How good is the Mystic?

[Ravinsild]

Just out of curiosity I checked out the most "recent" (it was still a few months ago heh) Mystic UA article which had really fleshed it out with around 5 subclasses, psionic disciplines, the works really.

I really found "The Immortal" interesting, I was wondering how effective it would be simply using fists, or if there was a way to get "monk-like" fists to actually deal some real damage with them as a kung-fu master.

[Koren]

I understand most people see Mystic as fairly broken for various reasons.

I myself probably won't try it until it's finalized.

[Ravinsild]

I understand most people see Mystic as fairly broken for various reasons.

I myself probably won't try it until it's finalized.

Broken overpowered or Broken worthless?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Broken overpowered or Broken worthless?
Overpowered. It's got some intense nova potential (At 5th level, it can smite or blast for +5d10 damage, though the smites are pre-roll and doing so consumes ~1/5 of your daily resources) and a nice selection of all-day passives. I haven't done intense theorycrafting or seen one in play, though, so I dunno how they stack up in practice.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Just out of curiosity I checked out the most "recent" (it was still a few months ago heh) Mystic UA article which had really fleshed it out with around 5 subclasses, psionic disciplines, the works really.

I really found "The Immortal" interesting, I was wondering how effective it would be simply using fists, or if there was a way to get "monk-like" fists to actually deal some real damage with them as a kung-fu master.

Well you won't have extra attack, which is bad but there are alot of ways to load up on that one hit you have. Giant growth, psionic weapon, brute force, are all good for adding on damage to your fists.

It can be done, but you're going to have less accuracy then anybody else, due to lack of multiple attacks and no way to add +hit to fists. Monk is good because it gets so many chances to hit. You have to one punch everything for this work with mystic. But lets see


Level 11, Psionic Mastery > Giant Form + Ogre Form. Psychic Focus on Psionic Weapon. Use Reaction for Knock Back, hit someone into wall. Tavern Brawler feat or Lizardfolk race (1d4 and 1d6 UAS respectively ) for.....

1d4 + 1d4 +2d6 + 7d6 + Str. Alot of pp used up but alot of PUNCH power. Next turn you can use your bonus action to Lethal Torrent.

[Iamcreative]

Less powerful than a fullcaster, more powerful than a champion. Very versitile which is where the power comes from. Also very much a smooth powercurve, it starts out ok but kinda weak (but better than say a lvl1 wizard), ends more on the strong side but not great.

It is at its most powerful around mid levels, which is a super common place so I feel people think its OP. All in all its fine as long as you dont just through 1 or 2 encounters at a mid level party then call it a day.

[Ravinsild]

Well you won't have extra attack, which is bad but there are alot of ways to load up on that one hit you have. Giant growth, psionic weapon, brute force, are all good for adding on damage to your fists.

It can be done, but you're going to have less accuracy then anybody else, due to lack of multiple attacks and no way to add +hit to fists. Monk is good because it gets so many chances to hit. You have to one punch everything for this work with mystic. But lets see


Level 11, Psionic Mastery > Giant Form + Ogre Form. Psychic Focus on Psionic Weapon. Use Reaction for Knock Back, hit someone into wall. Tavern Brawler feat or Lizardfolk race (1d4 and 1d6 UAS respectively ) for.....

1d4 + 1d4 +2d6 + 7d6 + Str. Alot of pp used up but alot of PUNCH power. Next turn you can use your bonus action to Lethal Torrent.

Oh wow, I didn't notice that Mystics never get Extra Attack and none of the Psionic Disciplines give one either, like a Warlock's THirsting Blade invocation would :o

Either way I thought a Half-Orc jumping into the fray and turning into a giant with iron skin punching things in the face would be fun. I think it'd make for a poor multiclass but maybe Fighter 5 or Monk 5 could work? Monk 5/Mystic 15, plus monk seems...appropriate anyway with meditation and all those themes.

I realize that Mystic is an Int-based class, so a Hobgoblin would probably be more optimized, but I like Orcs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's not a bad plan. The upper end of Mystic definitely trails off; your psi limit maxes out at 7th, and your points basically plateu at 10th. I might go Fighter instead of Monk, though; the Mystic looks like they'll use a lot of bonus actions, and the Monk definitely does.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Oh wow, I didn't notice that Mystics never get Extra Attack and none of the Psionic Disciplines give one either, like a Warlock's THirsting Blade invocation would :o

Either way I thought a Half-Orc jumping into the fray and turning into a giant with iron skin punching things in the face would be fun. I think it'd make for a poor multiclass but maybe Fighter 5 or Monk 5 could work? Monk 5/Mystic 15, plus monk seems...appropriate anyway with meditation and all those themes.

I realize that Mystic is an Int-based class, so a Hobgoblin would probably be more optimized, but I like Orcs.

I don't really like the idea of multiclassing, mystic, espescially monk but it won't be bad. I guess you focus on spending your ki on Flurry of Blows, but you lose your bonus action for BURST. ....I guess the multiple attacks make up for it. Not sure would have to look at the numbers. Fighter 5 would be ok too, action surge is good on everyone. I would suggest Barbarian if not for the confirmation that barbarians can't use disciplines while raging. (Mantle of Fury on Frenzied Berserker for maximum ANGER its also MAD)

It think the mystic is generally ok balance wise. There are however small things that should change and maybe polished. It's really good at making concepts that were previously difficult or near impossible to replicate, and it really stands out in play.

[Ravinsild]

Do you guys think the Mystic will be reiterated and balanced out in time for that new book coming out? Or will it be a long time before it's official? I have a gut feeling one day, for sure, it will 100% be official myself. Just a question of...when? I guess the Revised Ranger took at least 2 years to even think about coming out though huh.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Do you guys think the Mystic will be reiterated and balanced out in time for that new book coming out? Or will it be a long time before it's official? I have a gut feeling one day, for sure, it will 100% be official myself. Just a question of...when? I guess the Revised Ranger took at least 2 years to even think about coming out though huh.
With three revisions, they're definitely working hard on it. I doubt it'll be in Xanthar's, though; they'd have crowed about it on the promo material, methinks.

[sightlessrealit]

At the moment in one of the games I play I'm playing a multi class of it.

4 in Soul Knife mystic
2 in Barbarian
1 in Rogue

I will say this, it is VERY unlikely you will miss & will deal decent damage.

With a +12 to with Advantage(and can even throw in Mystics bless) it's insane.

That being said, you can't do to much else.

[Ravinsild]

If I am understanding the Mystic properly, let's give an example, at level 14 you have a max capacity to spend 7 psionic points, but a total pool of 64. However you can only spend up to 7 per fight? Or only up to 7 per action of activating a discipline ability?

In addition you can only gain 1 passive benefit at a time per discipline focus, but you can spend your psionic points any way you want mixing and matching effects from different disciplines, right?

So you could have the focus on iron hide for the +1 AC bonus just passively, then turn on beastial form claws, giant form, brute strength and psionic weapon for some wicked damage so long as you have the points to spend? It's basically mana like in a video game and once you're out of mana you have to rest to get it back and cast more discipline abilities, right?

[DeAnno]

It has a high ceiling and a medium floor, I would say. Certain effects available are very strong or unavailable elsewhere; the partywide initiative buff, Animate Weapon, elemental summoning with no bad consequences, a lot of very high-precision teleport tools, etc. If you pick a bunch of goodstuff disciplines you get something that's a little like a Sorcerer but has a much larger number of spells known (Burst damage is mainly through Animate Weapon + Bonus Action buff of choice).

It does fall off in the 11-20 range because it has no true 6th level effects, but that's the worst thing you can say about it. Playing one at 9th level has felt extremely strong, for what its worth. (Disciplines: Nomadic Step, Nomadic Mind, Precog, Inquisition, Wood & Earth, Weather, Psionic Weapon)

[Scathain]

Broken overpowered or Broken worthless?

Definitely overpowered. A lot of abilities lock down foes into oblivion, to the point of making an enchanter wizard blush. Some abilities straight up don't have a saving throw associated with them. It's not a bad class though, just takes a weathered DM eye to make changes as you see fit.

[lperkins2]

The v3 mystic is fine. It gets something of a bad rap for being over powered, but it doesn't actually work out that way. I think the reason people think it is so powerful is all of its neat tricks are baked into the class itself, compared to spellcasters, where the power is from the spells rather than right in the same short PDF.

For example, the go-to nova ability they get is psionic blast, 1d8 psychic damage per psi point spent. At level 5, with a psi cap of 5, they can do 5d8 damage to a single target, no save. Average damage of 22.5. They can do this 5 times a day.

A wizard at the same level can do 8d6 damage to every target in an area, dex save for half. If there are 2 creatures in the area, this works out to one full 8d6 assuming both make their save, and increases with more creatures, or failed saves. The wizard can do this 3 times a day (arcane recovery).

The strength of the mystic is from the passive, situationally useful, bonuses it gets, which can be potent sometimes, but compare favourably to other classes' features. The one thing I've seen with mystics in play is they tend to be highly mobile characters, which both means they are hard to pin down, and they can often reach and kill high priority targets quickly.

As for how to make a mystic that uses unarmed strike effectively, without multiclassing monk, order of the Immortal is probably the way to go, and take the Giant Growth discipline. Unarmed strikes at a range of 10 feet base, plus gain another 5' reach and extra 1d4 damage for 2 psi. At 10th level you can increase your reach to 20 feet, and do an extra 2d6, assuming you can fit a huge creature where you are adventuring. The secondary reach and size increases take up concentration, so you'll need to keep out of enemy reach, but that shouldn't be too difficult when you can reach 15-20 feet.

[poolio]

They are really good, in a game with a buddy playing one, and he pretty much routinely steamrolls at least one encounter per game, the rest of us don't really mind though cause the stuff he comes up with is brilliant and usually hilarious lol

[lperkins2]

They are really good, in a game with a buddy playing one, and he pretty much routinely steamrolls at least one encounter per game, the rest of us don't really mind though cause the stuff he comes up with is brilliant and usually hilarious lol

How many encounters per day do you guys normally have?

[Jamesps]

The mystic has a few select overpowered abilities that are just flat out better than equivalent level spells by spell casters. They have a second level ability that's like blur but only takes a bonus action to cast, has no components (so it can't be countered), lasts ten times as long and gives you an additional ability to turned missed attacks back on your attacker. All of that for a second level ability is just ridiculous when blur is the same level.

Giant growth gives you 10 temporary hp that don't wear off, plus makes you large size and increases your damage (though these abilities are concentration). Compare that to false life which gives you fewer temporary hp for a limited duration and no rider.

I don't think the smiting abilities are that strong as they're nothing that a sorcadin couldn't compete with (and wear heavy armor while doing), but if you really comb through the abilities you can find some that objectively just blow similar leveled abilities of spell casters out of the water.

Add that to some pretty ridiculous skill bloat. If they're built right they can actually compete with rogues and bards in out of combat competence through a combination of bonus skills and the ability to get advantage on many of their skills either semi-permanently through their focus, or temporarily through the use of a Talent or Discipline. The worst part actually isn't their powerful abilities though. It's actually possible to build a Mystic that really can't do much of anything. The Immortal is in particular danger of this as they're encouraged to engage in melee, but without the right discipline support they're pretty lousy at it.

So depending on the person building them you end up with some Mystics that are ridiculously powerful and versatile at early levels, and some that can't do anything of consequence. Core classes have much better upper and lower limits of power.

[Findulidas]

How many encounters per day do you guys normally have?

On most campaigns Ive had 6-8. Sometimes less sometimes a bit more. One GM liked 1-2 but then realized that it was bad when I just blew everything as fast as possible and made the encounters silly.

[robbie374]

I don't know the class super well, but they do have:
- basically the best cantrip in the game with a way to buff it
- a discipline that gives them proficiency in any skill whenever they want (like Knowledge Cleric Channel Divinity, but unlimited)
- they have a first-level spell like Mage Armor that is better than everybody else at AC 14 + Dex.

It seems to me that the Mystic can dabble in lots of classes, and do so to an extreme. I don't know how it plays out, but their base abilities are incredible.

[jaappleton]

I played a Mystic.

It's.... odd.

It's a reverse engineered Warlock using the spell point system of the DMG.

And the Mystic is capable of doing a lot. However, just like with spells, most of it requires Concentration. And while the Mystic as a whole can cover many different bases, and can substitute for several different classes, it can't out-do those classes. It can fill in for a Rogue with several Nomadic disciplines, but can't outperform a Rogue, for example. It can fill in for a Wizard, it can fill in for a Cleric, but it can't out-Cleric a Cleric.

It's not broken. Just like how a Bard can cover many different roles, so can the Mystic. But just like a Bard, I find its far better to specialize and excel at something instead of being OK at doing many different things.

[DeTess]

Personally, the only thing I consider truly broken is the focus for the Nomad's Mind discipline. This one allows you to have proficiency with any one skill or language you need, with a bonus action required to switch it out. It might not help in combat, but this is a major boon in exploration and social encounters.

[Ravinsild]

I played a Mystic.

It's.... odd.

It's a reverse engineered Warlock using the spell point system of the DMG.

And the Mystic is capable of doing a lot. However, just like with spells, most of it requires Concentration. And while the Mystic as a whole can cover many different bases, and can substitute for several different classes, it can't out-do those classes. It can fill in for a Rogue with several Nomadic disciplines, but can't outperform a Rogue, for example. It can fill in for a Wizard, it can fill in for a Cleric, but it can't out-Cleric a Cleric.

It's not broken. Just like how a Bard can cover many different roles, so can the Mystic. But just like a Bard, I find its far better to specialize and excel at something instead of being OK at doing many different things.

If you've ever played SMITE or League of Legends, the Order of the Immortal with Giant Form and Bestial Form, etc reminds me of Cu Chulainn or Gnar...and a little bit of the Elfman guy from Fairy Tale. Jumping into the frey and transforming into a huge form with super toughness and so forth sounded very cool. I didn't exactly look at the other Orders but I'll review them over again.

I'm guessing Order of the Immortal is a great tank spec? Or at least bruiser/Tanky dps?

[jaappleton]

If you've ever played SMITE or League of Legends, the Order of the Immortal with Giant Form and Bestial Form, etc reminds me of Cu Chulainn or Gnar...and a little bit of the Elfman guy from Fairy Tale. Jumping into the frey and transforming into a huge form with super toughness and so forth sounded very cool. I didn't exactly look at the other Orders but I'll review them over again.

I'm guessing Order of the Immortal is a great tank spec? Or at least bruiser/Tanky dps?

That's the thing: Your chosen Order doesn't have to be what you specialize in. You can be Immortal with 4 Nomadic Disciplines. Or Awakened with a bunch of Wu Jen.

Remember, each Order (except Soul Knife) gets 2 bonus disciplines associated with that Order. HOWEVER, nothing prevents you from training out of those bonus disciplines as you level up.

So you can be Immortal with all Wu Jen Disciplines.

[Ravinsild]

That's the thing: Your chosen Order doesn't have to be what you specialize in. You can be Immortal with 4 Nomadic Disciplines. Or Awakened with a bunch of Wu Jen.

Remember, each Order (except Soul Knife) gets 2 bonus disciplines associated with that Order. HOWEVER, nothing prevents you from training out of those bonus disciplines as you level up.

So you can be Immortal with all Wu Jen Disciplines.

Oh...I mean...just like I guess Evocation Wizards don't only have to learn Evocation spells it kind of makes sense, but it feels so counterintuitive. I figured you could only discipline within your order..

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oh...I mean...just like I guess Evocation Wizards don't only have to learn Evocation spells it kind of makes sense, but it feels so counterintuitive. I figured you could only discipline within your order..
Nope! You start out with a 2:1 ratio, but you can adjust to taste as you level up.

[poolio]

How many encounters per day do you guys normally have?

There have been games where we had three or four, sometimes the whole game is one big encounter, and a couple where we didn't have any combat at all, but there would almost always be something he would come up with a way to singlehandedly deal with the situation at hand,

To be honest most of what he does could probably be done with a wizard as well, he's just really cleaver lol

[Arelai]

I've played several mystics now and I will not play another one unless every player is going to play a mystic. It is absolutely the strongest class bar none(the possible exception being wizards with level 7+spells).

They get an insane amount of abilities, they can do anything any other class can do-but they do it better and with more options.

[Matticusrex]

majority of it is perfectly balanced and if you allow wizards in your game then you wont run in to any problems allowing a mystic.

[KarlMarx]

In my experience it's very powerful, and very versatile. It is definitely best, relatively speaking, at lower levels, fading out as the rest of the party advances, but even then it is still quite decent (though, if your DM allows it, I'd definitely reccomend multiclassing).

I played one in a recent campaign, an Eladrin Immortal Mystic 3 (free longsword proficiency for the win!). I routinely outdid the rest of the party in both damage dealt and damage received, essentially functioning as a tank when the Druid couldn't afford to use Wild Shape and focusing on battlefield control otherwise. Admittedly, Immortals get a very strong level 3 ability, and I had an 18 in my Int--so was getting 4 thp/round--and the remainder of the party was much less optimized that I was, but still--even a mid-optimization mystic is capable of impressive things. The DM rarely threw more than 1 combat encounter at us per day, but I misread the table and thought I only had 4 pp at 3rd level, so even with so few encounters I generally saved them for battlefield control as opposed to going nova; thus, I'd reckon that these factors essentially cancelled each other out.

Plus, the campaign revolved around exploration and interaction with unknown cultures, so telepathy was a huge plus.

[Ravinsild]

I get the general census it's from either brokenly OP to "just fine" but overall well liked. Nobody is trashing it like PHB Ranger so far, so do you think it may become official fairly soon with a few tweaks or toned down a touch?

[jaappleton]

I get the general census it's from either brokenly OP to "just fine" but overall well liked. Nobody is trashing it like PHB Ranger so far, so do you think it may become official fairly soon with a few tweaks or toned down a touch?

By 'fairly soon', not before the end of 2017. That's been pretty much confirmed via Twitter.

And no, I'm not going to go scouring Twitter for something I know that I read. Because someone always says, "Source?"

[DracoKnight]

By 'fairly soon', not before the end of 2017. That's been pretty much confirmed via Twitter.

And no, I'm not going to go scouring Twitter for something I know that I read. Because someone always says, "Source?"

I'm not going to dig up the Tweet either, but I'll vouch for ya, cuz I know I read it too.

[jaappleton]

In one way I think the Mystic absolutely excels is as a blaster.

Wu Jen get to lift spells from the Wizard, but let's look beyond that.

Lightning Bolt VS Lightning Leap
Slightly less damage and a smaller range (It isn't 100ft) in exchange for a teleport. Fair. If you're surrounded, you can deal a lot of damage AND escape.

Fireball VS Detonate
Slightly less damage, now targets Con, and adds Prone, same radius. I'll take that trade almost every time.

There's also totally unique 'blast' spells, like Mind Storm. 6d8 Psychic, vs Wisdom, and targets are forced to have Disadvantage on their next saving throw?

All those are at the same cost as 3rd level spells.

That's not including some slightly more costly abilities, particularly Wall of Thunder and Thunder Clap, the latter of which is 8d6 Thunder VS Con and STUNS. Wow.

And all those are accessible by any Mystic, it doesn't have to be by Wu Jen. So you can have Medium Armor and Shield proficiency with these and have these abilities, and play like a Cleric via Avatar. Or be an Immortal, gain temporary HP, and blast away with these.

As an Alternative Wizard, I do believe the Mystic can excel. They don't really get the equivalent of 9th level spells, but those were never really balanced anyway, in my eyes.

[JBPuffin]

My dad, sort-of-brother and I did a session with 3 mystics of different orders and a gunslinger fighter, all around level 4, and they didn't seem crazy powerful. It's definitely a "13th class" in that nobody does things the way it does, and their unique tricks really make them a worthwhile addition to the game. Now that I think about it, if I can get my current DM to allow them, I might go Arcane Trickster 6/Soulknife or Wu Jen 14 in my current campaign rather than AT 6/Wizard 14...

[ScathachOfSkye]

One of my players is currently running an Order of the Immortal Mystic in my campaign, so with that experience these are my thoughts about them so far.

A few of the Mystic's class features and Discipline abilities are still broken in that they either are overpowered, underpowered, or simply do not function as written.

Due to this, a DM will need to fix some of these abilities or outright ban them individually.

Examples of this include the Psionic Mastery class feature being poorly worded and its actual use as explained by Sage Advice makes it pretty terrible, Wall of Wood having 100 hit points per section makes it absurdly powerful, and the entire Celerity discipline is terrible and worse than most other options available.

Other abilities of the Mystic are largely dependent upon how a DM rules they work or what enemies are faced.

Abilities that target INT saves, which the Mystic has many of, can be extremely powerful when used against enemies that have low Intelligence scores as they have almost guaranteed success. However, the Mystic can also struggle, depending on the build, against enemies that are immune or resist many of its abilities. As the Mystic must select families of abilities, it can be sometimes suffer from overspecialization.

Ultimately, the Mystic is a class that very much requires the DM to work alongside the player in order to ensure that everything goes smoothly, but I think that if this is done, the Mystic can fill a niche that was missing in current 5e and is a good edition to the game of about the right power level. I don't think that it is 100 percent ready for a published release, but it is getting close.

[furby076]

They are really good, in a game with a buddy playing one, and he pretty much routinely steamrolls at least one encounter per game, the rest of us don't really mind though cause the stuff he comes up with is brilliant and usually hilarious lol

Can you get us some of these techniques/tricks?


I've played several mystics now and I will not play another one unless every player is going to play a mystic. It is absolutely the strongest class bar none(the possible exception being wizards with level 7+spells).

They get an insane amount of abilities, they can do anything any other class can do-but they do it better and with more options.
They have the potential to get lots of abilities, if you look at the entire list of powers, but in reality they can only pick so many disciplines. On the other hand, clerics get every spell for their level; wizards can potentially find/buy every spell available.

Mystics are versatile, for sure, - that's because they can pick on the fly and they have a good amount of choices. Wizards/Clerics have to be a bit more forward thinking to do
Mystics have their focus ability - which is cool - but some of them downright stink (e.g., Nomadic step). Some are very situational. And you don't get them all.

My basis for determining if something is broken is to see how it compares to other abilities. An ability can be somewhat more powerful/weaker than other stuff for it not to be considered broken. Also, if it's a signature ability, it's ok if it's more powerful than what other classes can do.
Psionic blast is referenced a lot because there is no attack roll, and no save: 1d8/psi point, range 60 ft. I find this the easiest to debunk - i mean it's not that hard if you look beyond ONE aspect

Then I find a 3rd level damage spell
1) Fireball at 150 ft, 8d6 per target, and can impact 20 foot radius of targets. Save half
2) Lightning bolt is 100 ft, 8d6 per target for all creatures in a line. Save half
3) Spiritual weapon at 60 ft, 2d8 + stat, lasts for 1 minute (bonus action), attack roll

So...Psionic blast doesn't have that much going for it other than auto-hit. Plus it still does less damage than fireball, lightning bolt and a cleric spell (even when not upcast to level 3)!

Let's look at something else:
Cloak of Air: 3 psi points, instigate disadvantage, 10 minutes, concentration, can use reaction to force creature to hit itself (1 per round)

Competes with
1) PRotection from Evil/Good: Lvl 1; only specific types of creatures (limitation); provides disadvantage on attacks; and while doesn't allow the reaction retaliation, it does protect vs some spell affects
2) Invisibility: Concentration up to 1 hour; Targets have disadvantage on you; and you get advantage on them. Plus, invisibility
3) Mirror Image: 1 minute (no concentration); can be used at least 3 times (more if the enemy doesn't hit the illusion AC)

So, the above 3 spells have advantages and disadvantages to Cloak of Air. It doesn't handedly beat them.

last one before bed time (mind you, i am randomly picking powers from my awakened mind...not cherry picking)
Mind Storm: 5-7 (CL 5-9 spell equiv) psi points; 60 range, 20 ft radius; Wis save or take 6d8, up cast to 8d8 dmg; target suffers disad on all saves until next turn

Competes with
1) Spirit Guardians: Range Self (15 ft radius); halves enemy speed, Save or take 3d8 dmg, with potential upcast to 5d8. Duration up to 10 minutes
2) Fireball & Lightening Bolt - only they do more range and more damage at the min level. They just don't add the disadvantage

At 5th level, my Human Paladin can do:
1d6+1 (mgic weapon) + 4 str + 2 (dueling) dmg per hit. Polearm master = 3 attacks...so possible to do 2d6 +1d4 + 21 dmg per round. Not including smites (possibly +6d8 if only using level 1 spell slots). Plus more HP and more AC (full plate + shield) that are always on

So - the mystic abilities give variety, but they lose out in some ways. Less damage, more effects. Not exactly an imbalanced trade. I think the mystic shtick is to be versatile

I'll have to admit, my awakened mystic is a skill monkey and a half - but that doesn't make her OP. She is good at many things, but not great. Creativity will make her a powerhouse, and a lack of creativity will make her a bore and weak.

[djreynolds]

It is way OVERPOWERED

[Random Sanity]

Perhaps a bit too strong at level 10, but they fall off sharply after that, as their raw power basically hardcaps at the same point other classes start to get their big guns.

Needs some serious adjustment to their leveling power curve.

[Ravinsild]

Perhaps a bit too strong at level 10, but they fall off sharply after that, as their raw power basically hardcaps at the same point other classes start to get their big guns.

Needs some serious adjustment to their leveling power curve.

Are there any other classes with similar issues? Having created my own class recently (sort of, it's more like just a 5e paladin and 4e blackguard conversion in 1 tbh) I'm curious to see how mine plays out.

Do any other classes have large power spikes at certain levels that overshadow other classes and eventually even out, or is the balance in 5e such that each class is relatively same all the way up?

[Ruebin Rybnik]

I am currently playing a lvl 4 Immortal Mistic in a COS campaign. For 5 of my 17 points i get 20 AC, all attacks have disadv, one miss forced to attack self for 10 minutes. Add that to the fact that i get 5 thp at the start of my turn. That's only 2 of my 4 disciplines (Mastery of Air, Beastial Form) I also have Psionic Restoration for healing/stabilize/revivify, and Nomadic Step for Teleportation shenanigans which include a reactionary +4 AC boost.

I'm pretty sure my DM is currently trying to figure out a way to kill my character with TPK or just straight up DM fiat. That or the strange questions regarding my character recently might foreshadow my overthrowing Strahd and taking control of Barovia. Because by lvl 9 ill be a force to recon with.

So lvl 5 ill probably take Telepathic Contact which will allow me to control other creatures eventually.(laughs maniacally)

[Waterdeep Merch]

With the current v3, I've played an Immortal and Wu Jen. They're noticeably most powerful at early levels, have a practically perfect balance somewhere between 5 and 12, then trail off towards the end of their career, though never so much that they end up bad (unless you're deliberately comparing them to heavyweight late game classes like wizard, which they'll play second fiddle to late).

They get tremendous flexibility and, as many have pointed out, a few abilities that are flat out better than the alternatives in other classes. In play, this is actually for the best- they're the reasons the class stands out, and without them (most of them, some really are super cheese. Psychic Inquisition and Telepathic Contact, I'm looking at you) the class wouldn't have an identity. They're weak in other ways- while you can do a whole hell of a lot, you can never really do all of it at the same time, and attempting to will suck down all of your resources fast. They tend to be a lot tankier than the other casters thanks to some of these abilities and can blast shockingly well- which any other caster can tell you is generally a poor use of your resources, so actually being viable shouldn't be held against it.

Mid to late game in my experience, they're way more balanced than equivalent casters. Early, they're a bit on the overpowered side given the right power choices.

They're also super fun, with great flavor in most of those disciplines.

[Elric VIII]

I really like this class for the fact that it's abilities are incredibly customizable while not being spells. It lets you realize so many different concepts.

I love spellcasters, but this guy lets me incorporate those mechanics into a seemingly nonmagical character. There's a reason so many people loved the Tashalatora (sp?) Psionic monk.

As for its power level, it is only OP if your group does not respect bonus actions or only cares about HP damage for encounters (wrt the immortal). It's a difficult class to DM for if you are a novice, but it's not much worse than a wizard if you players have good system mastery.

[The_Ditto]

Can you get us some of these techniques/tricks?


They have the potential to get lots of abilities, if you look at the entire list of powers, but in reality they can only pick so many disciplines. On the other hand, clerics get every spell for their level; wizards can potentially find/buy every spell available.

Mystics are versatile, for sure, - that's because they can pick on the fly and they have a good amount of choices. Wizards/Clerics have to be a bit more forward thinking to do
Mystics have their focus ability - which is cool - but some of them downright stink (e.g., Nomadic step). Some are very situational. And you don't get them all.

My basis for determining if something is broken is to see how it compares to other abilities. An ability can be somewhat more powerful/weaker than other stuff for it not to be considered broken. Also, if it's a signature ability, it's ok if it's more powerful than what other classes can do.
Psionic blast is referenced a lot because there is no attack roll, and no save: 1d8/psi point, range 60 ft. I find this the easiest to debunk - i mean it's not that hard if you look beyond ONE aspect

Then I find a 3rd level damage spell
1) Fireball at 150 ft, 8d6 per target, and can impact 20 foot radius of targets. Save half
2) Lightning bolt is 100 ft, 8d6 per target for all creatures in a line. Save half
3) Spiritual weapon at 60 ft, 2d8 + stat, lasts for 1 minute (bonus action), attack roll

So...Psionic blast doesn't have that much going for it other than auto-hit. Plus it still does less damage than fireball, lightning bolt and a cleric spell (even when not upcast to level 3)!

Let's look at something else:
Cloak of Air: 3 psi points, instigate disadvantage, 10 minutes, concentration, can use reaction to force creature to hit itself (1 per round)

Competes with
1) PRotection from Evil/Good: Lvl 1; only specific types of creatures (limitation); provides disadvantage on attacks; and while doesn't allow the reaction retaliation, it does protect vs some spell affects
2) Invisibility: Concentration up to 1 hour; Targets have disadvantage on you; and you get advantage on them. Plus, invisibility
3) Mirror Image: 1 minute (no concentration); can be used at least 3 times (more if the enemy doesn't hit the illusion AC)

So, the above 3 spells have advantages and disadvantages to Cloak of Air. It doesn't handedly beat them.

last one before bed time (mind you, i am randomly picking powers from my awakened mind...not cherry picking)
Mind Storm: 5-7 (CL 5-9 spell equiv) psi points; 60 range, 20 ft radius; Wis save or take 6d8, up cast to 8d8 dmg; target suffers disad on all saves until next turn

Competes with
1) Spirit Guardians: Range Self (15 ft radius); halves enemy speed, Save or take 3d8 dmg, with potential upcast to 5d8. Duration up to 10 minutes
2) Fireball & Lightening Bolt - only they do more range and more damage at the min level. They just don't add the disadvantage

At 5th level, my Human Paladin can do:
1d6+1 (mgic weapon) + 4 str + 2 (dueling) dmg per hit. Polearm master = 3 attacks...so possible to do 2d6 +1d4 + 21 dmg per round. Not including smites (possibly +6d8 if only using level 1 spell slots). Plus more HP and more AC (full plate + shield) that are always on

So - the mystic abilities give variety, but they lose out in some ways. Less damage, more effects. Not exactly an imbalanced trade. I think the mystic shtick is to be versatile

I'll have to admit, my awakened mystic is a skill monkey and a half - but that doesn't make her OP. She is good at many things, but not great. Creativity will make her a powerhouse, and a lack of creativity will make her a bore and weak.

Excellent explanation ... I think anyone claiming the entire class is "overpowered!!" should read over your reply here . VERY carefully ..

Yes, it's still in development.
Yes, a couple powers are broken ...
Yes, a couple powers are ridiculously weak ..

but overall ... they are no different .. no stronger / weaker .. than a wizard or paladin or rogue .. (depending on the build/power) you are looking at.

For those who are claiming it is overpowered .. please please PLEASE .. post an example of a broken build.
Let's see concrete examples .. not just prejudiced cries of "I don't like psionics, so I'll call every version of it overpowered". Show us ...

And then we can discuss .. we can agree "Yes, that 1 power you break is - indeed broken ... apply a DM beatstick .. and rest of class is fine."
or perhaps .. "well, no, compare that nova strike, to a Paladin or Rogue/Assassion .. or something ... and note that the mystic can only do it about 4-5 times per day .. and the paladin and rogue can do it ALL DAY LONG (with more dmg) ... "
Immortal too tanky because of Iron Durability ? Compare to Druid with their bottomless HP pool ... *shrug* ...

Overall .. not broken .. just different.

Overall, I feel it's well done .. yes, still rough around edges .. yes, some things need clarifying/fixing *cough*psionic mastery*cough* ... but overall .. really good progress .. it's mapping over top other casters just fine.

[dejarnjc]

For combat purposes the class is probably on the weak side.

For getting past obstacles / flexibility / information gathering purposes the class is definitely on the strong side.



Although, I must say that despite what I say above, the class appears to be more flexible than it really is. If you actually play a mystic you quickly find that many of the abilities it gets through its disciplines are redundant as another discipline already gives you that same mechanical benefit.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Although, I must say that despite what I say above, the class appears to be more flexible than it really is. If you actually play a mystic you quickly find that many of the abilities it gets through its disciplines are redundant as another discipline already gives you that same mechanical benefit.
It definitely feels like it might get broken up a bit in a final draft. The Wu Jen in particular is so distinct from the others that I have a hard time imagining it ending up in the same class as the Soulknife.

[Sception]

currently playing a level 4 wu-jen in Ravenloft. Not really building for power, just kind of casually winging it with nomadic step and masteries of water, force, and light & dark. So far the only stand out problem has been the light & dark ability so summon two shadows, fully under my control, with a standard action and the resource equivalent of a level 2 spell. The ability doesn't scale at all, but when you get it at 3rd level it feels too good. Should probably start at one shadow, with one more shadow per two extra psi points spent?

Plus, the ability doesn't address the spawning ability of the shadows. The summoned shadows probably shouldn't create spawn, but if they do the ability is simultaneously more trouble than it's worth and, potentially, dramatically more powerful than it even is already.

[Jamesps]

but overall ... they are no different .. no stronger / weaker .. than a wizard or paladin or rogue .. (depending on the build/power) you are looking at.

For those who are claiming it is overpowered .. please please PLEASE .. post an example of a broken build.
Let's see concrete examples .. not just prejudiced cries of "I don't like psionics, so I'll call every version of it overpowered". Show us ...


3rd Level Mystic, Subclass Avatar
Race: Human
Feat: Resilient Constitution or Sentinel

Abilities of Note: Mantle of Rage, Mastery of Air and Mastery of Water

Tactics: Walk into battle with mantle of rage focused on. Everyone next to you gets disadvantage to attack your allies. Everyone gets disadvantage to attack you. You have 20 temp hp from back at the beginning of the day when you used your ice-sheet armor, but if they do manage to hit your 18ish AC with disadvantage to their attacks and manage to do 20hp over the course of the battle then you can use a bonus action to refresh it all. Use your talents to deal damage and/or inflict status conditions. Your psionic point buy in for fights is 3 per battle (unless you have two battles in the course of ten minutes, in which case you only have to spend this once) , plus 3 at the beginning of the day plus 3 more for emergencies.

Result: Every enemy close to you has disadvantage on all attacks. Every enemy that tries to deal with you has disadvantage on all attacks /and/ has to get through a nigh-endless supply of temp hp, all while being forced to hit themselves when they fail. Control spells don't really do much to you because you don't actually need actions to fill your roll in the party. You could be charmed, afraid, and paralyzed and still do what you do.

[DeTess]

3rd Level Mystic, Subclass Avatar
Race: Human
Feat: Resilient Constitution or Sentinel

Abilities of Note: Mantle of Rage, Mastery of Air and Mastery of Water

Tactics: Walk into battle with mantle of rage focused on. Everyone next to you gets disadvantage to attack your allies. Everyone gets disadvantage to attack you. You have 20 temp hp from back at the beginning of the day when you used your ice-sheet armor, but if they do manage to hit your 18ish AC with disadvantage to their attacks and manage to do 20hp over the course of the battle then you can use a bonus action to refresh it all. Use your talents to deal damage and/or inflict status conditions. Your psionic point buy in for fights is 3 per battle (unless you have two battles in the course of ten minutes, in which case you only have to spend this once) , plus 3 at the beginning of the day plus 3 more for emergencies.

Result: Every enemy close to you has disadvantage on all attacks. Every enemy that tries to deal with you has disadvantage on all attacks /and/ has to get through a nigh-endless supply of temp hp, all while being forced to hit themselves when they fail. Control spells don't really do much to you because you don't actually need actions to fill your roll in the party. You could be charmed, afraid, and paralyzed and still do what you do.

This sounds rather impressive, as long as all enemies are willing to stand around you, and there are no archers and/or spell casters. However, the thing that gives you 20 temporary hitpoints is the equivalent of a level 2 spell, and there are spells out there with similar effects. The thing that gives enemies disadvantage to hit you is a concentration effect, and therefore vulnerable to being interrupted when you do take damage. All in all, though this build is good at what it does, it's not really that disruptive if the DM does not constantly have you fight mindless enemies in 10ft wide corridors.

[djreynolds]

The mystic is almost like designed for another place.......... or wait it is like Ebberon

It competes with casters, skill monkeys and martial types almost simultaneously.

I mean for a fighter just to be a great archer he has to dump mostly everything into

The mystic is really good, if not great, at all the 3 pillars of the game and the mystic can do it all in combat. Great defense, great offense, self buffing and can team buff.

__________________________________________________ _________________________

A battlemaster at 10th level has 5 maneuvers, but for this example we will say the battlemaster will rest 3 times. He has the potential of 15 maneuvers for 15d8 for the day

a 10th level mystic has 64 psi points and can use 7 of them at a pop. He can 7d10 with nomadic arrow/psionic weapon all post hit, 7d10 he can drop a hit about 9 times a day if he uses all 64 psi points

A 20th level archer with sharpshooter might be able to compete with a 10th level mystic

The fact that this class starts the day with all of these psi points and can unleash them in a huge nova is insane.

And mind thrust is as good as eldritch blast

__________________________________________________ ____________________

The mystic is awesome, in fact we too awesome. We had to ask a player to tone it down in CoS, which thankfully the player did.

If you want to play one, that's fine, but there will be gripes at the table. It is very strong.

[Jamesps]

This sounds rather impressive, as long as all enemies are willing to stand around you, and there are no archers and/or spell casters. However, the thing that gives you 20 temporary hitpoints is the equivalent of a level 2 spell, and there are spells out there with similar effects. The thing that gives enemies disadvantage to hit you is a concentration effect, and therefore vulnerable to being interrupted when you do take damage. All in all, though this build is good at what it does, it's not really that disruptive if the DM does not constantly have you fight mindless enemies in 10ft wide corridors.

When judging whether a class is unbalanced you don't judge it against hypothetical encounters that could foil it. You judge it against what other classes designed for the role can do in equivalent situations.

There is no other class that could pull off this level of tanking, much less by level 3. Mystic isn't even designed to tank, they just happen to be ridonkulously good at it.

Also, no, there are no other 2nd level spells that are as good defensively as ice sheet or blurry form. The equivalent are an upcast false life (12.5hp, takes a full action, has a time limit) and Aid (takes a full action, worth 20ish hp but spread out across the party, can't be replaced once gone). The equivalent to the blurry form is blur which, while a really good spell, is horrible by comparison.

[T0kumei]

It's good fun playing a Kenku Awakened Mystic tempting to overcome his racial curse via elevating his mind. Took mostly Awakened and Nomad disciplines the only thing I tok that is different is the psi weapon discipline in case someone engages me in close combat. He been versatile but not overpowered at all despite all the whining about the class. I loved playing as psions and battle minds back in 4th so I'm looking forward to the finished class.

[furby076]

It is way OVERPOWERED
Well said. I think you should twitter it. i hear the best time is at 5AM, while sitting on the toilet


I am currently playing a lvl 4 Immortal Mistic in a COS campaign. For 5 of my 17 points i get 20 AC, all attacks have disadv, one miss forced to attack self for 10 minutes. Add that to the fact that i get 5 thp at the start of my turn. That's only 2 of my 4 disciplines (Mastery of Air, Beastial Form) I also have Psionic Restoration for healing/stabilize/revivify, and Nomadic Step for Teleportation shenanigans which include a reactionary +4 AC boost.

I'm pretty sure my DM is currently trying to figure out a way to kill my character with TPK or just straight up DM fiat. That or the strange questions regarding my character recently might foreshadow my overthrowing Strahd and taking control of Barovia. Because by lvl 9 ill be a force to recon with.

So lvl 5 ill probably take Telepathic Contact which will allow me to control other creatures eventually.(laughs maniacally)

1) how many rounds did you have to spend casting all of those abilities?
2) After that first fight of the day, what are you doing the rest of the day? In Ravenloft, sniffing glue is a good way to dull the pain as the minions set out to eat your eyeballs since you are totally out of psi points

I'm pretty sure, at level 10, you will be trying to figure out a way to kill your character or just straight up bring in a new character. Look at the entire class, not just one aspect.




They get tremendous flexibility and, as many have pointed out, a few abilities that are flat out better than the alternatives in other classes. In play, this is actually for the best- they're the reasons the class stands out, and without them (most of them, some really are super cheese. Psychic Inquisition and Telepathic Contact, I'm looking at you) the class wouldn't have an identity.

And that's the key thing. Every class should, hopefully, have a few things they do superbly well. In a way, each class should have some abilities which are "broken". It's what makes them awesome. Now, not enough to melt a campaign, but enough to make the player smile. I think one of the Warlocks amazing abilities is to regain spells during short rest. Wow, that's amazing. FOr a paladin - burn through 3 smites in 1 round and make your DM cry. Barbarians and druids -> Hit me again, hit me harder. Come, hit me baby one more time...screw that, hit me ten more times - i got this. Wizards - "Kim Jong Un tried to hire me. His country is now a piece of glass". Not sure what rangers and rogues contribute lol ;)


For combat purposes the class is probably on the weak side.

For getting past obstacles / flexibility / information gathering purposes the class is definitely on the strong side.

Although, I must say that despite what I say above, the class appears to be more flexible than it really is. If you actually play a mystic you quickly find that many of the abilities it gets through its disciplines are redundant as another discipline already gives you that same mechanical benefit..

And here I think is where the class is supposed to shine...doing a lot of different (non combat) things on a decently good basis. Not a prime time expert, but still good. As mentioned, many of the abilities in a discipline are redundant. I think this was done on purposes so each discipline has a combat offense, combat defense and non-combat utility function - but long term some of them just overlap. Plus, mystics don't get all disciplines.


3rd Level Mystic, Subclass Avatar
Race: Human
Feat: Resilient Constitution or Sentinel

Abilities of Note: Mantle of Rage, Mastery of Air and Mastery of Water

Tactics: Walk into battle with mantle of rage focused on. Everyone next to you gets disadvantage to attack your allies. Everyone gets disadvantage to attack you. You have 20 temp hp from back at the beginning of the day when you used your ice-sheet armor, but if they do manage to hit your 18ish AC with disadvantage to their attacks and manage to do 20hp over the course of the battle then you can use a bonus action to refresh it all. Use your talents to deal damage and/or inflict status conditions. Your psionic point buy in for fights is 3 per battle (unless you have two battles in the course of ten minutes, in which case you only have to spend this once) , plus 3 at the beginning of the day plus 3 more for emergencies.

Result: Every enemy close to you has disadvantage on all attacks. Every enemy that tries to deal with you has disadvantage on all attacks /and/ has to get through a nigh-endless supply of temp hp, all while being forced to hit themselves when they fail. Control spells don't really do much to you because you don't actually need actions to fill your roll in the party. You could be charmed, afraid, and paralyzed and still do what you do.

1) You have 14 psi points. You can do this 2x per day, assuming you only use 2 psi points for other things. Can you be charmed, afraid or paralyzed and still have concentration up?
-Crown of Rage: Enemies within 5 feet of you, who attacks someone other than you, does so at disadvantage. 1) let's assume you have it on all the time, so you dont use your other focuses and 2) the enemy can move 5 feet away from you and still be in melee with your buddy.
-Frozen Sanctuary (3 pts) - 20 temp hp (in the morning), bonus action
-Cloak of Air (3 points, conc) - BOnus Action Attacks against you had disad. 1/round can make creature hit itself if creature misses you
-AC 18ish....chainmail + shield

Now let's see how silly your superior combat tactics really work:
1) Enemy can just go to range and hit you from there
2) SPell caster will giggle. THey will also thank you for getting all your friends into a tight group - cause, AOE
3) You assume your allies will want to hug you
4) you assume the DM enemies are mindless and won't stay out of your 5ft range while hitting your friends. Here is a simple ascii pic: EAY (e = enemy, A = ALly, Y = you)


You made a specific situation where your character could POTENTIALLY shine, if the DM played mindless melee creatures. This isn't even remotely broken - this is you just saying "oh look i can do this, i'm awesome"...in the meantime, your DM is not an idiot and neither are his critters with average int or higher. Plus, during these battles, you are not really doing anything. You have 2 psi points left to burn. I find it difficult to believe you will do no other spell casting abilities during the day.

While this is happening. My paladin mystic steps to the enemy spell caster -and melts his face in one round. That is infinitely more useful than your pure defense tactic.


When judging whether a class is unbalanced you don't judge it against hypothetical encounters that could foil it. You judge it against what other classes designed for the role can do in equivalent situations.

There is no other class that could pull off this level of tanking, much less by level 3. Mystic isn't even designed to tank, they just happen to be ridonkulously good at it.

Also, no, there are no other 2nd level spells that are as good defensively as ice sheet or blurry form. The equivalent are an upcast false life (12.5hp, takes a full action, has a time limit) and Aid (takes a full action, worth 20ish hp but spread out across the party, can't be replaced once gone). The equivalent to the blurry form is blur which, while a really good spell, is horrible by comparison.

Invisibility, mirror image - are all amazing spells.

[Jamesps]

1) You have 14 psi points. You can do this 2x per day, assuming you only use 2 psi points for other things.

*You should be able to do this for an average of 3 combats. Temp hp won't be entirely used up in a single combat unless its difficult, and the blurring effect lasts for 10 minutes so if you have any encounters that occur within 10 minutes of each other you can save 3 points then. If at least one or the other is true you get 3 combats. If both are true you get 4.

Can you be charmed, afraid or paralyzed and still have concentration up?
*Yes, yes, no.

-Crown of Rage: Enemies within 5 feet of you, who attacks someone other than you, does so at disadvantage. 1) let's assume you have it on all the time, so you dont use your other focuses and 2) the enemy can move 5 feet away from you and still be in melee with your buddy.

*They can do this against any tank, so as a comparative analysis this fails.

-Frozen Sanctuary (3 pts) - 20 temp hp (in the morning), bonus action
-Cloak of Air (3 points, conc) - BOnus Action Attacks against you had disad. 1/round can make creature hit itself if creature misses you
-AC 18ish....chainmail + shield

Now let's see how silly your superior combat tactics really work:
1) Enemy can just go to range and hit you from there

*This is a weakness in 5e tanking. Virtually no class can consistently get around it at early levels.

2) SPell caster will giggle. THey will also thank you for getting all your friends into a tight group - cause, AOE

*How do other tanks deal with this problem at 3rd level? Again, when determining a class is unbalanced you look at it against other classes in the same role. You don't want to take away character options by making the "One true choice" for any given role in a group. The fact that the role itself can't handle every concievable situation is beside the point and not relevant to the argument.

3) You assume your allies will want to hug you

*I addressed this.

4) you assume the DM enemies are mindless and won't stay out of your 5ft range while hitting your friends. Here is a simple ascii pic: EAY (e = enemy, A = ALly, Y = you)

*No I don't assume this. This is an issue with 5e tanking. It is not an issue with Mystic. If your DM always manuevers the enemies so tanking doesn't work then you can play a non tank who's still more resilient than any other low level character. You can even do that smiting thing you mentioned instead. Mystics are just as good at smiting as paladins. Some might argue better as they can add rider effects.


You made a specific situation where your character could POTENTIALLY shine, if the DM played mindless melee creatures. This isn't even remotely broken - this is you just saying "oh look i can do this, i'm awesome"...in the meantime, your DM is not an idiot and neither are his critters with average int or higher. Plus, during these battles, you are not really doing anything. You have 2 psi points left to burn. I find it difficult to believe you will do no other spell casting abilities during the day.

*I made a character that could was both more resilient than any other comparably leveled character and could tank better than any other similarly leveled character. You could easily take off the tanking part and fill in any other role that needs resilience. Seriously, /any/ role.

While this is happening. My paladin mystic steps to the enemy spell caster -and melts his face in one round. That is infinitely more useful than your pure defense tactic.

*You've done exactly what you accused me of doing. Set up a specific scenario where a character can flourish. The difference is you used the thing we were saying was unbalanced as part of your example of a character that could outperform the example.



Invisibility, mirror image - are all amazing spells.

*Mystics also have a version of invisibility that gives a better return on investment when upcasting it.

[Elastoid]

Multiclassing for the Mystic shouldn't be allowed, it's just too ridiculous.

EDIT: Edited the example because I was using a two-handed weapon rather than a longsword. Forgot that wasn't kosher.

For example: Mystic 5, Vengeance Paladin 3, Hexblade Warlock 1 with Elven Accuracy feat

You take Psionic Weapon and Mastery of Wood and Earth.. You nova harder than anyone novas.

You curse a target, and put the vow of enmity on them. You now have advantage on attacks, and roll a crit with any 19 or 20. You now crit 27% of the time.

You spend 5 points into Lethal Strike, imbuing your weapon with an additional 5d10 on its next hit as a bonus action. You then use Animate Weapon with an additional 5 psi points for another 5d10. You then attack with your longsword from as many as 30 ft away. You spend a spell slot to do an additional 2d8.

Your attack does 1d8+10d10+2d8 damage, plus modifiers. A little over one in four times, it crits for 2d8+20d10+4d8 damage. At level 9.

Admittedly it takes two turns to set up (two bonus actions), but still ridiculous. A level 3 Champion is even worse -- he doesn't need the bonus action to set up the 19-20 critical strike, and he can Action Surge to use Animate Weapon a second time, spending 15 psi points in one round to do 15d10 on top of his other dice.

Mystic 5/Vengeance Paladin 3/Champion Fighter 3 can thus:

1st turn -- Bonus Action: Vow of Enmity, Action: Animate Weapon, attack for 1d8+5d10+2d8, crit 19% of the time, Action Surge to do it again.
2nd turn -- Bonus Action: Lethal Strike, Action: Animate Weapon, attack for 1d8+10d10+2d8, crit 27% of the time (this is the one you'd use Elven Accuracy on).

In two turns, you spend 3 Paladin slots, 20 psi points and an action surge in exchange for a minimum of 3d8+20d10+6d8, and often more than that as you're going to crit on one of these attacks over 50% of the time. It'll often be the case that in two rounds you do over 200 damage.

[sightlessrealit]

Multiclassing for the Mystic shouldn't be allowed, it's just too ridiculous.

For example: Mystic 5, Vengeance Paladin 3, Hexblade Warlock 1 with Elven Accuracy feat

You take Psionic Weapon and Mastery of Wood and Earth.. You nova harder than anyone novas.

You curse a target, and put the vow of enmity on them. You now have advantage on attacks, and roll a crit with any 19 or 20. You now crit 27% of the time.

You spend 5 points into Lethal Strike, imbuing your weapon with an additional 5d10 on its next hit as a bonus action. You then use Animate Weapon with an additional 5 psi points for another 5d10. You then attack with your Greatsword from as many as 30 ft away. You spend a spell slot to do an additional 2d8.

Your attack does 2d6+10d10+2d8 damage, plus modifiers. A little over one in four times, it crits for 4d6+20d10+4d8 damage. At level 9.

Admittedly it takes two turns to set up (two bonus actions), but still ridiculous. A level 3 Champion is even worse -- he doesn't need the bonus action to set up the 19-20 critical strike, and he can Action Surge to use Animate Weapon a second time, spending 15 psi points in one round to do 15d10 on top of his other dice.

Mystic 5/Vengeance Paladin 3/Champion Fighter 3 can thus:

1st turn -- Bonus Action: Vow of Enmity, Action: Animate Weapon, attack for 2d6+5d10+2d8, crit 19% of the time, Action Surge to do it again.
2nd turn -- Bonus Action: Lethal Strike, Action: Animate Weapon, attack for 2d6+10d10+2d8, crit 27% of the time (this is the one you'd use Elven Accuracy on).

In two turns, you spend 3 Paladin slots, 20 psi points and an action surge in exchange for a minimum of 6d6+20d10+6d8, and often more than that as you're going to crit on one of these attacks over 50% of the time. It'll often be the case that in two rounds you do over 200 damage.
Gonna stop you with a Greatsword there. You can't use Animate Weapon with a two-handed weapon.

[Elastoid]

Gonna stop you with a Greatsword there. You can't use Animate Weapon with a two-handed weapon.

Fair enough. Longsword, substitute the 2d6 for a 1d8 and the damage is slightly reduced.

[furby076]

1)

James, sorry, i started to try to respond, but you not using quotes made it really difficult to read. I spent more time trying to cycle between rather than making an argument. I can't spend 30 minutes responding. If you can clean up your quoting I'll be happy to respond.

Suffice it to say, and in short, your responses are all about very specific situations (i.e., the psi points comments), and set unreasonable limitations (i.e., players not having easy way to handle the 5' crown of rage issue at early levels...which is very easy with polearms, ranged weapons, and spells...all which is accessible to any level 1 group)

[Sicarius Victis]

Multiclassing for the Mystic shouldn't be allowed, it's just too ridiculous.

EDIT: Edited the example because I was using a two-handed weapon rather than a longsword. Forgot that wasn't kosher.

For example: Mystic 5, Vengeance Paladin 3, Hexblade Warlock 1 with Elven Accuracy feat

You take Psionic Weapon and Mastery of Wood and Earth.. You nova harder than anyone novas.

You curse a target, and put the vow of enmity on them. You now have advantage on attacks, and roll a crit with any 19 or 20. You now crit 27% of the time.

You spend 5 points into Lethal Strike, imbuing your weapon with an additional 5d10 on its next hit as a bonus action. You then use Animate Weapon with an additional 5 psi points for another 5d10. You then attack with your longsword from as many as 30 ft away. You spend a spell slot to do an additional 2d8.

Your attack does 1d8+10d10+2d8 damage, plus modifiers. A little over one in four times, it crits for 2d8+20d10+4d8 damage. At level 9.

Admittedly it takes two turns to set up (two bonus actions), but still ridiculous. A level 3 Champion is even worse -- he doesn't need the bonus action to set up the 19-20 critical strike, and he can Action Surge to use Animate Weapon a second time, spending 15 psi points in one round to do 15d10 on top of his other dice.

Mystic 5/Vengeance Paladin 3/Champion Fighter 3 can thus:

1st turn -- Bonus Action: Vow of Enmity, Action: Animate Weapon, attack for 1d8+5d10+2d8, crit 19% of the time, Action Surge to do it again.
2nd turn -- Bonus Action: Lethal Strike, Action: Animate Weapon, attack for 1d8+10d10+2d8, crit 27% of the time (this is the one you'd use Elven Accuracy on).

In two turns, you spend 3 Paladin slots, 20 psi points and an action surge in exchange for a minimum of 3d8+20d10+6d8, and often more than that as you're going to crit on one of these attacks over 50% of the time. It'll often be the case that in two rounds you do over 200 damage.

...Where does the Hexblade fit into this?

[Elric VIII]

In two turns, you spend 3 Paladin slots, 20 psi points and an action surge in exchange for a minimum of 3d8+20d10+6d8, and often more than that as you're going to crit on one of these attacks over 50% of the time. It'll often be the case that in two rounds you do over 200 damage.

Compare that to just a vengeance Paladin 11 with GWM and 20 str with a Greatsword.

1st round you out put your oath on your target, attack with two lvl 3 smites for 2*(2d6+1d8+4d8+1d8+15) ~ 118 damage.

2nd round you cast Branding Smite with your bonus action. You attack with a lvl 3 and a lvl 2 smite for (2d6+1d8+2d6+4d8+1d8+15) + (2d6+1d8+3d8+1d8+15) ~ 121 damage.

That's over 200 not counting crits and you'ryou're not sacrificing higher level features for it.

This uses 3 3rd level and 2 2nd level spell slots for comparable damage. You also get more ASIs compared to the multiclass and you are less MAD.

I'm really not seeing the issue. The only thing that nova harder than a straight passing might be a sorcadin.

[Asmotherion]

I don't dislike it because of being broken. I dislike it because I dislike the idea of adding a new class to 5e, instead of making it an archetype.

I'm not right or wrong on this, it's just a personal taste.

[Ravinsild]

I don't dislike it because of being broken. I dislike it because I dislike the idea of adding a new class to 5e, instead of making it an archetype.

I'm not right or wrong on this, it's just a personal taste.

So like instead of a whole psionic class that only gets psionics you mean something like the Shardmind could be a psionic tank subclass of Fighter and like the SoulKnife could be a psionic monk or rogue option and so forth? Split the psionics up between classes to give everybody a little bit of psychic power instead of just dumping the whole lot into one big pot?

[Sicarius Victis]

So like instead of a whole psionic class that only gets psionics you mean something like the Shardmind could be a psionic tank subclass of Fighter and like the SoulKnife could be a psionic monk or rogue option and so forth?

Fighter subclass would be Battlemind, or just Psychic Warrior. Shardmind was a crystalline psionic race, rather than class/subclass.

[Elric VIII]

So like instead of a whole psionic class that only gets psionics you mean something like the Shardmind could be a psionic tank subclass of Fighter and like the SoulKnife could be a psionic monk or rogue option and so forth? Split the psionics up between classes to give everybody a little bit of psychic power instead of just dumping the whole lot into one big pot?

This would be pretty cool, but it would be hard to make a basic Psion (i.e. - psionic full caster) as a subclass. But it would certainly be possible to make a psionic subclass for monk, rogue, and fighter that take elements from the psionic full caster just like 4 elements, arcane trickster, and eldritch knight. That would let the designers move some of the more unique abilities off of the main chassis, making a more focused class.

[Ravinsild]

Fighter subclass would be Battlemind, or just Psychic Warrior. Shardmind was a crystalline psionic race, rather than class/subclass.

Yeah I'm not very familiar with Psionics. I think my first introduction to it was in PHB3 for 4th Edition and everything sounds sort of similar to the point I get everything confused. I remember Battlemind was a defender though. I remember Shardmind looked sort of like Malphite from League of Legends. I don't remember much else haha.

[Asmotherion]

So like instead of a whole psionic class that only gets psionics you mean something like the Shardmind could be a psionic tank subclass of Fighter and like the SoulKnife could be a psionic monk or rogue option and so forth? Split the psionics up between classes to give everybody a little bit of psychic power instead of just dumping the whole lot into one big pot?

Exactly. This prety much would be great, and make a decent addition to the game without any additional classes. Everything, from a Psionic variant to Rage, to a Psionic powers of the fighter, and the Soulknife, being their respective subclasses, as they are obviously designed as (each one looks awfully like some class either way).

[furby076]

So like instead of a whole psionic class that only gets psionics you mean something like the Shardmind could be a psionic tank subclass of Fighter and like the SoulKnife could be a psionic monk or rogue option and so forth? Split the psionics up between classes to give everybody a little bit of psychic power instead of just dumping the whole lot into one big pot?

Mystic will be its own thing, but expect archtypes, feats, skills and magic items to be included. You can see it in the rules in the pdf that were mentioned, but never shown in the powers....so a rule that was made for nothing. I believe crawford mentioned there will be these things, as well. Psionics is too big just to have what they published

[MrStabby]

I am probably alone here, but I liked the prestige class system and I think that the Mystic would work well there (ok 3rd edition implemented it poorly with too many, too poorly balanced prestige classes but the concept worked for me).

Use it as a class to add a psionic touch to whatever else you are doing.


As it is - I think I have read enough to not allow it in my games. It might be close to being reasonable in some hands but at a table of mixed players of different levels of experience i don't think it is a risk worth taking.

[Ravinsild]

Personally I like how the Mystic reads but I've never played one. I wouldn't care if some of it was split up and diluted as sub-classes for other main classes and some was kept Mystic only, or all Mystic, or completely divided into existing classes. I just think psionics adds a cool alternate spin from "magic".

[furby076]

I am probably alone here, but I liked the prestige class system and I think that the Mystic would work well there (ok 3rd edition implemented it poorly with too many, too poorly balanced prestige classes but the concept worked for me).

Use it as a class to add a psionic touch to whatever else you are doing.


As it is - I think I have read enough to not allow it in my games. It might be close to being reasonable in some hands but at a table of mixed players of different levels of experience i don't think it is a risk worth taking.

Don't knock it before you try it. Yes, you may need a decent player (one who is willing to nerf something) to play it, but in it's current form, it's good but not OP or broken. It shines in some ways, but doesn't overtake the table by any stretch