Playing Inquisitive When You Aren't

[Donutfiend84]

I've been trying to help a particular player in my group interact with the world a bit more. (He tends to remain silent, outside of battles and literal character movement on a hex grid) He is a ranger, with naturally high perception, and as a result, is almost never caught on the receiving end of a surprise round.

Where I used to here complaints about being ambushed at lower levels, I seem to now hear an endless stream of complaints, any time a new enemy even enters the battlefield mid encounter. Examples might be guards throwing open the door to a side passage, enemy reinforcements coming from the rear, or monsters emerging from burrows at the sound of battle.

He complains "How anyone could ever sneak up on us. My passive perception is over 17." On multiple occasions, I've tried to explain these aren't ambushes, and signs of nearby life were given already due to the players high passives. In the above cases: Sounds of armored figures rushing around the side rooms, learning their rear guard had been forced to retreat, or noticing the burrows hidden among the pitch black walls, respectively.

But in all those cases, he's never once made a single comment or question, when presented new information about an area. Instead he continues running off to the edges of the available map, and winds up away from his party, often getting surrounded in the process.

The arguments go back and forth: I explain that interacting with the world is just as important as stats, while he makes sarcastic comments like "I guess I just have to announce I'm making a perception investigation in every single room from now on then." When I explain that if he was interested in any detail or information given, even a simple "A burrow? What kind of burrow?" would have likely given a wealth more info, he responded like this was a huge leap in logic, and totally unrealistic to expect.

He wants his skills to be more useful, but does not seem to want to engage the world at all. It feels like trying to DM for a sherlock holmes type character, but whos player interaction starts and stops at "I go to the crime scene."

I'm at something of a loss. I want him to feel like the cool ranger type he wants to be, but I can't seem to get him to ask a single question beyond 'what do I see.' Should I cut the subtlety entirely? You don't have to be a physically fit person to play a mighty warrior, so could the same be said for the aware, perceptive, or inquisitive? Is there perhaps some style of game/quest that might help encourage him to ask questions? Any help would be greatly appreciated. The stream of complaints is really killing the excitement and my drive to keep running this game.

[Koren]

He wants you to play the game for him. Anything he wants his character to do, he has to say so. The details you give without him asking are things he would have seen at a quick reasonless glance. Things he sees and hears when asking are broad investigations. Anything beyond that is a specific investigation. He can hear trees rustling without trying, but if he wants to know whether that is an enemy or wildlife he has to ask.

[N810]

Tell him he doesn't have passive investigation. :nale:

[Theodoxus]

Sounds like different issues at play here. But if you were to say, in the heat of combat "You hear approaching footsteps, perhaps half a dozen medium sized creatures are approaching. You estimate you have 3 rounds at most before they arrive." How would he react?

He's obviously not getting surprised - you're giving him a 3 round headstart. But it's also reasonable for the denizens of dungeons to hear the combat and come investigate.

So if his complaint is "how can they sneak up on us?" The reasonable answer is "you're not, you noticed them 3 rounds ago - that you ignored them is on you, not me."

[Emay Ecks]

I tell my players that passive perception is your DC for an enemy succeeding in a stealth (dex) or sleight of hand (dex) check made against them. It does not automatically reveal anything to a character. The PHB pretty much says as much.

PHB page 175: "A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without noticing dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."

Nowhere in there does it say "if the player doesn't request to make the ability check, the dm must make the check for them using their passive score."

[Unoriginal]

There is something I don't get.

Is he complaining that there are enemies outside of his range of perception?

[RSP]

He complains "How anyone could ever sneak up on us. My passive perception is over 17."


In 5e Passive Perveption lets you notice your surroundings, and it sounds like you're doing a great job of illustrating what his character notices. However, deductive logic is covered by Investigation, which can be used just like Passive Perception (technically we're always deducing what we know, just like we're always perceiving).

So in essence, PP allows a character to notice cracks in a wall, while PI allows them to realize the cracks form a door. In every game I've played we usually either skip the Investigation part (DM: "you notice a secret door"), or meta game it completely (Player: "okay these cracks are obviously a door of some sort").

The simplest answer I can see is to start using the character's PI to provide more info from the information provided from PP, while also explaining to your players this is how it'll be done.

Also, as someone else stated, you may want to explain that Surprise is a temporary condition that effects characters who are unaware combat is about to start. As the PC is aware threats are around, they aren't surprised, however, PP doesn't provide the information the Player seems to think it should.



But in all those cases, he's never once made a single comment or question, when presented new information about an area. Instead he continues running off to the edges of the available map, and winds up away from his party, often getting surrounded in the process.

The arguments go back and forth: I explain that interacting with the world is just as important as stats, while he makes sarcastic comments like "I guess I just have to announce I'm making a perception investigation in every single room from now on then." When I explain that if he was interested in any detail or information given, even a simple "A burrow? What kind of burrow?" would have likely given a wealth more info, he responded like this was a huge leap in logic, and totally unrealistic to expect.

He wants his skills to be more useful, but does not seem to want to engage the world at all. It feels like trying to DM for a sherlock holmes type character, but whos player interaction starts and stops at "I go to the crime scene."

I'm at something of a loss. I want him to feel like the cool ranger type he wants to be, but I can't seem to get him to ask a single question beyond 'what do I see.' Should I cut the subtlety entirely? You don't have to be a physically fit person to play a mighty warrior, so could the same be said for the aware, perceptive, or inquisitive? Is there perhaps some style of game/quest that might help encourage him to ask questions? Any help would be greatly appreciated. The stream of complaints is really killing the excitement and my drive to keep running this game.

People play RPGs, and D&D, for different reasons and find different aspects of the game to be fun. It's not wrong to love combat and just wanting to play dungeon crawls all the time with no role playing involved. Likewise, if people enjoy RPing and dislike combat, and therefore want to play more intrigue games, there's nothing wrong with that.

The important part is that everyone is having fun and it sounds like you're not. So I'd suggest changing and allowing PI, as stated above. Generally speaking, if you're looking to change someone else's behavior, which it sounds like you already tried and failed, it's probably not going to work: focus on what you control and you'll be better able to resolve the conflict.

And yes, in RPGs, you're generally playing the part of a character with different abilities and skills than you have. A non-Charismatic player playing a Bard should be penalized for the Player being shy anymore than an out of shape person playing a Fighter should be penalized for the Player's belly size (I'd not be able to play Martials!).

So I'd cut the Player a break: he obviously wants to play a certain type of character that may not fit his own abilities. His character sounds very attentive, inquisitive and involved, but that's not his personality. I'd allow them to accentuate the Character's abilities and not the Player's abilities.


Tell him he doesn't have passive investigation. :nale:

RAW, repeatedly doing the same thing, like "I guess I just have to announce I'm making a perception investigation in every single room from now on then," is a perfectly valid way to use Passive Skill Checks.



PHB page 175: "...Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again...

Though I should note this use of Passive checks cannot be done in combat without taking the Search Action.

[N810]

Pretty sure Investigation is a different skill.

[Alejandro]

He complains "How anyone could ever sneak up on us. My passive perception is over 17."

How would he react to "How could anyone ever perceive me, my stealth check was X" :D Success is not guaranteed, he seems to want constant, consistent results. Which is not tabletop gaming.

[Angelmaker]

I'd like to hear his interpretation of whats going on. However you could still do this: ask him to take a few encountes of the past and tell him to give you a description of how he would have run this encounte if he were dming for this ranger character of his.

This way you could pornably best determine if he has unrealistic expectations or if you are missing soomething.