you think going gish warlock on a point buy is too ambitious?

[Yagyujubei]

normal 27 point buy and I would really like to play a gishlock...but im thinking it would be tough to pull off well since it's pretty MAD.

was thinking half elf with 8,15,15,8,10,14 might be doable and that maybe the added tankiness from undying light could work but i have no way of actually testing it out or anything. does anyone have actual in game experience that could share some insight?

[KnotaGuru]

I did vhuman gish lock figher 3/warlock 12. Started fighter 1, undying light booklock 9, figher to 3 (for EK), back to warlock 12. Strating stats 15, 10, 14, 10, 10, 16. Took heavy armor master as my bonus feat and defense fighting style for +1 AC. Picked up War Caster at lock 4, +2 Cha at lock 8, +2 Cha at lock 12. I use shillelagh and GFB at my main attack. I deal a lot of damage (1d8+5 + 2d8+5 fire to pimary target, +2d8+10 fire to adjacent target) and I'm super tanky. Have a 22 AC that I can boost to 27 with shield spell and also have absorb elements. With pact of the tomb and EK I have 11 cantrips and access to ritual spells making me extremely versitile. Burning hands and flaming sphere add lots of damage when needed. If I come across something immune to fire, I use agonizing eldritch blast & hex for 3d10+3d6+15. And I can action surge to do it again when need.

I don't see another method to get this much firepower, defense, & versatility by going straight warlock.

[MidgetMarine]

So if you want to play a Gish with Warlock in a point buy system, you're right, you do run the risk of becoming MAD. There's a few ways to work around.

The first thing to do is to make sure we're not splitting stat priority between a casting stat and our physical attack stat. There's two real options for this - Pact of the Tome Shillelagh and Hexblade Pact - both of which will allow you to use Charisma instead of physical stats when attacking. Personally I'd recommend Hexblade.
Depending on how far down the path you go, there's a variety of invocations and spells you can use to enable your playstyle.

Secondly, if you want to be more than a melee attacker that spams Eldritch Blast and casts one or two spells a day, you're going to need to multiclass. Multiclassing should be done into casting classes that share your primary stat, which leaves you with a few options:

Sorcerer is the most obvious choice, giving you Metamagic to help push out some more absurd spell combos, and the full casting progression being vital to your ability to function as both caster and melee. (I'm currently playing a Hexblade/Stone Sorcerer that only has to rely on CON and CHA mostly) but there's a few subclasses that could help you operate in a variety of ways.

Paladin would allow you to beef up, get some armor proficiency and be a more powerful frontliner for your party. Paladin's Smite abilities stack well with the Smite options from UA Warlock, using Warlock to enhance pally rather than the other way around.

Bard is the last option, and I haven't theory crafted this one, but I imagine there's some combination of Valor Bard or College of Blades that could function as a supportive Gish with somewhat less offensive capabilities.

The specifics of the build are easier to sort out once you've decided how you want to split casting and melee.
80/20?
70/30?
60/40?
Etc.

[Easy_Lee]

A single level of fighter does a lot to help a non hexblade blade lock. Variant human with polearm mastery is preferred. You can use a quarterstaff in one hand as an arcane focus, use dueling with it, and put a shield in your offhand. Starting fighter gets you Con saves as well, so you don't need warcaster.

[Yagyujubei]

hmm hexblade doesnt really fit with the character concept im working with, but shillelagh seems like it would work pretty well for my purposes with a MC in vengeance paladin...I think that could work out pretty well actually.

in which case it looks like pally5/warlock 15 is the split to aim for. would give me alot of extra spellcasting versatility and the extra attack while getting full benefits from undying light and two mystic arcanum spells. So then maybe the array to shoot for is 14,12,16,8,10,16 i guess.

[MidgetMarine]

If you want to do Shillelagh Warlock/Paladin, here's a general breakdown of what you'll want.

Your primary stat is Charisma.
Secondary stat is Con
Tertiary is any of Dex, Wis, Int

You're taking Pact of the Tome as your Pact Boon at 3 because it's the easiest way to link Shillelagh to a Charisma-based class.
Secondly, you'll probably want to get Agonizing Blast and a second invocation to max out your Eldritch Blast capabilities (I'd recommend Eldritch Spear, Grip of Hadar or Repelling Blast)
Who you sign your pact with probably varies, but I don't think you want to take Warlock too far past 3 because it scales rather badly, so look for a patron that gives abilities that don't fall off or rely on scaling too much.

As for Paladin, how you plan to engage in combat will determine the rest of the chassis.
How do you plan to approach combat?

I'd also recommend taking more levels in Paladin than Warlock, since it scales better IMO and Warlock is the superior dip.

[Yagyujubei]

so its kindof a weird situation because from my character concept the DM gave me the option of paladin or warlock, and im going to be serving a homebrew rainbow god that varies from chaotic neutral to lawful evil with a custom archetype attached...so I don't know exactly what my patron or oath boons will be yet.

[MidgetMarine]

You won't be able to use shillelagh unless you take Pact of the Tome, and that's your only way of getting Cha to melee if you've decided you don't want to take Hexblade Pact.

[Yagyujubei]

You won't be able to use shillelagh unless you take Pact of the Tome, and that's your only way of getting Cha to melee if you've decided you don't want to take Hexblade Pact.

yeah i can take whichever pact i want, but the other part of the class; the patrons boons, is up in the air as of what i'm going to actually get right now.

[MidgetMarine]

Well it's really hard to say if you'll be at all effective as a Gish if you don't know what your Warlock subclass does. The Shillelagh shell should work fine though, and you can trim the excess around that scaffolding.

[bid]

Dex bladelock caps at (1d8+10) * 2, much less than (1d10+5) * 4 from AB.

You almost need a 2-hander with GWM or PAM to come close of blastlock.


Shillelagh with BB/GFB also works, but that's not a bladelock.

[Easy_Lee]

Here's one clever thing you could do as a blade lock. Don't bother with the base blade invocations. Take spell sniper and use it to pick up green flame blade or similar. Then use a whip as your pact weapon. You can now green flame blade at a range of 10' due to spell sniper + whip, giving you effective pseudo-melee AoE at will. That image may fit your identity crisis rainbow patron, I don't know, but it's a thought.

With that approach, you can probably get away with 16 Dex, 16 Cha, and 14 Con as your starting stats, then put level ups to Cha.

[Strifer]

Here's one clever thing you could do as a blade lock. Don't bother with the base blade invocations. Take spell sniper and use it to pick up green flame blade or similar. Then use a whip as your pact weapon. You can now green flame blade at a range of 10' due to spell sniper + whip, giving you effective pseudo-melee AoE at will. That image may fit your identity crisis rainbow patron, I don't know, but it's a thought.

With that approach, you can probably get away with 16 Dex, 16 Cha, and 14 Con as your starting stats, then put level ups to Cha.

Unfortunately those cantrips only work within 5ft.... (weapon attack) tried the same on a magic initiate rogue before finding out it couldn't be done (RAW).

[Citan]

normal 27 point buy and I would really like to play a gishlock...but im thinking it would be tough to pull off well since it's pretty MAD.

was thinking half elf with 8,15,15,8,10,14 might be doable and that maybe the added tankiness from undying light could work but i have no way of actually testing it out or anything. does anyone have actual in game experience that could share some insight?


hmm hexblade doesnt really fit with the character concept im working with, but shillelagh seems like it would work pretty well for my purposes with a MC in vengeance paladin...I think that could work out pretty well actually.

in which case it looks like pally5/warlock 15 is the split to aim for. would give me alot of extra spellcasting versatility and the extra attack while getting full benefits from undying light and two mystic arcanum spells. So then maybe the array to shoot for is 14,12,16,8,10,16 i guess.
I concur with Shillelagh grabbed from Tome Pact instead of grabbing Blade Pact, especially if you intend to level Paladin up to Extra Attack.
On that matter, I'd actually advise you to instead take the Devotion Oath, although it does depend on how high you aim and what your end build is.

Vengeance is nice, but has some problems, the first being its Channel Divinity: it's a bonus action and very close range. As a Hexblade, you already have (IIRC) to use a bonus action to apply your feature hex. And you could also want to use a bonus action on Hex the spell.
However, Vengeance does get Haste as a spell in the end, but we are speaking of very high level here...
Compared to that, Devotion brings a Channel Divinity that uses your action: what is often seen as a bother may actually be good for you here: for that big fights against a powerful enemy, taking a turn of preparation while closing in may be handy, and makes you "doubly SAD" since it adds your CHA to to-hit, making you incredibly reliable hitter.

Beyond that, getting Sanctuary for a gish that is a bit on the frail side may save your hide a few times. ;)
So hey, that's why I think it's a tad more adequate Oath, unless you actually planned to only take a small dip in Warlock and level up Paladin ASAP... In which case, with Hexblade being better with increased number of attacks, getting Haste to use regularly instead of Hex may be the better option.


Unfortunately those cantrips only work within 5ft.... (weapon attack) tried the same on a magic initiate rogue before finding out it couldn't be done (RAW).
Hence why Easy_Lee talked about Spell Sniper, which doubles the range of cantrip that include attacks (which is technically the case of both weapon cantrips). So 5 feet > 10 feet, works. ;)

[Yagyujubei]

I concur with Shillelagh grabbed from Tome Pact instead of grabbing Blade Pact, especially if you intend to level Paladin up to Extra Attack.
On that matter, I'd actually advise you to instead take the Devotion Oath, although it does depend on how high you aim and what your end build is.

Vengeance is nice, but has some problems, the first being its Channel Divinity: it's a bonus action and very close range. As a Hexblade, you already have (IIRC) to use a bonus action to apply your feature hex. And you could also want to use a bonus action on Hex the spell.
However, Vengeance does get Haste as a spell in the end, but we are speaking of very high level here...
Compared to that, Devotion brings a Channel Divinity that uses your action: what is often seen as a bother may actually be good for you here: for that big fights against a powerful enemy, taking a turn of preparation while closing in may be handy, and makes you "doubly SAD" since it adds your CHA to to-hit, making you incredibly reliable hitter.

Beyond that, getting Sanctuary for a gish that is a bit on the frail side may save your hide a few times. ;)
So hey, that's why I think it's a tad more adequate Oath, unless you actually planned to only take a small dip in Warlock and level up Paladin ASAP... In which case, with Hexblade being better with increased number of attacks, getting Haste to use regularly instead of Hex may be the better option.


Hence why Easy_Lee talked about Spell Sniper, which doubles the range of cantrip that include attacks (which is technically the case of both weapon cantrips). So 5 feet > 10 feet, works. ;)

well im not gonna be a hexblade actually. I'm not 100% certain what my archetype is going to play like, but its being built on the chassis of undying light patron

what im torn on most now is whether or not to take STR to 15 for heavy armor access or whether i should just take it to 13 for pally MC and make my dex higher...heavy armor is obviously better from a min/max standpoint, but i dont really feel like my character is a full plate kinda guy and honestly having a better dex save seems like it might be better

[rbstr]

I guess to really help more we need to figure out what the character concept is a bit more.
Do you want to use melee cantrips or do you want to use extra attack ect.

You can do a fine Dex-based Blade Warlock. You might still want to pick up a level in fighter so you can get a shield and the dueling style. 16dex, 14 con, 16 cha starting is fine (Halfelf and vhuman both work great). You really don't need to take Shillelagh to be effective.
Another thing is that the Undying Light has been kind of replaced with the Celestial patron recently.

[Specter]

Using Variant Human for an example, you can start with 16 8 14 10 10 16 and a feat. Using all your ASIs, you can boost both stats to 20 and end with two feats, so I say no.

[Yagyujubei]

I guess to really help more we need to figure out what the character concept is a bit more.
Do you want to use melee cantrips or do you want to use extra attack ect.

You can do a fine Dex-based Blade Warlock. You might still want to pick up a level in fighter so you can get a shield and the dueling style. 16dex, 14 con, 16 cha starting is fine (Halfelf and vhuman both work great). You really don't need to take Shillelagh to be effective.
Another thing is that the Undying Light has been kind of replaced with the Celestial patron recently.

I would say in a general sense i was hoping for something like 60/40 between range/magic and melee cantrips/attacks. I guess if im gonna be using booming and or green flame blade an extra attack isnt that huge of a deal.

and the reason I'm kinda leaning away from STR focus or heavy armor is that my character just isn't big or strong physically and is on the young side as well i'll elaborate more when i get to a computer

EDIT: ok so the short version of the backstory/concept is that im in the villains side of a two party good vs. evil campaign and my character grew up in a place where any non divine magic was seen as heresy. so when my character started manifesting powers as a child his parents tried to beat it out of him at first but then decided they had to turn him in to the priesthood at which point he is burned at the stake. because of his powers he somehow survives this and is basically kidnapped by this cult of religious zealots who worship this god of rainbows. From that point he's basically tortured and brainwashed to be a weapon for their uses and is sent out with his handler to "spread the word" of their god by converting or killing anyone who isn't following their precepts.

so due to his upbringing he's skittish and cowardly and pretty insane really but is more afraid of disappointing his master than anything else. plus he's still pretty young so I just dont see him as a big burly guy with a GS or a polearm.

[KnotaGuru]

Strive for at least 9 levels in warlock. All of your spells are automatically upcast to 5th level. Burning hands & flaming sphere (if you get them), invisibility, fly, banishment, counterspell. Warlock 11 gets you 3 spell spots per sort rest which is awesome.

Bumping STR to 15 allows you wear heavy armor (if you multiclass) without penalty but is also more manageable with point buy. You'll spread yourself pretty thin needing 13 STR to multiclass and having 14 DEX with a respectable CON and high CHA. Also remember that paladins don't have proficiency in CON saves while fighters do. Paladin 2 can be nice to use warlock spell slots for smites. Paladin doesn't really fit your background though.

Are you dead set on playing melee? A sorlock (sorcerer/warlock) might fit your background better, especially since you stare manifesting powers early in life. You'd be able to dish out some serious damage with that combo. You could still use shillelagh and GFB if you wanted, though EB is superior quickend. Starting sorc would also give you proficiency in CON saves. If you use the original favored soul you'd also have proficiency in medium and shields. Can also dump STR since you won't need it for multiclass.