I really like how Domains are balanced.

[Wolfwood2]

Is it just me, or does the balance for clerical domains kind of rock?

I like that some of the granted powers are better than others. I like that some have spells from the arcane lists, while others are just spells that you could prepare anyway. I like that each deity has a specific list of domains, and you may not always be able to find one that has two domains you want.

The thing is, with so many different factors in play it's easy to give fun and quirky domain abilties that can be balanced by spell choice, and fun and quirky spell choices that can be balanced by granted powers. The whole granted power thing rocks, because it helps make clerics of different gods different from each other.

This isn't to say that you can achieve perfect balance. There are always going to be real stinkers of a domain and some that are really good (looking at you, Travel). But overall, a great mechanic.

Just felt like sharing that.

[Zherog]

There are always going to be real stinkers of a domain ...

Looking at you, Healing...

[LotharBot]

I modified the healing domain to give you the cure spells from one level higher.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Looking at you, Healing...

Really?
I think that if you cast one cure spell of each level and a Heal daily, then you'd be casting them anyway, and so the Healing domain *really* lets you fill most of its slots with *anything*. If you're a healer-type character, it's basically a "free slots!" domain.

[Fax Celestis]

Looking at you, Healing...

Healing is a really good domain if you're a sorceror with the CCham variant!

[Arbitrarity]

Really?
I think that if you cast one cure spell of each level and a Heal daily, then you'd be casting them anyway, and so the Healing domain *really* lets you fill most of its slots with *anything*. If you're a healer-type character, it's basically a "free slots!" domain.

Good cleric. Spontaneous healing.

Why healing? Why?!

[Rachel Lorelei]

Good cleric. Spontaneous healing.

Why healing? Why?!

Let me try to elaborate:
Normally, your cleric is going to spontaneously convert a first-level spell, a second-level spell, a third-level spell, etc. into healing spells over the course of a day.
Your cleric can't convert domain spells.

A cleric with the Healing domain is going to cast those spells out of his domain spells, instead of converting regular spells.
This means that the Healing-domain cleric is using domain slots instead of regular slots, which is an advantage, because you can put any cleric spell into regular slots and one of two spells into domain slots. Unless you have a second domain with really useful spells that aren't on the Cleric list, this is an advantage.

[Jacob Orlove]

It's great when all clerics get spontaneous Domain access instead of spontaneous Cure spells. Incidentally, that's an excellent general rule to further differentiate clerics of different alignments and domains, and I recommend it if you're a fan of domains in general.

[Arbitrarity]

But there are really useful spells in some domains, which is why you pick them. I can see why you might do that if you have only really poor (i.e. no non-cleric spells, no great domain powers) domains to choose from, but otherwise, it's better to take travel, or magic, or trickery. This gets worse non-core, of course.

[Zherog]

Let me try to elaborate:
Normally, your cleric is going to spontaneously convert a first-level spell, a second-level spell, a third-level spell, etc. into healing spells over the course of a day.
Your cleric can't convert domain spells.

A cleric with the Healing domain is going to cast those spells out of his domain spells, instead of converting regular spells.
This means that the Healing-domain cleric is using domain slots instead of regular slots, which is an advantage, because you can put any cleric spell into regular slots and one of two spells into domain slots. Unless you have a second domain with really useful spells that aren't on the Cleric list, this is an advantage.


No, it's not an advantage. It removes flexibility, which is a distinct disadvantage. The domain power also sucks horribly.

The cleric's choices are:

Prepare a healing spell in my domain slot, even though I can convert any other spell into a healing spell if the need arises
Prepare a spell from other domain in that slot instead


Option 2 is, in my opinion, always a better choice. You become more flexible with a more robust spell list, while still being able to crank out the healing mojo.


but otherwise, it's better to take travel, or magic, or trickery. This gets worse non-core, of course.

Or Luck or Destruction or Knowledge or... yeah...

[Jack Mann]

Yes, some domains give good spells, but some give good powers instead, and you might want to take those.

Of course, the problem with taking the healing domain for that reason is that you could instead take either another domain with good powers, or else one with good spells.

[Zherog]

Yes, some domains give good spells, but some give good powers instead, and you might want to take those.

When I'm building a cleric, my preference is to pick one domain with a kick ass spell list - preferably one loaded up with spells that I can't otherwise get as a cleric. Then I look through the deity's other domains and find the best granted power. If the second domain has a good spell or two, that's just a bonus.

[ByeLindgren]

The power of the Healing domain depends on the relative strength of the prepared Domain spell compared to the least-useful normally-prepared spell. If the spell taking up the Domain slot is less useful than the spell Mr. No-Healing-Domain burns to spontaneously heal, then the Healing Domain wins that round. The same applies the other way around.

The way I see it, if you take good domains in healing's stead, the domain spell is usually going to be better than your worst normally-prepared spell, making those domains win out. BUT I can imagine two domains with bad-enough spell selections to make Healing a better option.

Personally, I like going Cloistered Cleric -> Domain-granting PrC anyway, so throwing in a crappy domain doesn't matter as much.

[horseboy]

On the topic of domains, I don't understand like the "Law" domain. +1 to law spells. So I can Detect Law better than normal? Why would I need that if I'm Law aligned anyway?

[Arbitrarity]

Dictum? 1 more HD of instakills and other effects.

But yeah. Most aligned domains seem to be pretty terrible.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Is it just me, or does the balance for clerical domains kind of rock?

I like that some of the granted powers are better than others. I like that some have spells from the arcane lists, while others are just spells that you could prepare anyway. I like that each deity has a specific list of domains, and you may not always be able to find one that has two domains you want.

The thing is, with so many different factors in play it's easy to give fun and quirky domain abilties that can be balanced by spell choice, and fun and quirky spell choices that can be balanced by granted powers. The whole granted power thing rocks, because it helps make clerics of different gods different from each other.

This isn't to say that you can achieve perfect balance. There are always going to be real stinkers of a domain and some that are really good (looking at you, Travel). But overall, a great mechanic.

Just felt like sharing that.
Yes. Some Domain abilities are better than others.

You know what else? Power Attack is better than Toughness.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes. Some Domain abilities are better than others.

You know what else? Power Attack is better than Toughness.

ZOMG NO WAI. I don't beleevz you.

[de-trick]

Yes. Some Domain abilities are better than others.

You know what else? Power Attack is better than Toughness.

No it is ain't
you can take 3 extra points of damage



why u lie

lier, I hate you
just kids power attack is better than toughness

[The Gilded Duke]

I always liked the time domain.
Improved Initiative as the Domain Ability.
True Strike, Permenancy and Time Stop as spells.

[HydwenPrydain]

Some of the aligned domains can be ok if you know what you're going to be facing ahead of time. Ditto for the elemental domains. For instance, I'm playing a Sacred Fist (monk 2/cleric 4/sacred fist 3) in a campaign based around battling evil outsiders, so the good domain & holy smite seemed like a good choice.

Edit: ^^^ Time domain is the stone nuts. Elf and planning are also awesome as hell.

[....]

What if you're an evil cleric? How about healing then?

[Arbitrarity]

Don't be an evil cleric, be necropolitan (along with the party), Prepare some freakin' healing spells, don't rely on one domain slot/spell level.

[Krellen]

Regarding the Healing Domain, I'd like to point out that Heal, Regenerate and Mass Heal are not candidates for spontaneous conversion, and all are decidedly better than their equivalent cure spells, so at higher levels the Healing domain is a plus. For the Heal, that's an extra Planar Ally or Wind Walk you can prepare; for the Regenerate, it's an extra Destruction or Holy Word; for the Mass Heal, that's an extra Gate or Miracle.

As for the Alignment domains, their big advantage is their 4th level spell; the only way to get access to Chaos Hammer or Holy Smite is by having the appropriate Domain - and by extension, the only way to create anarchic or holy weapons. (The same is true of Law and Evil, I just didn't want to list them all.)

[tainsouvra]

What if you're an evil cleric? How about healing then? Why would an evil cleric need more than a couple healing spells anyway? The undead he can create are most likely more durable, more loyal, and easier for him to heal with spontaneous Inflict spells than living allies would be...and if he has living allies, and those allies are in desperate need of healing, one or two Animate spells are much less resource-intensive than a suite of healing spells in addition to allowing him to gain the aforementioned benefits.

[Godhand]

Besides the healing domain, the only other way to get access to spont. heal spells is the combat medic I believe.

The good domain can be useful if you go into different PrC that don't progress your turning abilities. Going up against undead or demons? Holy Smite and Hold Word are fantastic spells. In fact, the Good domain is one of the few I would take every spell in. Except the last one, summon IX is nice, but Prismatic Sphere and Implosion are just nifty.

[Jack Mann]

Well, generally speaking, turn undead becomes less useful when you get to higher levels anyway. Undead generally progress in hit dice a lot faster than they progress in CR. A nightwalker, for example, is CR 16, with 21 HD. A level 16 cleric has no chance of turning it.

This is because undead have poor BAB and generally few hit points (due to their lack of a con modifier). And if you advance them further, they gain four hit dice for every one increase to CR.

This is part of why divine metamagic and other divine feats are such a good value. You eventually reach a point where you're not going to use those turn attempts for anything else anyway.

[Belteshazzar]

I have considered giving all clerics domain spontaneity as opposed to alignment based Cures and Inflict Wounds. This makes domain choices more integral, removes the redundancy of the healing domain, and helps it seem that the powers you serve have more influence over your own power.

[Matthew]

Yes. Some Domain abilities are better than others.

You know what else? Power Attack is better than Toughness.

Hmmn. Power Attack isn't really very good at Level 1, though. Given that you survive Level 1 it becomes a better choice than Toughness. Of course, with retraining rules, you might be able to get the best of both worlds.

[namo]

Well, generally speaking, turn undead becomes less useful when you get to higher levels anyway. Undead generally progress in hit dice a lot faster than they progress in CR. A nightwalker, for example, is CR 16, with 21 HD. A level 16 cleric has no chance of turning it.


A non anti-undead cleric, you mean (that's most of them, admittedly). I shudder to think what an optimized turner can destroy with only one turning.

They are many different ways of seeing the utility of domains, depending on whether you're a Cleric, an Archivist, a druid with Contemplative, an arcane caster with Arcane Disciple...

I also like how they sometimes give unique spells (Jack Mann would know about the Armor of Darkness spell ; also see the Hunger and Domination domains).

[Jack Mann]

It's possible now, with some of the spells from Complete Champion. But before, the max HD you could possibly affect was only five higher than your level (with the improved turning feat). And you generally had to have a fairly lucky roll, since charisma is, at best, a secondary stat for a cleric (assuming a dedicated turner). Since high CR undead generally have more hit dice than that, you eventually reach a point when it's impossible to turn anything but mooks.

Light of Faith from Complete Champion gives you up to a +5 bonus to your effective level, which keeps turning practical for longer. Of course, this can lead to problems if you're overoptimized. Obviously, if you have the sun domain (and especially if you're a radiant servant of Pelor), it becomes a lot harder to send an undead BBEG after you, given that you can destroy him nigh instantly, with no save. This leads to a problem where you have something you do extremely well, to the point where you get fewer opportunities to do it. If the DM sends undead against you at this point, they're likely to be plot critical, or he'll flood undead until you run out of turn attempts, simply so that his vampire lord has a chance to pose a threat to the party. More often, he'll simply avoid sending too many undead, since they stop being that interesting.

The problem with turning is that if you get really good at it, it becomes too good. If you don't, it becomes useless.

If I were to redesign it, I'd base it on CR instead of HD, and either change out the Sun Domain's power, or give it a save. Will, probably. Fort saves for undead is like shooting undead fish in a barrel.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, the Healing domain comes into it's own after fifth level. You see... a cleric spontaniously casts cure or [/i] inflict[/i] spells. You do NOT spontaniously cast things like... oh say Heal. Or Mass Heal. Cure all your buddies at once. What, not enough? Well, if you're fighting a crapton of undead, not only can you heal your buddies, but you can screw them over at the same time with the same spell! Regenerate is also very nice for regrowing lost limbs.

Plus, spontanious Domain: Healing > normal spontanious casting for a Good cleric (because Heal >>>> Mass Cure Moderate Wounds) and it also sets up RSoP cheeze to be able to auto-max and empower your healing domain spells.

On the whole, however, I think the Repose domain is very tasty. All the nastiness of the Death domain, without the undeadness to it. Slay Living. If he fails his Fort save, he takes ouchie damage. Follow it up with the domain ability Death Touch. Odds are, they're screwed.

Luck domain is very good. The granted power can help cover a bad roll if necessary, and it has good spells in it.

Plant domain is also nice. Rebuke/Command plants with turn attempts. Get a high enough check and have a Shambler following you around as a pet. Speaking of Shambling Mounds, that's your 9th level domain spell... and it's a very good one at that. Look at that duration, 7 days. A whole week. Cast it every day and you could have 1d4+2 * 7 shambling mounds following you. Live for the swarm, the absolutely free of charge swarm. They're very handy for battlefield control, being grapple specialists, and with the con gain with lightning, and resistance to fire, they're surprisingly hardy too, for such low HD critters.

The Protection domain nets you Mind Blank. I don't think I need to get into all the cheeze that can be done with that. DMM Chain and Divine Reach from Heirophant comes to mind to grant the whole party a mind blank.

Sun Domain is pretty good. The granted power is nice. The spells, while exclusively fire-aspected, are also very nice ones to have for a bit of blasting on the side.

Travel is also good. Dimension Door as a domain spell. Greater Teleport too. Handy if your arcane caster doesn't want to shoulder the burden of taxi cab.

Trickery. Some good skills there, although it still doesn't give you any more skill points, which you will be sadly lacking. But the crown jewel here is both PAO and Time Stop as domain spells.

Various elemental domains. Turn/destroy opposed elementals, rebuke/command like ones. All kinds of fun. Get one from the fire/water and one from the air/earth aspects and you can turn or rebuke all elementals. Plus most of 'em have a decent spell list. Personally, I'd go with Earth and Water. You already have fire spells as a cleric, and Iron Body is just tasty to a cleric, since they don't have to worry about ASF. Since range is personal, you can DMM Persist it to get a whole host of immunities and DR 15/Adamantine.

Destruction is fun. Disintigrate as a domain spell. Harm too. The Smite can come in handy as well.

Now then, as pointed out, the alignment-aspected domains... suck. Hard. +1 caster level on spells aligned to it. Crappy spells. Avoid them.

[The Glyphstone]

Healing's only real serious saving grace is that it gives you access to the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC, for HealbotMania. Nothing outheals a Cleric/RSoP with Healing domain, and for good measure, Spontaneous Domain Access.

(Granted, by default only works for a Pelor worshipper, but most DM's will let you alter it for any healing-oriented god/dess in most cases).

[Zherog]

Besides the healing domain, the only other way to get access to spont. heal spells is the combat medic I believe.

By itself, the Healing domain doesn't grant the ability to spontaneously cast heal. You also need to take the feat (Domain Spontaneity? Is that the name? Blarg - I don't think on Saturdays...)

[The Glyphstone]

Domain Spontaneity - it's not a feat, but an alternative class feature from either PHBII or Complete Mage, I think. You lose the spontaneous cure/inflict, and gain spontaneous casting of your domain spells.

[Drascin]

Domain Spontaneity - it's not a feat, but an alternative class feature from either PHBII or Complete Mage, I think. You lose the spontaneous cure/inflict, and gain spontaneous casting of your domain spells.

It is also a feat too - in the complete divine. A divine feat at that, you have to burn a Turn attempt to use it, but being able to espontaneously cast your domain spells AND the cures is just too handy. Dead slots? Whazzat?

[The Glyphstone]

It is also a feat too - in the complete divine. A divine feat at that, you have to burn a Turn attempt to use it, but being able to espontaneously cast your domain spells AND the cures is just too handy. Dead slots? Whazzat?


ORLY? Cool, forgot about that...

[Aquillion]

I think part of the reason domains seem so well-balanced is that you only get each spell from them once per day. So, yeah, something like the Time or Spell domain is dramatically better than lots of others; but it's not generally going to be overwhelming from a character standpoint, at least not when compared to a merely decent domain.

[UserClone]

How come nobody likes my favorite - the Slime domain?
"Yes, that's an Ochre Jelly following me around, his name is George. And DON'T CALL ME A JELLYMANCER!"

[Belteshazzar]

*whispers*: Jellymancer

Actually I have always wanted to try an Elder God cleric with slime, and dream domains.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I think part of the reason domains seem so well-balanced is that you only get each spell from them once per day. So, yeah, something like the Time or Spell domain is dramatically better than lots of others; but it's not generally going to be overwhelming from a character standpoint, at least not when compared to a merely decent domain.

A bigger issue is that Domains are largely flavor based; because a Cleric's diety is so important to his character, your Halfling nationalist character is hard pressed to choose Boccob just so you can get the right domains.

Also, domains don't even start being overpowered until the later levels; most players never get access to 9th level spells.

[namo]

It's possible now, with some of the spells fromr Complete Champion. But before, the max HD you could possibly affect was only five higher than your level (with the improved turning feat).

No, even before, you could do some ridiculous turning (search the CO boards - there was a contest a long time ago). That said, the rest of your point still stands.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No, even before, you could do some ridiculous turning (search the CO boards - there was a contest a long time ago). That said, the rest of your point still stands.

A Phylactery of Undead Turning, for example, gave a +4 to his effective cleric level for turn attempts. The Glory domain used to give bonuses as well. I ended up with a cleric turning stuff almost ten hit dice greater than his level. And over thirty HD worth of turning on the damage roll.