New Player Help

[Kesnit]

My wife and I just joined a group playing Pathfinder. I'm familiar with 3.5 and feel fairly confident building in that system. However, there are sufficient changes in Pathfinder - especially with the classes we're playing - that I need some help with our builds. We are at LVL 10

The Rest of the Party
Elf (I think) SORC (Elemental bloodline - cold)/Oracle/Mystic Theurge. (Not sure on the exact class breakdown, but she only has one level of MT, and 3rd level SORC casting.)
Human (I think) Gunslinger/Alchemist. (I do not know the class breakdown.)

The other players are rather low-op.


LE Tiefling Fighter (Brawler) 10

STR 14
DEX 20 (22 with gear)
CON 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 6

Feats
(1) Improved Unarmed Strike
(1) Combat Expertise
(2) Agile Maneuvers
(3) Fiend Sight
(4) Improved Trip
(5) Grasping Tail
(6) Improved Disarm
(7) Improved Grapple
(8) Combat Reflexes
(9) Weapon Finesse
(10) Lunge

Racial
Darkvision 120'
Bite
Resist 5 file, cold, electric
Prehensile Tail
Fiendish Sprinter

Gear
Belt of DEX +2
Cloak of Resistance +1
Leather Armor +1
Cestus +1

I'm going for a lock-down build, and plan to take Greater Grapple, Greater Trip, and Greater Disarm.

We've only played once, so I can make some changes without the DM raising too many issues. (The only feats I've used are Improved Trip, Agile Maneuvers, and Weapon Finesse.)

I've been thinking about swapping out 2 levels of Fighter for 2 levels of Monk. My Reflex and Will saves will get better, I'll lose 1 BAB, get Evasion, and (I think) can pick up another feat, since I will get IUS and Combat Expertise (or Combat Reflexes? - I'm away from books) from Monk. I also increase my unarmed damage from 1d4 to 1d6. (Obviously I don't get WIS to AC since I wear armor, but I don't really care since I have a 0 WIS bonus.) I'll also get some more skills, which will likely all go into Perception.

Is there something else I should do to make myself better at the role I've chosen? Different class(es)? PrC?




I will post my wife's build once I have access to it. She is a SORC (Elemental Bloodline - fire). I can't remember what her race is called, but it is from the additional race book, and is from the Plane of Shadow.

[zlefin]

does the group use unchained monk or the original monk?
or do you have an option to choose either?

[Kesnit]

does the group use unchained monk or the original monk?
or do you have an option to choose either?

Original, as far as I know. What book is Unchained from? If they have that book, I could probably use it.

[zlefin]

it's from the book pathfinder unchained iirc (some of the base classes were given reworks to address balance issues; summoner, barbarian, and rogue also got reworks in it)
do you use the pathfinder reference doc online resources?

[Geddy2112]

At first I thought you were the brawler class, which is far better than the brawler fighter. I forget exactly which book it is in, but it is the one with all the other hybrid classes.

The brawler is a hybrid class of fighter and monk. It gets unarmed strike bonuses like a monk, a similar monk flurry, and the ability to learn combat feats on the fly(for 1 minute per level, multiple at higher levels). Other bonuses include having your int count as 13 for combat feats, meaning you don't need 14 INT for combat expertise, and the ability to wear light armor. You get proficiency in all weapons from the close fighter group, improved unarmed strike as a bonus, 4 skill ranks per level and a better skill list. You don't get as many fighter feats but you get some bonus feats.

That in mind, you can learn whatever useful improved maneuver feat you need each combat, leaving the hardwired feat slots for other things. There is a feat better than combat expertise(unless you plan on using it and fighting defensively to make your AC stupid high) called dirty fighting-whenever you flank you can do a maneuver without provoking an AoO instead of getting +2, or if you have the improved maneuver you get an additional +2 to it when flanking. It counts as dex 13, int 13, and combat expertise for all prerequisites as well.

So you pick 2-3 core maneuvers(grapple, trip, disarm) and then you can learn the rest each combat as needed. You don't need agile maneuvers with weapon finesse, as long as the maneuver can be done with a finesse weapon(like trip). Swap int and wis, as you don't need it from brawler's cunning and 4 skill ranks/level, but you need the will save bonus. Grasping tail is useless in an unarmed build, the prehensile tail is good enough as is.

A fetchling makes for a good sorcerer, although fire is not the best bloodline and might be redundant with an elemental bloodline already in play.

[Kesnit]

At first I thought you were the brawler class, which is far better than the brawler fighter. I forget exactly which book it is in, but it is the one with all the other hybrid classes.

I found it. It looks perfect.



There is a feat better than combat expertise(unless you plan on using it and fighting defensively to make your AC stupid high) called dirty fighting-whenever you flank you can do a maneuver without provoking an AoO instead of getting +2, or if you have the improved maneuver you get an additional +2 to it when flanking. It counts as dex 13, int 13, and combat expertise for all prerequisites as well.

Thanks. I found the book it's in, and will take that feat.

Is there a feat better than Combat Reflexes? I want to ask since that is a feat I really should take.


You don't need agile maneuvers with weapon finesse, as long as the maneuver can be done with a finesse weapon(like trip).

Is there a rule that says that?


Grasping tail is useless in an unarmed build, the prehensile tail is good enough as is.

I took it with the thought that it might come in handy. I know I don't need it, and will likely not take in in my rebuild.


A fetchling makes for a good sorcerer, although fire is not the best bloodline and might be redundant with an elemental bloodline already in play.

She is open to other suggestions for a fire-obsessed SORC


STR 8
DEX 14
CON 10
INT 16
WIS 12
CHA 20 (22)

Feats
Bloodline: Weapon Finesse


Gear
Headband of CHA +2
Sorcerer's Robe
Bracers of Armor +1


Spells
0: Ghost Sound, Ray of Frost (fire), Swtect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic, Flare, OPen/Close, Mending, Disrupt Undead
1: Magic Missile, Obscuring Mist, Burning Hands, Ventriloquism, Comprehend Languages
2: Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Make Whole,
3: Fireball, Explosive Runes, Tongues
4: Ice Storm, Remove Curse
5: Cone of Cold

As you can see, we have not picked any feats for her. Also, are there better spells that she should take?

[Geddy2112]

Is there a feat better than Combat Reflexes? I want to ask since that is a feat I really should take.

There are, but combat reflexes is a really good feat for any dex based character. Characters with reach weapons and swashbucklers get more mileage out of it, but it is decent in its own right. It is also a prerequisite for feats like stand still, and having prerequisite feats is a good thing as a brawler.


Is there a rule that says that?

Yeah, there is a ruling here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat/)


I took it with the thought that it might come in handy. I know I don't need it, and will likely not take in in my rebuild.
I could see it as marginally useful if you were focused on disarming and then taking their weapons. Good if you plan on taking enemies alive. You can deal nonlethal damage at no penalty with your unarmed strikes so if you are going that route, it is something.


She is open to other suggestions for a fire-obsessed SORC


STR 8
DEX 14
CON 10
INT 16
WIS 12
CHA 20 (22)

Feats
Bloodline: Weapon Finesse


Gear
Headband of CHA +2
Sorcerer's Robe
Bracers of Armor +1


Spells
0: Ghost Sound, Ray of Frost (fire), Swtect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic, Flare, OPen/Close, Mending, Disrupt Undead
1: Magic Missile, Obscuring Mist, Burning Hands, Ventriloquism, Comprehend Languages
2: Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Make Whole,
3: Fireball, Explosive Runes, Tongues
4: Ice Storm, Remove Curse
5: Cone of Cold

As you can see, we have not picked any feats for her. Also, are there better spells that she should take?
Consider swapping con and wis for ability scores, as sorcerers have strong will saves but only d6 hp. 16 int is a bit high but it gives a lot of skill ranks and if that's her thing more power to her.

Elemental bloodline is far from optimal, but if you have two blast fire/ice sorcerers that is cool thematically.If your gaming group is not super high OP then you don't need to worry, but you can tweak the bloodline to make it stronger. I would strongly suggest taking the primal wildblood option-it trades out the crappy bloodline arcana to add more damage to fire spells, and replaces a redundant blast with the ability to get stronger summoned monsters.

Flare is probably one of the worst spells around-dazzling an enemy is never worth an action. Light is decent if you don't have LLV/darkvision. Prestidigitation is basically 0 level wish; fun and very useful. If she's sticking to elemental, you probably don't need ray of fire since you have the 1st level sorcerer power that does the same thing but better. If you are down to cantrips to fight with, a 1d3 damage spell won't do a dang thing.

I would back off the blast spells, particularly if you have another blasting sorcerer in the party. Any level you get a bloodline fire spell you don't need another blast or damage spell. Better to pick utility buffing/debuffing and out of combat spells.

If you are going to have tongues you don't need comprehend languages-you could take mage armor, saves money on bracers of armor because it lasts an hour per level so it is basically all day. Make whole is a very good spell, but it is not all that common to use so probably better as a scroll. Remember that your bloodline bonus spells don't count as a spell known, so you get an additional first level spell, 2nd level spell, protection from energy to 3rd level, and elemental body 1 to 4th level.

Let scorching ray be your 2nd level blast, and swap flaming sphere for another spell. I suggest false life for more HP(again, an hour per level buff).

Fireball is a good thematic spell and with the primal bloodline it gets really ugly. Explosive runes is less than great, but it is permanent and can be utterly hilarious and in some campaigns, incredibly useful. Ice storm is good for damage and battlefield control, but remove curse is probably too situational for anything but a scroll. At the next level, or possibly this one, getting haste would be a good call. Fly is not as important because elemental body and turning into an air elemental can mimic it. Cone of cold is decent enough as a blast.

There are no touch attack spells in the build, so there is no real point to weapon finesse. Improved initiative is the best feat in the bloodline, followed by dodge and great fortitude. Lightning reflexes and maybe even skill focus (planes) might even be useful if this is the only character specializing in planes as a knowledge. Even if you don't grab it in the bloodline, improved initiative is an incredibly good feat for casters. At higher levels, heighten spell is a great metamagic feat, as is quicken spell. For blasts, dazing spell at higher levels makes things like cone of cold and fireball combat ending spells. If the focus of the build is blasting, spell focus(evocation) is a solid choice to boost DC's. With sorcerer's having low HP, toughness might also be worth it.

[Wasum]

I wouldn't focus on blast spells unless that is right the thing she wants to do. First its not that poserful second you already have that covered.

[Florian]

@Kesnit:

Consider swapping Fire for Arcane bloodline and going for Heighten Spell, Preferred Spell, Dazing Spell or Entangling Spell. Choose a "workhorse" spell (like fireball) and pick the Magical Lineage trait for it to reduce Metamagic cost by 1. This way, she can have fun blasting things with fireballs and still do double duty bfc/debuff. As she´s playing a Fetchling, Improved Shadowy Defence, Shadow Walker and Shadow Ghost are good feat choices.