[Spoiler]Future of Azure City

[Axl_Rose]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html

So should we expect the splash page for 500 to be a mass of armies from one of the Nobles as they prepare to take Azure City? Then again we've had enough war for one story arc as it is

[Spiryt]

Hobgoblins will raise their younglings among the ruins.

You know, healthy seashore air e.c. :smallbiggrin:

[bluish_wolf]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html

So should we expect the splash page for 500 to be a mass of armies from one of the Nobles as they prepare to take Azure City? Then again we've had enough war for one story arc as it is

They will probably wait until Xykon and his army have already left. Then it won't be important to the storyline.

[RAGE KING!]

damn good point.

[David Argall]

The lich and his troops will leave for the next gate, possibly a strip or two ahead or behind the OOTS doing the same. The humans, led by Hinjo, will take possession of the wreakage.

[HomerHT]

SoD Spoilers:

Redcloak's dream is a new age for goblins where they actually have true cities and good land. What better place to begin than renovating Azure City?

[Tirian]

SoD Spoilers:

Redcloak's dream is a new age for goblins where they actually have true cities and good land. What better place to begin than renovating Azure City?


Exactly.

Plus Xykon is hardly going to have the patience to travel halfway around the world limited to the speed of tens of thousands of marching hobgoblins. And there's no reason to suspect that such a force would be helpful in overcoming whatever challenges await them at Girard's Gate. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a party of four leaving Azure City.

[factotum]

I don't think the nobles will retake the city. While we know their forces would have made a significant difference to the battle, I'm not so sure they'd be sufficient to take the city, even in its slightly battered state.

[Lamech]

The city has suffered damage, but with the new zombies Redcloak will have even more troops now. Therefore I'm assuming the nobles won't be able to take the city.
Although I think Xykon might go scouting off on his own to find out what defenses are on the next gate, while Redcloak repairs Azure city.

[PlasticSoldier]

Yeah the only wayn they could attack would be an amphib landing and as soon as you sunk one of those boats the 40 men in it would drown, so you'd have to get an entire fleet to land and unpack while being disentegrated and then you'd have troubles getting off your boats and you'd then have to charge a now unorganized mob at a wall of spears. Therefore they'd fail unless the plot dictates.

[Kish]

Exactly.

Plus Xykon is hardly going to have the patience to travel halfway around the world limited to the speed of tens of thousands of marching hobgoblins. And there's no reason to suspect that such a force would be helpful in overcoming whatever challenges await them at Girard's Gate. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a party of four leaving Azure City.
Start of Darkness
Oh I would. Xykon will never let Redcloak forget what he established in Start of Darkness. If he leaves the hobgoblins behind, it will be because they're not only dead but broken beyond usefulness.

[Magioth]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

His gate is in a desert surronded by illusions, xykon will need expendable monsters to work out the illusions etc. maybe where redcloak turns on him

[David Argall]

The city has suffered damage, but with the new zombies Redcloak will have even more troops now. Therefore I'm assuming the nobles won't be able to take the city.
Although I think Xykon might go scouting off on his own to find out what defenses are on the next gate, while Redcloak repairs Azure city.

Xykon is the boss. When he leaves the city, he will take Redcloak, and the entire army, with him.

If the nobles have enough troops to take the city, they would not have left the city. Flight was only a reasonable strategy if their numbers were marginal to the defense. If they had even 5000 troops, they would assume they could beat back this attack and not lose their homes and other possessions. So now they are under 5000 facing 20,000, and without the benefit of a wall. Not a chance of a successful attack.
Their stated strategy is to wait until the hobgoblins leave and pick up the pieces.

Which produces the likely scenario.
Lich offers to trade city for ships. Nobles agree and dock ships. Lich then slaughters nobles and takes ships, departing city with his arms and heading for the next gate. Party either has already left or now follows.

[PlasticSoldier]

The nobles didn't because they couldn't win they left because they wanted to gain power by negotiating with XYkon or usurping the king or something similar and when that failed they decided to abandon and then Daimyo came up with a plan to take back the city or something.

[factotum]

I would agree with that. The nobles didn't leave because they thought the defence was hopeless--in fact, Daimyo Kubota seems to have come up with a plan to let Hinjo and the Sapphire Guard die defending the city, then retake it and put himself in as top dog. (The ninjas who attacked Hinjo on the city wall said as much). I'm assuming Kubota isn't a complete idiot, so he must think he has enough forces to retake the city even without all the soldiers he just left to die in the defence.

[David Argall]

These ideas do not compute. Kubota has less than 10,000 troops or he would already be the lord. He also would not even worry about the attack on the city if the defensive forces were above 15,000, which easily should turn away 30,000 attackers who have to get over a wall. So he has less than 5000 troops.
So Kubota is now heavily outnumbered by 20,000 hobgoblins. An attack to drive off the hobs is just not a sensible option.

What Kubota has in mind seems to be that he expects the hobgoblins to leave on their own. He can then land his troops and "chase" the "fleeing" enemy. Having "defeated" them, he claims the rulership. Those questioning this fraud are executed as traitors. For this idea, Kubota only needs about 1000 troops.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

These ideas do not compute. Kubota has less than 10,000 troops or he would already be the lord. He also would not even worry about the attack on the city if the defensive forces were above 15,000, which easily should turn away 30,000 attackers who have to get over a wall. So he has less than 5000 troops.
So Kubota is now heavily outnumbered by 20,000 hobgoblins. An attack to drive off the hobs is just not a sensible option.

What Kubota has in mind seems to be that he expects the hobgoblins to leave on their own. He can then land his troops and "chase" the "fleeing" enemy. Having "defeated" them, he claims the rulership. Those questioning this fraud are executed as traitors. For this idea, Kubota only needs about 1000 troops.
But what's going to happen when they don't leave? To me, it looks as though Team Evil is staying for a while. Redcloak wants to research the gates for now. Unless Kubota is planning on actual combat, he is going to be in trouble here.

[David Argall]

But what's going to happen when they don't leave? To me, it looks as though Team Evil is staying for a while. Redcloak wants to research the gates for now. Unless Kubota is planning on actual combat, he is going to be in trouble here.

Kubota has no major reason to think the hobs will be sticking around. Everything he can see classifies this as a large-scale raid. He is not aware of Redcloak's ideas of course, but the lich is the boss here, and he is intending to move on to the next gate, and take Redcloak, etc with him. Kubota would be in trouble if the hobs stuck around, but the odds are they won't.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Kubota has no major reason to think the hobs will be sticking around. Everything he can see classifies this as a large-scale raid. He is not aware of Redcloak's ideas of course, but the lich is the boss here, and he is intending to move on to the next gate, and take Redcloak, etc with him. Kubota would be in trouble if the hobs stuck around, but the odds are they won't.

Yeah, but the thing is, they're not leaving anytime soon. Azure City belongs to Team Evil now, and they plan on defending it. Redcloak will make the call when to leave. So unless Kubota is willing to wait it out for a few months, maybe more, I don't know what he can do about the hobs.

[David Argall]

Where are you getting the idea that Redcloud is anything other than the lich's slave? The goblin can complain and beg if he wants, but Xykon is the boss. I hear that SoD settles the point quite convincingly, but just reading the comic, we see time and again that Redcloud plays the role of abused underling who must put up with his incompetent boss.
If Xykon says they are leaving, they are leaving, and that is that.

[factotum]

However:


While Xykon is unquestionably the top dog, Redcloak CAN get him to listen to reason. He sometimes has to pull tricks to do it (e.g. getting the hobgoblin to throw a cream pie full of acid beetles into the other one's face), but so long as Xykon doesn't get too bored just sitting around in the ruins, Redcloak should be able to persuade him to stay.

[Yeril]

Consider into your calculations that its not just Lord Kabuta and his 5000 troops, its about a dozen other lords with a dozen other ships with a dozen other small armys of 5000.

[David Argall]

Consider into your calculations that its not just Lord Kabuta and his 5000 troops, its about a dozen other lords with a dozen other ships with a dozen other small armys of 5000.

No, it is 5000 total of all nobles, maximum. Even at 3-1 odds, the defender of a siege has the advantage. There is that nasty wall to get over and the defenders kill you in large numbers as you try. Recall that the hobs made a ramp of bodies at the breach, and Redcloud was assuming those attacking the unbreached wall [presumably as a diversion] would nearly all die. So if the defenders had another 5000 troops, the siege would have been practically impossible, and when we start talking about several groups of
5000, laughable.

[Spiryt]

Xykon is the boss. When he leaves the city, he will take Redcloak, and the entire army, with him.

If the nobles have enough troops to take the city, they would not have left the city. Flight was only a reasonable strategy if their numbers were marginal to the defense. If they had even 5000 troops, they would assume they could beat back this attack and not lose their homes and other possessions. So now they are under 5000 facing 20,000, and without the benefit of a wall. Not a chance of a successful attack.
Their stated strategy is to wait until the hobgoblins leave and pick up the pieces.

Which produces the likely scenario.
Lich offers to trade city for ships. Nobles agree and dock ships. Lich then slaughters nobles and takes ships, departing city with his arms and heading for the next gate. Party either has already left or now follows.

Guys, David is 100% right. Nobles have their own personal armies, bodyguards e.c. , which they can, as we see, quickly board on personal boats!

Kubota in 414 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html):

"My samurai and man-at-arms will join me on my ship(no s here). And he is big fish, other nobles are most probably not so rich/influential.

And of course, if they could retake the city now, why should they leave it earlier? This would be an absurd.

They can have about 800 -1000 trops. Tops.

[Charles Phipps]

I think it'll be funny if it does become Goblintown.

;-)

Then it somehow gets burned to the ground with every Goblin in it.

The central message of OOTS is no one, good or evil, can be happy for very long.

[Kish]

The central message of OOTS is no one, good or evil, can be happy for very long.
...Holy crap.

That's one thing I never expected to see anyone say the central message of OotS is.