A martial arts style for Dodging

[ExLibrisMortis]

Dragon Magazine #303 has an article on martial arts styles, starting on page 54. A number of core and iconic races have developed the ability to get some minor benefit if they take a large selection of bad feats (the styles are not race-limited, however). Per the article, "these benefits mildly improve the character, granting no more power than a feat would--often less". Elves, for example, like to get +4 on Concentration checks to cast defensively when using a longsword, requiring only Dodge, Mobility, Combat Casting, 6 ranks in Concentration, and 6 ranks in Perform (ballad) and Perform (dance). That's totally sweet, right?


Now, humans, being the weak and unappreciated race they are, cooked up this style:

Prerequisites: Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, 6 ranks of Tumble.
Benefit: When unarmed and fighting defensively, you may designate a number of extra creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier as targets of the Dodge feat.
(N.B. I'm ruling that 'unarmed' means you're not holding a weapon. With IUS, you are never truly 'unarmed'.)

WIS to Dodge targets, I haven't seen that one before. I wonder if it can be used for anything?


Well, there are some things you can do to your Dodge target:
With Midnight DodgeMoI, 5 essentia, and Improved Essentia Capcity, you can get a +5 dodge bonus. Probably not totally worth it, but if you're an incarnate anyway...
You can negate Power Attack with Elusive TargetCW. Diverting Defense, the second part of Elusive Target, becomes great fun when everyone flanking you is suddenly hitting one another. Requires Mobility, which is not bad, given the next trick...
...which is Word Given FormToM, the infamous truenaming martial art. With just 12 ranks Tumble and Truespeak, and the addition of Spring Attack, you gain total concealment from your Dodge target.
Defensive ThrowCW allows you to trip any Dodge target who misses you with an AoO. Requires Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip.
Combat DefensePHBII, a combat form feat, allows you to switch the target of your Dodge feat as an immediate action. If you have three or more combat form feats, you get an extra +1 dodge bonus against them as well. Requires Combat Focus, so that's one more feat to get three.
Melee EvasionPHBII allows you to negate one attack made by the target of your Dodge feat while fighting defensively--a very natural fit, with no additional prerequisites. Sadly, it requires an immediate action to use, and only replaces your (touch) AC with 1d20 + bab.
Funnily enough, Pounce helps getting those full attacks, which you need to fight defensively.
Active Shield DefensePHBII negates the -4 penalty on AoOs when fighting defensively with a shield. Shields aren't weapons, right? Requires Shield Specialization.


Now, I'm sure I missed a bunch of things--for one, I can't remember the other twenty-odd Dragon Magazines I read last night--so I'm hoping you guys can come up with some more things to do with this funny martial arts style. Any (low-feat) ways to improve defensive fighting are great, too. Get at it!

[BWR]

If you don't mind pathfinder you have Crane Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-style-combat-style/) and Crane Wing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-wing-combat/) and Crane Riposte (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-riposte-combat/).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Titan Fighting (Races of Stone): Instead of +1 AC, you get +4 from Dodge if the foe is larger than you (or more...if there's a race w/ more than +4 AC vs. giants). Best w/ Whisper Gnome. You need to be human for the build linchpin, but...I'm sure there's some way to qualify for both, somehow...

Great Throw (Oriental Adventures): Anyone you trip you can throw to the ground anywhere else w/in reach and deal unarmed damage. Best combined w/ lots of size and reach and used w/ Defensive Throw.

Also, something my group discovered was this wording: "During your action, you designate an opponent..." for Dodge. Which means you can technically change Dodge targets on any action you get, so any immediate action you take would let you also change targets. So, take any counter maneuver from ToB like Wall of Blades and use that. If you were taking ToB class levels anyway, saves you feats on the Combat Defense tree.

[Thurbane]

Not very optimal, but the UA rules for Monk Variant: Fighting Styles has Cobra Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Mantis Mercenary, which is human only anyways, is a 5 level PrC that gives you int or wisdom on top of your dodge feat. That can get your AC high quickly.

[Thurbane]

Circle Student feat gives an additional +1 dodge bonus and +1 to hit against the target(s) of your Dodge feat.
Dancing with Shadows tactical feat can give boosts to Will saves and attack rolls when using Combat Expertise.
Drunken Master PrC Swaying Waist ability replaces your bonus from the Dodge feat with a +2 bonus, but functions like it "in all other ways".
Quick Staff feat increases the dodge bonus from Combat Expertise by +2.
Shou Disciple PrC gets a higher dodge bonus (up to +3) that replaces the standard +1 from the feat.
War Devotion feat increases your dodge bonus for fighting defensively.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you don't mind pathfinder you have Crane Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-style-combat-style/) and Crane Wing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-wing-combat/) andCrane Riposte (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-riposte-combat/).
Hmm, nice feats, worth using in a 3.PF build, I think. But every build is already going to be incredibly feat-starved :smalltongue:.


Titan Fighting (Races of Stone): Instead of +1 AC, you get +4 from Dodge if the foe is larger than you (or more...if there's a race w/ more than +4 AC vs. giants). Best w/ Whisper Gnome. You need to be human for the build linchpin, but...I'm sure there's some way to qualify for both, somehow...

Great Throw (Oriental Adventures): Anyone you trip you can throw to the ground anywhere else w/in reach and deal unarmed damage. Best combined w/ lots of size and reach and used w/ Defensive Throw.

Also, something my group discovered was this wording: "During your action, you designate an opponent..." for Dodge. Which means you can technically change Dodge targets on any action you get, so any immediate action you take would let you also change targets. So, take any counter maneuver from ToB like Wall of Blades and use that. If you were taking ToB class levels anyway, saves you feats on the Combat Defense tree.
You don't need to be human to learn Might of the Hand, it's just a human tradition. A gnome can totally learn. Stoneblessed can grant anyone a +4 dodge bonus versus giant attacks, as well.

Great Throw makes me think of Elusive Target. Whenever you trip your opponent, you deliberately set them up in a flanking position. When they try to take advantage, you make them hit their ally :smallbiggrin:.

Good catch on Dodge, Combat Defense was already pretty tenuous, but that just makes it bad (and a bit stupid).


Not very optimal, but the UA rules for Monk Variant: Fighting Styles has Cobra Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike).
Yeah, I was assuming you'd qualify with either Cobra Strike or Passive Way monk (Expertise/Trip). You can bypass the int requirement for Expertise with PW monk.


Mantis Mercenary, which is human only anyways, is a 5 level PrC that gives you int or wisdom on top of your dodge feat. That can get your AC high quickly.
Now that is nice. It stacks, it scales, it even works with Kung Fu Genius, which is really nice. (yeah right, like we have any feats to spare!)



Circle Student feat gives an additional +1 dodge bonus and +1 to hit against the target(s) of your Dodge feat.
Dancing with Shadows tactical feat can give boosts to Will saves and attack rolls when using Combat Expertise.
Drunken Master PrC Swaying Waist ability replaces your bonus from the Dodge feat with a +2 bonus, but functions like it "in all other ways".
Quick Staff feat increases the dodge bonus from Combat Expertise by +2.
Shou Disciple PrC gets a higher dodge bonus (up to +3) that replaces the standard +1 from the feat.
War Devotion feat increases your dodge bonus for fighting defensively.

Circle Student is great, especially because it stacks with Titan Fighting/Midnight Dodge, rather than replacing it.
Dancing with Shadows combines with War Devotion (costs 3 turn attempts to use! wow) and other effects that improve defensive fighting, because the attack bonus depends on your dodge bonus. The will save is icing. Nice!
Swaying Waist is actually a separate Dodge-like ability, and apparently it doesn't stack (in the sample character writeup, that line is added).
I looked at Quick Staff, but it's incompatible with Might of the Hand, which requires unarmed and fighting defensively :smallfrown:.
Shou Disciple is a great one, but it replaces the default dodge bonus, meaning you can't stack it with Titan Fighting/Midnight Dodge.


Right now, the highest (practical-ish) Dodge bonus looks to be a high-wisdom human monk 2/fighter 2/Stoneblessed 2/Mantis Mercenary 5 with Titan Fighting and Circle Student, for 1 + WIS Dodge targets and a bonus of 5 + WIS against targets at least one size category larger. If you houserule that Shou Disciple stacks, that'd increase the bonus to 8 + WIS, and covers two feats. Shiba Protector would be a nice dip at that point, but it requires more damn feats. What's with the feats, Wizards? At least Iron Will can be bought. Oh, and we also need Truename Training to get Word Given Form.


Realistically, this'll require a gestalt build to pull off all the bonus feats, but I can see the awesome now :smallbiggrin:. (just remember to avoid spellcasters and ranged attackers)

Walking around the battlefield with +15 Dodge bonus and total concealment from everyone, throwing them into flanking positions and making them hit one another... actually, can you flank a creature you can't see? You can't attack a creature with total concealment from you, or take AoOs, and you can't flank a creature you don't threaten. That's a shame. Ah well, at least you'll be invulnerable in melee.

[Psyren]

Flowing Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/flowing-monk/) gets a lot of what you're trying to do innately without spending additional feats. It also gets relevant bonus feats. Finally, if you use PF dodge instead of 3.5, you don't need to designate additional targets (it applies to everyone), and you can just base Midnight Dodge on that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Flowing Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/flowing-monk/) gets a lot of what you're trying to do innately without spending additional feats. It also gets relevant bonus feats. Finally, if you use PF dodge instead of 3.5, you don't need to designate additional targets (it applies to everyone), and you can just base Midnight Dodge on that.
3.5 has some Dodge replacers that apply to everyone (Expeditious Dodge, Desert Wind Dodge), but they don't play nice with Elusive Target/Word Given Form, which require targets, that's why Might of the Hand is relevant. Either of those would be good with Mantis Mercenary, though.

Flowing Monk is a nice fit, and much less involved than the 3.5 equivalent.

[SirNibbles]

Unfortunately, it feels like most things are just bonuses to AC, which has better ways of being boosted than small bonuses to Dodge. The next big problem is the stat requirements of all the prereq feats.

13 DEX
Dodge
Deflect Arrows

13 INT
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm

STR 13
Power Attack

32 point buy
Str 7
Dex 17
Con 7
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 7


Monk 2 (Overwhelming Attack) gets Power Attack as a 1st level bonus feat. We take Dodge as our human bonus feat and Combat Reflexes at first level. At second level, we abandon the fighting style to take Deflect Arrows.

The following classes will increase our AC further:
Mantis Mercenary 5 (+WIS vs Dodge target(s))
Ninja of the Crescent Moon 1 (+WIS and +DEX to AC, debatably)

Fighter 4 gives us 3 feats (plus the two feats we get at 3 and 6) and the BAB needed to take Mantis Mercenary.
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm
Quick Draw

Weapon Focus (Kama)
Might of the Hand

Mantis Mercenary at 7th level, Ninja of the Crescent Moon at 8th, and here's how it's looking:
6 BAB
2x Dex to AC (18 Dex)
2x Wis to AC (19 Wis)
4 Dodge targets (+1 AC vs targets)
+5 AC when using maximum Combat Expertise

That's at least 31 AC (32 vs Dodge targets).

Jumping ahead to 12th level, we have Mantis Mercenary 5 now, plus the feats Circle Student and Circle Master, for an extra +1 to AC for our Dodge feat plus anyone we threaten.
10 BAB
2x Dex to AC (18 Dex)
2x Wis to AC (20 Wis)
5 Dodge Targets (+7 AC vs targets)
+1 AC against enemies you threaten
+5 AC when using maximum Combat Expertise

That's 33 AC, 34 vs enemies you threaten, and 40-41 vs Dodge targets (only 31 for non-dodge targets outside of your range).

I guess you could use items too. Items are nice.

Once you hit epic levels, the Deflect Arrows line of feats gets nice, allowing you to force enemies to melee you. Ninja of the Crescent Moon 2 gives you Improved Evasion, so you're reasonably safe from blasters, immune to any ranged attack, and you have a massive AC bonus against anyone who gets near you. In a low-op game, it could work. You still can't do much if a caster throws a save-or-die at you, or even a no-save, just die.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Unfortunately, it feels like most things are just bonuses to AC, which has better ways of being boosted than small bonuses to Dodge. The next big problem is the stat requirements of all the prereq feats.

[...]

Once you hit epic levels, the Deflect Arrows line of feats gets nice, allowing you to force enemies to melee you. Ninja of the Crescent Moon 2 gives you Improved Evasion, so you're reasonably safe from blasters, immune to any ranged attack, and you have a massive AC bonus against anyone who gets near you. In a low-op game, it could work. You still can't do much if a caster throws a save-or-die at you, or even a no-save, just die.
Yeah, the real draw of getting Dodge targets is getting Elusive Target and Word Given Form against everyone. It's pseudo-invisibility and near-immunity to melee attacks. Total concealment helps a bit against some spells, too.

I like your build, I think there's a lot of items that improve CE/defensive fighting that would put that AC into the 50s. You'd be less than useful as primary melee (unavoidable with all these prerequisites), but fairly competent as distraction :smalltongue:.

[ShurikVch]

Since the Combat Expertise is prerequisite, how about the Invisible Eye (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#invisibleEye) Fighting Style, and Superior Expertise feat (removes "up to +5" restriction)?

Swashbuckler gets Dodge-like CF (which is independent of Dodge feat, but may stack)

Feats:
Deceptive Dodge (Dragon Compendium) - one more way to make enemy hit another enemies
Defensive Metered Foot (Dragon #337) - enemy's missing attacks give you +1 dodge to AC (up to +5; to the end of the turn; independent of Dodge feat)
Favored Dodge (Dragon #335) - Favored Enemy bonus to Dodge feat
Mighty are Fallen (Dragon Compendium) and Sidestep Charge (Expanded Psionics Handbook) - +4 AC vs. Power Attack and charge attacks (thus, +8 total vs. PA charge)
Nimble Deflections (Dragon #335) - if you using 2-handed weapon and Dodge feat, you will get +2 shield bonus to AC
Opportunistic Tactician (Dragon #340) - after your AoO, you may make free 5' Step (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#take5FootStep) (in addition to standard 1/turn 5' Step)

Temerad fighting style (Dragon #309), Temerad Mastery I - your Dodge bonus increased to +2, and can be split on two targets (Note: TM I is not a feat - you get it automatically when fit the prerequisites - Dex 15, Dodge, IUS, Mobility, and Spring Attack.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Since the Combat Expertise is prerequisite, how about the Invisible Eye (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#invisibleEye) Fighting Style, and Superior Expertise feat (removes "up to +5" restriction)?

Swashbuckler gets Dodge-like CF (which is independent of Dodge feat, but may stack)

Feats:
Deceptive Dodge (Dragon Compendium) - one more way to make enemy hit another enemies
Defensive Metered Foot (Dragon #337) - enemy's missing attacks give you +1 dodge to AC (up to +5; to the end of the turn; independent of Dodge feat)
Favored Dodge (Dragon #335) - Favored Enemy bonus to Dodge feat
Mighty are Fallen (Dragon Compendium) and Sidestep Charge (Expanded Psionics Handbook) - +4 AC vs. Power Attack and charge attacks (thus, +8 total vs. PA charge)
Nimble Deflections (Dragon #335) - if you using 2-handed weapon and Dodge feat, you will get +2 shield bonus to AC
Opportunistic Tactician (Dragon #340) - after your AoO, you may make free 5' Step (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#take5FootStep) (in addition to standard 1/turn 5' Step)

Temerad fighting style (Dragon #309), Temerad Mastery I - your Dodge bonus increased to +2, and can be split on two targets (Note: TM I is not a feat - you get it automatically when fit the prerequisites - Dex 15, Dodge, IUS, Mobility, and Spring Attack.)
Qualifying for Temerad Mastery I is almost guaranteed, since we need Spring Attack for Word Given Form anyway. Very nice find, we can use free bonuses in this feat-starved environment.

Invisible Eye requires you to take six levels of monk, and two feats that don't fit any prerequisites we need. Superior Expertise is great, especially if we can get an attack that doesn't rely on attack rolls (because we don't want to be too useless, if that's at all possible).

Nimble Deflections doesn't work with Might of the Hand, but with Temerad fighting style and other sources of Dodge targets (if they stack), you could save yourself a shield. Animated shields will be better quite early though, because you'll need only a +1 animated buckler to make the whole feat useless.

Deceptive Dodge is great, it has more limits than Elusive Target, but doesn't require flanking. FE to Dodge is nice, but it requires you to select one of your favoured enemies only, which means it requires a themed campaign to really work. Great flavour for a gnome-themed build, with FE (giants).

Opportunistic Tactician is great, Evasive Reflexes watch out! We have all the prerequisites anyway, so better throw it in. The same article has Defensive Opportunist, which allows you to make AoOs at no penalty while fighting defensively.

[Thurbane]

One more find: Dragon #301 have Kick Them While They're Down feat - with it, when enemies trying to stand from prone in your threatened area, you may AoO them; required BAB 3+ and Alertness

I hope there's more to the feat than that, because you can already AoO someone in your threatened are when they stand up from prone (unless they have an ability that circumvents this, like the Back On Your Feet skill trick).

[ShurikVch]

I hope there's more to the feat than that, because you can already AoO someone in your threatened are when they stand up from prone (unless they have an ability that circumvents this, like the Back On Your Feet skill trick).Unfortunately, no.
#301 was 3.0 era issue, and in 3.0 standing from prone doesn't provoked AoO, which the feat pointing directly in the "Normal" section.
(It will teach me to post things at night without double-checking... :smallsigh:)