Spitballing how best to optimise Shield and Quarterstaff.

[prototype00]

So it is generally regarded that Polearm Master (via Variant Human) at 1st level and the Shield + Quarterstaff is a winning low level strategy, especially with the Dueling weapon style adding +2 to one handed weapon damage. But where to take it from there?

Now there are two ways to get Dueling style, lvl 1 Fighter and lvl 2 Paladin, so let's deal with each:

1. Fighter - Good from lvl 1, a Quarterstaff fighter probably wants to go Battlemaster and take the Sentinel feat. The Maneuvers are real synergistic with Polearm Master - pushing attack means that when they step next to you to attack, your reaction pushes them 15ft away and Sentinel halts them in their tracks, wasting their turn.

What's a good multiclasd though? Barbarian for Reckless attack and rage? And what to do with the rest of the levels? Two feats and the rest ASI?

2. Paladin - You'll have to be lvl 2 to fully appreciate all the damage, but then it only goes up from there. The obvious multiclasd is Tome Warlock who can take Shillelagh as a ritual and Divine smites that regen after a short rest in Warlock slots, but is there even more synergy that can be added?

[Kane0]

There's also the possibility of throwing in the weapon cantrips (Booming Blade / Greenfire Blade)

Otherwise Shillelagh is a good idea for reducing any MAD issues, and you'll be wanting a source of extra attack and damage boosts like smites, hunter's mark, etc.

[prototype00]

There's also the possibility of throwing in the weapon cantrips (Booming Blade / Greenfire Blade)

Otherwise Shillelagh is a good idea for reducing any MAD issues, and you'll be wanting a source of extra attack and damage boosts like smites, hunter's mark, etc.

I wonder if Pal- Lock is a bit less MAD, as you can focus entirely on Str/Cha with a minor in Con and rock heavy armour with a shield?

But agreed, Pal-Lock is definitely the damaged focus build, while a Fighter is more tank controller.

No opinions on the potential multi for Fighter? Is it best to go full Fighter then?

[rbstr]

I'd have rocks fall on you for trying to get the bonus action attack with a one-handed quarterstaff. Ugh.

[prototype00]

I'd have rocks fall on you for trying to get the bonus action attack with a one-handed quarterstaff. Ugh.

Trying and succeeding! Or is there something in the rules I am not aware of preventing it?

[Kane0]

Nothing in the rules, but it's not uncommon for DMs to disallow it. When I first read the feat I thought they meant to write longspear (or pike upon rereading) instead of quarterstaff.

[Scathain]

Nothing in the rules, but it's not uncommon for DMs to disallow it. When I first read the feat I thought they meant to write longspear (or pike upon rereading) instead of quarterstaff.

Considering the investment, I don't really see the problem with this build. I agree that the weapons useable with PM are a little less than thought out (where is spear?) but the build doesn't do anything ban worthy.

[imanidiot]

Considering the investment, I don't really see the problem with this build. I agree that the weapons useable with PM are a little less than thought out (where is spear?) but the build doesn't do anything ban worthy.

The problem isn't with mechanics. It's that the build is pure cheese just for the sake of cheese. RP wise it's a lame character concept to begin with. All you're doing if forcing a DM to use the 30% or so of monsters that you gimmick doesn't work on. Rendering you character nearly useless and making the entire game more vanilla.

[Scathain]

The problem isn't with mechanics. It's that the build is pure cheese just for the sake of cheese. RP wise it's a lame character concept to begin with. All you're doing if forcing a DM to use the 30% or so of monsters that you gimmick doesn't work on. Rendering you character nearly useless and making the entire game more vanilla.

Your gimmick being reliable damage under a single stat? Paladins have that with Smite. GWM and Sharpshooter exist. Agonizing Blast too. If my problem was dealing with crazy DPR from players, I would have stopped DMing ages ago.

[Elminster298]

I personally would disallow it as well even though i know it is RAW. I know full well that D&D is not reality. However, you can not physically make any sort of meaningful attack with both ends of a quarterstaff wielding it one handed. I would absolutely allow you to staff and board but PAM I would not. For the record, I am not saying it is OP. It's just a ridiculous method of fighting and not using two hands for a "polearm" prevents you from hitting with the butt end.

[Safety Sword]

I would have thought it obvious that the intention was that the bonus action attack was for two handed wielding only.

The solution is really to make quarterstaff two-handed only.

Otherwise you have a club...

[No brains]

I think if you fluff your character as a Zulu stick fighter, you can get away with PAM sword and stick.

[Elminster298]

I think if you fluff your character as a Zulu stick fighter, you can get away with PAM sword and stick.

What? Zulu stick fighters use one handed sticks similar a mace for the attacking sticks. The "quarterstaff" style stick is the defending stick not used to attack in any meaningful way. When wielding a "stick and shield" it is always either an attacking stick and shield or attacking stick and defending stick+buckler.

[Aymon]

I would have thought it obvious that the intention was that the bonus action attack was for two handed wielding only.

The solution is really to make quarterstaff two-handed only.

Otherwise you have a club...

This is my solution.

The problem is not DPR, the problem is that it wrecks my suspension of disbelief. That ends the game for me...

[prototype00]

The tangent RP discussion is entertaining but I'm inclined to steer the thread back onto the original question, if that is all right?

The Barbarian multi is actually a bit MADder than I thought as you need to wear medium armor for rage, so your AC dips a bit (unless you want to go full Dex but where does that leave Con). Still not too bad for what it gives you.

[Lombra]

Fighter 1/bladelock x will make this shine, especially when the new hexblade patron will be released.

Full plate, shield, quarterstaff as your blade pact weapon, focus on strength, con and charisma for now, but if the hexblade releases with the invocation that lets you use cha to attack and damage rolls, you can focus on cha and con. At level 13 you'll add charisma to every attack you are making, on top of strength (or cha again if the current hexblade is available).

Alternatively one should find a way to pick cha-based shillelagh and combine it with bladelock for that extra charisma.

I would never allow one handed quartestaves to get the bonus action fron PAM tho.

[prototype00]

Hmm, the Staff and board Pal/Lock build has some interesting synergy with Warcaster, Booming Blade and Oath of Vengeance.

Say a foe steps within 5ft of you to attack:

1. Polearm Master's Reaction attack triggers.

2. You can use Booming Blade due to Warcaster (I'm aware of the Sage Advice ruling but you are attacking with your Polearm weapon for the Booming Blade cantrip). Say you hit, your foe now takes extra damage if they move.

3. Oath of Vengeance's 7th level ability allows you to move 15ft as part of the Reaction attack without drawing an AoO. You're supposed to use this to chase your quarry, but who cares about that, move 15ft away.

4. Foeguy now gets to either follow and take even more damage, or they can stay still and suck it up.

Not a bad low to mid level use of your Reaction attack, methinks.

[tieren]

I have a gnome pal-lock that rides around on a dog using the quarterstaff as a lance substitute. He also uses a shield and wears heavy armor.

I don't intend to take PAM as I also feel it is kind of cheesy, or at least munchkiny.

Was loosely based off Sir Didymus from the labrynth movie.

[Quoxis]

The Barbarian multi is actually a bit MADder than I thought as you need to wear medium armor for rage, so your AC dips a bit (unless you want to go full Dex but where does that leave Con). Still not too bad for what it gives you.

Don't forget the barbarian's unarmored defense!
Fighters get plenty of ASI, so building towards a high con can mitigate the low armored AC - with starting stats of 16, 14, 14 in Str, Dex and Con you have 14 unarmored AC + the 2 from the shield. If you invest in Con and leave Dex at 14 you can climb up to 19 with 3 ASI (so theoretically at level 8 iirc), and all that without stealth disadvantage and with the bonus of an additional 5 hp per level.

[MaxDPSsays]

I think a solution to the bonus attack not feeling right with other end of the staff could just be ruled as getting another attack with "normal" end of the staff? Just rule that it does the d4 dmg because the character doesn't get the full leverage due to not getting him/herself fully set from the previous attack. Maybe the character uses the bonus action to back swing? Almost like if you slap someone. While you bring your hand back to striking position you back hand them.

[prototype00]

Don't forget the barbarian's unarmored defense!
Fighters get plenty of ASI, so building towards a high con can mitigate the low armored AC - with starting stats of 16, 14, 14 in Str, Dex and Con you have 14 unarmored AC + the 2 from the shield. If you invest in Con and leave Dex at 14 you can climb up to 19 with 3 ASI (so theoretically at level 8 iirc), and all that without stealth disadvantage and with the bonus of an additional 5 hp per level.

It's a toss up between this and just rocking Plate and Shield, as after all, you have the strength for it.

I don't know, the lack of using unarmored defender from Barbarian rankles, but on the other hand, plate and Shield is easy, and arguably as good if not better. Barb will be a dip anyway, even 5 levels of Barb might be too much as the Fighter extra attack is so good and doesn't stack.

Long run there is more to synergies/optimise with the paladin/Warlock, I feel.

[Spiritchaser]

Stone sorcerer Hexblade would be pretty good at this. You'd end up with a LOT of hp, and with only con and cha to improve, you're going to max things out fast.

Finally, if you're starting out V Human, or any race without darkvision, Warlock and devil's sight are even more helpful.

[Specter]

Eldritch Knight/Abjurer with War Caster.

Spam Booming Blade as an opportunity attack, use Shield to drive your AC even further and cast with two hands full.

[prototype00]

Eldritch Knight/Abjurer with War Caster.

Spam Booming Blade as an opportunity attack, use Shield to drive your AC even further and cast with two hands full.

Why EK? I heard its a bit lacklustre compared to the other two?

prototype00

[Potato_Priest]

The revised UA ranger gets +2 and then later +4 to damage against their favored enemies. This stacks quite nicely with your high number of attacks, particularly if you pick humanoids as a favored enemy.

With regard to realism, it isn't realistic, but neither are giants or wizards. Look on the bright side: at least it isn't dual- wielding lances.

[Specter]

Why EK? I heard its a bit lacklustre compared to the other two?

prototype00

You want a way to get Extra Attack and Fighting Style, and EK gets you Shield early on, along with some cantrips and other spells.

[Easy_Lee]

Hexblade CHA to attack and damage, later CHA to damage twice, extra reactions from hellish rebuke, competitive ranged option in agonizing blast, and free advantage via devil's sight by casting darkness on yourself. The cheese will set you freese.


With regard to realism, it isn't realistic, but neither are giants or wizards.

I'm glad someone else said this. Just as a reminder to everyone, D&D humans can become considerably stronger than apes, who are only strength 16. They are so much stronger that real life fighting styles have very little bearing on them.

And if the butt-end strike bothers you, think of it as a pommel strike, something you can do with a dagger. Honestly, the biggest problem with PM is that it should be possible with any weapon.

[prototype00]

Hexblade CHA to attack and damage, later CHA to damage twice, extra reactions from hellish rebuke, competitive ranged option in agonizing blast, and free advantage via devil's sight by casting darkness on yourself. The cheese will set you freese.



I'm glad someone else said this. Just as a reminder to everyone, D&D humans can become considerably stronger than apes, who are only strength 16. They are so much stronger that real life fighting styles have very little bearing on them.

And if the butt-end strike bothers you, think of it as a pommel strike, something you can do with a dagger. Honestly, the biggest problem with PM is that it should be possible with any weapon.

Oh yeah, since they are from different sources, the cha to damage from Shillelagh will stack with the Hexblade Cha to damage, won't it?

Do you think Hexblade will be in Xanathar's this November?

[GlenSmash!]

And if the butt-end strike bothers you, think of it as a pommel strike, something you can do with a dagger. Honestly, the biggest problem with PM is that it should be possible with any weapon.

I feel the same way about GWM. IMHO Sacrificing accuracy for power should just be something a character can do with a melee weapon.

Maybe only weapons wielded in two hands, and maybe a slightly different mechanical implementation like disadvantage instead of -5 to hit, but I definitely feel the concept would be better served when not limited to the current feat.

[PeteNutButter]

So it is generally regarded that Polearm Master (via Variant Human) at 1st level and the Shield + Quarterstaff is a winning low level strategy, especially with the Dueling weapon style adding +2 to one handed weapon damage. But where to take it from there?

Now there are two ways to get Dueling style, lvl 1 Fighter and lvl 2 Paladin, so let's deal with each:

1. Fighter - Good from lvl 1, a Quarterstaff fighter probably wants to go Battlemaster and take the Sentinel feat. The Maneuvers are real synergistic with Polearm Master - pushing attack means that when they step next to you to attack, your reaction pushes them 15ft away and Sentinel halts them in their tracks, wasting their turn.

What's a good multiclasd though? Barbarian for Reckless attack and rage? And what to do with the rest of the levels? Two feats and the rest ASI?

2. Paladin - You'll have to be lvl 2 to fully appreciate all the damage, but then it only goes up from there. The obvious multiclasd is Tome Warlock who can take Shillelagh as a ritual and Divine smites that regen after a short rest in Warlock slots, but is there even more synergy that can be added?

What about level 2 Ranger? Not horrible if going with revised ranger...

Best is with just paladin, until level 11. That d4 becoming 1d4+1d8 is all you need. Alternatively you could do bladelock and add that cha to damage, but that is a little MAD or requires multiclassing to get a decent AC for a str build.

[rbstr]

Oh yeah, since they are from different sources, the cha to damage from Shillelagh will stack with the Hexblade Cha to damage, won't it?

No, they both give you Cha as the ability for attack and damage, it's not a damage bonus, both give the same thing so doing both is pointless (though Shillelagh gives upgraded damage die to the staff)

[Easy_Lee]

Oh yeah, since they are from different sources, the cha to damage from Shillelagh will stack with the Hexblade Cha to damage, won't it?

Do you think Hexblade will be in Xanathar's this November?

I was thinking Hexblade with the Lifedrinker invocation, not shillelagh. Shillelagh on a Hexblade would be redundant.

And if Hexblades are in Xanathar's, I suspect they'll be changed.

[djreynolds]

Playing a hill dwarf is the best option due to no movement penalty with heavy armor.

Now you do not have to invest in strength or dexterity

[MeeposFire]

No, they both give you Cha as the ability for attack and damage, it's not a damage bonus, both give the same thing so doing both is pointless (though Shillelagh gives upgraded damage die to the staff)

It would be different if they said they added your cha mod but instead I believe they both say something to the idea of replace str with the casting stat.

[prototype00]

I was thinking Hexblade with the Lifedrinker invocation, not shillelagh. Shillelagh on a Hexblade would be redundant.

And if Hexblades are in Xanathar's, I suspect they'll be changed.

Yeah, when I read the abilities you are more or less correct. But that means taking 12 levels of Warlock with pact of the Blade, I'm not so sure I have the patience with that kind of multiclass! :smallconfused:

prototype00

[Easy_Lee]

Yeah, when I read the abilities you are more or less correct. But that means taking 12 levels of Warlock with pact of the Blade, I'm not so sure I have the patience with that kind of multiclass! :smallconfused:

prototype00

Well, if you're intent on multiclassing, I wouldn't go with a quarterstaff. Instead, consider a greatsword with the Cursebringer invocation from UA. When you hit with it, you can expend a spell slot to deal 2D8 extra damage per spell slot level. There's no reason you can't multiclass Paladin and also expend a spell slot to Divine Smite at the same time.

Finally, you can take GWM and get an extra attack when you crit or reduce a target to 0 hit points. With Cursebringer, you can also move your curse to a new target for free when the target dies. Since Hexblade's Curse also increases your damage and critical hit range against the affected target, this altogether becomes a very powerful damage combo. By the time you hit Warlock 9 / Paladin 2, you can burn both of your level 5 spell slots on a single attack dropping one Cursebringer smite and one Paladin smite. Assuming the attack you chose was Greenflame blade, you're looking at a lot of damage.

[Potato_Priest]

Yeah, when I read the abilities you are more or less correct. But that means taking 12 levels of Warlock with pact of the Blade, I'm not so sure I have the patience with that kind of multiclass! :smallconfused:

prototype00

You don't have the patience for a 1-level fighter dip to get the fighting style?

[Chugger]

Hang on ... sorry, I'm still catching up with a full understanding of 5e (as I've explained before my dnd gap is from AD&D to a few months ago - it's huge - and sometimes I feel so stupid, but I am learning) ...

...so I can run a lvl 1 Hu Var Fighter, say, w/ AC 18 from chain and shield. And he has PaM feat. And he has a stick in his hand - a quarterstaff - and he can hit for 1-6 + 3 (str dam mod) and then butt strike (or pommel strike) for 1-4 + 3 at level one (if he hits both times)?

Which is 9 pts damage average if both hit plus (my fighter has) an AC of 18. At lvl 1.

And if someone enters his reach (from PaM) he gets an AoO for 1-6 + 3? (meaning 15.5 av dam for the round) (I don't think he gets to butt strike on a reaction, but am I wrong?)

And when he hits lvl 5 and is BM he can do tripping attack for his first attack, doing 1-6 + 1-8 + 4. And then take his second attack, if the trip works, at advantage for 1-6 + 4. And then do a butt strike at advantage for 1-4 +4?

As long as he has the dice to add to his attack that's 12 + 7.5 + 6.5 = 26 average pts damage, not counting a possible reaction attack (that would be 7.5 more for 33.5).

And if he's bought splint he's AC 19. If he's bought plate he's AC 20.

Were he sword and board he'd be doing ( 4.5 + 6 ) x 2 or 21.

I wonder if it's worth it to get that extra 2 AC when one could have 10' reach w/ a glaive and do more damage (1d10 +4) x 2 + 1d4 + 4 = 19 + 6.5 = 25.5 or 35 with an AoO (add 4.5 if using a trip attack, so 30 and 39.5). I'm kind of having trouble getting a feel for what 2 ac is "worth". About 4 extra av damage and 5' extra reach vs 2 ac ... maybe 2 ac wins out.

Ah, almost forgot, at lvl 5 he surges. He trip attacks then gets more, like this?

1d6 + 1d8 + 4 (with trip attack from BM)
1d6 + 4 (at adv if trip works)
1d6 + 4 "
1d6 + 4 "

1d4 + 4 "

= 12 + ((3.5 + 4) x 3 ) + 6.5 = 12 + 21.5 + 6.5 = 40

And, not ad adv, he might get an AoO from PaM for 40 + 9.5 = 49.5 total av damage for the surge round.

Am I basically understanding this?

How do you think this compares with other options, like GWM, SS and bow, or other? Thanks. I'll now go back through and read more carefully above - I'm betting some of you may have already answered this (I just had to get my head around the mechanics and see the numbers first).

[Chugger]

Dangit all my numbers are off! I saw someone post duel style, so add +2 dam per hit - doh. Sorry about that.

So on a round where the fighter hits 3 times from PaM add +6 damage.

On a round where the AoO also hits, add +8 damage.

Now that is ... yeah that beats glaive. You get better than glaive damage - which is very very weird - and a shield's AC to boot. The only thing you're missing is the glaive's extra 5' reach (10' total) advantage. I think a bit extra damage and 2 ac wins this one easily.

[prototype00]

Well, if you're intent on multiclassing, I wouldn't go with a quarterstaff. Instead, consider a greatsword with the Cursebringer invocation from UA. When you hit with it, you can expend a spell slot to deal 2D8 extra damage per spell slot level. There's no reason you can't multiclass Paladin and also expend a spell slot to Divine Smite at the same time.

Finally, you can take GWM and get an extra attack when you crit or reduce a target to 0 hit points. With Cursebringer, you can also move your curse to a new target for free when the target dies. Since Hexblade's Curse also increases your damage and critical hit range against the affected target, this altogether becomes a very powerful damage combo. By the time you hit Warlock 9 / Paladin 2, you can burn both of your level 5 spell slots on a single attack dropping one Cursebringer smite and one Paladin smite. Assuming the attack you chose was Greenflame blade, you're looking at a lot of damage.

That's a completely different build, though. It doesn't have nearly the survivability or control of Shield+Quarterstaff.


You don't have the patience for a 1-level fighter dip to get the fighting style?

Fighter, you kind of want to hit higher levels to make the best use of the extra attacks, if not for synergy's sake, then at least because if you don't you are dumping one of the best things it has going for it.

Paladin you kind of want at least 6th level for the saving throw aura, which everyone agrees is worth taking.

So yes, I would have the patience for a 1 level dip, but Warlock by itself runs the risk of being way too squishy/lacklustre in the damage for this kind of consideration.

[Potato_Priest]

Fighter, you kind of want to hit higher levels to make the best use of the extra attacks, if not for synergy's sake, then at least because if you don't you are dumping one of the best things it has going for it.

Paladin you kind of want at least 6th level for the saving throw aura, which everyone agrees is worth taking.

So yes, I would have the patience for a 1 level dip, but Warlock by itself runs the risk of being way too squishy/lacklustre in the damage for this kind of consideration.

Well, let's examine it, because now I'm curious.

Let us compare the effectiveness of a warlock with a fighter, without any dips or multiclassing, eh? (both characters have maxed their respective attack stats to 20)

At level 12 the hexblade has 3-4 attacks (one using reaction), with a damage modifier of +12 on each (double maxed charisma, improved pact weapon invocation)

At level 12 the fighter has 4-5 attacks (one from the reaction) with a damage modifier of +7 (maxed str, dueling fighting style) on each. If they have magic items, of course, that could be improved, but in my experience a DM will rarely give you a magic item for a cheese build like this.

Warlock DPR with reaction attack:
3d6+1d4+12*4=48+13=61 magical bludgeoning damage

Fighter with a reaction attack:
4d6+1d4+7*5=16.5+35=51.5 nonmagical bludgeoning damage

Warlock without reaction attack:
2d6+1d4+12*3=36+9.5=45.5 magical bludgeoning damage

Fighter without reaction attack:
3d6+1d4+7*4=28+13=41 nonmagical bludgeoning damage

That is a significant gap, but not by any means overwhelming. Given that both classes have plenty of tricks in addition to raw per round damage, (action surge vs spellcasting, warlock's better attack roll vs fighter's better survivability, etc) it would be hard to narrow it down to a clear superior. However, in terms of raw sustainable damage potential, I am going to have to side with the warlock, and that is probably how I'd play it, considering that a 2 level dip into fighter gets the warlock much more than an equivalent dip into warlock for a fighter.

[prototype00]

Well, let's examine it, because now I'm curious.

Let us compare the effectiveness of a warlock with a fighter, no dips or multiclassing, eh? (both characters have maxed their respective attack stats to 20)

At level 12 the hexblade has 3-4 attacks (one using reaction), with a damage modifier of +12 on each (double maxed charisma, improved pact weapon invocation)

At level 12 the fighter has 4-5 attacks (one from the reaction) with a damage modifier of +7 (maxed str, dueling fighting style) on each. If they have magic items, of course, that could be improved, but in my experience a DM will rarely give you a magic item for a cheese build like this.

Warlock DPR with reaction attack:
3d6+1d4+12*4=48+13=61 magical bludgeoning damage

Fighter with a reaction attack:
4d6+1d4+7*5=16.5+35=51.5 nonmagical bludgeoning damage

Warlock without reaction attack:
2d6+1d4+12*3=36+9.5=45.5 magical bludgeoning damage

Fighter without reaction attack:
3d6+1d4+7*4=28+13=41 nonmagical bludgeoning damage

That is a significant gap, but not by any means overwhelming. Given that both classes have plenty of tricks in addition to raw per round damage, (action surge vs spellcasting, warlock's better attack roll vs fighter's better survivability, etc) it would be hard to narrow it down to a clear superior. However, in terms of raw sustainable damage potential, I am going to have to side with the warlock, and that is probably how I'd play it, considering that a 2 level dip into fighter gets the warlock much more than an equivalent dip into warlock for a fighter.

Fair enough, as you say, the Warlock gets more damage, but the Fighter is much more survivable. I completely agree, that's class roles 101 for these two.

Now I'd just like to point out that at lvl 1, the Fighter is probably the superior choice here vs the pure warlock, Dueling Style, best armor picks, shield proficiency, more hp. So at low levels the comparison is very skewed the other way.

But as to the fighter/warlock multiclass, I don't recall advocating it at any point in this thread. It doesn't seem as good to me as Paladin/Warlock or Fighter/Barbarian (or Fighter straight), but that may be personal preference. So if you say that your method of multiclassing fighter/warlock is superior to mine, then I fully believe that you know what you are talking about, as it's not been at the forefront of my mind really.

prototype00

[Chugger]

This is the kind of comparison we need to do to "know" what is what re an issue like this one, so kudoes and well done! Number crunching is the way to truth (just wishing I had a better handle on all this).

But it gets super complex when we add the other factors. And I can only speak to a little of it.

Fighter gets BM at lvl 3 and can trip attack before choosing to surge - and can wail then like no one's business if his target is prone. Adv on all attacks. Fighter can also use precision or maybe riposte and hit (or get AoO) more often in key fights - though it burns through sup die - but for key hits it matters.

Lock can go crazy ways with spells and invos and has many advantages. His pact weap is considered "magic" iirc. He can faerie fire or fireball - and so on - outside of hex (shoot a smart lock can wake an hour before the party, hex a bug, kill it, get a short rest and have 7 hours left on that hex (it runs 8 hrs at lvl 3 slot) plus full slots, if the DM doesn't get all cranky over that). There are many ways to go with Lock, so it's kind of hard to get a mental handle on what the comparison is now.

Of course a dip seems to make things much more interesting.

Fi 1/Lock x seems potent to me. We can't add dex damage to a quarterstaff, right? So we're going for Str right (and not Dex) - so we need armor, right? This way the character can have really good ac, high str, dueling style for +2 each hit, and that fighter heal. And only one lvl delay for the good lock stuff. Use Fiend and/or Invo to get temp hp to make up for lower hp pool.

Fi 2 adds surge. At some point possibly pick up Fi 3 and get BM.

[Chugger]

Also I'm mixed up on the hexblade vs warlock vs fighter above...I get hexblade is a potential new class (iirc) - but are we mixing this up in the above?

[Quoxis]

OP: "So i got this idea for a fighter..."
Forum: "Be a warlock instead."

[Scathain]

OP: "So i got this idea for a fighter..."
Forum: "Be a warlock instead."

LOL spot on, often times the usual consensus is a Charisma based Spellcaster.

[Chugger]

OP: "So i got this idea for a fighter..."
Forum: "Be a warlock instead."

Hah! Hey I was mostly runnin w/ fighter...er I think I was.

[Chugger]

Quo I'm glad you put it up. I'd never really thought of that combo. It's worthy of consideration - and I learned - that +2 from dueling style is sweet and gets repeated each round a lot, plus all the other stuff.

[JBPuffin]

Why EK? I heard its a bit lacklustre compared to the other two?

prototype00

You also lose fewer caster levels, so you have some slots another Ftr/Wiz wouldn't.

[djreynolds]

Hill dwarf arcana cleric with magic initiate for shillelagh, pretty simple and straight forward build

[Lombra]

You can still pick shillelagh from magic initiate and choose not to use WIS for attack and damage roll. A hexblade can pick shillelagh and still use CHA to attack and damage roll changing the weapon dice to a d8, eventually making (1d8+CHA)×2 + 1d4+CHA, and at level 12 use the invocation to add again the CHA bonus to damage.

At level 12 single-classed hexblade can make 2d8+1d4+30 with attack action and bonus action.

[Quoxis]

You can still pick shillelagh from magic initiate and choose not to use WIS for attack and damage roll. A hexblade can pick shillelagh and still use CHA to attack and damage roll changing the weapon dice to a d8, eventually making (1d8+CHA)×2 + 1d4+CHA, and at level 12 use the invocation to add again the CHA bonus to damage.

At level 12 single-classed hexblade can make 2d8+1d4+30 with attack action and bonus action.

Hol' up...

<checks phb>

Holy deuce, he's right! Attacking with Wis is optional, the spell lets you choose.

[Vorpalchicken]

You don't get to choose. The ability used is determined by your casting stat, which is usually Wisdom since it is a druid spell. Warlocks can pick it up through the pact of the tome invocation however, in which case it becomes Charisma based.

Also a bard could use charisma either via magical secrets or the instrument of the bards ( forget which one.)
Arcana clerics can't pick Shillelagh as they are limited to wizard cantrips outside of cleric cantrips but a nature cleric could take it.

But why stop at one-handing your Shillelagh? If you stick the quarter staff up your rear end, you can free up the other hand and can technically still make bonus action butt end attacks.

[Easy_Lee]

You don't get to choose. The ability used is determined by your casting stat, which is usually Wisdom since it is a druid spell.

Shillelagh says that you "can" use your casting stat instead of strength. Hexblade says you "can" use Charisma for your attacks. Assuming they don't override each other, a Hexblade casting shillelagh as a druid gets to choose from three stats.

I don't know why you'd do this, though. Shillelagh only changes the one handed quarterstaff die from a D6 to a D8.

[Lombra]

Fighter for dueling + shillelagh + hexblade and various invocations (thirsting blade, improved pact weapon, lifedrinker) will at level 13 grant +13 to damage rolls for:
1d8+13 + 1d8+13 + 1d4+13

Throw in magic weapon for another +2 to each damage and attack roll, eventually hitting an average of 56.5 × whatever the probability to hit a target with a +13 bonus to attack roll is. I don't see the damage of this build growing past that.

A level 20 fighter with shillelagh and magic weapon (eldritch knight, alternatively superiority dies will do more damage but are controversial to track due to them being an expendable resource) will make (1d8+9)×4 + 1d4+9, for an average of 65.5 damage always at +13 bonus to attack roll. It looks like this is the limit.

A pure mundane fighter 11/barb 9 while raging and using shillelagh (no concentration required so t works while raging) (including dueling) does (1d8+10)×3 + 1d4+10 averaging at 55, +11 to hit with the potential to be at constant advantage and general superior toughness. Similar to hexblade/fighter, trades spell versatility for superior endurance.

These are three "builds" that came instantly to my mind.

Edit: hex is a thing too, it doesn't work with magic weapon but gives higher damage, not sure if it is better +1d6 to damage or +2 damage and +2 accuracy tho.

[prototype00]

No smiting paladin-lock? I thought it might be comparable.

[Easy_Lee]

No smiting paladin-lock? I thought it might be comparable.

I mentioned this earlier, but for a greatsword build. Naturally it would work just fine for a quarterstaff Hexblade. Polearm Master and Greenflame Blade on a Paladin 2 / Hexblade produces a versatile SAD frontliner.

Note that I'm aware that RAW you can't bonus action attack after casting Greenflame Blade. It's there for levels 5-7 before you get extra attack, and also for turns when your bonus action goes to a spell.

[Lombra]

No smiting paladin-lock? I thought it might be comparable.

Well if we keep considering UA legal then hexblades already have smites.

[Easy_Lee]

Well if we keep considering UA legal then hexblades already have smites.

Technically, the hexblade smite and paladin smite can stack. Two smites on one attack is a lot of burst.

[Lombra]

Technically, the hexblade smite and paladin smite can stack. Two smites on one attack is a lot of burst.

That's nasty. I guess that this should be considered since we are allowing PAM to work with one handed quarterstaves here.

In that case a pal2/hexblade12/sorcerer6 (or maybe just keep going hexblade for simplicity and high level spells, dunno, foresight is appealing) may get the 1st place considering nova potential. Even keeping fighter 1 for con save, defense FS and heavy armor proficiency is an option. It's gonna require 13 strength, maxed out charisma, and the rest in con.

You can be a mountain dwarf and keep 25ft of speed regardless of armor strength requirements, the first ASI goes in PAM, then one to bring CHA and CON to an even number, and the last two will max CHA. This does loose MI for shillelagh (not a big deal, 2 less points of damage im the end)

May it be more advantageous to be a Vhuman, start with 15 in STR, 16 in CHA, a decent CON, PAM, and get the opportunity to pick MI, or simply a +2 CON? This way the character maxes CHA by 11 and finalizes at level 15 with lots of damage and a good defense.

[prototype00]

That's nasty. I guess that this should be considered since we are allowing PAM to work with one handed quarterstaves here.

In that case a pal2/hexblade12/sorcerer6 (or maybe just keep going hexblade for simplicity and high level spells, dunno, foresight is appealing) may get the 1st place considering nova potential. Even keeping fighter 1 for con save, defense FS and heavy armor proficiency is an option. It's gonna require 13 strength, maxed out charisma, and the rest in con.

You can be a mountain dwarf and keep 25ft of speed regardless of armor strength requirements, the first ASI goes in PAM, then one to bring CHA and CON to an even number, and the last two will max CHA. This does loose MI for shillelagh (not a big deal, 2 less points of damage im the end)

May it be more advantageous to be a Vhuman, start with 15 in STR, 16 in CHA, a decent CON, PAM, and get the opportunity to pick MI, or simply a +2 CON? This way the character maxes CHA by 11 and finalizes at level 15 with lots of damage and a good defense.

I was wondering what this smite you were talking about for the Hexblade was. Branding Smite is what I'm assuming? Yeah, that totally stacks with divine smite, even paladins get to do that if they want to absolutely go nova for one round.

Hexblade is going to be interesting if Xanathar's has it as is. Its pretty strong, you don't even need to be a tomelock to benefit from it (Tomelocks get versatility, but their two biggest schticks, the advantage from the familiar and Shillelagh are basically both replicated by the Hexblade to a greater/lesser extent), so you can guilt free go bladelock. I'm wondering if it is even worth it to go paladin, Hexblade is so good, but I can't deny the draw of divine smite.

Hmm, vHuman with 15 Str (for Plate and multiclassing), 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha.

So you want the minimum amount of Paladin to get Divine Smite and as much Warlock as you can to go nuts when smiting. Either:

6 Pal / 14 Warlock for Aura of Protection or 5 Pal / 15 Warlock for Ultimate Pact Weapon, 8th level Mystic Arcanum. Tough choice.

prototype00

[Lombra]

I was wondering what this smite you were talking about for the Hexblade was. Branding Smite is what I'm assuming? Yeah, that totally stacks with divine smite, even paladins get to do that if they want to absolutely go nova for one round.

Hexblade is going to be interesting if Xanathar's has it as is. Its pretty strong, you don't even need to be a tomelock to benefit from it (Tomelocks get versatility, but their two biggest schticks, the advantage from the familiar and Shillelagh are basically both replicated by the Hexblade to a greater/lesser extent), so you can guilt free go bladelock. I'm wondering if it is even worth it to go paladin, Hexblade is so good, but I can't deny the draw of divine smite.

Hmm, vHuman with 15 Str (for Plate and multiclassing), 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha.

So you want the minimum amount of Paladin to get Divine Smite and as much Warlock as you can to go nuts when smiting. Either:

6 Pal / 14 Warlock for Aura of Protection or 5 Pal / 15 Warlock for Ultimate Pact Weapon, 8th level Mystic Arcanum. Tough choice.

prototype00

Thre's an invocation called eldritch smite in the latest warlock UA. I wasn't considering the previous invocations because they are unlikely to be released, plus, I have a feeling that hexblade won't become a patron, but will be divided among blade pact invocations, I know that I would prefere it that way at least.

[prototype00]

Thre's an invocation called eldritch smite in the latest warlock UA. I wasn't considering the previous invocations because they are unlikely to be released, plus, I have a feeling that hexblade won't become a patron, but will be divided among blade pact invocations, I know that I would prefere it that way at least.

Ah, nasty. Well for preference I think I will stick to AL legal stuff for the moment.

[Easy_Lee]

Ah, nasty. Well for preference I think I will stick to AL legal stuff for the moment.

In that case, paladin 2 into tomelock with the blade cantrips is probably your best bet. You can still agonizing blast on a typical turn for competitive damage, and can do a divine smite GFB when you need burst. Choose variant human and take war caster.

[prototype00]

In that case, paladin 2 into tomelock with the blade cantrips is probably your best bet. You can still agonizing blast on a typical turn for competitive damage, and can do a divine smite GFB when you need burst. Choose variant human and take war caster.

How does the Eldritch Blast booster help?

[Easy_Lee]

How does the Eldritch Blast booster help?

Ranged damage.

[Willie the Duck]

Coming to the thread late. Sorry that some of this is responding to stuff that people have moved on from.


I'm glad someone else said this. Just as a reminder to everyone, D&D humans can become considerably stronger than apes, who are only strength 16. They are so much stronger that real life fighting styles have very little bearing on them.

I see the point there, but I for one am kinda resistant to an argument that is roughly the same as 'your arguing about realism in a world with dragons?' Because, yeah, sometimes in a world of dragons and fighters who are stronger than apes, something does still break one's buy-in. Spiked Chains or dire flails in 3e come to mind for me. Obviously it is strongly in YMMV territory, but yes, there are still things that are problematic for verisimilitude and those complaints are legitimate.

But beyond that, there is another reason to dislike this build. It invites/incentivizes players to look for rules exploits. Little combos in the ruleset that benefit people who seek out loopholes etc. more than people who play the game straight. This is the part of 3e (and to a lesser extent 4e, although they clamped down on it a lot) that plenty of us do not want to be in 5e. 1-handed quarterstaff + shield+PAM probably fails in this regard in that it's not really better than full martial builds (like halberd and PAM), and more of an investment than other quarterstaff builds would normally be. However, it incentivizes this mindset, and that's reason enough not to like its presence in the game.

You'll have to bear with me, because this is a half-remembered. But I seem to recall the story of some First Person Shooter video game that had a squirt-gun for some mini-game (maybe there was a carnival stage, and you used it to fill the clown-mouth to make the balloon pop or something?). Now, you could, through some shenanigans (unclear if a coding error or a deliberate 'easter egg' by designers), get the squirt gun out of that stage, and unsurprisingly, none of the enemies outside the stage had any resistances to it and it had no range penalties or some-such, so it became a high-accuracy one-hit-kill gun.

This kind of thing is not quite as bad as, say, video game full on glitches where doing something like hoping on your left foot for 30 seconds before the enemy comes onscreen makes you be able to wallop them for effectively infinite damage or something, but it is a bizarre exploit that benefits people who scour the internet for game exploits (admittedly, the 1H-quarterstaff+PAM one is 1) not that much of a benefit and 2)pretty obvious, such that most people did come upon it themselves). Given the amount of pushback that WotC got from 3e and rewarding 'system mastery,' it's safe to say that a fair number of people are disappointed to see that once more in the game.


And if the butt-end strike bothers you, think of it as a pommel strike, something you can do with a dagger. Honestly, the biggest problem with PM is that it should be possible with any weapon.

If it can be done by any weapon, then it should be part of the normal rules for weapon attacks. As in, some of your successful attacks are probably pommel strikes instead of full on blade strikes. The fact that quarterstaves and polearms get this ability (with a feat) distinct from other weapons means that there is something special about these weapons that infers that the designers feel that they have a specific special combat ability. Going back to 3e, it's clear that they think (with some legitimacy) that the two-ended fighting with staves is a specific advantage (and someone probably pointed out that RW polearm fighting with the shorter polearms did in fact also use this technique). If one disagrees with this interpretation (or posit that you do it with all weapons, all the time), then it should probably go back to the 2e and earlier conception that staves are just another weapon. But if staff-like weapons do have some special back-end extra hit capacity, it is something that they would be better at doing than other weapons, but only in the case where they are not used one-handed.

Now, onto the meat of the builds. :smallsmile:



In that case a pal2/hexblade12/sorcerer6 (or maybe just keep going hexblade for simplicity and high level spells, dunno, foresight is appealing) may get the 1st place considering nova potential. Even keeping fighter 1 for con save, defense FS and heavy armor proficiency is an option. It's gonna require 13 strength, maxed out charisma, and the rest in con.

You can be a mountain dwarf and keep 25ft of speed regardless of armor strength requirements, the first ASI goes in PAM, then one to bring CHA and CON to an even number, and the last two will max CHA. This does loose MI for shillelagh (not a big deal, 2 less points of damage im the end)

May it be more advantageous to be a Vhuman, start with 15 in STR, 16 in CHA, a decent CON, PAM, and get the opportunity to pick MI, or simply a +2 CON? This way the character maxes CHA by 11 and finalizes at level 15 with lots of damage and a good defense.

I like the concept, and for a "I really want to make this work" build, it looks good. I still feel like this is very strongly a poor-man's polearm build for the sake of getting that shield AC in, or an unnecessarily complicated S&B build.

[Lombra]

I like the concept, and for a "I really want to make this work" build, it looks good. I still feel like this is very strongly a poor-man's polearm build for the sake of getting that shield AC in, or an unnecessarily complicated S&B build.

Your feeling is my feeling, it is exactly what it is: unnecessary and tedious, but that's what the thread is about :P