both in melee and ranged. Nor has it concentration. So removing it out of the equation would be unfair for the cleric (and bard), also because it won't show up in the 'area damage' department. Mhhh, needs some more thought.




Last thing to note is why is it ok to use feats when talking about one class but not another?

What gives you that idea? Cause I don't think I've been saying that. Haven't intended it, in any case.


With no feats a Valor bard would be a little worse then a fighter from 1 to 9, but a 10 you could get swift quiver to really change it to being better then the fighter.
Really? I doubt it, because the fighter has:
- +2 to attacks
- earlier maxed out dexterity score (higher damage and to hit)
- the level 3 figher subclass feature, that can greatly enhance damage (especially battle master)
- action surge.
- 1 level earlier extra attack.
And:
- swift quiver is useless on the first round of combat (uses up the bonus action, so can't use it to fire arrows)
- is concentration so unreliable

But all of this is void, since the system explicitely assumes feats.


I demand You wut? :smalleek:


you take the advantage given to other members of large parties by Faerie Fire into account and add it to the damage the Bard caused when calculating damage per round.

Nothing like an extra D8 of Bardic inspiration to give timely help to your Rogue friend who sucks at Intelligence saves.

Eh, yes, true. That's "buffing". In which the bard scores very high already. It has been taken into account.

[polymphus]

I think you're missing one small thing that makes bard a great debuffer -- Vicious Mockery. You have a debuff cantrip that isn't saved on CON or DEX: two things monsters tend to have in spades.

Sure there are bigger debuffs, but it's a debuff with no casting cost that doesn't require spell slots and deals moderate scaling damage to boot.

[Arnie82]

I think you're missing one small thing that makes bard a great debuffer -- Vicious Mockery. You have a debuff cantrip that isn't saved on CON or DEX: two things monsters tend to have in spades.

Sure there are bigger debuffs, but it's a debuff with no casting cost that doesn't require spell slots and deals moderate scaling damage to boot.

Vicious Mockery is good, but once you get to around level 5 it starts to trail off. Monster start to get multiple attacks at that point.