Dweomerkeeper + Fabricate = Free Constructs?

[RoboEmperor]

Supernatural Spell ignores material components. Fabricate's material components are the raw materials that is to be used for construction. Therefore, Supernatural Spell lets Fabricate create anything out of nothing.

1. Supernatural Spell Fabricate to create a huge vat of Ambrosia.
2. Supernatural Spell Fabricate to create a finished, completely crafted golem body.
3. Supernatural Spell Fabricate to create whatever else you need, like rare oils, tinctures, admixtures, etc.
4. Finish building the construct using normal rules.

Attempting to create a golem master again XD.

[Endarire]

How does this process differ notably from using Craft feats aside from craft costs?

[Grod_The_Giant]

The problem with this plan is that Supernatural Spell doesn't override the "Target" line, or change the fact that the effect is "turn one thing into another."

[RoboEmperor]

How does this process differ notably from using Craft feats aside from craft costs?

It doesn't. It is solely for removing crafting costs. Death of a construct or inability to upgrade a construct ends the construct master's adventuring life due to wealth problems. This is my attempt to overcome such a problem without resorting to house rules. This would make constructs expendable and time the only limiting factor.


The problem with this plan is that Supernatural Spell doesn't override the "Target" line, or change the fact that the effect is "turn one thing into another."

Target & range is the resulting product. You need to touch material components. So normally you touch trees, the trees all get completely annihilated, and you create a wooden structure upto 10cft/level that is worth at most 3 times amount of the trees you just annihilated. Mass of annihilated trees don't matter. Only their worth in GP.

This is the only interpretation that works with the rules regarding material components and whatnot lol.

So supernatural spell will remove the part where you need to touch the trees. They really could've worded the spell better.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Target & range is the resulting product.
What? No, the target is the raw materials you're starting with. It can't be the finished product; that's like saying the target of Finger of Death is "one corpse."

Fabricate without material components is an odd one, because the material components and the target are the same thing. But I think that "you still need raw material" is the only interpretation that makes sense with how the spell is written.

[Goaty14]

Don't you expend xp to make golems?

[Jack_Simth]

Don't you expend xp to make golems?
Hence Crafting Ambrosia. That's usable in place of XP during crafting.

[RoboEmperor]

What? No, the target is the raw materials you're starting with. It can't be the finished product; that's like saying the target of Finger of Death is "one corpse."

Fabricate without material components is an odd one, because the material components and the target are the same thing. But I think that "you still need raw material" is the only interpretation that makes sense with how the spell is written.

You're violating a few laws either way. Material components by RAW have to be held/touched and I don't see the spell saying anything to override that, but I guess your interpretation is more plausible than mine.

But still, mass of the target doesn't matter, only their worth in gp, and you're not "transforming" one thing into another thing, you are annihilating one thing and creating a totally new thing, so I don't see why you can't target nothing and just create a totally new thing.

[Fouredged Sword]

Technically the target line states "Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text"

This makes the target an area rather than the result OR the raw material. The effect is that it "convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material"

Technically you still need material to be transmuted, but you can ignore the material component line about it requiring equal GP value as required to craft the item.

If you wanted to make a wood construct it would require SOME wood, but not and specific value of wood.

[RoboEmperor]

The effect is that it "convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material"

Annihilating and creating is still "conversion", and we removed the need to annihilate via supernatural spell just like how eschew materials removed the need to annihilate components for spells. So we're left with creating.

Anyways that's how I think it works by RAW. RAI is an entirely different matter.

If you can't target nothing I guess your interpretation is the best so far.

[icefractal]

By RAW, the target is an area and you simply need some of the same material, possible of the same quality ("The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication."), but not of the same volume. So you could turn a single gold piece into a large golden statue.

By RAI, Fabricate shouldn't have a material component at all, and the raw materials should be the target.

[ZamielVanWeber]

But still, mass of the target doesn't matter, only their worth in gp, and you're not "transforming" one thing into another thing, you are annihilating one thing and creating a totally new thing, so I don't see why you can't target nothing and just create a totally new thing.

I am honestly not sure where you are getting this part. Fabricate is transmutation, the school described as "spells that change the property of some creature, thing, or condition." The effect your are describing is at least partly Conjuration (Creation). More so the description of the spell explicitly uses the word "convert." Annihilation and creation are not conversion.

[RoboEmperor]

I am honestly not sure where you are getting this part. Fabricate is transmutation, the school described as "spells that change the property of some creature, thing, or condition." The effect your are describing is at least partly Conjuration (Creation). More so the description of the spell explicitly uses the word "convert." Annihilation and creation are not conversion.

Rules for material components. All material components are annihilated by RAW therefore Fabricate's material components are completely annihilated by spell energies.

[unseenmage]

As much as this thread intrigues me, pretty sure one cannot Fabricate ambrosia as, unlike say wall of stone's stone wall, it is the product of a non-instantaneous spell.

[Silva Stormrage]

As much as this thread intrigues me, pretty sure one cannot Fabricate ambrosia as, unlike say wall of stone's stone wall, it is the product of a non-instantaneous spell.

Was going to respond with this as well. Ambrosia is not a regular alchemical item that can be forged with Craft (Alchemy). You can not create something with Fabricate that can't be crafted via craft skills.

[RoboEmperor]

As much as this thread intrigues me, pretty sure one cannot Fabricate ambrosia as, unlike say wall of stone's stone wall, it is the product of a non-instantaneous spell.

Any source for this? I know for a fact there is no problem with using Polymorph Any Object to create Material Components with no "great intrinsic value", which is a Permanent Duration spell, so I don't see a problem with Ambrosia.

Also I'm pretty sure this is how Distilled Joy works.
1. You cast it on a creature (1 day casting time).
2. Whenever that creature experiences joy, you can draw forth ambrosia from it, forever and ever, until distilled joy is dispelled.
3. Ambrosia is not a dispellable, temporary item. It is no different than a potion.

This is the only interpretation that makes sense because there is not a chance in the nine hells you can time distilled joy perfectly to the creature's moment of bliss with a 1 day casting time.


Was going to respond with this as well. Ambrosia is not a regular alchemical item that can be forged with Craft (Alchemy). You can not create something with Fabricate that can't be crafted via craft skills.

Source? "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. ", as in you can fabricate articles that don't require a high degree of craftsmanship without an appropriate craft check, as in craft check is optional, not mandatory, and only applies if you need a craft check.

edit:Fabricate's restrictions are spelled out clearly.
1. No Creatures
2. No Magic Items
3. Raw materials are Material Components, so no spells like Minor/Major Creation.

And that's it, nothing else. Nothing about permanent duration items (though i believe Ambrosia is not permanent), and nothing about only fabricating items that require a craft check.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would note that constructs are magical and you will not be able to get around the 1000gp of crafting per day requirement. You can use fabricate to generate the GP side of the equation (you can practically do this normally though multiple castings and multistage refining.). Ambrosia can get around the EXP cost, but you would have to get around the crafting time. There are ways to push that time off on others, but not to eliminate it completely outside of wish.

As an example of how to bootstrap fabricate, start with raw lumber. Cast fabricate to turn 100gp of raw lumber into 300gp of cut lumber. Cast fabricate again to turn the 300gp of cut green lumber into 900gp of cut aged lumber. Buy 1gp of stain. Turn the 901gp of cut aged lumber and stain into 2703 stained lumber. Fabricate again to turn the stained lumber into cut components worth 8109. Now use those components to craft a magic item worth 16218 over 17 days.

You turn what is normally a supply line that covers about 20 people, 3 cities, and 3-4 years and into a single day's work. Ignoring the material components just let's you cut out 4 castings of fabricate and 101gp of material.

If you want metal, well take raw ore, crush the ore, smelt out the metal, split the metals by element, create an alloy, craft precut pieces, make the magic item.

[Sagetim]

Rules for material components. All material components are annihilated by RAW therefore Fabricate's material components are completely annihilated by spell energies.

And specific overrides general, meaning that this spell's specific rules about converting and not annihilating override the general rules about material components being annihilated, right?

Edit: I find that approach quite clever Fouredged, but there's only kink in that last example: To craft a magic item (well, at least a magic weapon or magic armor) it needs to be a completed masterwork item to start with. So you need to assemble the parts, or fabricate the completed product.

However, that's assuming you even have to play by the rules of value presented in crafting. If you don't, then you can take 50 pounds of steel ingots and fabricate them into the plates and bits for full plate, then make a simple craft check to fit in the various leather and bits together to finish the suit. Or, if your gm doesn't care about the line of transforming 'one sort of material into another object of the same material' then you can go straight from 50 pounds of iron, some coal, and assorted bits of leather and whatnot (costing, maybe 60 gold total) to a full suit of masterwork full plate in one go. Or, if you're really ambitious and you can sell it, Mountain Plate.

[unseenmage]

...

This is the only interpretation that makes sense because there is not a chance in the nine hells you can time distilled joy perfectly to the creature's moment of bliss with a 1 day casting time.

...
No clue about the rest but as to the bolded above, the spell Elation from the same book begs to differ, as does any spell which alters the mood/mind of the subject.

Edit: Additionally, if the spell does not work the way you think it does, and it instead creates a material with a duration of Permanent (D) then wouldnt creating that material with Fabricate be akin to creating a Wall of Force or other similar purely magical effect?

[Fouredged Sword]

Or, you know, you could just hold the charge while you are walking back after saving his spouse/child and tap him with it as discovers he/she is safe. You don't HAVE to cast a spell after finishing the casting.

[RoboEmperor]

I would note that constructs are magical and you will not be able to get around the 1000gp of crafting per day requirement. You can use fabricate to generate the GP side of the equation (you can practically do this normally though multiple castings and multistage refining.). Ambrosia can get around the EXP cost, but you would have to get around the crafting time. There are ways to push that time off on others, but not to eliminate it completely outside of wish.

Yup. As I mentioned before, this method does not circumvent the crafting time required. Only the money and xp. It does however circumvent the crafting time required for the golem's body.


As an example of how to bootstrap fabricate, start with raw lumber. Cast fabricate to turn 100gp of raw lumber into 300gp of cut lumber. Cast fabricate again to turn the 300gp of cut green lumber into 900gp of cut aged lumber. Buy 1gp of stain. Turn the 901gp of cut aged lumber and stain into 2703 stained lumber. Fabricate again to turn the stained lumber into cut components worth 8109. Now use those components to craft a magic item worth 16218 over 17 days.

You turn what is normally a supply line that covers about 20 people, 3 cities, and 3-4 years and into a single day's work. Ignoring the material components just let's you cut out 4 castings of fabricate and 101gp of material.

If you want metal, well take raw ore, crush the ore, smelt out the metal, split the metals by element, create an alloy, craft precut pieces, make the magic item.

Nice!


And specific overrides general, meaning that this spell's specific rules about converting and not annihilating override the general rules about material components being annihilated, right?

I was thinking along the lines of converting the Raw Materials into Spell Energies, and then converting the Spell Energies into the finished product, but you make a strong case. So I guess if we do decide you're right, we're down to targeting the correct material but ignore its gp cost.


No clue about the rest but as to the bolded above, the spell Elation from the same book begs to differ, as does any spell which alters the mood/mind of the subject.

I'll look into it. It's been a while since I touched ambrosia related stuff. I'll look at elation and search the book for official examples and get back to you.


Edit: Additionally, if the spell does not work the way you think it does, and it instead creates a material with a duration of Permanent (D) then wouldnt creating that material with Fabricate be akin to creating a Wall of Force or other similar purely magical effect?

I can't find anywhere that says you can't use Fabricate on a Wall of Force, but I see what you're saying. You're suggesting Wall of Force is a purely magical entity, fabricate only affects the physical, and as such it doesn't work on Wall of Force or ambrosia. Exact RAW is however, you can target magical items, but you can't create magical items. So I guess we're down to whether a chair made up purely of force is a magical item or not. If yes fabricate can't create a chair of force from a wall of force.

If we use an easier example, like Wall of Ice, is using fabricate on it to create a Chair of Ice results in a magical Chair of Ice, or just a Chair of Ice?

I think Permanent or Instantaneous duration is irrelevant. Look at using Polymorph Any Object to turn an object into a corpse for animate dead. Doesn't matter if the corpse is permanent duration or 20minutes, you can still animate it with animate dead, and it returns to its original form upon being hit by dispel magic. So if you turn a rock into a wall of rock, no reason you can't fabricate it despite being not instantaneous. Also, no reason you can't create an instantaneous duration ambrosia despite distilled joy being unable to do so.

In any case though, I guess it all comes down to, is ambrosia a magical item? If yes, this method only removes the GP component and not the XP component, making constructs not expendable, and forces the construct master to use of thought bottles extensively along with some kind of ambrosia farm.

[unseenmage]

...

I can't find anywhere that says you can't use Fabricate on a Wall of Force, but I see what you're saying. You're suggesting Wall of Force is a purely magical entity, fabricate only affects the physical, and as such it doesn't work on Wall of Force or ambrosia. Exact RAW is however, you can target magical items, but you can't create magical items. So I guess we're down to whether a chair made up purely of force is a magical item or not. If yes fabricate can't create a chair of force from a wall of force.

...
Not that I agree with this potential use of Fabricate (the whole thing leans too heavily on the 'well it doesnt say I cant' premise for my taste) but this bit did get me to wondering...

If this worked, could it be used to Fabricate the special matetial Riverine from the Stormwrack book?

[gogogome]

I'm sorry, I think fabricating Ambrosia is a stretch.

If we look at a similar item, Holy Water, we know for a fact Holy Water is magical, and as a result unable to be fabricated.

You're gonna have to rely on Thought bottles.

Otherwise yeah, dweomerkeeper lets you craft any item for free.

Interesting discovery, about how mass of the raw materials doesn't matter, only gp cost. Easy wealth increaser.

[Sagetim]

Not that I agree with this potential use of Fabricate (the whole thing leans too heavily on the 'well it doesnt say I cant' premise for my taste) but this bit did get me to wondering...

If this worked, could it be used to Fabricate the special matetial Riverine from the Stormwrack book?

It probably depends on what the special material is made of. So, the spell specifies that it transforms materials into an object of the same materials. With a general interpretation of 'one material targeted', so you can't, for example, target rust and flotsam to create steel because the spell's internal logic doesn't operate like that. While in real life, you could potentially gather a bunch of rust flakes, heat them up to burn off the oxide component and be left with iron (and possibly some impurities) then combine that with carbon from plant fibers to get steel (or, if you really know what you're doing, damascus steel). That's not how Fabricate is written, or at least not how it's generally interpreted. So you can turn a pile of scrap iron into iron ingots, but the iron ingots are still going to be rusty if the scrap is rusty, because the spell doesn't care about science or logic, it has it's own logic.

So yeah, if Riverine is just some crap you get out of some rocks, then you could target the rocks and fabricate them into Riverine and leave the rest of it behind, because it wasn't targeted by the spell. If Riverine is an Alloy, like Steel, then you're kind of SOL unless the DM is willing to let you make composite materials with Fabricate.

The spell does not specify a limitation that you can only make things with it using craft skills though. But it may require craft skills that don't exist within regular dnd settings or the core rules. So bear that in mind when you consider it's capabilities.

You cannot fabricate Ambrosia. I don't care if you're using some shenanigans with supernatural spell to skip around the materials thing. Ambrosia is a magical item, like a bottle of holy water, it is a magical item created by spell and registers with detect magic. It is not a temporary magic item either, it has no duration. Distill Bliss might, but the Ambrosia that it creates doesn't just poof at the end of the duration. Now, I don't know if you can dispel it, but I assume that it would be treated like holy water or potions when hit by a dispel.


Edit: Also, if you wanted to just pump out magic items, use the magic item option on wish and supernatural spell in conjunction with it. Admittedly, this has a much higher level required to do it, but if you're Good enough to make Ambrosia anyway, then you can possibly summon a Solar, make a compelling argument to get it to part with some fleshy bit of itself (since it regenerates anyway), then use Supernatral Spell and Simulacrum to get a Solar Simulacrum that can grant you a Wish per day, or something like that. Point is, it's cheesy and can potentially net you a steady supply of cheap golems as early as let's say level 13. With a 15k budget on wishing up golems, you'll have to go for quantity rather than quality, but with the right bags of holding or portable holes, you can possibly deploy your expendable golem army from allies willing to play up the shenanigans. If you got a big enough chunk from the Solar, you could possibly even break things further by making more than one Simulacrum and getting everyone +5 inherent bonuses on their stats by rapid fire wishing. The point is that you can really break things with Supernatural Spell.

[Fouredged Sword]

Interestingly, the main limit on Fabricate is the area, especially when you deal with metal objects or other minerals. A metamagic rod of sculpt spell removes the tiny area for metal objects and replaces it with a much more flexible 4 10ft cubes, totaling 400 sq ft.

[RoboEmperor]

Edit: Also, if you wanted to just pump out magic items, use the magic item option on wish and supernatural spell in conjunction with it. Admittedly, this has a much higher level required to do it, but if you're Good enough to make Ambrosia anyway, then you can possibly summon a Solar, make a compelling argument to get it to part with some fleshy bit of itself (since it regenerates anyway), then use Supernatral Spell and Simulacrum to get a Solar Simulacrum that can grant you a Wish per day, or something like that. Point is, it's cheesy and can potentially net you a steady supply of cheap golems as early as let's say level 13. With a 15k budget on wishing up golems, you'll have to go for quantity rather than quality, but with the right bags of holding or portable holes, you can possibly deploy your expendable golem army from allies willing to play up the shenanigans. If you got a big enough chunk from the Solar, you could possibly even break things further by making more than one Simulacrum and getting everyone +5 inherent bonuses on their stats by rapid fire wishing. The point is that you can really break things with Supernatural Spell.

Obviously I'm trying to avoid using wish. BTW using Dweomerkeeper just for wish is stupid. Shapechange = 1wish/round, planar binding = 3+wish/day, simulacrum breaks this further and all don't require Dweomerkeeper's prerequisites.

Anyways, I guess I have my answer to my thread. No, ambrosia is un-fabricate-able due to being a magic item. But at least I got rid of the GP cost.


Interestingly, the main limit on Fabricate is the area, especially when you deal with metal objects or other minerals. A metamagic rod of sculpt spell removes the tiny area for metal objects and replaces it with a much more flexible 4 10ft cubes, totaling 400 sq ft.

Nice. I'm a check if sculpt spell really works with Walls of X, Fabricate, Stone Shape, etc. This would help my planar binding characters immensely by letting them construct gargantuan statues with legs or wheels for ravid's at-will animate objects instead of relying on Secure Shelter.

[Sagetim]

I mean, if you're high enough level to be crafting golems anyway, then with a good alignment you can set up your own ambrosia factory. I'm sure we've had a thread about this (that I posted in, even) whereby we went over the steps necessary to set up a limitless bliss soup kitchen/Ambrosia factory. Give people free food and a place to stay and let them hang around blissed out of their minds from the elation spell and the homeless population in your nearby city has now become your primary means of producing ambrosia. What do they get out of it? A place to stay, food to eat, and exposure to a lotus eater temptation to just wile their lives away there. If they actually want to do stuff with their lives, well, that's on them, but until they get their crap together and figure that out, creating Ambrosia off them is a pretty fair trade off for free room and board (especially because, Unlike Liquid Pain, there's no cost to the target of Distill Joy).

[unseenmage]

Resetting traps or Spellclocks of a) Distill Joy, b) Elation, and c) Greater Humanoid Essence all placed right where your Dedicated Wright Homunculus works on crafting your Comstructs.

Add traps of True Creation for golem materials as needed.

[fire_insideout]

Nah, I don't buy this one.

The spell text is quite clear:

Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Description: You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.


So, if you don't have enough material to create whatever you want to create the spell doesn't work because, by RAW, it converts not creates.

Feel free to ignore the MR as much as you like, the spell will fail, by RAW.

[Hackulator]

Grod's interpretation is the only sane/intelligent one. Anything else is an attempt to be clever with rules in a way that isn't really clever, just annoying to anyone playing with you. If this is just a thought experiment then...I don't see the point of those.

[Fouredged Sword]

Transmutation can make mass. When you turn into a giant you don't have to be the same size as the giant. One top of that, there is not requirement for the material to be the same volume as the desired result, only that it is worth 33% of the desired result. Fabricate is PAO's more expensive and more permanent little brother. It is quite likely that you actually have to throw in additional supplies that are not actually used in the product, as you must expend the same cost as mundane crafting and mundane crafting accounts for fuel for blacksmith forges you are not using and other such expended materials.

One must realize that 3.5 has value as an intrinsic property. Value is not set by supply and demand, but rather is a property of material that cannot be changed regardless of how much or little you sell something for. Fabricate will turn a pile of 1lb of wood and 1lb of iron into a doll made of 2lbs of wood and .25lbs of metal joints. The only restriction is that the value of the doll cannot exceed three times the value of the material components IE the wood and iron you start with. Fabricate does not require in any way that the materials used as components actually be the materials one would use to mundanely craft the item, only that they have the same value as the materials you would use to craft the item AND be of the same type of material as the item. You can inflate the value of your material component this way by including high value objects of the same material, such as a sculpted wooden statue of high value being used to make a wooden gate or wall.

One could cast fabricate on a diamond and generate a diamond of 3x the value using craft gemcutting. You can then cast fabricate again to make a gem of 9x the starting value.

All spells that generate wealth, and fabricate expressly does this, break any concept of economy. The game would be better balanced if fabricate took some base magical material like diamond dust or gold and gave you a 1-1 value conversion to any mundane object, but no, it makes wealth from smaller piles of wealth.

[Rijan_Sai]

Nice. I'm a check if sculpt spell really works with Walls of X, Fabricate, Stone Shape, etc. This would help my planar binding characters immensely by letting them construct gargantuan statues with legs or wheels for ravid's at-will animate objects instead of relying on Secure Shelter.

While this is aside from the main point of Fabricate, I did check this for you and no, you can not use Sculpt Spell on any of those named. Sculpt Spell affects the "area" line, and none of those have that.


You can modify an area spell by changing the area’s shape...

(I can't answer anything from Fabricate, but I am learning a lot from this thread!)

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm... double-checking....

First off:
Ambrosia the only listed path is the spell, but Liquid Pain (Book of Vile Darkness) has a Craft(Alchemy) DC, and can be made with a simple Craft check just like any other drug.

However...
There may be a different problem with Frabricate that Dweomerkeeper doesn't entirely help with:
The materials to convert are both the target and the material component. Arguably, this means that you need twice as much starting to Fabricate things normally as you do for a simple Craft check. If the DM goes with that route, then Dweomerkeeper only gets rid of the material component portion - you still need the full normal crafting materials cost, so all it saves is time, not money.

[RoboEmperor]

Hmm... double-checking....

First off:
Ambrosia the only listed path is the spell, but Liquid Pain (Book of Vile Darkness) has a Craft(Alchemy) DC, and can be made with a simple Craft check just like any other drug.

OMG OMG OMG!!!!!! I LOVE YOU MAN! I remember you from PaO a Stone Golem Army.

The book explicitly says it is not a magic item. On the same table, it put a "1" next to any item that is magical, and that it doesn't work in an AMF, and Liquid Pain is NOT LISTED AS A MAGIC ITEM.

Ok, this character is back on! Supernatural Spell Fabricate Vat of Liquid Pain OR Ambrosia. Both are not magical! If something functions in an AMF, it is not magical, so the argument that Holy Water is not magical can be made!


However...
There may be a different problem with Frabricate that Dweomerkeeper doesn't entirely help with:
The materials to convert are both the target and the material component. Arguably, this means that you need twice as much starting to Fabricate things normally as you do for a simple Craft check. If the DM goes with that route, then Dweomerkeeper only gets rid of the material component portion - you still need the full normal crafting materials cost, so all it saves is time, not money.

There is only one material component. You either target it, or you hold it and annihilate it. You don't both hold, annihilate, and target it. Thinking this way breaks quite a few rules.

Anyways I could kiss you!

I still firmly believe you can target nothing and create whatever you want. Target is material component, you don't need material components for a Su spell, therefore you don't need a target, or something like that.

I am going to wait for some nay-sayers to say their piece in case I am wrong, and then I am going to submit my build to my DM for approval!


While this is aside from the main point of Fabricate, I did check this for you and no, you can not use Sculpt Spell on any of those named. Sculpt Spell affects the "area" line, and none of those have that.



(I can't answer anything from Fabricate, but I am learning a lot from this thread!)

I get what you're saying, you're saying the spell must have an "Area: ___" description to be sculpted. That makes sense.

[Sagetim]

Transmutation can make mass. *snip*


Just because Transmutation in general Can create matter, does not mean that Fabricate's Specific Rules use that capability. It describes a Conversion of mater, with no Creation involved. There Are spells for Creating matter whole cloth, Minor Creation, Major Creation, True Creation. They specifically state that they create matter. Fabricate specifically states that it converts matter. And Giant Growth and other shenanigans imply that for the duration of the spell, anything missing is made up for with magic.

This is a case of specific trumping general, and the specific rules on Fabricate specify Conversion, Not Creation.


Seperate Point: Fabricate's Material Components are used to result in the final target of the spell, because you are converting them from one shape to another using magic. Nothing about this process specifies having to pay the regular crafting cost to get the materials you need to Fabricate an item.* This also means that you do not need to pay for the materials twice, because you aren't causing them to be annihilated in the first place. The specific rules of Fabricate override the General rules of how material components work.


*Part of the logic of craft checks is that you are spending money on unspecified materials to craft the end product of your craft checks. Craft is supposed to represent regular crafting methods in use by middle ages level craftsmen, so you might wind up buying a variety of things that have little to nothing to do with the final product, but everything to do with the process involved in crafting it. Like oils, whet stones, fuel for the furnace, extra ore or ingots because of imperfect conversion of material from point a to point b. Middle Ages smiths had to work with crap tier steel, generally speaking, so you would get the popular image of a smith banging away at metal and having sparks flying all over the place. Those sparks are impurities present in the metal, and are a sign of low quality steel being used (which was common). When utilizing higher quality steel, you would get little to no sparks, and the material would be much harder to shape because you don't have those impurities to bang away, but result in a better quality item at the end of the process. Bearing that in mind, Fabricate skips the regular process and directly converts material from one shape to another, so you don't need hundreds of pounds of iron to get a single proper breast plate from copious hours of work, you only need the weight of the resulting breastplate in the metal you want it made of.


Edit: Sorry to rain on your parade, but Fabricate does not describe the creation of matter from nothing. As such, if you eliminate the materials cost of the spell using Supernatural Spell, you get nothing. You Fabricate Nothing into Nothing and Nothing happens. Now, if your GM wants to rule that it works, that's freakin sweet and you should run with it all the way to the bank, don't let me stop you. But don't be surprised if they say 'that's not how it works'.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I am still fairly confident that this simply does not work. The spell's effect is to convert material from for A to B. If A does not exist it cannot be converted. The fact that it annihilates the material component just means the spell is dysfunctional at base and removing the material component would undo the dysfunctional part but still require the material to be converted. In short, ex nihilo nihilo fit.

Edit: nicely swordsage'd by sagetim.

[RoboEmperor]

You Fabricate Nothing into Nothing

Interesting Argument, but then we have spells like Simulacrum and creatures like Mirror Mephit who prove you wrong.

If we use parallelism to modify your argument for Simulacrum instead of Fabricate, your argument would be "If you use eschew materials to remove the piece of creature material component, you are creating a simulacrum of nothing therefore you get nothing", but here we have a Mirror Mephit, using its SLA to magically substitute the piece of creature material component for its simulacrum.
I'm not saying your reasoning is wrong, I'm saying WotC purposefully went a different direction than your reasoning.

So likewise, supernatural spell will be magically substituting the raw material components for fabricate letting the spell emulate True Creation.

As mentioned before, the spell is dysfunctional, since it uses GP cost instead of actually mass, but what can you do.

Dweomerkeeper is a TO class. Not high-op, not high tier, but straight up TO, so being able to do some really crazy things is only natural. Tearing apart the exact mechanics of a spell and taking tremendous advantage of it is the definition of TO.

Yes, a reasonable DM would rewrite the spell to remove the material component entry, and instead add it as another sentence in the spell description, or also include an equal-mass clause, but that's not what WotC did so...

edit: Ultimately, everything I want to do here can be done with a wizard. He teleports to that Planar Metropolis, uses Flesh to Salt to make a **** ton of money, and using that infinite money he buys all the liquid pain and crafting material he needs. But I'm doing all this to be civilizaiton independent. This is off-topic but, that is my motivation for trying to figure this out XD.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Simulacrum as an example does not work here. It is an illusion spell that makes an illusion of the person affected. Simulacrum does not convert the tiny piece of person into a bigger person: it forms an illusion of the person you have a piece of around snow. In the case of Fabricate, a spell that explicitly converts a material from one form to another form composed of the same material, you need a thing to convert.

[RoboEmperor]

Simulacrum as an example does not work here. It is an illusion spell that makes an illusion of the person affected. Simulacrum does not convert the tiny piece of person into a bigger person: it forms an illusion of the person you have a piece of around snow. In the case of Fabricate, a spell that explicitly converts a material from one form to another form composed of the same material, you need a thing to convert.

Again, the argument here is that you magically substitute the thing you want to convert. So through magic, instead of converting something into something, you use magic to get rid of the first something to turn nothing into something. As the dweomerkeeper you are breaking the laws of the spell, like eschew materials does for a lot of spells.

Even so, fouredgedsword demonstrated how you could expand the mass of your materials by three fold every casting because the spell disregards mass, only gp value. In any case you are creating. Sagetim's argument in that matter is strictly RAI not RAW. We're not debating what the spell was intended for, we're exploiting WotC's poor rule writing skills, like for thought bottle. I was laughing so hard when I read the FAQ's ruling on using thought bottle for overcoming crafting XP cost. He said "No, that's not what it was intended for so you can't do that!" with 0 mention of mechanics, just intent.

I guess we have to agree to disagree at this point since we're presenting the same arguments at this point. Worst case scenario I just start out with a tiny piece of the material I want to create and turn it into whatever amount I want because there is without a doubt you can turn 1gp worth of stuff into 3gp worth of stuff through normal usage of fabricate without dweomerkeeper. Tiny 1gp wooden figurine fabricated into a massive barrel worth 3gp which is fabricated again into a tiny 9gp wooden figurine, etc. You are creating/destroying.

[Sagetim]

No, my argument is quite simple: Specific trumps General.

Also, a rather important part of the specific rules of Fabricate is that it cares about Volume, not mass nor gold piece cost. It targets a volume of material, and results in a volume of material. *


If you want to interpret that supernatural spell's changing of a spell into a supernatural effect is supplying the missing material components, that is one Interpretation of how those rules are written. Another Interpretation of how those rules are written is that supernatural effects do not have material components to begin with, and as such, you wind up with nothing happening when you cast Fabricate with no material components targeted because you're trying to wish up a bunch of Ambrosia without using Wish. I don't begrudge you from wanting your interpretation of those rules to be correct, but I do want you to be aware that your DM is not obligated to agree and nod their head.

*Furthermore, you might need to move away from the RAW on the spell and into Interpretation to combine multiple materials.

Varnish is not wood, for example, so trying to varnish wood with Fabricate is not going to work with the way the spell is written. One material, to same material different shape.

It's the same reason we can't have nice things and use Wall of Iron to flood the market with masterwork steel daggers.

I think it would fall into the realm of interpretation on Wood to Aged wood as well, but more of a 'is wood, but older, the same material?' than 'the rules specify one material type as target and end result'.

[RoboEmperor]

I just rembered Rejkars from MMIII have SLA at-will fabricate, so don't need to be dweomerkeeper for this XD.

[fire_insideout]

Still doesn't help you. They too need to convert rather than create the material.

[Fouredged Sword]

All covert means is that one thing becomes another thing though a process, in this case magic.

All that says is that you cannot start with literally nothing. You must have some base material to start the spell. You convert material into another object of the same material type and quality. Nothing is said about size or shape outside the limits of the spell's area. Nothing is said about value outside the material component line within the spell itself. There is no requirement that the initial material be actually ABLE to make the resulting material. Nothing in the phrase "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." indicates that mass is conserved. All it states is that you start with a thing of one material and you end up with a different thing made up of the same material. If they wanted to put in a volume requirement they could have, but absent some language like "You can form an existing piece of material into any shape that suits your purpose" or some such like in shaping spells such as stoneshape, there is no such requirement.

[RoboEmperor]

Still doesn't help you. They too need to convert rather than create the material.

I'm gonna repeat this one last time.

1. Without any shenanigans, Fabricate increases and decreases the mass and volume of the material. A wooden art object, which is worth 1,100gp and is the size of your hand, can be fabricated into a gargantuan wooden house with fancy decorations that is worth 3,300gp, increasing its mass and volume drastically. Likewise a gargantuan wooden house without any fancy decorations and maybe also has visible damage which makes it worth only 367gp can be fabricated into a 1,100gp wooden art object, decreasing its mass and volume drastically.

The spell specifically says the material component is the original material worth the same as the raw materials. It doesn't say you need the raw materials, it doesn't say the same amount of mass, volume, or weight. It only specifies WORTH. So if you are fabricating a wooden thing into another wooden thing, as long as the first wooden thing is worth 1/3 of the second wooden thing, you can "convert" it regardless of mass or volume.

So we established that fabricate can create and destroy mass. Ok?

2. The Craft Skill is a wealth tripler. Some people can take advantage of that. Buy 1,000gp worth of raw materials, turn it into 3,000gp worth of product, sell it, buy 3,000gp worth of raw materials, and repeat. Fabricate removes the time requirement for this which is why the spell can get out of hand.

3. This is where the shenanigan starts. Because of the way WotC wrote the spell, you no longer need the original material that is worth as much as the raw materials with supernatural spell. Whether you still need to target a piece of the original material or not is still up for interpretation.

So tell me, exactly, how the word "convert" denies all this?

"You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material."

A tiny wooden art object is a material of one sort, and a Gargantuan Wooden House is a product of the same material. Nope, still lets you increase/decrease mass.

Are you saying, by definition, the word convert has mass and volume restrictions in place? Pretty sure it doesn't, because I looked the word up, and for example, I can convert all of my pebbles in my backyard into dragons via the Polymorph Any Object Spell, so... nope. I used the word correctly and defied the law of conservation of mass.

End result: You can convert 200gp of liquid pain into 600gp of liquid pain with Fabricate. 200gp of liquid pain is the original material that is worth the same as the raw materials to make 600gp of liquid pain. You can convert 200gp of liquid pain into 9999999999999999999999gp of liquid pain with supernatural spell and fabricate.

[lbuttitta]

...
3. Ambrosia is not a dispellable, temporary item. It is no different than a potion.
...
edit:Fabricate's restrictions are spelled out clearly.
1. No Creatures
2. No Magic Items
3. Raw materials are Material Components, so no spells like Minor/Major Creation.
...

If Ambrosia is no different than a potion, then it can't be created by fabricate, because potions are magic items and, as you said yourself, fabricate can't create magic items.

Edit: Same for Liquid Pain.

[unseenmage]

If Ambrosia is no different than a potion, then it can't be created by fabricate, because potions are magic items and, as you said yourself, fabricate can't create magic items.

Edit: Same for Liquid Pain.

We established earlier that Liquid Pain is explicitly not a magic item.


On this page even.

And though drawing comparison between the two would make them seem equivalent, by RAW only the one is declared a non magic item.

[Fouredged Sword]

And if you are squeamish about getting the first drop of liquid pain a chaos flask can become a bottle of it without moral issue.

You need to carry a coin of ever useful special non-magical material. Being able to generate weapons of any sort as needed seems like a useful ability.

[Sagetim]

I'm gonna repeat this one last time.

1. Without any shenanigans, Fabricate increases and decreases the mass and volume of the material. A wooden art object, which is worth 1,100gp and is the size of your hand, can be fabricated into a gargantuan wooden house with fancy decorations that is worth 3,300gp, increasing its mass and volume drastically. Likewise a gargantuan wooden house without any fancy decorations and maybe also has visible damage which makes it worth only 367gp can be fabricated into a 1,100gp wooden art object, decreasing its mass and volume drastically.

The spell specifically says the material component is the original material worth the same as the raw materials. It doesn't say you need the raw materials, it doesn't say the same amount of mass, volume, or weight. It only specifies WORTH. So if you are fabricating a wooden thing into another wooden thing, as long as the first wooden thing is worth 1/3 of the second wooden thing, you can "convert" it regardless of mass or volume.

So we established that fabricate can create and destroy mass. Ok?

2. The Craft Skill is a wealth tripler. Some people can take advantage of that. Buy 1,000gp worth of raw materials, turn it into 3,000gp worth of product, sell it, buy 3,000gp worth of raw materials, and repeat. Fabricate removes the time requirement for this which is why the spell can get out of hand.

3. This is where the shenanigan starts. Because of the way WotC wrote the spell, you no longer need the original material that is worth as much as the raw materials with supernatural spell. Whether you still need to target a piece of the original material or not is still up for interpretation.

So tell me, exactly, how the word "convert" denies all this?

"You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material."

A tiny wooden art object is a material of one sort, and a Gargantuan Wooden House is a product of the same material. Nope, still lets you increase/decrease mass.

Are you saying, by definition, the word convert has mass and volume restrictions in place? Pretty sure it doesn't, because I looked the word up, and for example, I can convert all of my pebbles in my backyard into dragons via the Polymorph Any Object Spell, so... nope. I used the word correctly and defied the law of conservation of mass.

End result: You can convert 200gp of liquid pain into 600gp of liquid pain with Fabricate. 200gp of liquid pain is the original material that is worth the same as the raw materials to make 600gp of liquid pain. You can convert 200gp of liquid pain into 9999999999999999999999gp of liquid pain with supernatural spell and fabricate.

Man, I really should have actually gone and read Fabricate instead of trying to operate from memory. I do, in fact owe you an apology for at least part of this. I am sorry, I was wrong, the spell does mention the material components needing to be the same value as the raw materials for crafting the resulting item. Figuring it would probably be relevant to get a refresher on the specific ability in question, I started hunting down the Dweomerkeeper. I found it in Faiths and Pantheons, with no Supernatural Spell class ability. Nope...that can't be the right one. So after some digging I pulled up the web enhancement for Complete Divine, where the Dweomerkeeper with Supernatural Spell is from. Lo and behold, there we go, the class ability we've all be jabbering about.

To quote:


Supernatural Spell (Su): At 4th level, the
dweomerkeeper is so attuned to the fabric of magic
that she can manifest spell effects with almost no effort
whatsoever. Once per day as a standard action, she can
use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard
action as a supernatural ability. The spell chosen must
be one that is currently available to the dweomerkeeper
(that is, one that she has prepared or that she
knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level available
to cast), but she can decide at the moment of casting
to use this ability. The spell functions as it normally
would and is expended normally, but the dweomerkeeper
does not require any components, does not provoke
attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target’s
spell resistance, just as if she were using a supernatural
ability instead of a spell. At every even-numbered level
after the 4th, the dweomerkeeper gains one additional
use of this ability per day.


Oooo, ran into some relevant text there that puts a damper on Fabricate: "Once per day as a standard action, she can use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability."

So, you'll need to put more effort in to make Fabricate work with this prestige class ability. Fabricate has a casting time of 'see text', so let's just bring that up from the srd and see what it says in full:



You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.
Material Component

The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.


"Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell." translates to full round actions, as far as I am aware. If you can find a way to bring the casting time down to fit under the 'standard action or less' limit on Supernatural Spell, then yes, you can do what you have laid out with the rules as they are written. Quicken spell offers a possible work around, but only if you keep to affecting a minimal amount of material per casting (since it only works on spells with up to a full round casting time).

Again, I will caution that the DM may not accept the rules as written and may choose to interpret them differently, so good luck on that front of things.

Oh, something worth considering: Is Liquid Pain even a viable target for this spell? Oh, that's whats missing from the srd description that was in the player's handbook- the reference to making rope from hemp, a bridge from trees, etc. It Implies an organic/mineral limitation, when the fluid of things like Liquid Pain don't necessarily fit within those terms. This might be another point of contention with a GM that you are trying to convince to let this fly with. Considering the nature of Liquid Pain, it might be a liquid format emotion, and thus neither organic, nor mineral, nor etc.

A final consideration is that you'll still need to fit within the area defined by the spell, even if you're breaking it with Supernatural spell. So if 200g is an ounce of liquid pain, and you can only Supernatural Spell up to 10cu feet of it, then you'll a) need to figure out how many ounces can go into that space and b) get a container big enough to hold it. What this Can let you do (rules as written) is to take your 1oz vial of liquid pain, turn it into a vat of 10cu feet of Liquid pain using Supernatural Spell and some format of Quicken Spell (and still have the 1oz vial) then target the vat with regular fabricate and a longer casting time to triple your new supply of Liquid Pain. If Ambrosia is not a magical item (I am lazy and didn't look that up either, so I should be better about that into the future), then you can possibly do the same trick with Ambrosia, which seems like it would get you where you want to go without royally pissing off Mystra, who, being some flavor of Good would probably be quite upset at someone in Her prestige class creating Liquid Pain. As far as I recall, Liquid Pain can also be taken like a drug and can leave people addicted to it like Heroin. So you might want to move away from the Liquid Pain plan given the Prestige Class you're trying to exploit.

I was going to end this post by expressing doubts about going Liquid Pain to Liquid Pain, but on rereading Fabricate again....yeah, it doesn't specify finished product or different product or any modifier. You could fabricate a chair into a much fancier chair. So again, sorry for giving you a hard time about this in previous posts. I try to make a habit of surfacing mental models and making sure they are in proper working order, but that doesn't always happen in a timely manner, and I wind up being more of a jerk than intended.

Edit: Oh, and you would need Quicken Spell (or some variation thereof), because you need the casting time of the spell to fit under the guidelines laid out by the class ability to qualify for use with it, Quick Supernatural Ability would just let you do this with a snap of your fingers After you have a spell that qualifies for use with the class ability.

[RoboEmperor]

I did overlook casting time requirement. Rapid Spell and Quicken Spell can solve it, but the Rejkar outsider from MMIII has at-will Fabricate as an SLA which makes them the best choice for this, especially since this would let me bypass dweomerkeeper altogether and convert my planar binding cleric into a golem master by simply grabbing three feats: craft wondrous item, craft magical arms and armor, and craft construct. And they're only 5hd! so accessible at level 9! The only downside is, being a monster, you don't have control of its craft skill so you're gonna need some way to beat the craft DCs, either by spamming fabricate until you succeed, or cast fabricate yourself at the end using the stuff the Rejkar expanded.

I don't know if I'm reading this right, but I believe the result is independent of the volume restrictions. Target is limited by 10cft or 1cft per level, but the result... I don't see anything XD.

[Sagetim]

I did overlook casting time requirement. Rapid Spell and Quicken Spell can solve it, but the Rejkar outsider from MMIII has at-will Fabricate as an SLA which makes them the best choice for this, especially since this would let me bypass dweomerkeeper altogether and convert my planar binding cleric into a golem master by simply grabbing three feats: craft wondrous item, craft magical arms and armor, and craft construct. And they're only 5hd! so accessible at level 9! The only downside is, being a monster, you don't have control of its craft skill so you're gonna need some way to beat the craft DCs, either by spamming fabricate until you succeed, or cast fabricate yourself at the end using the stuff the Rejkar expanded.

I don't know if I'm reading this right, but I believe the result is independent of the volume restrictions. Target is limited by 10cft or 1cft per level, but the result... I don't see anything XD.

I mean, it Implies that the target is supposed to fit within those dimensions as both a material component and the end result of the spell, as far as I can tell. But another interpretation (the one I am going to move forward with) is that your end product is what the spell's target refers to. After all, you already account for the material components side of thing with the material components entry.

Does the Rrejkar have an ECL? If it's not listed in MM3, it might be because the writer's considered it unsuitable for player usage, or it might be buried in the errata (or changed in the errata, if any). As far as I am aware, when you play a monster as your character, you get to spend your hit dice based skill points and feat selections as you see fit, so while craft might not be on the list of class skills for the outsider hit dice, you could still invest in it.

A separate issue from that is the matter of qualifying for those feats. If you can use spell like abilities to qualify for them, then everything is honky dory, but I'm not sure if you can use racial caster levels to qualify, you may well need actual caster levels. I do seem to recall the ability to stack racial caster levels with actual class levels for the purpose of spellcasting, but the only example that comes to mind is the mystic caster levels draconian from some Dragonlance sourcebook, and that had full blown spells per day and so on. So I would double check the rules on that before moving forward. I suppose the worst case scenario is that the monster has too high of an ecl for you to start as one (ECL +5 hit dice = character level, as far as the system is concerned for playing them), but the second worst case scenario would be that you'll have to take the full, normal amount of caster levels as class levels to get up to the point of qualifying for those feats. If the ECL is low enough (or actually 0) then this isn't a huge problem, it just delays the golem making part of it. That said, I think Practiced Spellcaster might come to save the day for you in that case, since all 5 of those hit dice qualify as not being caster levels.

[RoboEmperor]

Rejkars are LA+6, CR5. With 5hd they are ECL 11.

My DM at least doesn't allow me to customize the outsiders I call with planar binding, saying the spell is powerful enough without that added customization. They have craft armorsmithing, carpentry, and weaponsmithing at +13.

[Fouredged Sword]

Rejkars are LA+6, CR5. With 5hd they are ECL 11.

My DM at least doesn't allow me to customize the outsiders I call with planar binding, saying the spell is powerful enough without that added customization. They have craft armorsmithing, carpentry, and weaponsmithing at +13.

Tap em with guidance of the avatar for + 20. That solves skills.

[RoboEmperor]

Tap em with guidance of the avatar for + 20. That solves skills.

That's 3.0. Pretty sure Divine Insight is the updated version of it, and it's range is personal.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That's 3.0. Pretty sure Divine Insight is the updated version of it, and it's range is personal.

Unless it was explicitly updated it still exists, so you can Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar. Combine with the Ancestral Speaker for insane bonuses to skill checks.

[Fouredged Sword]

Updated in an official web expansion i am pretty sure.

[ZamielVanWeber]

This (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) is the only trace I could find of it.

[Sagetim]

Oh, right, summoning them to make them do your work for you. I mean, one of the potential problems there lies entirely outside theorycrafting, and that has to do with the 'outsiders tend not to work for free' part of planar binding and other summonings like that. After looking the spells up (at least the ones in the player's handbook) it looks like Planar Ally puts what shows up in the hands of your character's god (in this case, the DM) while Planar Binding requires cajoling and charisma checking the target until they agree to perform a service (but may decide to seek revenge on you). Planar Ally does lay out some guidelines for pricing though, and for a being that can cast Fabricate at will, that seems like it would fall under a simple task that would take no more than 1 minute per caster level to get a few castings of it from the summoned outsider. So that would cost 500 gold for the services (100 per hd of outsider). This eats into your profits from Fabricating, but you're still making ludicrous bank as long as you're starting from a decently costly material component (like Diamonds, or Diamond Dust).

So if you have a way around that, or if my impression of binding spells is inaccurate, that's well and good. Otherwise, you have a new wrinkle in making this work for the overall plan of making golems affordable minions. That being either paying your workers (planar ally spells) or risking their ire (Planar Bindings). Planar Ally also has a casting time far in excess of quicken, so you can't Supernatural Spell it's xp cost away.

A separate but related issue is that if you summon these outsiders often enough and have them doing the same work regularly, they should eventually realize that you aren't really a necessary part of this equation, and could go into a very lucrative business for themselves with regards to mass Fabrication of Liquid Pain, flooding the market with it to the point of possibly devaluing it, yes, even given the ludicrously sized nature of the outer planes. They can cast Fabricate at will, if the trick spreads through their population enough, they can have an impact on the supply side even if demand is effectively infinite. Now, this does require your DM to do a little modeling and arbitration, but it's a fairly simple and reasonable consequence of having intelligent beings casting fabricate for your repeatedly and often enough.

A possible way around this is to ensure that they never get home (which sounds ominous, and possibly quite evil, I know). It would be nice if I could say 'and this is where Truenaming comes in', but having just double checked the Fiendbinder prestige class, it is not. Because while that prestige class does have the ability to permanently bind outsiders to their service (and if the outsider dies while in service, they're dead for real, they don't just pop back to their home plane, cackle, and steeple finger), it also has a specific list tied directly to prestige class level. And the outsider we want isn't on that list. From level 1 to 10, the list goes: Babau, Succubus, Hellcat, Vrock, Cauchemar Nightmare, Retrieve demon, Hezrou demon, Barbed Devil, Ice Devil, Marilith. So if you think being able to permanently bind those might help solve any of your workers comp related problems, then the prestige class might be handy. Otherwise, probably not so much (it's also a 7/10 prestige class, so by the time you hit 10 in it at level 17, you're onl casting 7th level spells). And the permanent binding costs money, but quite frankly, you can handle that with Fabricating Liquid Pain.

[Fouredged Sword]

Perhaps do this as a cleric with the cold domains. Call one, rebuke it, command it to find you, then end the planer binding spell. Possibly hand it a way to planeshift and or greater teleport if it would have a hard time getting to you in the first place.

At 5HD, you can rebuke two into your control at level 10. Crystals of Psi-reform allows you set their skill points as you desire. Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight + diplomacy and the redemption rules allows you to change their alignment to match your own.

Boom, two companions to preform all your mundane crafting. They have some area concerns, but I THINK a SLA can benefit from a metamagic rod. If not, you are stuck with CL 5 fabricate, so 5ft^3 metal objects. Wood should be fine for medium wooden constructs, but you will be stuck with posibly using something like the dwarf domain to add fabricate to your list and doing the final product yourself.

As you level you will want to train your pet devils to get them some class levels. They can take 1 level each per 2 levels you have, so at level 20 they can have 10HD. I suggest training them as fiends of possession. This lets them be discreetly hidden in some items and later in yourself.

There is a story somewhere in there about a dwarf cleric from a cold northern hold redeeming and then binding to his service two cold blooded servants of the lower planes. I may do this for the next exalted good themed game I get into. A vow on non-violence artificer dwarf cleric who talks, builds, and stubborns his way though problems, but will not kill. Not when there is even a hope of a different way. The winter is cold friend, we must all work together if we hope to survive it.

[unseenmage]

Depending on the level of customization and allowance of 3rd party material allowed at your table...

Advanced Bestiary has the Amalgam template which literally lets you combine any two creatures. What's fun for Construct crafters is that ANY creature combined with a Construct makes a Construct, including even undead and outsiders.

There are two very important lines if text buried in the template, 1) that the Amalgam can be mindless if at least one of the components is mindless
and 2) that the Amalagam should retain as many traits of both creatures as possible, which to me includes a Golem's being commandable by its creator.

Edit: For pricing Constructs I default to PF's Buildingand Modifying Constructs section of the PRD. CR*CR*500 for the price ÷2 for cost. Price *0.1 for the price of the body. I like this method because it standardizes Construct pricing, something that should have been done between 3.0 and 3.5 or evem way back when 3.0 started callling Constructs magic items.

Without 3rd party though the only thing that comes to mind is the Rune Guardian from MM2 and its SLAs dont go up to Fabricate's spell level IIRC.
Maybe Divine Metamagic Sanctum Spell Fabricate crammed into a Runic Guardian?

Another thought is to use a War Spell Fabricate (check my sig for a link to a thread of War Spells). For +1 spell level you get what 25 times the volume? Will require some rules stretching and is super cheesey but this thread already reeks of gouda.

[RoboEmperor]

Oh, right, summoning them to make them do your work for you. I mean, one of the potential problems there lies entirely outside theorycrafting, and that has to do with the 'outsiders tend not to work for free' part of planar binding and other summonings like that. After looking the spells up (at least the ones in the player's handbook) it looks like Planar Ally puts what shows up in the hands of your character's god (in this case, the DM) while Planar Binding requires cajoling and charisma checking the target until they agree to perform a service (but may decide to seek revenge on you). Planar Ally does lay out some guidelines for pricing though, and for a being that can cast Fabricate at will, that seems like it would fall under a simple task that would take no more than 1 minute per caster level to get a few castings of it from the summoned outsider. So that would cost 500 gold for the services (100 per hd of outsider). This eats into your profits from Fabricating, but you're still making ludicrous bank as long as you're starting from a decently costly material component (like Diamonds, or Diamond Dust).

Planar Binding is free. As long as you win the charisma check, you can force free service. Depending on the DM this usually causes the outsider to become vengeful, but still it's free service.


Perhaps do this as a cleric with the cold domains. Call one, rebuke it, command it to find you, then end the planer binding spell. Possibly hand it a way to planeshift and or greater teleport if it would have a hard time getting to you in the first place.

First time I ever heard of that domain power being useful XD. If you don't make a deal and break the trap, the planar bound outsider is there permanently, and must find its own way back via dimensional travel. So call the creature, rebuke it, and break the circle. No need to make deals, or have it find you.


Without 3rd party though the only thing that comes to mind is the Rune Guardian from MM2 and its SLAs dont go up to Fabricate's spell level IIRC.
Maybe Divine Metamagic Sanctum Spell Fabricate crammed into a Runic Guardian?

Runic Guardian goes up to 7th level. I've been using them as a factory to produce simulacrums of greater stone golems.

[Fouredged Sword]

First time I ever heard of that domain power being useful XD. If you don't make a deal and break the trap, the planar bound outsider is there permanently, and must find its own way back via dimensional travel. So call the creature, rebuke it, and break the circle. No need to make deals, or have it find you.


The first time I realized the usefulness of that combo I made a Travel/Air/Knowledge cloistered cleric who flew around on a rebuked air elemental as a mount. Better yet, the ability to gain control of a creature is based on it's effective HD. Once it is under your control you can maintain control until it exceeds your control TOTAL. You can control a creature with half your HD in HD. You can control your FULL HD in total HD. Negative levels can be used to reduce a creatures HD until it fits within your control pool. You can use this to rebuke and maintain control over a single creature up to your HD.

AND once I realized THAT I made Uther Dragonking, a dragonborn cleric 19 / contemplative 1 who runs around with 9th level cleric spells and a 20HD sample of each metalic dragon rebuked under his control. Rebuke dragon, cold, fire, earth, and air - 5 different rebuke pools that can rebuke dragons of different types.

[unseenmage]

...

Runic Guardian goes up to 7th level. I've been using them as a factory to produce simulacrums of greater stone golems.

There you go then. War Spell Fabricate SLA in a craftable Construct. Mission accomplished.
Could build two, giving both Greater Humanoid Essence, Elation, and Distilled Joy as well and just have them BE the whole factory.

Though I prefer Spellsong Nightingales for my low level spell slinging Constructs.

[RoboEmperor]

The first time I realized the usefulness of that combo I made a Travel/Air/Knowledge cloistered cleric who flew around on a rebuked air elemental as a mount. Better yet, the ability to gain control of a creature is based on it's effective HD. Once it is under your control you can maintain control until it exceeds your control TOTAL. You can control a creature with half your HD in HD. You can control your FULL HD in total HD. Negative levels can be used to reduce a creatures HD until it fits within your control pool. You can use this to rebuke and maintain control over a single creature up to your HD.

AND once I realized THAT I made Uther Dragonking, a dragonborn cleric 19 / contemplative 1 who runs around with 9th level cleric spells and a 20HD sample of each metalic dragon rebuked under his control. Rebuke dragon, cold, fire, earth, and air - 5 different rebuke pools that can rebuke dragons of different types.

Interesting. I haven't thought of using negative levels for turn/rebuke, since you know, undead are unaffected by it XD.

This actually sounds fun. I'm a go see what I can do with this new knowledge!

[unseenmage]

Interesting. I haven't thought of using negative levels for turn/rebuke, since you know, undead are unaffected by it XD.

This actually sounds fun. I'm a go see what I can do with this new knowledge!
Greater Humanoid Essence and the Warforged Domain should let you do the same with Constructs.

[Sagetim]

*snip

At 5HD, you can rebuke two into your control at level 10. Crystals of Psi-reform allows you set their skill points as you desire. Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight + diplomacy and the redemption rules allows you to change their alignment to match your own.

*snip*
As you level you will want to train your pet devils to get them some class levels. They can take 1 level each per 2 levels you have, so at level 20 they can have 10HD. I suggest training them as fiends of possession. This lets them be discreetly hidden in some items and later in yourself.
*snip*

Alright, wait, What? I get the rebuke thing, assuming they are legal targets of it and all. That's not my problem here. Psychic Reformation is going to require you to get access to said item, by hook or by crook or by having a psionic party member willing to craft said item (which, if you can supply them with Ambrosia or Liquid Pain or w/e to mitigate xp cost, they might be). Diplomancering their alignment to match yours, fine, fine...shenanigans, but fine.

Where did the training thing come from? Like, just where? Is it buried off in the DMG 2 or PHB 2 or something? That sounds like some really useful rules to take advantage of (and would be very handy for the rulers in the Hereditary Rulership thread).

Building off from the training thing though, you should shop around for prestige classes that you would want to reform them into qualifying for, instead of base class levels. There's even monstrous prestige classes to consider, especially if you can shift their skill points around to your taste. I'm willing to bet there's a monstrous prestige class out there that pumps up SLA's, whether it is useful or not is yet to be seen.

[Fouredged Sword]

I mean old fashioned training. Take them out, buff them up, and include them in encounters that give out EXP. As independent real beings who have simply been called into the material plane they are valid party members for any encounter they help with.

I recommend encouraging them to take levels in the Fiend of Possession PRC. It will allow them to be in encounters without being in any real threat.

[gogogome]

I stand corrected. Yup, by RAW fabricate is a wealth by level destroyer since you can triple crafting components with one casting, and Rejkars are now lesser Efreetis, because they can utterly annihilate the campaign's wealth like wishing for epic magic items, but unlike efreetis, you still need to put in the time, feats, and required caster levels to get the magic item.

Also by RAW, only your target is limited by size restrictions, not the result. I can already picture some of my players throwing a flask of acid and fabricating it to flood the entire region.

Having said that I will now put Rejkars as TO outsiders, same level as efreetis, and unavailable in my non-TO campaigns. So to the OP, yes Rejkars are a valid TO substitute for efreetis in a no-wish TO level game, but they are still TO.

[Fouredged Sword]

I stand corrected. Yup, by RAW fabricate is a wealth by level destroyer since you can triple crafting components with one casting, and Rejkars are now lesser Efreetis, because they can utterly annihilate the campaign's wealth like wishing for epic magic items, but unlike efreetis, you still need to put in the time, feats, and required caster levels to get the magic item.

Also by RAW, only your target is limited by size restrictions, not the result. I can already picture some of my players throwing a flask of acid and fabricating it to flood the entire region.

Having said that I will now put Rejkars as TO outsiders, same level as efreetis, and unavailable in my non-TO campaigns. So to the OP, yes Rejkars are a valid TO substitute for efreetis in a no-wish TO level game, but they are still TO.

Time can be shortened be the crafting wright construct minion that crafts for you with your feats.

[unseenmage]

Stormwrack's Water to Acid spell and Create Water also wreck economies and they're both comparable to Distilled Joy and Elation in spell level.

Runic Guardian, Spellsong Nightingale, and Spellstitched Undead can all use these spells as SLAs and are player creatable.

Heck, Simulacrums of Wizards work just as well, as does just Diplomancing regular Wizards.

Not to memtion Wall of x shenanigans or just hitting up the Plane of Earth for valuable gems etc.


The point being there are just sooooo many ways to break WBL guidelines it seems more useful to agree to a gentleman's agreement rather than banning this or that exploit willy nilly.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sagetim]

Stormwrack's Water to Acid spell and Create Water also wreck economies and they're both comparable to Distilled Joy and Elation in spell level.

Runic Guardian, Spellsong Nightingale, and Spellstitched Undead can all use these spells as SLAs and are player creatable.

Heck, Simulacrums of Wizards work just as well, as does just Diplomancing regular Wizards.

Not to memtion Wall of x shenanigans or just hitting up the Plane of Earth for valuable gems etc.


The point being there are just sooooo many ways to break WBL guidelines it seems more useful to agree to a gentleman's agreement rather than banning this or that exploit willy nilly.

Just my 2 cents.

I mean, you'll need clerics for create water or to put some effort in to cast it as a wizard, right? Now, that's not really a big deal if you can get a decanter of endless water (which should be easy enough, by fabricating crafting components for the magic item until you have enough to craft it, then roping the party cleric into making one for you). It shouldn't be too hard to secure the decanter of endless water with a fabricated stone construction, and a nice, water tight stone pit to empty it out into for a reservoir. Now, if you're planning to floor a region with water, this isn't a huge chore, you just keep accumulating water by leaving the decanter pumping until the limits of your containment fail, and with the right kind of structured failure, you wind up with a catastrophic wall of water. If, however, you're trying to be a truly evil jerk, you have a water containment pit, and then a much, much larger reservoir lined with acid resistant stone (or hell, thick glass). You then station a fabricator at the area between the water pit and the to-be-acid container and have them fabricate the water out of the pit and into the acid containment zone, possibly into discretely shaped glass sectionals so that your water to acid minions can set to the task of transforming the water to acid. Follow this up by Fabricating the acid in the discrete sections into the main glass reservoir and you have now multiplied the amount of acid per water from the decanter multiple times, leading to a more rapid, if more tedious, accumulation of your apocalypse waiting to happen. You'll probably also want to control weather to make it cloudy without being stormy, so that the acid isn't getting evaporated by intense sunlight, and so that it's not getting rained out prematurely.

But that's more of a villainous plot, and less of the point of this thread (to use fabricate to make an army of golems possible/viable).

[unseenmage]

...

But that's more of a villainous plot, and less of the point of this thread (to use fabricate to make an army of golems possible/viable).
I only WISH I had a viable monster statblock to use as a template for liquid Golems!

Edit: Oh! Almost forgot, more to the OP's Fabricate for Construct bodies plan...

Hollow or wireframe-esque Construct bodies present a bit of an issue, mainly that the mass of their bodies does not occupy the combat space of their animated form and it can be somewhat nonsensical to calculate their volume in combat space terms when an inert object is clearly not a creature in motion.

To resolve this I suggest using the smallest listed space thed given creature's body could occupy, namely the Squeezing rules.

A given creature's body can be squeezed down, IIRC, two sizes which if your GM allows it can make this strategy MUCH more effective.

[RoboEmperor]

I only WISH I had a viable monster statblock to use as a template for liquid Golems!

Edit: Oh! Almost forgot, more to the OP's Fabricate for Construct bodies plan...

Hollow or wireframe-esque Construct bodies present a bit of an issue, mainly that the mass of their bodies does not occupy the combat space of their animated form and it can be somewhat nonsensical to calculate their volume in combat space terms when an inert object is clearly not a creature in motion.

To resolve this I suggest using the smallest listed space thed given creature's body could occupy, namely the Squeezing rules.

A given creature's body can be squeezed down, IIRC, two sizes which if your GM allows it can make this strategy MUCH more effective.

Squeezing rules is actually very smart! It cuts down on my Wall of Stone spam to create a gargantuan statue for animated objects by half! Brilliant!

[unseenmage]

Squeezing rules is actually very smart! It cuts down on my Wall of Stone spam to create a gargantuan statue for animated objects by half! Brilliant!

Another fun method is using Marvelous Pigments to make Construct bodies. By volume you can make up to a Gargantuan squeezed body, so long as its price is within the gp limit.