Using multiple classes to stat villains?

[Protato]

Hello giantip forumgoers, I have a question. Do you think I could have recurring villains with the stats of several PC classes, rather than NPC stats? For example, I plan on having an honorable rival character that's a Dark Knight of some sort, and he's both a Fighter and a Warlock. However, he always has levels in both classes as the same, and unlike PC multiclassing, I could in theory have him be 20 Fighter and 20 Warlock at the same time. His Master (evil magic user that wants to get the ultimate world controlling artifact) might be three or four classes at once, and be level 20 in all of them (assuming the party is also level 20). How might I go about balancing this?

[JBPuffin]

Hello giantip forumgoers, I have a question. Do you think I could have recurring villains with the stats of several PC classes, rather than NPC stats? For example, I plan on having an honorable rival character that's a Dark Knight of some sort, and he's both a Fighter and a Warlock. However, he always has levels in both classes as the same, and unlike PC multiclassing, I could in theory have him be 20 Fighter and 20 Warlock at the same time. His Master (evil magic user that wants to get the ultimate world controlling artifact) might be three or four classes at once, and be level 20 in all of them (assuming the party is also level 20). How might I go about balancing this?

Welp...that's a great question.

3.5 had the 'gestalt' system, which allowed characters to use the better chassis bits of each class and gain all of their class features. If you want to apply something similar to an NPC, they'd have the HP and proficiencies of a fighter, two skills from any of the proficiencies either of the classes could take, proficiency with one of Wisdom or Constitution saves and...maybe both Strength and Charisma saves? At least one of those. They'd have the spellcasting of a warlock of their level and the abilities of a fighter of their level, and if you want to, you could apply archetypes.

The thing is, PC classes don't exactly line up with CR on a one-to-one ratio, so someone with two classes at once probably has a notably higher CR than normal. Action economy interferes noticeably, so it's hard to say how powerful a character is without actually looking at a statblock...

Honestly, I think you're better off making a normal melee-oriented NPC, giving them some spell slots and a list to cast off of, and add whatever features you think matter most to the character. Easier than working out an entirely new setup for 5e Gestalt...

[90sMusic]

I actually do this sort of thing often. It works out works out really well because some classes synergize together really well to create major threats and also have the additional hitpoints that a villain needs to stay alive when getting attacked by themselves by a party of heroes.

My favorite set of them is a recurring group of characters called the Four Horsemen. They don't try to analog directly to war, pestilence, and all of that, they have their own themes.

One of them is a great warrior who is a fighter with both champion and battle master archetypes as well as a barbarian with a selection of certain barbarian perks from the archetypes. 18-20 crit range on top of brutal critical is pretty nasty.

One is a rogue with a couple of perks from assassin and thief, ranger with hunter archetype, and monk with a couple of perks from shadow and fist.

One is a paladin/cleric using oathbreaker and death cleric archetypes.

And finally, their leader, easily the most dangerous of the group, is a horrible mixture of wizard/warlock/bard/and sorcerer.

I give them the full hit dice value for each level for the 2 highest hit dice value classes they're made from. All of them need both Constitution and Wisdom save proficiency because otherwise you run into save or die problems. Then give them one additional save proficiency based on their general theme. Strength for the warrior, dexterity for the assassin, charisma for the healer, and intelligence for the caster.

I give them ASI's from 2 classes, so they can improve their ability scores as well as pickup some feats that suit their MO.

Your mileage may vary, but I find they are threatening enough (with my mixtures at least) without legendary actions. By design, they are meant to be strong threats but can be defeated if fought alone, but when all 4 are together it is very much intended to be next to impossible.

Also, just as a fun little aside, I use the revised ranger's beastmaster archetype rules for all of them but instead of some random animal companion, it applies to their undead horses. This makes them beefier, highly resistant to magic, and even able to be a threat to some extent by themselves.

I love my horsemen. They get to do a lot of fun stuff. :)

They also can't really permanently die... They function like old school Death Knights having bound their souls into their weapons to act as a sort of phylactery so as long as the weapon exists, they'll eventually revive. Trouble is, the weapons being artifacts are virtually indestructible and require very specific (and difficult) methods to destroy them permanently. Players that kill one of these horsemen can take the weapon and sometimes are able to use them for a while, but the other 3 horsemen are aware of the locations of each other's weapons and living status and will come to aid one another so it's often best not to risk it. That is how some of my adventures begin actually... Finding these weapons in a tomb and unknowingly releasing the horsemen onto the world by taking them outside of it. #LongTermGoals

If you had just one of these guys though, how you'd balance him depends largely on how big of a threat you want him to be. Also you mentioned he was 20/20, so are they not going to encounter him until very late game? Or will he show up sometimes to taunt them earlier on and just not actually battle to the death until later?

I have created versions of my Horsemen from level 3 all the way to 20 and depending on the type of game i'm running at the time, they sometimes act as a recurring villain that the party runs across now and then and they level up with the party. The idea being they were these ancient badasses, but having been bound and restrained for so long has dampened their powers and they are having to reawaken them and go strong again over time. But regardless of level, they're still beatable by themselves, it's a really tough fight against two of them, and very unlikely to succeed against more than two at a time. But they have their own goals and directives essentially to carry out so they are rarely together. Against anyone who isn't a powerful group of heroes, they outclass them immensely so operating alone is usually preferable to get more work done at a faster rate.

[Protato]

If you had just one of these guys though, how you'd balance him depends largely on how big of a threat you want him to be. Also you mentioned he was 20/20, so are they not going to encounter him until very late game? Or will he show up sometimes to taunt them earlier on and just not actually battle to the death until later?

I was planning to have it be, say, this Dark Knight appears to deliver a message and attack the players once they're, say, levels 8-10, just whenever I feel like introducing the character (my group is level 5). DK would appear at around level 3-5, and if the players attack him, can expect a tough battle. I use milestones, so I might level them up afterwards if they win. The next time the players encounter the DK, he'd either be a higher level, or the same as when they first fought.

Now, his Master Heimdal on the other hand, is a sort of charismatic but bigoted cult leader. He'd appear a few times to taunt players, kill a minion for failure, etc., but would only fight the party very late into the game. I plan on having him perhaps acquire his artefact and that could be the reason he's got multiple classes by the time the last fight rolls around. As for his classes, what should they be? I'd think Bard, Wizard, and Sorcerer would make sense, given his charisma, his lust for knowledge, and his inborn ability.

[90sMusic]

Like I said, one of mine is an amalgam of the arcane casters. She uses charisma as her casting stat, even when using wizard features that typically use intelligence. I picked and chose between various archetype perks between them.

The combination is pretty brutal. Sorcerer metamagic allows for quicken spell to cast eldritch blast twice per turn, so at the highest levels that is 8 individual attacks per round until she runs out of sorcery points, which she can cannibalize from spellslots to get more. Twinned spell is also very strong to affect two people at once, whether it is friend or foe, especially when using 8th and 9th level spells. You think True Polymorph is bad? Try Twinned True Polymorph, which I believe is the sole reason why Sorcerers never gain access to that particular spell in the first place. Twinned Power Word Kill. Twinned Finger of Death. So on.

Warlock is useful to eat those spell slots for sorcery points to fuel other abilities since they recover on a short rest, and invocations are fantastic. Being able to see in magical darkness is a great strategic advantage. Unlimited use of Disguise Self and Alter Self is great for this highly deceptive and manipulative character that prefers working behind the scenes as opposed to direct confrontation.

You can technically Twin cast Simulacrum as well to have two of them. This is the only way I know of to have more than one at a time because casting the spell again destroys existing duplicates, but twin doesn't cast it again, it just has twice the effect from one casting.

I also give her Subtle Spell and Heighten spell as the other 2 metamagics (assuming high level). Heighten to give disadvantage on saves against what she casts is useful when she really wants to get a spell off. Subtle is great because you can cast spells right in front of people and they don't even know it because you aren't speaking or moving at all. Can be used to cast anything you want even if you're restrained, gagged, in a field of silence, whatever. So you can never be made helpless.

If I were you, i'd just go through there and pick and choose the perks and things you want. Throw some feats on there as well. The biggest weakness a character will have is the fact they're alone fighting a group, so they'll only be getting one turn per round and one reaction. That's why big baddies have legendary actions they can use to sort of level the playing field a bit. I don't include them on mine because it doesn't fit their design intention, but you could add it to yours if you think you want them to be a bit meaner. A powerful sorcerer though with Twinned Spell and Quicken Spell is already going to be a brutal enemy to face even without legendary actions because regardless of what she casts, she can always quicken an eldritch blast as well as her bonus action every round. So it's just things to consider.

[Sariel Vailo]

It helps make them dangerous and you can build a direct counter to the current party but dont fall in love with your bad guy

[Protato]

Like I said, one of mine is an amalgam of the arcane casters. She uses charisma as her casting stat, even when using wizard features that typically use intelligence. I picked and chose between various archetype perks between them.

The combination is pretty brutal. Sorcerer metamagic allows for quicken spell to cast eldritch blast twice per turn, so at the highest levels that is 8 individual attacks per round until she runs out of sorcery points, which she can cannibalize from spellslots to get more. Twinned spell is also very strong to affect two people at once, whether it is friend or foe, especially when using 8th and 9th level spells. You think True Polymorph is bad? Try Twinned True Polymorph, which I believe is the sole reason why Sorcerers never gain access to that particular spell in the first place. Twinned Power Word Kill. Twinned Finger of Death. So on.

Warlock is useful to eat those spell slots for sorcery points to fuel other abilities since they recover on a short rest, and invocations are fantastic. Being able to see in magical darkness is a great strategic advantage. Unlimited use of Disguise Self and Alter Self is great for this highly deceptive and manipulative character that prefers working behind the scenes as opposed to direct confrontation.

You can technically Twin cast Simulacrum as well to have two of them. This is the only way I know of to have more than one at a time because casting the spell again destroys existing duplicates, but twin doesn't cast it again, it just has twice the effect from one casting.

I also give her Subtle Spell and Heighten spell as the other 2 metamagics (assuming high level). Heighten to give disadvantage on saves against what she casts is useful when she really wants to get a spell off. Subtle is great because you can cast spells right in front of people and they don't even know it because you aren't speaking or moving at all. Can be used to cast anything you want even if you're restrained, gagged, in a field of silence, whatever. So you can never be made helpless.

If I were you, i'd just go through there and pick and choose the perks and things you want. Throw some feats on there as well. The biggest weakness a character will have is the fact they're alone fighting a group, so they'll only be getting one turn per round and one reaction. That's why big baddies have legendary actions they can use to sort of level the playing field a bit. I don't include them on mine because it doesn't fit their design intention, but you could add it to yours if you think you want them to be a bit meaner. A powerful sorcerer though with Twinned Spell and Quicken Spell is already going to be a brutal enemy to face even without legendary actions because regardless of what she casts, she can always quicken an eldritch blast as well as her bonus action every round. So it's just things to consider.

Oh geez, that sounds brutal. I'll be taking lessons for sure, haha!

[90sMusic]

Oh geez, that sounds brutal. I'll be taking lessons for sure, haha!

They are all very nasty. Fighter/Barbarian gestalt that is a halforc and using a great axe is going to be doing 6d12 + modifiers on every crit and the crit range is 18-20 so it happens 15% of the time instead of 5%, also Reckless attacks give you advantage on all attacks so that doubles your odds of getting a crit. With 4 attacks per round as part of the Attack Action, and a bonus attack from Frenzied rage, plus two action surges, and getting that extra 4 rage damage on each swing as well... The added 4 to max strength and con from barbarian capstone means strength mod plus rage mod adds 11 damage to each swing. The weapon he is using is a +3 as well so that makes it even worse.

The shadowmonk/rogue/ranger combo is the perfect assassin. I don't give him ranger spell slots, but he has picked up some of their perks. The shadow stepping and ability to turn invisible at will while in dim light or darkness is tough to deal with.

They all work out to be challenging enemies and fun boss battles when fought alone. But like I said, if they ever get together, they are really unstoppable without a lot of planning and preparation, as well as some artifacts in the players' possession.