What are the weirdest classes?

[chimaeraUndying]

I find that classes (or even feats, really) that interact with the rules in unexpected or novel ways are both phenomenally fun to build around, as well as providing a sort of critical education for 3.PF's design principles -- the odd ways in which an odd class intersects with the larger systems of the game often reveals unexplored design space or clever and unexpected mechanical intersections.

Now, with my shpeal put out there, what weirdness do y'all know about?

[Psyren]

I think the thread title is asking for something different (weirdness) than the body of the post (interesting interactions.) When I think of a "weird" class, what comes to mind is more along the lines of "what were they thinking?"

In terms of actual weirdness:

1) *obligatory Truenamer*
2) Kineticist had so much potential, but I honestly don't know how it got out of development in the state that it's in.

In terms of interesting stuff:

1) Healer's interaction with Sanctified Spells is fun to build around, for those who want to be a cleric (especially a healbot) without risk of overshadowing their group.
2) I like building a familiar-using class around PF's Familiar Archetypes.

[Geddy2112]

I would say Shaman is one of the wonkiest and weirdest pathfinder classes. It can be one of the most MAD classes in the game, and has so many options it is not even funny. The trickiest part of the class is that every class option(spells, hexes, mysteries, abilities) is on the table, so you can go from a frontline beatstick to buffer/healer/ debuff/controler or something else entirely at the drop of a hat. Your familiar(spirit animal) is not your spellbook, but you need it to gain spells. You get a spontaneous spell slot based on mysteries, which can change every day at higher levels...the paperwork for the class is really complicated. Between the core spell list, mystery spells, and mysteries/favored class bonuses giving you other spells, you have access to spells from almost every list around, a hodgepodge of abilities.

To be able to play a shaman effectively requires a fair degree of system mastery of pathfinder-it is not just like a wizard loading their spellbook with spells and carrying backup scrolls and items. To access all of the utility of the shaman requires jumping through a lot of hoops. That said, it can do a LOT and do it in interesting ways, but is still weak for tier 1 caster. Mostly from the garbage spell list, but probably also in part because of all the paperwork you have to do to play it at high optimization.

[chimaeraUndying]

I think the thread title is asking for something different (weirdness) than the body of the post (interesting interactions.) When I think of a "weird" class, what comes to mind is more along the lines of "what were they thinking?"
Yeah, that's fair. Often I find that weirdness has interesting interactions, but assuming the two are implicitly connected probably isn't true.



In terms of actual weirdness:

1) *obligatory Truenamer*
2) Kineticist had so much potential, but I honestly don't know how it got out of development in the state that it's in.

In terms of interesting stuff:

1) Healer's interaction with Sanctified Spells is fun to build around, for those who want to be a cleric (especially a healbot) without risk of overshadowing their group.
2) I like building a familiar-using class around PF's Familiar Archetypes.
I've definitely looked at the Kineticist before, because, y'know, CON caster! Largely it's just confused me, though (pardon the pun). It almost seems like they were trying to replicate the 3.5 Warlock, but the sheet they were developing the class on fell into a predictive text emulator.

I feel like I'm missing something about the intersection of Healer and Sanctified Spells. Is it the unicorn?

Familiar Archetypes are really neat -- Mascot Familiars are, like, my favorite thing ever (more fluff fun if you're a Bard or Bard-equivalent, too!).



To be able to play a shaman effectively requires a fair degree of system mastery of pathfinder-it is not just like a wizard loading their spellbook with spells and carrying backup scrolls and items. To access all of the utility of the shaman requires jumping through a lot of hoops. That said, it can do a LOT and do it in interesting ways, but is still weak for tier 1 caster. Mostly from the garbage spell list, but probably also in part because of all the paperwork you have to do to play it at high optimization.

Are you talking abut the Super Genius Games Shaman or the Kobold Press Shaman? In any case, the amount of bookkeeping involved sounds similar to a Taskshaper (which in and of itself is a weird combination of Factotum and the Taskmaster from Marvel comics) or Savant (basically Ditto?).

[mistermysterio]

Are you talking abut the Super Genius Games Shaman or the Kobold Press Shaman? In any case, the amount of bookkeeping involved sounds similar to a Taskshaper (which in and of itself is a weird combination of Factotum and the Taskmaster from Marvel comics) or Savant (basically Ditto?).

I believe he's just talking about the Paizo hybrid class shaman?

Shaman (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/)

[ottdmk]

I think the Totemist qualifies. Incarnum is a strange system to begin with, and what the Totemist does with it can get downright weird. :smallbiggrin:

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think the Totemist qualifies. Incarnum is a strange system to begin with, and what the Totemist does with it can get downright weird. :smallbiggrin:
I'd argue that the Incarnate is weirder, if only because of how much less straightforward it is to build.

[ottdmk]

You might have a point. Especially when they start shaping Incarnate Avatar. :smallbiggrin:

[chimaeraUndying]

I believe he's just talking about the Paizo hybrid class shaman?

Well now I've got a new dream: run a tristalt Shaman/Shaman/Shaman.


I think the Totemist qualifies. Incarnum is a strange system to begin with, and what the Totemist does with it can get downright weird. :smallbiggrin:

So Totemists effectively get... a free, slotless, scalable magic item :nale:

I realized that I probably should have contributed an example in my OP, but hey, better late than never I suppose: Check out the Bloodborn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/lost-spheres-publishing/bloodborn/), which I suppose... sorta qualifies under my framework, since the only reason to care about this race is because of what it does to a casting class you take levels in with it: namely, it lets you key the casting of that class off of any attribute (and also get a bunch of free feats, if you choose the secondary characteristic wisely). This can make basically any two-ability dependent class SAD, and move particularly MAD classes towards compromise-free playability.

[Psyren]

I'd argue that the Incarnate is weirder, if only because of how much less straightforward it is to build.

It's very weird. They clearly intended it to be backup skillmonkey due to all the Insight bonuses it can get (without even needing to bind to chakras), and rapid meldshaping to let you switch between combat and non-combat melds. But then they slap it with a mere 2+Int and a paltry base list, ensuring most people actually looking for a backup skillmonkey skip over it completely.

There's also the lack of ranged options, even though Chaos Incarnates are encouraged to pursue that playstyle.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's very weird. They clearly intended it to be backup skillmonkey due to all the Insight bonuses it can get (without even needing to bind to chakras), and rapid meldshaping to let you switch between combat and non-combat melds. But then they slap it with a mere 2+Int and a paltry base list, ensuring most people actually looking for a backup skillmonkey skip over it completely.

There's also the lack of ranged options, even though Chaos Incarnates are encouraged to pursue that playstyle.
It also has a low BAB and a ton of melee/ranged boosts. It could really use a chassis upgrade. And some exceedingly doofy Cleric- fluff.

[Jormengand]

1) *obligatory Truenamer*

Oh c'mon! In the first post? :smalltongue:



Though if you want weird classes including prestige classes, then the truespeak PrCs are pretty weird - Disciple of the Word is a monk/truenamer theurge which doesn't advance monk properly or truenamer at all, for example.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Mountebank from Dragon Magazine Compendium should get an honorable mention. It is a cool concept poorly executed and when you hit 20 you become an NPC. Truly a capstone for the ages.

[chimaeraUndying]

Mountebank from Dragon Magazine Compendium should get an honorable mention. It is a cool concept poorly executed and when you hit 20 you become an NPC. Truly a capstone for the ages.

Up there with the Risen Martyr capstone :smallbiggrin:

[Mike Miller]

2) Kineticist had so much potential

Pun intended?

[Celestia]

The binder is pretty wierd, I think. Gaining power by fusing your soul with beings who parodoxically exist outside of reality is certainly unusual. Mechanically, the class is also rather unique, too.

[mabriss lethe]

Acolyte of the Ego is a sort of self contained wonkiness. Fluff is nonsense, crunch is tragic, and the end result, if heavily optimized, can be ridiculous fun.

[Psyren]

I'm playing Kyeudo's Truenamer fix in a 3.5 campaign right now. In that, he actually combined Acolyte of the Ego and Disciple of the Word into one seamless Monknamer" hybrid, and the result is awesome. What better way to seek perfection than by telling the universe you already are?

[Luccan]

Dragon Shaman is weird and interesting in the way that it seems more like a bunch of ideas thrown together than a class about dragons.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think Great Rift Skyguard is weird. It's the skydiving dwarf PrC.

The Incantifier is also weird. It makes you a magic-draining pseudo-lich right at level 1. It costs 120 000 gp to enter the class, too.

[Esprit15]

My DM and I were looking at Kensai and found ourselves pretty baffled by it. It seems like someone had a bunch of random ideas, and decided to just toss them all into a class.

[Thurbane]

Binders are weird, but awesome.
Dragon Shamans are weird, but despite their somewhat lackluster abilities, I really like them.
Dragonfire Adepts are weird, but also awesome.
Mountebanks are weird, but a bit underwhelming. This is a class I really want to like.
Shadowcasters are weird, but (IMHO) confusing, and also underwhelming.

[Lans]

Mountebank from Dragon Magazine Compendium should get an honorable mention. It is a cool concept poorly executed and when you hit 20 you become an NPC. Truly a capstone for the ages.

I think you can avoid becoming an npc by killing/tricking your patron

[Eldariel]

Fluff-wise Sha'ir is pretty strange. Basically their magic is retrieved from the elemental plane by their familiar for use that finds not only Cleric domain spells appropriate to the elements but also all Wizard/Sorcerer spells. And their familiar is a 'gen' (basically a minor outsider genie thingy).

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Mountebank from Dragon Magazine Compendium should get an honorable mention. It is a cool concept poorly executed and when you hit 20 you become an NPC. Truly a capstone for the ages.

Don't forget that it shares its name with an unrelated Prestige Class!

I wonder how gestalting Warlock/Hellfire//Mountebank/Mountebank would work out, power-wise? Take a dip in Binder somewhere for Naberius and you have a real soulstuff stew going.

[Alent]

Heartfire Fanner is always a fun and strange class. Take 5 levels of it and you've basically bolted 10 levels of Bard-but-better onto whatever class you are. Cloistered Cleric 7/Heartfire Fanner 5/Stormsinger 8 doesn't sacrifice a single Cleric casting level and performs Bardic music as a level 18 bard (With the complete song list, no less. Take that, Divine Bard.)

Lots of fun combinations to be had. Warlock, Sorcerer, etc.

[Narylinn]

I agree with the binder being kind of a strange one. The weird class that springs to mind for me is the Swift Wing PrC from Dragon Magic. It's a divine spellcaster (presumably, a cleric) of any faith that allows her/him to turn undead who sees her/himself as "part of a holy dragon that serves [her/his] church and draws upon a mystic link to a particular kind of dragon you consider affiliated with [her/his] deity." This would make sense for a humanoid cleric of Bahamut or some other good-aligned dragon deity, but for most deities, the whole dragon affinity thing doesn't make much sense. They get the odd but kind of neat ability to spend a turn undead use into a positive energy breath weapon that damages undead and heals the living in its area.

[StriderITP]

Not a class, but the feat Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu is one of the more oddball ones. It allows you to rebuke hippos.

[Jormengand]

Not a class, but the feat Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu is one of the more oddball ones. It allows you to rebuke hippos.

I prefer the prerequisite of "Must have defeated a hippopotamus in single combat." Also if you lose the feat you take damage as though a hippo had bitten you.

[Soranar]

And urban druid is pretty darn weird

-weird roleplay weapons and armor restrictions
-a spell list that combine druid spells with bard spells
-charisma based spellcasting
-wildshape that lets you turn into humanoids and animated objects !?
-an animal companion that's actually... an animated object
-proficiency with ANY crossbow

honestly one of the most counter intuitive class I encountered

[Thurbane]

And urban druid is pretty darn weird

-weird roleplay weapons and armor restrictions
-a spell list that combine druid spells with bard spells
-charisma based spellcasting
-wildshape that lets you turn into humanoids and animated objects !?
-an animal companion that's actually... an animated object
-proficiency with ANY crossbow

honestly one of the most counter intuitive class I encountered

I'd never really had a good read of the Dragon Compendium Urban Druid before...I never realized they were Cha based (assumed they were Wis, like regular Druids).

I'd be interested to play one in an urban campaign some time. They're obviously not the powerhouse that regular Druids are, but they still look like an interesting class to play. They could be a good face-type, with their skills and being Cha based.

One thing I noted though: under spellcasting it mentions Cha for highest levels spell and save DCs, but no mention whatsoever of bonus spells. Checked the errata, not mentioned there.

Would it default to Wis (as it does for most divine casters), or do they just not get bonus spells at all? A reasonable DM would allow bonus spells to run off Cha...

[chimaeraUndying]

And urban druid is pretty darn weird

-weird roleplay weapons and armor restrictions
-a spell list that combine druid spells with bard spells
-charisma based spellcasting
-wildshape that lets you turn into humanoids and animated objects !?
-an animal companion that's actually... an animated object
-proficiency with ANY crossbow

honestly one of the most counter intuitive class I encountered

Seems like they'd make a fun(ny) infiltrator, since they've got that weird wildshape and are probably gonna be pumping up their social skills (especially with Bard spells!). With the animated object familiar, you could sneak into a building disguised as a matching tea set or something.

[lord pringle]

I think Pathfinder's Occultist is pretty out there, to the point that I have like zero idea how they work.

[SimonMoon6]

I think Bard is pretty weird.

I mean, it's like, take a rogue and take away all the things that make a rogue useful (trapfinding, backstabbing, etc). Keep just the skill points.

And then, add music. Ta-dah! There's a class for you.

(Okay, and some magic too, just a dash of it though, we don't want this class to be too useful.)

[chimaeraUndying]

I think Pathfinder's Occultist is pretty out there, to the point that I have like zero idea how they work.
I've definitely looked at them once or twice... and closed the SRD tab shortly after. Seriously, "psychic spells"?

There's also the Radiance House version of the Occultist, which in a shocking turnabout of the way Paizo and 3PP things usually work, somehow makes more sense than the OA Occultist does.

[Jormengand]

I think Bard is pretty weird.

I mean, it's like, take a rogue and take away all the things that make a rogue useful (trapfinding, backstabbing, etc). Keep just the skill points.

And then, add music. Ta-dah! There's a class for you.

(Okay, and some magic too, just a dash of it though, we don't want this class to be too useful.)

You're kidding, right?

Backstabbing goes out of fashion the moment you fight anything which is immune to sneak attack (and the kinds of things that aren't are the kind of things that aren't immune to the there is no mind control, citizen. Go back to your fun. either). Trapfinding is a non-issue for anyone willing to spend one of their spell slots on summon monster I.

The skill points are the main thing the rogue has going for it, and trading two of them out for the ability to buff the entire party, plus a decent set of spells (summon monster N, summon swarm, charm person, alter self, invisibility, suggestion (before anyone else gets it), hold person, haste, glibness, lesser geas, scrying, dimension door, dominate person, greater invisibility, mislead, mass suggestion, animate objects, irresistible dance, heroes' feast, greater scrying and geas aren't exactly bad spells) isn't a hard trade.

[daremetoidareyo]

The marshal and motivate charisma in non combat encounters is hilarious to imagine.


Activating an aura involves haranguing, ordering, directing, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies. A marshal sizes up the enemy, allies, and the terrain, then gives allies the direction that they can use to do their best.

"Yo, you, ya gotta cajole that bittersweet princess, compliment her eyes or something! then play like you're the big man on campus, but BE SENSITIVE!"

--Marshal helping a half elf get +5 on a diplomacy check

[Eldariel]

You're kidding, right?

Backstabbing goes out of fashion the moment you fight anything which is immune to sneak attack (and the kinds of things that aren't are the kind of things that aren't immune to the there is no mind control, citizen. Go back to your fun. either). Trapfinding is a non-issue for anyone willing to spend one of their spell slots on summon monster I.

The important part is finding the traps so that you can bypass them, not triggering them. Even simple Alarm trap does its job if you SNAI it. And some traps like Gate or dungeon collapse you really don't want to trigger at all.

[Jormengand]

The important part is finding the traps so that you can bypass them, not triggering them. Even simple Alarm trap does its job if you SNAI it. And some traps like Gate or dungeon collapse you really don't want to trigger at all.

True. This is why you get the Cleric to find traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findTraps.htm) and inventiveness to bypass them without triggering them or rolling dice at them.

If you're playing one of those games of D&D where there are actually traps, of course.

[Cosi]

Sneak Attack immunity doesn't matter. Just buy wands of gravestrike (or whatever's applicable). Rogue's thing is that they are legitimately really good at DPS if built right. Also there are skill lines for utility, but those aren't really a Rogue thing. This makes the passable, if not as good as e.g. a Beguiler. The Bard is just not very good at a bunch of different stuff, so there's no real point.

[Psyren]

I've definitely looked at them once or twice... and closed the SRD tab shortly after. Seriously, "psychic spells"?

There's also the Radiance House version of the Occultist, which in a shocking turnabout of the way Paizo and 3PP things usually work, somehow makes more sense than the OA Occultist does.

Radiance House Occultist no longer has that name as they didn't want any confusion with the Paizo version (plus they are completely unrelated classes, in theme and mechanics.) The RH Occultist is now called the Pactmaker (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pactmaker) and, as before, is a PF conversion of the 3.5 Binder with a power boost. OA Occultist is a class that gets access to wizard schools via objects and functions as kind of a bardic sage.

Also, Psychic Spells are great, they fixed some of my biggest gripes with Psionics by simply turning them into a third type of magic.

[digiman619]

Radiance House Occultist no longer has that name as they didn't want any confusion with the Paizo version (plus they are completely unrelated classes, in theme and mechanics.) The RH Occultist is now called the Pactmaker (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pactmaker) and, as before, is a PF conversion of the 3.5 Binder with a power boost. OA Occultist is a class that gets access to wizard schools via objects and functions as kind of a bardic sage.

Also, Psychic Spells are great, they fixed some of my biggest gripes with Psionics by simply turning them into a third type of magic.
With respect, psychic spells are totally different in tone to psionics. Psionics were "powers of the mind"; psychic magic is "spirits and fortunetellers". While the two do have some overlap, it's far less than the one between as arcane and divine magic.

[Psyren]

With respect, psychic spells are totally different in tone to psionics. Psionics were "powers of the mind"; psychic magic is "spirits and fortunetellers". While the two do have some overlap, it's far less than the one between as arcane and divine magic.

To be blunt, the "tone" means nothing to me; it's mind magic, whether that comes from crystals or incense. Golarion shifted all their old psionics stuff (e.g. Vudra) over to Psychic Magic with nary a ripple in the pond.

I can get the distinction mattering to some, but I don't particularly care myself.

[Kurald Galain]

Psionics were "powers of the mind"; psychic magic is "spirits and fortunetellers". While the two do have some overlap, it's far less than the one between as arcane and divine magic.

So that means that psionic magic is effectively the same as arcane magic, but with another name, whereas psychic magic is basically identical to divine magic.

[Soranar]

I'd never really had a good read of the Dragon Compendium Urban Druid before...I never realized they were Cha based (assumed they were Wis, like regular Druids).

I'd be interested to play one in an urban campaign some time. They're obviously not the powerhouse that regular Druids are, but they still look like an interesting class to play. They could be a good face-type, with their skills and being Cha based.

One thing I noted though: under spellcasting it mentions Cha for highest levels spell and save DCs, but no mention whatsoever of bonus spells. Checked the errata, not mentioned there.

Would it default to Wis (as it does for most divine casters), or do they just not get bonus spells at all? A reasonable DM would allow bonus spells to run off Cha...

They're not druid power level but they're still leaps and bounds better than a tier 3 class like a bard

Better hitpoints, 2 good saves, better spellcasting, better class features (limited wildshape + animal companion)

The dark stalker humanoid shape also gives you decent DEX and 3d6 sneak attack so if you invest in multiple attacks (say hand crossbow or TWF with a quarterstaff) you still end up doing quite a bit of damage.

As for the CHA bonus spells, I think it's just lazy writing that made them forget to put in bonus spells since an urban druid isn't considered a variant in this case: it's a completely different class.

[digiman619]

To be blunt, the "tone" means nothing to me; it's mind magic, whether that comes from crystals or incense. Golarion shifted all their old psionics stuff (e.g. Vudra) over to Psychic Magic with nary a ripple in the pond.

I can get the distinction mattering to some, but I don't particularly care myself.
Where I think the fluff matters a little more than "not at all", I can respect your view.


So that means that psionic magic is effectively the same as arcane magic, but with another name, whereas psychic magic is basically identical to divine magic.
In that a corollary between the two sets can be made, yes. Psychic magic itself is quite different than divine magic, if for no other reason than it having virtually no healing spells, which is one of divine magic's primary identities. I will admit the difference between arcane magic and psionics isn't as great, however.

[Psyren]

In that a corollary between the two sets can be made, yes. Psychic magic itself is quite different than divine magic, if for no other reason than it having virtually no healing spells, which is one of divine magic's primary identities. I will admit the difference between arcane magic and psionics isn't as great, however.

You may want to look again - Occultists and Spiritualists both get cure spells baseline, and Mediums can of course get them via their Hierophant spirit. Psychics get all of them via the Faith Discipline, as well as the ability to channel energy.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I suppose Horned Harbinger could be called 'weird' because it gets CHA to CL. Not a common thing, ability score to CL.

[Jormengand]

Sneak Attack immunity doesn't matter. Just buy wands of gravestrike (or whatever's applicable). Rogue's thing is that they are legitimately really good at DPS if built right. Also there are skill lines for utility, but those aren't really a Rogue thing. This makes the passable, if not as good as e.g. a Beguiler. The Bard is just not very good at a bunch of different stuff, so there's no real point.

Rogue has passable damage, but the bard trades damage (although I hear that Dragonfire Inspiration) for an array of actually quite good spells - like, I make no secret of the fact that I think that Alter Self is probably the strongest level 2 spell in the game, and the bard doesn't even get it any later than the sorcerer. The bard is far from "Not very good at a bunch of different stuff".

[Grod_The_Giant]

Rogue has passable damage, but the bard trades damage (although I hear that Dragonfire Inspiration) for an array of actually quite good spells - like, I make no secret of the fact that I think that Alter Self is probably the strongest level 2 spell in the game, and the bard doesn't even get it any later than the sorcerer. The bard is far from "Not very good at a bunch of different stuff".
Meh, Cosi's definition of "not very good" is "not as good as a full caster." Bards are awesome.

(Also, yeah, DFI means a Bard can blow the Rogue out of the water even without counting the rest of the party. And Sublime Chord turns them into a full caster anyway, so... <shrug>)

[Cosi]

Rogue has passable damage, but the bard trades damage (although I hear that Dragonfire Inspiration) for an array of actually quite good spells - like, I make no secret of the fact that I think that Alter Self is probably the strongest level 2 spell in the game, and the bard doesn't even get it any later than the sorcerer. The bard is far from "Not very good at a bunch of different stuff".

DFI requires a bunch of splat diving, and even then it's only good if you are a Bardblade (which, having 16 Warblade levels, isn't really a Bard build) or have another martial-ish party member who needs the damage. That's pretty niche.

alter self is one spell, it's stupidly abusable, it's a nightmare to actually cast for all the parsing you do, and non-abusive uses are often less good than just casting spells that make you win. Also you get it once per day, and low level stuff is a lot less meaningful because almost no class is actually bad at 4th level. Like yeah, I guess Bard is probably good then, but so is Barbarian.

[Ellrin]

This topic is now about whether the bard is a good class or not.

Apparently.

[Cosi]

This topic is now about whether the bard is a good class or not.

Apparently.

It's a thread about classes. I was either "is this class good" or "have you heard the good word of Spheres of Power".


Meh, Cosi's definition of "not very good" is "not as good as a full caster." Bards are awesome.

Sort of, but not relevant. The point is that the Bard does a lot of things, but is worse at doing each of those things than the Rogue is at doing the one thing it does. DFI is nice, but it's pretty effort intensive to get up to core Rogue levels (remember, the baseline is like half of Rouge damage).

[chimaeraUndying]

I suppose Horned Harbinger could be called 'weird' because it gets CHA to CL. Not a common thing, ability score to CL.
I looked this up and (assuming it's the one from 3.0's Faiths & Pantheons) it looks like it only gets CHA to CL for casting animate dead and (greater) create undead. Bit of a shame, but still pretty neat.


This topic is now about whether the bard is a good class or not.

Apparently.
I think that all threads that aren't contests or policed by Afroakuma's black lightning will eventually drift off-topic. As long as people are still communicating politely it's productive, though, so I don't have much beef with it :smallwink:

[ExLibrisMortis]

I looked this up and (assuming it's the one from 3.0's Faiths & Pantheons) it looks like it only gets CHA to CL for casting animate dead and (greater) create undead. Bit of a shame, but still pretty neat.
Oh yeah, it's limited, but for a class that has no casting advancement, it's neat how you get +class level +CHA on the few spells you're supposed to be a master of, plus SLA versions of those, which also get the CL bonus (no onyx for animating!). In practice, you'd only dip HH 2 in a dread necro build, but hey, still a weird class.

Incidentally, one of my favourite villain builds is paladin (evil variant) 2/dread necro 8/horned harbinger 2. With Practiced Spellcaster and consumptive field (Advanced Learning), you have a CL for animate dead of 25 (with 20 charisma), ensuring plenty of minions, but you're not threatening a TPK by slinging 6th-level spells.

[Sian]

I'd never really had a good read of the Dragon Compendium Urban Druid before...I never realized they were Cha based (assumed they were Wis, like regular Druids).

I'd be interested to play one in an urban campaign some time. They're obviously not the powerhouse that regular Druids are, but they still look like an interesting class to play. They could be a good face-type, with their skills and being Cha based.

One thing I noted though: under spellcasting it mentions Cha for highest levels spell and save DCs, but no mention whatsoever of bonus spells.

read again, the text actually says that Urban Druids gains bonus spells per day if she have a high Charisma score ... halfway through third paragraph underneath Spells: ... and also under Abilities:

[digiman619]

It's a thread about classes. I was either "is this class good" or "have you heard the good word of Spheres of Power".

Let the record show that I participated in this thread and didn't mention it at all.

[Rynjin]

For Pathfinder Shaman is definitely an odd duck. Pathfinder LOVES its "fiddly bits" (every two level Talents and such) and it likes things like Arcane Schools. So they combined the two in the Shaman and REALLY combined them by making the Arcane School a fiddly bit in itself by tying fiddly bits to the Arcane School that could be swapped out o a daily basis (or, with a Feat, an hour's meditation) and then gave it pretty much all the best buff spells from Arcane, Cleric, and Druid casting on a chassis that's pretty solid in its own right. A well built Shaman can basically do anything. Make Lore your Wandering Spirit and you can just yank the Wizard spells of the day you feel like having and trade them out tomorrow if you please.

The Medium is also odd for the same reason. It's the class for the guy who wants to roll a d6 and decide what his class is that day, essentially.


I've definitely looked at the Kineticist before, because, y'know, CON caster! Largely it's just confused me, though (pardon the pun). It almost seems like they were trying to replicate the 3.5 Warlock, but the sheet they were developing the class on fell into a predictive text emulator.

Mark kind of mathed himself into a corner with the Kineticist, unfortunately. His mechanical design concept was "3.5 Warlock-ish" and aesthetic design concept was "Bender from Avatar". He did some pretty in-depth calcs on what he thought the class' native DPR should be, wrote a really strict wall of text detailing the exact limitations of the class to make sure it stayed within those constraints, and then laid it all down. Combined with essentially writing 5 different archetypes for the class built into it and it comes out as a mess on the page. It was interesting to watch the weird evolution of that class over the course of the playtest, the little teasers he put out, and its final release.

But you can see he succeeded on that main front. No matter how hard you optimize a Kineticist, it isn't going to go over a certain DPR threshold, and no matter how much you suck it won't go BELOW a certain threshold.

The Kineticist is like the antithesis to the OP, it's a class designed specifically to NOT interact with anything else in the game. It has no specific weird Feats that chain off other ones, it has TWO magic items (one of which adds 1-3 d6's to the Blast, the other is a weird staff that gives you a Blast with untyped damage), and is precluded from synergizing most of its Talents due to either Burn costs or inherent limitations (only one Form and one Substance Infusion per Blast) as well as heavily discouraging multiclassing even more than PF usually does.

It was the guy's first solo class (he finished up some of SKR's work on the Advanced Class Guide after SKR left) and he waaaay overthought everything about it. But he accomplished everything he set out to do with it, so you have to respect the guy for that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

But he accomplished everything he set out to do with it, so you have to respect the guy for that.
Except, maybe, for "write a legible class," which I'd argue the Kineticist fails at harder than... honestly, anything I've read in any edition of D&D. It's a confusing mess.

[Rynjin]

Except, maybe, for "write a legible class," which I'd argue the Kineticist fails at harder than... honestly, anything I've read in any edition of D&D. It's a confusing mess.

TBF, the whole book suffers from that. Occultist is worse. I agree the Kineticist is a bit dense on a first read though.

[lord pringle]

TBF, the whole book suffers from that. Occultist is worse. I agree the Kineticist is a bit dense on a first read though.

I'd say Psychic, Mesmerist and spiritualist make about as much sense as any other Pathfinder class. Medium's a little complex, but nowhere near as bad as Kineticist and Occultist.
That said, Occult Adventures is one of my favorite books and the thing that finally got me to switch to pathfinder, so I'm a little biased.

[Rynjin]

Those four are much clearer, but still WAY wordier than they need to be to get their mechanics across. Especially Spiritualist, since it has to reprint the whole Summoner class with slightly different wording and then some new features.

Still, it's a solid book. A lot better than the Advanced Class Guide Adventure Path.

[Zombulian]

I'd never really had a good read of the Dragon Compendium Urban Druid before...I never realized they were Cha based (assumed they were Wis, like regular Druids).

I'd be interested to play one in an urban campaign some time. They're obviously not the powerhouse that regular Druids are, but they still look like an interesting class to play. They could be a good face-type, with their skills and being Cha based.

One thing I noted though: under spellcasting it mentions Cha for highest levels spell and save DCs, but no mention whatsoever of bonus spells. Checked the errata, not mentioned there.

Would it default to Wis (as it does for most divine casters), or do they just not get bonus spells at all? A reasonable DM would allow bonus spells to run off Cha...

Huh, that Cha casting *is* pretty neat. A funky concept you can build with this is a Killoren or some other Fey acting as a vengeful champion of nature. Pick up Charm the Arrow for Cha to your crossbow attacks.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I've never felt like Mesmerist was overly wordy, which is part of why it's my favorite OA class. The other is being a more "aggressive" cousin to the Bard and I like pulling stuff with the tricks.

Speaking of weird, some of the Substitution Levels were a bit odd. Dwarf Fighters having the option of giving up bonus feats to get...Weapon Focus (Axes) and a worse Favored Enemy for instance

[ZamielVanWeber]

I've never felt like Mesmerist was overly wordy, which is part of why it's my favorite OA class. The other is being a more "aggressive" cousin to the Bard and I like pulling stuff with the tricks.

Speaking of weird, some of the Substitution Levels were a bit odd. Dwarf Fighters having the option of giving up bonus feats to get...Weapon Focus (Axes) and a worse Favored Enemy for instance

To be fair Dwarven fighter gets an improved skill list, bigger hit die, and the equivalent of a bunch of terrible feats at 1st, which makes it make sense.

That being said there are painful ones, like dwarf sorcerer failing to compensate for the extremely common -2 to Cha until it's last and the 3rd elf ranger option lowers your hit die and does weird things to your favored enemy in return for some highly situational bonuses.

Edit: These are PrCs but I feel the need to note that Vermin Lord and both Arachnomancer require you to be evil. Further, Vermin Lord requires you to be Vile Evil. Apprently liking bugs is a serious crime in the DnD universe.

[Kurald Galain]

Except, maybe, for "write a legible class," which I'd argue the Kineticist fails at harder than... honestly, anything I've read in any edition of D&D. It's a confusing mess.

He also clearly failed to decide whether burn is a good thing or a bad thing. That's pretty fundamental to the whole design, and the lack of a clear design goal here is one of the main reasons why the class is so completely messed up.

[Jormengand]

Let the record show that I participated in this thread and didn't mention it at all.

I know, it makes a great change.

[digiman619]

I know, it makes a great change.
*shakes fist at Jormengand*

[Wartex1]

For first party stuff, I think Medium is pretty weird.

As for third party stuff, probably anything with a Collective from DSP's stuff. It gets complicated really quickly with all the different powers and stuff.

[NomGarret]

What makes the medium particularly weird to me is how not weird it is. Whereas the binder and pactmaker fully embrace the crazy, with the medium it's all archetypal fighter today, archetypal cleric tomorrow.

[Jormengand]

*shakes fist at Jormengand*

*Shakes head at digiman619.*

[Grod_The_Giant]

What makes the medium particularly weird to me is how not weird it is. Whereas the binder and pactmaker fully embrace the crazy, with the medium it's all archetypal fighter today, archetypal cleric tomorrow.
It's really more like the Chameleon than anything else.

[digiman619]

*Shakes head at digiman619.*
Touché. Though to be fair, I only bring SoP up when a) there's a C/MD discussion, b) someone complains about Vancian, c) asks "How do I build <insert character concept Vancian doesn't handle well here>" or d) someone asks about it wanting to know more. I don't mention it in every thread I post in.

[Zombulian]

Weird classes also tend to be my favorites, so I've got a few to mention. The classes in MoI and ToM that have already been mentioned are all very interesting in their mechanics and fluff and I love them all, but here goes:

I mention the Trickster Spellthief a lot these days. It's probably my favorite class, possibly of all time. The weird part about it is that it's an ACF born from a rogue-like class that practically completely eschews any of its old native rogue-y-ness, but in exchange it becomes one of the most interesting mage classes. It gets sneak attack, but only 1d6, and never progresses it again (enough for Craven though!), it also loses trapfinding and a good chunk of its skills. But it gains the (already mentioned) quite potent Bard spell list and casting progression, on top of its already potent native spell list (the Sorc/Wiz list except for Conjuration, Evocation, and Necromancy). The result is a class that finds a practically completely unique niche as a (probably secondary) caster that fights or aids other casters very well (not unlike a Truenamer now that I think about it).


I'm not sure it's been mentioned yet so I figure I should bring up the Divine Mind. It's such a strange hodgepodge of concepts that just don't really come together like I think the designer was maybe hoping, but with ACFs can be a pretty decent Pokémon trainer. It's also the weirdest approach to Psionics I've seen in that it gains powers through faith? But in a more deified manner than the Ardent? Which does a similar thing but in a less contradictory way?


The Charlatan is probably my favorite PrC ever. It's a class that focuses entirely around the Bluff skill and your whole schtick is to pretend to be a caster while not actually having any magic powers? And it can WORK ON PEOPLE ANYWAY? Awesome.


The Spirit Shaman needs mentioning IMO just because it has my favorite casting mechanic that I think all prepared casters should have anyway. How are you supposed to explain having spell slots left in the day but you forgot how to cast the spell that you only prepared once?
Also their core class abilities around spirit stuff is pretty neat too I guess. Good for a Ghostwalk campaign.

[Jormengand]

How are you supposed to explain having spell slots left in the day but you forgot how to cast the spell that you only prepared once?

It's called preparation for a reason - you have to prepare the spell, and once you've used the magic that you prepared, you can't just pick it up and use it again any more than you can with a musket - it's not that you've forgotten how muskets work, it's that your musket needs reloading.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's called preparation for a reason - you have to prepare the spell, and once you've used the magic that you prepared, you can't just pick it up and use it again any more than you can with a musket - it's not that you've forgotten how muskets work, it's that your musket needs reloading.
The best way I've come up with to fluff/rationalize it is kind of along the lines of early Diskworld novels-- spells aren't sequences of words and gestures so much as they are discrete, semi-living entities. When you pray to your god for a spell, you're not getting knowledge of how to cast it, your god is reaching down and handing you a copy of that spell. When you memorize a spell, you're hauling a squirming arcane spirit out of its home in your spellbook and locking it into your mind* until you're ready to unleash it. Spontaneous casters, by contrast, are the natural homes of the spells they "know;" the spells naturally roost in their minds and bodies, returning after being cast.


*Also a good explanation of why it's so expensive and time/page consuming to record and copy spells; you're not just writing down a couple words, you're preparing a literary cage for the spell.

[Eldariel]

The best way I've come up with to fluff/rationalize it is kind of along the lines of early Diskworld novels-- spells aren't sequences of words and gestures so much as they are discrete, semi-living entities. When you pray to your god for a spell, you're not getting knowledge of how to cast it, your god is reaching down and handing you a copy of that spell. When you memorize a spell, you're hauling a squirming arcane spirit out of its home in your spellbook and locking it into your mind* until you're ready to unleash it. Spontaneous casters, by contrast, are the natural homes of the spells they "know;" the spells naturally roost in their minds and bodies, returning after being cast.


*Also a good explanation of why it's so expensive and time/page consuming to record and copy spells; you're not just writing down a couple words, you're preparing a literary cage for the spell.

The old AD&D fluff felt natural. While preparing spells, you actually precast 95% of them leaving only the trigger sequence. This precast spell is stored in your mind. Spells are really complex and taxing so this is the only way to cast any whatsoever. And storing/casting the spell is so taxing that emptying the mind to refresh oneself is needed to repeat the process.

[Psyren]

Touché. Though to be fair, I only bring SoP up when a) there's a C/MD discussion, b) someone complains about Vancian, c) asks "How do I build <insert character concept Vancian doesn't handle well here>" or d) someone asks about it wanting to know more. I don't mention it in every thread I post in.

I think that's an opportune time to bring it up. Keep doing you and don't let the haters get you down.



The Spirit Shaman needs mentioning IMO just because it has my favorite casting mechanic that I think all prepared casters should have anyway. How are you supposed to explain having spell slots left in the day but you forgot how to cast the spell that you only prepared once?
Also their core class abilities around spirit stuff is pretty neat too I guess. Good for a Ghostwalk campaign.


The old AD&D fluff felt natural. While preparing spells, you actually precast 95% of them leaving only the trigger sequence. This precast spell is stored in your mind. Spells are really complex and taxing so this is the only way to cast any whatsoever. And storing/casting the spell is so taxing that emptying the mind to refresh oneself is needed to repeat the process.

That fluff is still there in 3.5. right in the PHB.

[Arbane]

The old AD&D fluff felt natural. While preparing spells, you actually precast 95% of them leaving only the trigger sequence. This precast spell is stored in your mind. Spells are really complex and taxing so this is the only way to cast any whatsoever. And storing/casting the spell is so taxing that emptying the mind to refresh oneself is needed to repeat the process.

They actually had that in AD&D? First play I saw it was a Zelazny novel, and I thought "Finally, someone came up with an explanation for D&D magic."

[Sagetim]

Oh c'mon! In the first post? :smalltongue:



Though if you want weird classes including prestige classes, then the truespeak PrCs are pretty weird - Disciple of the Word is a monk/truenamer theurge which doesn't advance monk properly or truenamer at all, for example.

Meanwhile the Fiendbinder, due to the nature of it's prestige class abilities, opens up the ability to systematically annihilate the fiends that you can summon through the class. It may be a slow process, but with time, immortality, and enough abuse of fabricate, you could systematically learn the true names for a statistically significant number of babau, for example, bind them by their true names, and kill them. Because when fiends bound by that class ability die, they die for reals. No re-forming in hell or the abyss or whatever and steeple fingering as they enact some kind of 'just as planned' troll face.

Now, I'm not saying it's a wise plan, and you're probably going to get in trouble with someone enacting it, but it's one of the few routes in 3.5 by which you can permanently end a fiend.

Personally, I think the 3.0 soulknife prestige class was pretty weird. As I recall, at the time there wasn't a whole lot of options for going from fighter or rogue or what have you into something with some special abilities that wasn't just using magic and spell slots (sure, the assassin was around, but it had spellcasting bolted on). So having a prestige class that was all about 'I make a sword with my mind and kill people with it' was pretty damn cool to me. Also, strangeness of the choices they made in building 3.0 psionics aside, it's a quirky but not terrible prestige class for what it does. Unfortunately it takes forever for the mind blade in the prestige class to do comparable damage to your average weapon (let alone magic weapon that you would have by that level), but if you jumped in from fighter or something, you were getting a net increase in power (because 3.0's fighter feats sucked and that's what I'm comparing it to, because that's what was around at the time).

The Pyrokineticist was another psionics prestige class that was pretty weird. Mostly because it's class abilities didn't have daily limits. Bolt of Fire in particular caught my eye, because it scaled up to doing 10d6 damage. Sure, the abilities might not be super great because they're fire damage and all, but it was a class that was all about setting people on fire with your mind. And the prereqs were pretty easy.

[Sir Chuckles]

On the topic of Kineticist, I find that the entire Occult set is a bit messy. They tend to be a mile long in features but lack much of the "backwards" compatibility that the hybrid and even Base classes natively had. And that Kineticist feels like an odd duck out compared to the rest of the classes.

I will say that they tend to work surprisingly well in Gestalt. Kineticist loves getting access to things like Full BaB or Sneak Attack without losing levels.

[Sagetim]

On the topic of Kineticist, I find that the entire Occult set is a bit messy. They tend to be a mile long in features but lack much of the "backwards" compatibility that the hybrid and even Base classes natively had. And that Kineticist feels like an odd duck out compared to the rest of the classes.

I will say that they tend to work surprisingly well in Gestalt. Kineticist loves getting access to things like Full BaB or Sneak Attack without losing levels.

I think most of the weirdness of the class stems from how oddly Burn turned out. If it was just a bad thing that you want to avoid, then you could have a lot of focus on avoiding it and using it could be a very serious thing. If Burn was something that was basically just a good thing, then it would be something you're trying to get more of all the time and class abilities could reflect that by having you spend it for things. But instead it lives in this weird middle ground where, instead of accumulating a resource or spending a resource, you accumulate penalties for doing things at a competitive level.

Whenever I look at the class I feel like someone took the nerf bat to it's knees when it was still growing up, and no one put it through the physical therapy it needed to fix that. So now it's the class with wobbly legs.

[Sleven]

I'm not sure if I could pick a weirdest class for myself. WotC lost its ability to surprise me early on with non-functioning classes and abilities. However, I am frequently told that the rules for Sorcerer spells make them a weird class (i.e. "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."). Emphasis mine.

No other PHB class is worded like this, so people always seem to miss this fact about Sorcerers. Which, consequentially, makes the class "weird" for tables I play at or DM for.

[Thurbane]

Oh, the untold chaos that poorly worded Sorcerer clause has caused.

[EldritchWeaver]

They actually had that in AD&D? First play I saw it was a Zelazny novel, and I thought "Finally, someone came up with an explanation for D&D magic."

Pretty sure they changed that in the transitioning to 3rd. AD&D wizards didn't prepare, but memorize spells (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/28s0ai/add_2e_a_question_about_wizards_from_a_new_player/).

[peacenlove]

Shadowcasters were mentioned as weird but I wanted to expand on that.
-> Mysteries that are not spells / spell like / supernatural but function as such. Also have caster level and belong to a school of magic. That bars them from the usage of any serious magic item that enhances casting such as Arcanist gloves. Also too much text describing when they function as spells/sp/su and when not, sometimes contradicting itself.
-> Unless you are playing with the creator's fixes, you are the only caster that does not gain bonus uses through high ability scores. Even with the fixes you cannot expand your mystery list, unless you invest in Drake helm, and things start to get interesting since there is no provision given to what happens if you do so (Pathless mysteries). This becomes even worse when you try to import this class in Pathfinder rules.
-> Unlike incarnum, binders and Tome of Battle, you cannot get low level shadowcaster abilities through feats / items.
-> They get metamagic feats as bonus, which are completely useless to them, except fulfilling PRC requirements. Also feats are lost when you take a PRC but reacquired when taking a shadowcaster level.
-> Some mysteries are straight better than spells (Shadow evocation, especially when supernatural, break enhancement, Dancing shadows). Some are incomparably worse (Congress of shadow). If you wish to homebrew a path by using existing spells, you have no way of knowing if you made the correct choice.

Its not a bad class, with the fixes. To my experience is a solid T4 at levels before 7 and T3 after that (Shadow evocation is that much powerful). But it could be so much ... cleaner.

[Cosi]

How are you supposed to explain having spell slots left in the day but you forgot how to cast the spell that you only prepared once?

I mean, that's how (some) magic works in Mistborn. If you use all your iron, you can's do any more iron magic. It doesn't matter if you have a bunch of tin or copper or steel left over, you still can't use any iron.

Also, as others have pointed out, there is a fluff explanation for the mechanics.

[Psyren]

On the topic of Kineticist, I find that the entire Occult set is a bit messy. They tend to be a mile long in features but lack much of the "backwards" compatibility that the hybrid and even Base classes natively had. And that Kineticist feels like an odd duck out compared to the rest of the classes.

Honestly, aside from Kineticist, all the others have plenty of backwards compatibility. They are all (except Kinny again) spellcasters, which gives them access the mountain of options that work with spellcasters - things like metamagic, crafting, PrCs, racials, caster-specific toys etc.

[Eldariel]

They actually had that in AD&D? First play I saw it was a Zelazny novel, and I thought "Finally, someone came up with an explanation for D&D magic."

I may very well be wrong - I might've mentally superimposed the 3.5 model onto AD&D since it's been forever since I've actually read the AD&D books in-depth (and since back then I was rarely a DM, I haven't actually spent that much time studying them in the first place).

[Zombulian]

The best way I've come up with to fluff/rationalize it is kind of along the lines of early Diskworld novels-- spells aren't sequences of words and gestures so much as they are discrete, semi-living entities. When you pray to your god for a spell, you're not getting knowledge of how to cast it, your god is reaching down and handing you a copy of that spell. When you memorize a spell, you're hauling a squirming arcane spirit out of its home in your spellbook and locking it into your mind* until you're ready to unleash it. Spontaneous casters, by contrast, are the natural homes of the spells they "know;" the spells naturally roost in their minds and bodies, returning after being cast.


*Also a good explanation of why it's so expensive and time/page consuming to record and copy spells; you're not just writing down a couple words, you're preparing a literary cage for the spell.

Ooh I like this a lot :3

[Rynjin]

Honestly, aside from Kineticist, all the others have plenty of backwards compatibility. They are all (except Kinny again) spellcasters, which gives them access the mountain of options that work with spellcasters - things like metamagic, crafting, PrCs, racials, caster-specific toys etc.

For the most part, yes, though not PrCs. Since Psychic casters are their own magic type they don't qualify for most PrCs since a lot of them specify "able to cast X level Divine/Arcane spells". Likewise Psychic casters have no niche with Mythic archetypes since neither Hierophant nor Archmage work for them.

You can expand this to the other scattered options that require Arcane or Divine casting specifically, but those are few and far between.

Other than that though, yeah, Psychic casters are pretty much fully backwards compatible (or have a specific Psychic equivalent like the specific Page of Spell Knowledge variant they have and so on).

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I've seen the Discworld stuff combined with spells being sort of drawn from the collective unconscious before. So spells were sort of like demons in Shin Megami Tensei, drawn out of the sea of one's mind and caged through words and ritual in a form the caster could more easily hold distinctly in their mind. It was an attempt to explain why vancian magic had so many spells and why certain spells were exclusive to one setting/race or another. Those spells are representative of archetypal "magic thought" in those settings and cultures, like half-elves wishing they could suddenly unlock a hidden talent from their herotage becoming Paragon Surge

[Sleven]

Oh, the untold chaos that poorly worded Sorcerer clause has caused.

Eh, it doesn't really allow them to do anything they couldn't with only the Wizard list, and it still doesn't put them anywhere near the Wizard in power.

That being said, the chaos it's capable of causing greatly depends on the table you're at. The wording was very clearly intentional (even OA seems to recognize this with their inclusion of Wu Jen spells), but if people are adamantly against it (as with most rulings) I see no reason a player shouldn't drop the issue--particularly in a game with lower tiers.

[Psyren]

For the most part, yes, though not PrCs. Since Psychic casters are their own magic type they don't qualify for most PrCs since a lot of them specify "able to cast X level Divine/Arcane spells".

I don't know about "most" as I haven't dug through the PF PrCs, but there are plenty that do work with them.


Likewise Psychic casters have no niche with Mythic archetypes since neither Hierophant nor Archmage work for them.

Actually there are several mythic path abilities even under those two that don't actually care about the kind of casting you use (e.g. Abundant Casting.) Though one would hope that if your GM is allowing you to run a psychic class in a Mythic game that they would accommodate you.

[Rynjin]

I can think of a few good or niche PrCs that Psychic casters qualify for (like Evangelist or Hellknight/Signifier, though the latter requires them to eat a completely worthless Feat) but in general PF Prestige Classes are of the "Make one class super specialized in a certain thing" variety and thus require specific class features or the ability to cast a specific spell, etc.

"Most" might be an exaggeration now, since looking through the list on the SRD there's a LOT I don't recognize any more but there's quite a few with outdated prerequisites like "Ability to cast 3rd level Arcane spells" (like Arcane Archer, Arcane trickster, Technomancer, Bloatmage, etc.) and similar Divine equivalents (Exalted, Divine Scion, Gray Warden, etc.).

But it's just a nitpick either way. PrCs aren't a huge deal in Pathfinder, so they aren't missing out on much even when they don't qualify. The Feats are the bigger concern, and they're mostly compatible there.

RE: Mythic: The main issue is not being able to benefit from the bread and butter first tier abilities. With Archmage you're stuck with Mage Strike and with Hierophant you can't particularly benefit from ANY of them (even Spiritualists can't use Beast's Fury since even though Spirits are functionally identical to Eidolons they're considered separate). Losing out on Wild Arcana (and True Archmage) and/or Inspired Spell is pretty painful.

I agree a good GM would work with you to fix that, but by default they aren't fully compatible due to specific/strict wording.