Dark template hide in plain sight

[tedcahill2]

Can someone help me understand the limitations of hide in plain sight as granted by the dark template?

One of my players is a dark changeling, and he was using hips to basically become invisible in combat and sneak around people.

While on the topic, in one scene they were fighting in a narrow corridor, and he hid and moved through an enemy square. Is that legal?

[Fouredged Sword]

It is legal, but he would still have to make the tumble check to pass though a square occupied by an enemy. Failure would indicate he failed to tumble past and would have touched the enemy and been stopped in the square before he entered and would, because the enemy observed him, no longer be hiding. They would then get an AOO.

[Necroticplague]

Can someone help me understand the limitations of hide in plain sight as granted by the dark template? Hide has two components two using it: you can't be observed*, and you need concealment or cover. HiPS gets rid of the 'can't be observed', but you still need either concealment or cover.


One of my players is a dark changeling, and he was using hips to basically become invisible in combat and sneak around people. Assuming he had a really good Hide check, and a source of consistent concealment, that's exactly how it works.


While on the topic, in one scene they were fighting in a narrow corridor, and he hid and moved through an enemy square. Is that legal?

You need Tumble to move through an enemy square, and to keep hidden while moving, you'd also need a Hide and Move Silently vs. Spot and Listen.

[Crake]

There are two versions of the dark template, one in tome of magic and the other in a forgotten realms adventure Cormyr: The tearing of the weave. In the tome of magic version, it simply allows you to hide while being observed, ie: while someone's actively aware of you, and is able to track your movements. It does not however allow you to ignore the need for cover or concealment, so you cannot hide in an empty, well lit corridor, you need at least some fog or darkness to hide in.

The version presented in the adventure module however specifically adds the clause allowing the creature to hide even without cover or concealment, which makes the ability far more powerful, because it does allow a creature to hide in the middle of a well lit room even without anything to hide behind, right in front of another creature's face.


You need Tumble to move through an enemy square, and to keep hidden while moving, you'd also need a Hide and Move Silently vs. Spot and Listen.

Technically, avoiding being seen is the only issue here, so it would just be hide vs spot. Since, by the way the OP described, the enemy is already aware of his existence, being completely undetected isn't necessary, and you get the benefits of attacking from hiding only if you're unseen, not unheard, you can ignore the move silently in the middle of combat, that's only really necessary if you're trying to stealth your way into a place completely undetected.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

From the Dark Creature template:

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect).

From the Hide skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) (emphasis added):

Check
Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.

The Dark Creature template only removes the limitation that you cannot make a Hide check while being observed. It does not change any other portion of the skill whatsoever. That means he must have cover or concealment (relative to his opponents) or his hide check automatically fails. You can't use cover from a creature to hide, as soft cover of any kind does not permit the use of the hide skill. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover) If at any time he no longer has cover or concealment relative to a given opponent, he's no longer hidden from that opponent.

Example 1: He jumps behind a pillar (cover) and rolls a hide check. Someone flanking the party who he didn't have cover from still sees him, he can't hide from them without cover or concealment. Everyone else saw him jump behind that pillar and he can only remain hidden from them if he's able to move out from behind the pillar and still have cover or concealment relative to them.

Example 2: He's sneaking around in the dark and comes within range of an opponent's darkvision. He no longer has concealment relative to that opponent, and they're automatically able to spot him.

Example 3: There's a Darkness spell or a Fog Cloud spell or similar on the room, and everyone has concealment (20% miss chance). Under this circumstance he is able to hide in plain sight and sneak around freely as though he were invisible, but there must be some condition causing him to already be less than 100% detectable to enable this.

[tedcahill2]

Example 1: He jumps behind a pillar (cover) and rolls a hide check. Someone flanking the party who he didn't have cover from still sees him, he can't hide from them without cover or concealment. Everyone else saw him jump behind that pillar and he can only remain hidden from them if he's able to move out from behind the pillar and still have cover or concealment relative to them. But if jumps behind a pillar isn't he out of sight, and can this hide, anyway? Or are you saying he can come out from behind the pillar after making his hide check?


Example 2: He's sneaking around in the dark and comes within range of an opponent's darkvision. He no longer has concealment relative to that opponent, and they're automatically able to spot him. So since an orc can see in the dark they just see him without a spot check?

[Crake]

But if jumps behind a pillar isn't he out of sight, and can this hide, anyway? Or are you saying he can come out from behind the pillar after making his hide check?
So since an orc can see in the dark they just see him without a spot check?

You can be partially behind a pillar such that the pillar provides cover, but not total cover, allowing you to hide while still being able to see and attack your enemies, and yes, if the only thing enabling you to hide was the nonmagical darkness, and you enter a creature's darkvision range, there's nothing providing you concealment toward that creature, and thus you have no means to hide from that creature with tome of magic's dark creature template.