Suppressing vampire mind control [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Link2434

2017-08-20, 11:25 PM

So this is a weird situation: one of our party members has become a vampire servant unbeknownst to us until now. (3.5 edition)
Our cleric wants to cast protection from evil to suppress the mind control effect of the master vampire.
The question is, does that work? Can he use protection from evil to stop the vampiric servant from being controlled by his master?

Douglas

2017-08-20, 11:42 PM

Are you referring to the vampire's Dominate ability, or has the party member actually been turned into a vampire?

ksbsnowowl

2017-08-20, 11:42 PM

Yes, it works... until the protection from evil spell ends.

From the spell itself:

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

So the spell will give the dominated PC a few minutes of self-control, but it doesn't end the domination. The domination effect will resume exerting itself on the PC once the protection spell ends, assuming it has not been ended some other way (note that as a Supernatural ability, a vampire's dominate ability is not able to be dispelled), most likely by getting a second chance at a save, and succeeding.*

*
Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus.

Edit: The below is an important distinction:

Are you referring to the vampire's Dominate ability, or has the party member actually been turned into a vampire?

If he has been turned into a vampire, then a protection spell might work as above, but there is no way to end the effect, other than the Master Vampire:
A) Willing it so
B) Being destroyed

Link2434

2017-08-20, 11:42 PM

Turned into a vampire, sorry forgot to specify

Mordaedil

2017-08-21, 01:03 AM

If he has turned into a vampire, you have to kill the master vampire and then destroy him and cast True Resurrection or something similar to restore him.

Sometimes Resurrection works.

ZamielVanWeber

2017-08-21, 02:07 AM

Since we are talking about the control a vampire had over its creations: protection from [alignment] and similar effects debatably work but Mind Blank and similar effects will not work.

Mr Adventurer

2017-08-21, 03:23 AM

Worth noting that even absent his master's mind control (and I wouldn't allow either Protection from Evil or Mind Blank to suppress it, if I were the DM), he'll still be an Evil undead with an unquenchable thirst for the blood of the living :smallsmile:.

Mordaedil

2017-08-21, 03:59 AM

Yeah, I'm not sure if the control a vampire has over its spawn is magical in nature, it might be literal derivative of their biology.

Crake

2017-08-21, 04:14 AM

Mordaedil

2017-08-21, 05:23 AM

DrKerosene

2017-08-21, 05:23 AM

Emancipated Spawn seems unnecessary for the PC, but would probably be relevant.

Create Spawn is an SU ability, and it is worded in a way that I believe you can temporarily suppress the enslavement of the Vampire PC.

Crake

2017-08-21, 05:31 AM

So protection from evil also hinders a wizard from communicating with his familiar?

is a wizard's link with his familiar a form of mental control?

OttoVonBigby

2017-08-21, 07:36 AM

Emancipated Spawn seems unnecessary for the PC, but would probably be relevant.
Related, and even more relevant, is the sidebar in Libris Mortis about "freed spawn" (not a template or class, but a concept). In essence, if this PC was sufficiently morally upright before being made into a vampire, then there's a chance (basically up to DM fiat) that destroying the vamped-PC's master will allow the vamped-PC to return to its original alignment despite being a vampire.

Fouredged Sword

2017-08-21, 09:17 AM

So protection from evil also hinders a wizard from communicating with his familiar?
A familiar cannot be controlled though the mental link. If you order your familiar to do something it doesn't want to do, it can ignore you, disobey you, or even attack you.

ZamielVanWeber

2017-08-21, 07:58 PM

Fouredged Sword

2017-08-21, 08:04 PM

If it is a mental control, prot from evil should work. If it is not, plug his ears. He wont obey commands he cannot hear.

ZamielVanWeber

2017-08-21, 08:12 PM

If it is a mental control, prot from evil should work. If it is not, plug his ears. He wont obey commands he cannot hear.

He is still slavishly loyal to the vampire and will act in his master's best interests.

Link2434

2017-08-21, 08:47 PM

Thanks guys, your responses are really helpful :)
Even our dungeon master wasn't sure how to handle it though that might be because the cleric trying to cast the spell was a champion debater in high school 😋

Gruftzwerg

2017-08-22, 01:12 AM

The protection from protection from evil is specifically against mental control. A vampire has no mental control over it's spawn, it's a heirarchal control, exerted verbally, no mental link exists like with dominate person, so there's no magic to block. If the vampire were unable to communicate with his spawn, he would have no means of controlling it.

Sry, but I doubt that..

edit: sry, but missed that you where only talking about Protection from Evil. just woke up..^^, sry

This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

1. Effects, don't have to be magical and can be of any type (magical/spell/sla, EX, SU, NA...)

2. Further Mind Blank and its equivalents don't specify that it only works on mental links. The limitation is "mind-affecting spells & effects".

3. "mind-affecting spells & effects" is a common used term, but the problem is, IIRC it was never defined, so default english language has to back us up here.

If I take the points given together, I would even go so far that by RAW: "bluff, diplomacy, gather information & sense motive" would even fall into the immunities, cause imho they are either mind-affecting effects or divination effects. (note on gather information: the immunity is when someone speaks to you directly and ask questions, not when someone else is asked about you!).

ZamielVanWeber

2017-08-22, 01:24 AM

2. Further Mind Blank and its equivalents don't specify that it only works on mental links. The limitation is "mind-affecting spells & effects".

3. "mind-affecting spells & effects" is a common used term, but the problem is, IIRC it was never defined, so default english language has to back us up here.

It was called out a spell descriptor actually and mentioned to have no rules associated with it. In addition even if you were correct basic English does not help as you are using the definition for "mind affecting" not "mind-affecting." "Mind-affecting" is not a recognized term in English.

Gruftzwerg

2017-08-22, 03:05 AM

It was called out a spell descriptor actually and mentioned to have no rules associated with it. In addition even if you were correct basic English does not help as you are using the definition for "mind affecting" not "mind-affecting." "Mind-affecting" is not a recognized term in English.

imho "mind affecting" & "mind-affecting" are both legal ways to use it in English language. Dunno, English is my 3rd language, but at least I don't get any spelling mistake shown by my browser. The problem I have is that the "-" implies a special definition, but there ain't anyone. So there is no other way as to use general english definition. Otherwise the spell descriptor (or when mentioned anywhere else) wouldn't make any sense without explanation.

Yeah it is used also (not sole) as spell descriptor.

Imho, unless the specific ability/item/spell doesn't specify it as either "mind-affecting" or not, it's up to the DM how he will read/rule it.

ZamielVanWeber

2017-08-22, 03:25 AM

imho "mind affecting" & "mind-affecting" are both legal ways to use it in English language.
They are not. One is a valid English phrase and one is a non-existant word. Just because autocorrect fails to notice the difference does not mean there is one.

The problem I have is that the "-" implies a special definition, but there ain't anyone. So there is no other way as to use general english definition. Otherwise the spell descriptor (or when mentioned anywhere else) wouldn't make any sense without explanation.
If there is no way to use a general English definition that does not mean you can make one up and declare it to be a such for the purposes of technical discussion and make conjecture.

Yeah it is used also (not sole) as spell descriptor.
Not used, is. Other things may also use it but it is pointed out to tell you how it interacts with things.

mho, unless the specific ability/item/spell doesn't specify it as either "mind-affecting" or not, it's up to the DM how he will read/rule it.
If it does not say mind-affecting it is not mind-affecting. That is how rules generally work.

All this aside the control a vampire has over their creations is explicitly a function of the personality of the spawn, so unless your version of Mind Blank makes you immune to your own personality it will not work.

Mordaedil

2017-08-22, 05:27 AM

"Mind-affecting" is a joined word, denoted by the hyphen in the middle.

A hard working man is a working man who is tough.
A hard-working man is a man who works hard.

Similarly,

A mind affecting spell is a mental spell that affects.
A mind-affecting spell is a spell that affects minds.

Gruftzwerg

2017-08-22, 12:24 PM

A mind-affecting spell is a spell that affects minds.

Which equals to "A mind-affecting effect is an effect that affects minds."
Imho bluff & diplomacy are effects that affect your/targets mind. And gather information & sense motive would fall into divination effects.

personality of the spawn
Imho personality is part of your mind = it's a mind-affecting ability. The spawn gets its personality changed and that should be enough to count as mind-affecting effect.

KarlMarx

2017-08-22, 01:33 PM

Working from the LM material, it doesn't seem likely to me that Protection from Evil would work. The spell suppresses 'mind-affecting' effects when it comes to control, which I would interpret as those that clearly supersede a target's free will via magically affecting their mind. However, the way that spawn are set up, it seems to me ambiguous as to whether they have free will--they either don't and merely work as intelligent extensions of their master's will (much like a golem that can execute general orders) or have a quasi-free will that is dominated by a very powerful loyalty to their master.

Which, in turn, brings me to the approach I find most likely to work. Protection from Evil alone has too many complications when used to eliminate such influence, and I don't think most DMs would rule it as working, at least with the LM material. However, if Calm Emotions is first cast on the spawn, it is possible that that suppresses the supernatural/extraordinary loyalty to their master, enabling Protection from Evil to work more effectively. I can't guarantee that this approach would work either, but to me it seems likely that it wouldn't. And, if it doesn't, it is a fair in-game thinking process to infer that it's free will as a party member has been extinguished, and thus that the unholy thing can be killed and hopefully raised. If not, well, maybe it's time to roll up a new PC.

Graypairofsocks

2017-08-22, 01:55 PM

Graypairofsocks

2017-08-22, 02:04 PM

The MM is at least ambiguous about the nature of the control. Libris Mortis makes it clear that that it is not mental control. If you do not have access to LM I can at least see some argument although I would not agree with that stance.

Where does libris mortis mention that?

ZamielVanWeber

2017-08-22, 02:06 PM

Where does libris mortis mention that?

I would need to dig up my copy to give you a better citation but early in the book where it is talking about undead psychology it talks about why spawn obey the beings that curse them to undeath.

Mordaedil

2017-08-23, 01:05 AM

Which equals to "A mind-affecting effect is an effect that affects minds."
Imho bluff & diplomacy are effects that affect your/targets mind. And gather information & sense motive would fall into divination effects.
Kind of. It really depends on how your DM wants to call it, because you can argue that they aren't "effects", they are "skills".

Crake

2017-08-23, 01:12 AM

I would need to dig up my copy to give you a better citation but early in the book where it is talking about undead psychology it talks about why spawn obey the beings that curse them to undeath.

Page 13, under Spawn, subheading: Affection:

Affection
Calling any portion of the bond between spawn and creator “affection” may be going too far, but spawn are definitely slavish in their attention to every detail of their creators’ wishes. Spawn never hesitate to take any action commanded by their creators, even if that action leads to certain destruction.
However, this “affection” doesn’t necessarily run both ways. For the most part, spawn creators care little for the fate of those they have created, except so far as it serves a larger plan or generates a body of useful servants. Intelligent undead view their spawn in much the same manner as they view the mindless undead in their employ—expendable.
Some undead that retain corporeal bodes and can create spawn (most notably vampires) retain a strong tie to the associations of their life. As such, they may continue to nurture real affection for individuals still living. Tortured by the thought of losing contact with a friend or loved one, the undead may seek out that individual and, out of love, may attempt to turn its beloved into a spawn. If the attempt is successful, the loved one joins the ranks of the undead, but the bond between the two of them is now artifi cially enforced by the nature of the creation. The “loved one” now exists in a horrible position of compulsory affection.

Gruftzwerg

2017-08-23, 01:41 AM

Kind of. It really depends on how your DM wants to call it, because you can argue that they aren't "effects", they are "skills".

I would argue that they are "skills" who produce effects. I mean, what is an effect in terms of 3.5? The result of using an ability and it doesn't matter where it comes from (class abilities, skills, combat, spells, feats, items...)

Crake

2017-08-23, 04:46 AM

I would argue that they are "skills" who produce effects. I mean, what is an effect in terms of 3.5? The result of using an ability and it doesn't matter where it comes from (class abilities, skills, combat, spells, feats, items...)

This whole argument is pointless, because a) undead are already immune to mind affecting effects by their very nature so mind blank wouldn't help in that regard anyway, and the control over a spawn that an undead has is never anywhere called out as being mind-affecting. If it were, it would be a moot ability, because undead are already immune to mind affecting anyway, so no spawn would ever be under it's master's control, which is very clearly not how it works.

Mind-Affecting is a mechanical descriptor that interacts with the rules. Regardless of what you interpret as the mind, and what you believe can affect it, if something's not called out as mind affecting, it's not mind affecting.

Otherwise we get into absolutely silly territory like: I have mind blank, i'm immune to mind affecting effects. A fireball surprised me, scaring me and making me jump. Because it surprised and scared me, it changed my state of mind. Because it changed my state of mind, it affected my mind. Thus fireball is mind affecting. Thus I am immune to fireball because of mind blank.

Gruftzwerg

2017-08-23, 05:09 AM

My point wasn't about being a Spawn, it was about the process/effect of becoming a Spawn. That process can be imho considered as "mind-affecting", since it's a change in personality/character/behavior. So if you would have some kind of Mind Blank while turning into a Spawn, would you still be obeying/worshiping him? Imho MB would prevent that.

edit:
to get to the fireball example. MB would prevent you from being scared, not from taking damage. Which translates to a Spawn with free will in our scenario imho.

Fouredged Sword

2017-08-23, 07:19 AM

I would argue that mind blank or POE would fail to suppress the effect (besides all the other solid arguements) due to the simple fact that the effect has already come and gone leaving permanent changes. It is possible that a spawn turned within the area of a circle of protection would temporarily retain their original mind, once their mind has been altered there is no ongoing effect needed to maintain the effect. Their mind is changed more in the realm of mindrape than dominate. An instantaneous effect alters them forever. Gaining immunity to fire does not retroactively remove damage done by a fireball.

Mordaedil

2017-08-23, 07:31 AM

I would argue that they are "skills" who produce effects. I mean, what is an effect in terms of 3.5? The result of using an ability and it doesn't matter where it comes from (class abilities, skills, combat, spells, feats, items...)

Actually, effects are defined as being produced by supernatural, extraordinary or spell-like abilities. Some class abilities fall under these, but most combat actions, feats and skills fall under "mundane" use.

Gruftzwerg

2017-08-23, 12:24 PM

Actually, effects are defined as being produced by supernatural, extraordinary or spell-like abilities. Some class abilities fall under these, but most combat actions, feats and skills fall under "mundane" use.

Can you point me to where it stands? Would like to read it myself. Was looking for a definition and couldn't find any so far. It's missing in the glossary...

Mordaedil

2017-08-24, 01:10 AM

Can you point me to where it stands? Would like to read it myself. Was looking for a definition and couldn't find any so far. It's missing in the glossary...

Look how effect keeps appearing here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalAbilities) Cross-reference with feats and skills where "effect" is completely abscent.

Gruftzwerg

2017-08-24, 03:59 AM

Look how effect keeps appearing here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalAbilities) Cross-reference with feats and skills where "effect" is completely abscent.

Just the appearance in some rule text doesn't make a clear definition.
It needs to be clearly visible defined. Be it as title of a page/paragraph/table or bold written with some explanation text behind (sometimes including fluff text). But that isn't the chase here. So still undefined unless someone can prove the opposite.

___________

and to give some examples where "skills" can clearly produce effects.

Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htmhttp://) can produce effects on enemies.

Diplomacy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) can change in "effectiveness" depending on the rolls. There needs to be an effect to have several degrees of effectiveness.

I'm still convinced that skills can produce effects and that the word "effect" hasn't any special 3.5 meaning/definition.

Mordaedil

2017-08-24, 07:26 AM

Okay dude, you play your version of D&D, where magical compulsions blocks love and diplomacy, and I'll play mine where that rubbish doesn't happen.

Fouredged Sword

2017-08-24, 08:30 AM

posted to the wrong thread, disregard.

lbuttitta

2017-08-25, 06:00 AM

...
3. "mind-affecting spells & effects" is a common used term, but the problem is, IIRC it was never defined, so default english language has to back us up here.

If I take the points given together, I would even go so far that by RAW: "bluff, diplomacy, gather information & sense motive" would even fall into the immunities, cause imho they are either mind-affecting effects or divination effects. (note on gather information: the immunity is when someone speaks to you directly and ask questions, not when someone else is asked about you!).

Doesn't a "mind-affecting" spell mean one that has the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor? If so, then Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Sense Motive are not described as being Mind-Affecting, and so are not blocked.