Shatter use in enemy strongholds/dungeons.

[Strifer]

I have been DM'ing a number of groups, mostly at lower levels 1-6. I have noticed most of them using shatter as a AoE spell to get rid of a group of enemies. It is however a very loud spell... So usually I let the dungeon become aware of an attack and let them prepare accordingly (grouping up, preparing counterattacks or trapping the PCs).

The quick use of shatter from the group usually gets them in trouble (and I have hinted at this, both in- and out game) and gives them a lot of deadly and wave based encounters. They find this both exciting and a bit too difficult. So I was wondering what other DM's were doing with the sound effects of spells like shatter in dungeons and strongholds. I have not let the players fight trough a "surprised" dungeon because of sound effects, is this normal or should I be a little nicer? Thanks!

[JackPhoenix]

I run CaW style game. If the PC's manage to pull the whole enemy stronghold, they'll face the whole enemy stronghold. Should've been more careful.

[tieren]

We run into the same problem with thunderwave, spell says it can be heard out to 300 feet, which in a castle is a pretty large area.

I liked the solution from Lost Mines of Phandelver, Wave Echo Cave where there was decent background noise to mask some of these effects.

[smcmike]

That depends on your philosophy.

Dungeons are usually designed to break up into manageable encounters. In cases where the party is invading an organized stronghold, this design already requires a hefty dose of suspension of disbelief.

There isn't anything wrong with running an organized stronghold more realistically, but doing so while still providing a path toward success for the party is tricky.

[Strifer]

Yea that was a nice feature, I have just been noticing that they give an option for TPK. An one of my groups only used it if there are no other options. I have been killing a number Pc's and was just wondering what other people did. I really like a large logical world and big bangs tend to be noticed.

[RSP]

Nothing says you can't flat out tell them the boom will be heard by other enemies. Assuming they didn't all dump int and wis, their characters would probably knew aware of this even if the Players aren't.

[hymer]

Yea that was a nice feature, I have just been noticing that they give an option for TPK. An one of my groups only used it if there are no other options. I have been killing a number Pc's and was just wondering what other people did. I really like a large logical world and big bangs tend to be noticed.

I do it the same way you do, and some people not used to that style have reacted to it. But usually the other players explain it without my needing to point it out.
One thing you could consider is giving them an adventure, where the loud noises matter much less. Perhaps the adventuring day is used travelling, or the undead guardians don't respond to loud noises outside the specific area they are set to protect. Just remember to narrate the difference, e.g.: "Since you've made no loud noises on your way up the path, the camp has not yet noticed you. If they had, they would probably all be behind cover by now."
Just to show that there are good uses for big boom spells, and the advantages of surprise.

[Strifer]

I do it the same way you do, and some people not used to that style have reacted to it. But usually the other players explain it without my needing to point it out.
One thing you could consider is giving them an adventure, where the loud noises matter much less. Perhaps the adventuring day is used travelling, or the undead guardians don't respond to loud noises outside the specific area they are set to protect. Just remember to narrate the difference, e.g.: "Since you've made no loud noises on your way up the path, the camp has not yet noticed you. If they had, they would probably all be behind cover by now."
Just to show that there are good uses for big boom spells, and the advantages of surprise.

Good point and I'll see if I can implement it. I think I'll give them more of a warning followed by me not holding back. I fear the players are now thinking "nothing can kill us" so if they act foolish again I won't hold back.

[Easy_Lee]

This would just encourage me to either pick silent spells or go for subtle approaches to invading dungeons. If you're talking realism, many quests can be resolved through stealth alone. I wonder how you would feel if a druid pass without traced himself, put the party in his bag of holding, wildshaped into a house fly, found the mcguffin room, acquired mcguffin, and the party wizard teleported everyone out. Sure, you might think of ways to prevent that, but realistically it should work nearly every time. If you keep killing the players for fighting, they might start trying things like that.

Whatever you're going to do, just notify your players if you plan to violate their expectations. Having shatter wake up the whole fortress is a violation of expectations.

[smcmike]

This would just encourage me to either pick silent spells or go for subtle approaches to invading dungeons.

Isn't that the point? While not every dungeon should work this way, this is a perfectly reasonable thing to want to do!


I wonder how you would feel if a druid pass without traced himself, put the party in his bag of holding, wildshaped into a house fly, found the mcguffin room, acquired mcguffin, and the party wizard teleported everyone out. Sure, you might think of ways to prevent that, but realistically it should work nearly every time.

Bags of holding have both limited carrying capacity and limited air supply that make this scheme impractical, but, yes, this sort of sheming is to be expected when just fighting isn't going to work. Whether you think this is a good or a bad thing is up to you.



Whatever you're going to do, just notify your players if you plan to violate their expectations. Having shatter wake up the whole fortress is a violation of expectations.

I dunno. Loud bangs tend to wake people up.

[Easy_Lee]

Isn't that the point? While not every dungeon should work this way, this is a perfectly reasonable thing to want to do!

I mention it because I've known quite a few DMs who don't appreciate subtle approaches. They have this idea that D&D is designed for combat only, and that avoiding combat is therefore bad. When a DM like that also actively punishes players for engaging in combat, it can be frustrating for the players.

Communication is key. It doesn't take much to convince players that nothing they try will work unless the DM wants it to. The DM is holding all of the cards, and some DMs forget that.

Rather than punish players for taking a given approach, encouraging a different one (such as through an NPC) may work better

[smcmike]

I mention it because I've known quite a few DMs who don't appreciate subtle approaches. They have this idea that D&D is designed for combat only, and that avoiding combat is therefore bad. When a DM like that also actively punishes players for engaging in combat, it can be frustrating for the players.

Communication is key. It doesn't take much to convince players that nothing they try will work unless the DM wants it to. The DM is holding all of the cards, and some DMs forget that.

Rather than punish players for taking a given approach, encouraging a different one (such as through an NPC) may work better

Yeah, I strongly agree. When you present players with a challenge and they perceive it as insurmountable, things can get ugly. Asking a party to enter a well-organized enemy stronghold is a very hard challenge, and needs to be handled with care. The players should be given ample warning of the danger that they are getting themselves into, as well as hooks to help them plan, such as NPCs who have been inside, a specific and limited goal, or allies that can take the heat off.

Most dungeons are not designed as well-organized strongholds for a reason. In a cave system with a variety of monstrous residents, this problem can be resolved "realistically."

[Strifer]

Yeah, I strongly agree. When you present players with a challenge and they perceive it as insurmountable, things can get ugly. Asking a party to enter a well-organized enemy stronghold is a very hard challenge, and needs to be handled with care. The players should be given ample warning of the danger that they are getting themselves into, as well as hooks to help them plan, such as NPCs who have been inside, a specific and limited goal, or allies that can take the heat off.

Most dungeons are not designed as well-organized strongholds for a reason. In a cave system with a variety of monstrous residents, this problem can be resolved "realistically."

I like combat and I like sneak methods (or just creative/magical ways of changing how the game is played). This group usually runs in, blasts the first group with shatter (or a fireball in the night) and go from there. I'm playing the prince's of the apocalypse story and this way of playing is probably gonna get them killed. That is why I was asking upon your rulings :).

[grumbaki]

Let your players know that this was a *really* loud sound and that it will have alerted everyone. However, the denizens of the castle/fort/dungeon/crypt might not know what the sound came from.

Imagine if you would that you are lying in your barracks. You hear a BOOM that sounds like thunder, only much louder than anything you heard before. Is your first response "Grab your sword boys, we got company!" or is it "What was that sound? Weird. I'm going to go see what that was."

It will alert everyone, but it might not mean a call to arms just yet.

If possible, the group could find a way to manipulate the weather so those in the castle simply think it is natural.

[Tanarii]

Shatter doesn't say how far out it is heard, unlike Thunderwave or Knock. Given the lack of specificity, there's no reason to assume it's heard at 300ft, like those spells are. It's still described as "A sudden loud ringing noise, painfully intense" so it's probably still further away than normal combat.

Given that combat in general can probably be heard somewhere around 60ft away as if it's someone talking (not too loudly), that means Shatter probably audible out to 150ft-200ft, unless damped by intervening doors / walls. That's enough in many dungeons to draw some serious attention. OTOH, often combat itself is enough you've already got problems.

[Koren]

Shatter doesn't say how far out it is heard, unlike Thunderwave or Knock. Given the lack of specificity, there's no reason to assume it's heard at 300ft, like those spells are. It's still described as "A sudden loud ringing noise, painfully intense" so it's probably still further away than normal combat.

I'm curious about this too, Thunderwave and Knock are very specific about the noise. A giant "we are here" to everyone listening. Shatter says it's a loud noise but is it just supposed to be up to the DM what that means? If it's painfully intense does that mean a player could make enemies grab their ears and drop if caught by surprise? (No damage, just a reaction to the noise)

On topic, I say if this happened to them before and they keep doing it without considering consequences then it's on them, not you. No need to change the way your world works because someone can't accept the (alternate) reality they are inhabiting.

[Ugganaut]

Shatter doesn't say how far out it is heard, unlike Thunderwave or Knock. Given the lack of specificity, there's no reason to assume it's heard at 300ft, like those spells are. It's still described as "A sudden loud ringing noise, painfully intense" so it's probably still further away than normal combat.

Given that combat in general can probably be heard somewhere around 60ft away as if it's someone talking (not too loudly), that means Shatter probably audible out to 150ft-200ft, unless damped by intervening doors / walls. That's enough in many dungeons to draw some serious attention. OTOH, often combat itself is enough you've already got problems.

I always saw Thunder damage as sound, not necessarily cracks of thunder. Shatter I thought of as that ultra high frequency that shatters glass, cracks bones and can seen dogs nuts. Its loud, especially if you're in the area, but its not Thunderwave loud, which I imagine is the deep echo-y thunder sound. Same with Fireball, its the igniting of air, not a bomb exploding.
Swords clashing is loud too. If the spell specifically says distance, then the player has had all the warning they deserve. Otherwise I'd say "normal" loud, not Thunderwave loud.

[Tanarii]

I'm curious about this too, Thunderwave and Knock are very specific about the noise. A giant "we are here" to everyone listening. Shatter says it's a loud noise but is it just supposed to be up to the DM what that means? If it's painfully intense does that mean a player could make enemies grab their ears and drop if caught by surprise? (No damage, just a reaction to the noise)

On topic, I say if this happened to them before and they keep doing it without considering consequences then it's on them, not you. No need to change the way your world works because someone can't accept the (alternate) reality they are inhabiting.


I always saw Thunder damage as sound, not necessarily cracks of thunder. Shatter I thought of as that ultra high frequency that shatters glass, cracks bones and can seen dogs nuts. Its loud, especially if you're in the area, but its not Thunderwave loud, which I imagine is the deep echo-y thunder sound. Same with Fireball, its the igniting of air, not a bomb exploding.
Swords clashing is loud too. If the spell specifically says distance, then the player has had all the warning they deserve. Otherwise I'd say "normal" loud, not Thunderwave loud.
Since it's not specified, it's pretty much up to the DM. So I more or less agree with both of you.

However, the 'combat can be heard about 60ft away' is based on how sound decreases with distance, based on the assumption that combat is about as loud as a modern washing machine, but not as loud as a modern lawnmower. At approx 60ft, that'd make it more or less as loud as normal conversation. Which means it would be clearly heard if it was otherwise quiet by someone paying attention ... but unlikely to be heard and recognized as such by anyone in the middle of a conversation.

So a DM might rule it as the same as any other combat, or might rule it (as I said) as something in between. I was more trying to point out the bottom end being normal for hearing combat (roughly 60ft is probably reasonable), and the top end not being the same as Thunderwave/Knock. Rather than imply a DM must rule it 100ft-200ft (in between the two).