Full reset during a dragon siege

[Derjayger]

Hey,

The situation: Three lvl6-PCs and an army of 5000 soldiers plus two giant dwarven ballistae protected a priestress from an ancient white dragon (which has considerable wizard powers). The priestress was trying to complete a ritual which takes 24h to complete. Any disturbance would cause her to restart the process.

The problem: The long rest "resets" made it hard for me as a DM to make progression during the "siege", which took four days until the dragon retreated for good.
As long as the dragon was able to retreat, the battle against him could not wear out him or the PCs by RAW.

Progression through wear:
- The priestress got very tired -> Con-Saves with increasing DC.
- The army had to deal with harsh weather (the dragon would cast control weather), morale and their low HP. There was a progression through deserters and freezing.

No Progression, fresh starts every new attack:
- The dragon attacked, was shot, retreated and came back after 16h = two long rests as if nothing happened. Of course he would come back, he is proud and mighty as f***, 3/4 of the soldiers would run in horror, he killed hundreds of them. (And he would use illusions and trickery as well).
- The PCs defended, survived somehow and fought again after 16h = two long rests as if nothing happened.

The cause IMO: Long Rests = Full reset, and I'm already using DMGs Slow Natural Healing (p.267; you have to use your HD to heal even during a full rest. Abilities recharge as usual).
The one week long rest variant (also DMG) is nothing for my group, because it makes wizards paranoid and stingy with their spells, while other classes can do what they want.

Possible solution: You need a third kind of rest for Slow Natural Healing where you can fill up your used HD. -> One Week Rest to fill them up? Abilities recharge as ususal.

And don't say that D&D is not the right system for this kind of game. It's an army, lead by the players, against a dragon!


What would you do?

[Cl0001]

Well, first off, I'd say it's mean to make the priestess make con saves. If the completion of the task rests on a npc, it should not require the DM to roll well. I'd also try to further define "any disturbance" because if the dragon just shows up for a couple minutes every day then your players are done for. Second, depending on the army composition, the dragon should actually die rather quickly. If they were to all be archers with longbows, one attack and no bonus to Dex, which could only hit on crits, you would expect about 800 damage a round after factoring in crit damage and resistance. Finally, the dragon retreating should be handled differently, as a player I would attempt to track down and follow the dragon, if you're stopping them from doing that then that's a low blow.

[Derjayger]

Good points. Just one thing:



Finally, the dragon retreating should be handled differently, as a player I would attempt to track down and follow the dragon, if you're stopping them from doing that then that's a low blow.

While leaving the NPC priestress alone with the NPC army? Or splitting the group?
How would you track an ancient dragon illusionist with a fly speed of 80 ft. in a mountain range?

But you are right, the dragon should have died very fast (about 300 damage per round using the mob rules, assuming everyone of the 1/4 not-panicked guys can shoot).

My example might be bad, but the general reset-problem and my question remains.

[8wGremlin]

Don't have them long rest... keep up the siege, the dragon would have followers, that he would throw at the castle at the same time.

Have it so that they can only snatch short rests (yes this does favour some classes).
Have it that the PC can sortie out to deal with the disrupting followers.

If they successfully deal with the 3 disrupting forces (3 encounters) , then they can get some rest (a long rest), whilst the troops fight of the others.

Next day they need to defeat another 3 disrupting forces or they will not get their long rest.

You could further extend this to be if they do 4 encounters before the long rest then the next day they only need 2
if 5 then 1 next day, and if they can do 6 encounters then the next day is clear.

this way it feels that hey are making progress, are not being railroaded, and can choose how much they want to extend themselves.

[Malifice]

What would you do?

You're approaching this backwards.

You've set the scene/ provided a hook AND imposed a time constraint (priestess needs 24 hours to complete ritual). That's your starting point for any adventure design. Good.

From there, forget about the priestess and the ritual. The PCs task is to protect her until the ritual is complete. She's a macguffin; and a hook. Nothin more and nothing less.

Now stat out 6-8 [medium-hard] encounters and frame those encounters within those 24 hours. I suggest something along the lines of:

- 2-3 encounters being attackers hitting the keep in waves
- [allow the PCs a short rest]
- the PCs getting tasked to leave the keep to recover macguffin needed for the ritual and facing 2-3 more encounters
- [another short rest]
- the attackers breaching the keeps walls, and the PCs needing to deal with 2-3 more encounters as the ritual comes to a thrilling conclusion - for the final encounter the PCs are squaring off with BBEG in the ritual chamber itself.

The PCs cant long rest (no time). If they attempt to; the attackers breach the walls, the ritual is foiled and the PCs lose. They are forced to fight their way out of the keep area through a secret underground tunnel facing several very hard encounters on the way out. The dragon wins, and the surrounding area is decimated, the PCs followers and church/ NPCs/ employers turn their backs on them, and any other unpleasent consequences you desire.

Bam presto. The perfect textbook 5E adventure.

[Cl0001]

Good points. Just one thing:



While leaving the NPC priestress alone with the NPC army? Or splitting the group?
How would you track an ancient dragon illusionist with a fly speed of 80 ft. in a mountain range?

But you are right, the dragon should have died very fast (about 300 damage per round using the mob rules, assuming everyone of the 1/4 not-panicked guys can shoot).

My example might be bad, but the general reset-problem and my question remains.

I don't think the op mentioned the surrounding environment, and while he did say it had spell casting, most spells cast by the dragon could potentially be counteracted with other spells that the party has access to. Also in my first post I was thinking the npcs and a party of like 50-100 soldiers. I personally wouldn't even use a dragon in the fight. I'd have him be the mastermind and send minions out to fight the army and then have the party clear out some stronger foes.

[imanidiot]

Unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances, I don't see how anyone could relax and rest long enough to get the benefits of a long rest while under any kind of seige. I would flat out deny any long rest umtil the seige is resolved.

If you and your group balk at that I would suggest that you have the dragon actively recruiting humanoid conscripts and adding them to it's force as reinforcements. If they dont actively engage its forces for 4 hours or so it launches a massive attack to breach the walls and interrupt the casting. The PCs will be forced to respond personally and eat up some of their resources. After the dragon knows it has disrupted them it will retreat and regroup bringing in more humanoid troops while the PCs forces slowly dwindle away.

No long rests during seiges.

[Malifice]

No long rests during seiges.

Exactly.

The OP doesnt seem to realise it but he's set up a classic 5E adventuring day with a hook AND a time limit (and consequences for failure)... and then seems unwilling to let it work its magic, or to let the PCs fail.

Hook: The players have to defend a keep while (NPC) completes a ritual to (stop dragon). Ritual will be completed at dawn (in 23 hours; immediately following a long rest so the PCs are at full strength).


Encounter 1: Enemy creatures assault keep. Medium difficulty encounter.
Encounter 2: Enemy creatures assault in wave 2. Hard difficulty encounter.
- [short rest] lull in the battle to patch wounds etc
Encounter 3: PCs are contacted by NPC castellan. The ritual macguffin (special candles? Ritual book?) was captured by the enemy during the previous assaults. The PCs need to sneak out of the castle and recover the macguffin so the ritual can be completed. This leads to another fight with enemy creatures (hard difficulty encounter)
Encounter 4: Enemy special forces (summoned incorporeal undead perhaps) attack the PCs as they return to the keep. Combat encounter 4 (medium difficulty encounter).
- [short rest] the PCs have a chance to rest after recovering the macguffin
Encounter 5: The enemy make a big push to breach the castle. Hard difficulty encounter
Encounter 6: The ritual is nearly completed, but the dragon has breached the ritual chamber! Can the PCs hold off the dragon for 3 rounds while the ritual is being completed (deadly encounter, but the PCs only have to hold the beast off for 3 rounds). Perhaps at the last second the NPC ritual caster falls, leaving it up to the PCs to pick up the ritual book and finish the ritual themselves (Arcana check DC 15 required as an Action) to save the day.


Success = Dragon banished. Failure = dragon wins, surrounding area destroyed, PCs possibly killed or captured.

Done.

[8wGremlin]

Exactly.

The OP doesnt seem to realise it but he's set up a classic 5E adventuring day with a hook AND a time limit (and consequences for failure)... and then seems unwilling to let it work its magic, or to let the PCs fail.

Hook: The players have to defend a keep while (NPC) completes a ritual to (stop dragon). Ritual will be completed at dawn (in 23 hours; immediately following a long rest so the PCs are at full strength).


Encounter 1: Enemy creatures assault keep. Medium difficulty encounter.
Encounter 2: Enemy creatures assault in wave 2. Hard difficulty encounter.
- [short rest] lull in the battle to patch wounds etc
Encounter 3: PCs are contacted by NPC castellan. The ritual macguffin (special candles? Ritual book?) was captured by the enemy during the previous assaults. The PCs need to sneak out of the castle and recover the macguffin so the ritual can be completed. This leads to another fight with enemy creatures (hard difficulty encounter)
Encounter 4: Enemy special forces (summoned incorporeal undead perhaps) attack the PCs as they return to the keep. Combat encounter 4 (medium difficulty encounter).
- [short rest] the PCs have a chance to rest after recovering the macguffin
Encounter 5: The enemy make a big push to breach the castle. Hard difficulty encounter
Encounter 6: The ritual is nearly completed, but the dragon has breached the ritual chamber! Can the PCs hold off the dragon for 3 rounds while the ritual is being completed (deadly encounter, but the PCs only have to hold the beast off for 3 rounds). Perhaps at the last second the NPC ritual caster falls, leaving it up to the PCs to pick up the ritual book and finish the ritual themselves (Arcana check DC 15 required as an Action) to save the day.


Success = Dragon banished. Failure = dragon wins, surrounding area destroyed, PCs possibly killed or captured.

Done.


I really want to play this now!

[Nifft]

You guys are awesome at framing an adventuring day.

I want to help but I've got nothing to add to those two glorious posts.

[Malifice]

You guys are awesome at framing an adventuring day.

I want to help but I've got nothing to add to those two glorious posts.

When you sit down to prep midweek as DM, its something you should turn your mind to.

Insert hook. Time limit the hook (pass/fail). Implement consequences for failure and success for that hook (ensuring player agency). Then place your encounters within that context.

If your PCs can long rest after every encounter, that dramatically changes the difficulty of the encounters (and has a massive impact on class balance, favoring casters and paladins and barbarians, at the expense of warlocks, fighters and monks). 5E's encounters are designed to be but one of many in between long rests.

You should always be able to come up with a 'doom clock' of some kind. Every movie ever made ever has the protagonists racing against the clock (and the bad guys) to [rescue the princess/ stop the ritual/ blow up the death star/ save the world/ defuse the bomb] etc.

Sitting back and allowing all the time in the world, and there never being consequences for choices, PC actions, or for putting things off for later, is boring and terribly unrealistic.