Bladesinger / AT MC questions

[Captain Bob]

Hi friends, build question incoming for a new campaign. So! I have 8 levels to play with for the beginning of our new campaign (which is expected to reach a minimum of level 15)... As such, I'd like to hear opinions on the variation between the levels in each class. For example, my current dilemma has been whether to pursue a level 2 bladesinger / AT 6 build off the bat, or a BS 6 / AT 2 (into AT X) path. I find the comparison to lie within the utility of access to extra attack and haste with BS 6 / AT X, versus uncanny dodge, imminent evasion, expertise, and a few extra health from BS 2 / AT X. Thanks much!

[Arelai]

Why even go AT? Just for the special mage hand? Not worth.

[Easy_Lee]

BS 6 should in general be the superior option. You can haste yourself, hold an action to attack once, then use the haste action to attack. That doubles up your sneak attack any round you use it, and is a good general plan for DPR in a fight.

That said, I wonder why you wouldn't go pure AT or pure bladesinger, both of which have several advantages over this multiclass and more focus. What role are you trying to fill?

[Captain Bob]

The goal ultimately is to fill a more rogue type role with the benefits of bladesinging and a few extra tricks. I feel that this is a doable task with either set up in terms of stealth expertise and use of lockpicks etc., the question is will such a build would work best with more wizard levels (Invisibility, mirror image, haste, extra attack), or with greater investment towards rogue progression and reactions - given the eventual level cap, I feel that there is enough time provided to specialize in rogue eventually in either event. We already have an evocation wizard, I'm not trying to fill his role - this build would likely take largely utility picks or buffs from a spell list rather than save-contingent or damaging AoE stuff.

[Easy_Lee]

The goal ultimately is to fill a more rogue type role with the benefits of bladesinging and a few extra tricks. I feel that this is a doable task with either set up in terms of stealth expertise and use of lockpicks etc., the question is will such a build would work best with more wizard levels (Invisibility, mirror image, haste, extra attack), or with greater investment towards rogue progression and reactions - given the eventual level cap, I feel that there is enough time provided to specialize in rogue eventually in either event. We already have an evocation wizard, I'm not trying to fill his role - this build would likely take largely utility picks or buffs from a spell list rather than save-contingent or damaging AoE stuff.

If you already have a wizard, I'd go for pure AT, or a minimum amount of bladesinger if you're set on it. The more wizard stuff you do, the more you step on his toes. And the group can likely use your extra sneak attack damage. Let's not forget that someone else can cast haste on you; you're not a solo adventurer.

[Sans.]

Well in that case, I'd go the other way round with Arcane Trickster X/Bladesinger 2. You could maybe go one more for Mirror Image, but... meh.

[Finieous]

I'd say BS 5 (early access to 3rd level spells)/AT 10 (four ASIs in 15 levels). You can max Dex and Int, assuming you start with 16 in both.

I don't think you need Extra Attack. (You do need an owl.) Cast booming blade and disengage. Shield or Uncanny Dodge with your reaction, as appropriate.

Starting at 8th level (BS 5/AT 3), you get:
* Bladesong
* 6th level caster slots
* 3rd level spells
* Booming blade +1d8 (+2d8)
* Sneak attack 2d6
* Cunning Action
* Whatever spells you like, including booming blade, find familiar, shield, and haste.

Have to work at it to do it poorly, though.

[Malifice]

It requires Str and Cha 13+ but I'd go with BS 6/ Pal 2

Divine smite shores up the BS main weakness in combat.

[Biggstick]

The goal ultimately is to fill a more rogue type role with the benefits of bladesinging and a few extra tricks. I feel that this is a doable task with either set up in terms of stealth expertise and use of lockpicks etc., the question is will such a build would work best with more wizard levels (Invisibility, mirror image, haste, extra attack), or with greater investment towards rogue progression and reactions - given the eventual level cap, I feel that there is enough time provided to specialize in rogue eventually in either event. We already have an evocation wizard, I'm not trying to fill his role - this build would likely take largely utility picks or buffs from a spell list rather than save-contingent or damaging AoE stuff.

So a Rogue with the benefits of Bladesinging. Arcane Trickster 6 // Bladesinger 2 will fill that very nicely. You are absolutely not stepping on the Evoker's toes, and you're almost at the first real sweet spot for Rogues (level 7: Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and 4d6 Sneak attack damage dice).

Sure, you won't quite have Invisibility yet, but you're probably going to have 16-18 Dexterity plus Expertise (most likely) in Stealth. You're going to be able to sneak around pretty much everywhere you need to. Grab Disguise Self (you'll probably have at least a 14 Int modifier, as you're multiclassing Wizard, meaning your DC for the spell won't be terrible) and blend in with the areas you're trying to sneak around in.

You don't have to grab any of the first level Rituals with your Rogue spells known, as you can just put all those in your Spell book. You'll also have at least 6 cantrips depending on your race choice (High Elves are a great choice for the multiclass you're looking to do, either way you decide to go).

TLDR; Let the Evoker be the Wizard. Grab your 2 levels of Bladesinger along with 6 levels of Arcane Trickster. At character level 9, grab that 7th level of Rogue. If you still feel the need for your Spell book to have 2nd level spells in it, grab the 3rd level of Wizard, otherwise, stay Rogue.

[Kobard]

The goal ultimately is to fill a more rogue type role with the benefits of bladesinging and a few extra tricks. I feel that this is a doable task with either set up in terms of stealth expertise and use of lockpicks etc., the question is will such a build would work best with more wizard levels (Invisibility, mirror image, haste, extra attack), or with greater investment towards rogue progression and reactions - given the eventual level cap, I feel that there is enough time provided to specialize in rogue eventually in either event. We already have an evocation wizard, I'm not trying to fill his role - this build would likely take largely utility picks or buffs from a spell list rather than save-contingent or damaging AoE stuff.All you need for that is an AT rogue with at least a two level dip into Bladesinger. I'm a fan of the hypothetical AT Rogue 13 / Wizard 7 (or AT Rogue 12 / Wizard 8, if you really want that ASI), as that preserves and expands your 4th level spells - which you would lose with only a two level Wizard dip - and gives you more spell slots, spells known, ritual spells, etc. than you would have otherwise had going straight AT Rogue, which allows you to fill in the gaps of your playbook better than you otherwise could.

For eight levels, I would recommend Arcane Trickster 6 and Bladesinger 2. As the above post says, you would only then be waiting one level for your 2nd level spells, either taking AT 7 or BS 3.

(1) If you are also adventuring with a Wizard, then remember that you too can technically share notes. You can pick different spells for your respective Wizard levels and then add those spells to your respective spellbooks.

(2) As a reminder, you can also pick up Expertise in Thieves' Tools as a rogue. Sleight of Hands also works well for an Arcane Trickster who will be using their Mage Hand more liberally than your average Wizard.

(3) You have the right idea when it comes to the spell selection for any bladesinging rogue. Stick to spells that enhance your utility, mobility, survival, and rogue's combat prowess. Keep concentration spells to a minimum. Evokers don't scale as well, so let the Wizard pick the trap blaster options.

[Citan]

Hi friends, build question incoming for a new campaign. So! I have 8 levels to play with for the beginning of our new campaign (which is expected to reach a minimum of level 15)... As such, I'd like to hear opinions on the variation between the levels in each class. For example, my current dilemma has been whether to pursue a level 2 bladesinger / AT 6 build off the bat, or a BS 6 / AT 2 (into AT X) path. I find the comparison to lie within the utility of access to extra attack and haste with BS 6 / AT X, versus uncanny dodge, imminent evasion, expertise, and a few extra health from BS 2 / AT X. Thanks much!
Just choose whether you'd like to play with Magical Ambush in the end (hint: you should XD).

If so, start with the BS 2 / AT 6: only three levels later will you get Magical Ambush, and just after reaching that you should take another level of Wizard to expand your spell options.
(Well, honestly in your stead I'd actually start BS3 / AT5, because many 2nd level spells would help you much in surviving all the way until then).

If you don't care about Magical Ambush, but like to play all sword flurry like (Extra Attack, potential Haste), I'd probably pick Swashbuckler (if you have decent CHA) and in anyway keep Rogue 5 at most in the end build. So then the starting array would be the reverse (Wizard 6 / Rogue 2) and I'd go straight up to Wizard 8 to grab Warcaster before considering any additional level in Rogue.

The goal ultimately is to fill a more rogue type role with the benefits of bladesinging and a few extra tricks. I feel that this is a doable task with either set up in terms of stealth expertise and use of lockpicks etc., the question is will such a build would work best with more wizard levels (Invisibility, mirror image, haste, extra attack), or with greater investment towards rogue progression and reactions - given the eventual level cap, I feel that there is enough time provided to specialize in rogue eventually in either event. We already have an evocation wizard, I'm not trying to fill his role - this build would likely take largely utility picks or buffs from a spell list rather than save-contingent or damaging AoE stuff.
Didn't see this first time.
Well then, I'd stress the Arcane Trickster 5 / Bladesinger 3 option (unless you go Extra Attack way, see below).
More spells for you AND your Wizard pal (means you basically double up your spell known if you coordinate well, extremely gravvy), spells that directly help with sneaking (Invisibility, Misty Step) and spying (Comprehend Languages / Detect x).

As for Extra Attack...
Going the Extra Attack route is a good idea if you want to make a more magical, balanced and versatile gish. In that case, I'd recommend a single starting level in Fighter to get TWF style and better Concentration saves, and immediately aim to get Wizard 5 for Haste. Or even start with your "4-attacks-a-turn gish Rogue": Fighter 1 / Rogue 1 / Wizard 6 (then immediately level Rogue). You can still fill in the usual "scouting/spying" role very efficiently since you get the most important tools for that (Expertise and spells) while being a powerhouse damage-wise (although a squishy one) at least 3 fights a day.
In that case, I'd probably aim towards an end build of Wizard 14 / Fighter 1 / Rogue 5 so you get another +INT to stack on your weapon attacks.

If your intent is rather to be an Arcane Trickster with just a tad better spellcasting and AC (so Magical Ambush and Reliable Talent in scope), you can keep it as your main class and disregard Extra Attack. Against high AC enemies, might as well keep your Booming Blade tactic but buff yourself with Magic Weapon right now and later Haste (so still another chance to land Sneak Attack) or Greater Invisibility (advantage = high chance of success).

[Alejandro]

Just don't go full arcane trickster. We have one in our party, and they're, well... not exactly the most effective character, compared to the other options or multiclasses available.

[Kobard]

Just don't go full arcane trickster. We have one in our party, and they're, well... not exactly the most effective character, compared to the other options or multiclasses available.That's a bit vague. Would you mind elaborating a bit more about your experiences?

[Alejandro]

That's a bit vague. Would you mind elaborating a bit more about your experiences?

Well, although they are an arcane trickster, so far they haven't cast any spells, other than Shield on the rare occasion they get attacked and hit. The character tries to stay out of combat and shoot at enemies with a crossbow, so they aren't often targeted. They have a high INT, but don't get to apply it much, since they don't use any spells that use an attack roll or force a saving throw. I suppose in this case it may be poor player skill.

[Citan]

Well, although they are an arcane trickster, so far they haven't cast any spells, other than Shield on the rare occasion they get attacked and hit. The character tries to stay out of combat and shoot at enemies with a crossbow, so they aren't often targeted. They have a high INT, but don't get to apply it much, since they don't use any spells that use an attack roll or force a saving throw. I suppose in this case it may be poor player skill.
Well, I... Honestly would put my money on that. Having high DEX and using it on hand crossbow is a thing, you want to Sneak Attack after all, but having a high INT and not using it is a bit sad... Although it's still perfectly understandable, Arcane Trickster is a Rogue at core...

Maybe the player is just too afraid of just wasting his/her turn, and a small encouragment could go a long way towards he/her actually learning and trying offensive spells?

[Alejandro]

Well, I... Honestly would put my money on that. Having high DEX and using it on hand crossbow is a thing, you want to Sneak Attack after all, but having a high INT and not using it is a bit sad... Although it's still perfectly understandable, Arcane Trickster is a Rogue at core...

Maybe the player is just too afraid of just wasting his/her turn, and a small encouragment could go a long way towards he/her actually learning and trying offensive spells?

I suggested multiclassing into Wizard (they have an INT of 16..) since they really want to get a familiar, too. Instead they multiclassed into Cleric 2, Trickery, but their Wisdom isn't that great, either. I believe they plan to spend a feat getting Magic Initiate, Wizard, for the familiar. So, yeah.

[miburo]

Well, although they are an arcane trickster, so far they haven't cast any spells, other than Shield on the rare occasion they get attacked and hit. The character tries to stay out of combat and shoot at enemies with a crossbow, so they aren't often targeted. They have a high INT, but don't get to apply it much, since they don't use any spells that use an attack roll or force a saving throw. I suppose in this case it may be poor player skill.

Sounds like just not a great usage of Arcane Trickster. In melee, booming blade/greenflame blade + sneak attack is a pretty substantial DPR, and you can get Find Familiar as your 1st level "any" spell for that free advantage once per turn (as long as your owl lasts, anyway...) And you don't even need to multiclass for any of that.


Separately, I've been planning to play a high elf AT as well and considering whether Bladesinger is worth it, and if so how much. The multiclasses I considered were AT 18/BS 2, and AT 13/BS 7 (for the 4th level spells). I haven't thought about BS 3 but I guess 2nd level spells like Invisibility, Blur, Mirror Image, etc. are pretty useful to have up-front. The problem at that point is why not go another level for the ASI, and then another level for 3rd level spells, etc. You gotta stop somewhere...

If you do go AT 13/BS 7, what's the best progression to do? It seems like 4 levels in Rogue to get your first ASI is good. After that do you go BS 7 all the way to get bladesinging, 2 attacks, and 4th level spells? Or do you ramp up your Rogue somewhere along the way?

[Finieous]

I'd want Uncanny Dodge and Evasion before I really started piling up the d6-HD levels, but it probably depends on how tough your campaigns are. I'd probably go Rog 1-3 > Wiz 1-2 > Rog 4-7 > Wiz 3-7 > Rog 8-13. I'm getting ASIs at character levels 6, 11, 15, 16 and 18, which is slow, but I'm almost always attacking with advantage and have a ton of damage avoidance and mitigation.

[Citan]

Separately, I've been planning to play a high elf AT as well and considering whether Bladesinger is worth it, and if so how much. The multiclasses I considered were AT 18/BS 2, and AT 13/BS 7 (for the 4th level spells). I haven't thought about BS 3 but I guess 2nd level spells like Invisibility, Blur, Mirror Image, etc. are pretty useful to have up-front. The problem at that point is why not go another level for the ASI, and then another level for 3rd level spells, etc. You gotta stop somewhere...

If you do go AT 13/BS 7, what's the best progression to do? It seems like 4 levels in Rogue to get your first ASI is good. After that do you go BS 7 all the way to get bladesinging, 2 attacks, and 4th level spells? Or do you ramp up your Rogue somewhere along the way?
Hey ,)

About progression, I'd in fact start Wizard (in you prefer being directly good against control effects) or Rogue (in you prefer being better against AOE) but then immediately aim for Rogue 1 / Wizard 2.
Reasons for that?
a) Immediate (or nearly) access to cantrip: whatever way to go, Sneak Attack stacked on Booming Blade is an immediate damage upgrade at level 2, which is always refreshing.
b) Better AC earlier: technically, Arcane Trickster 3 would net you access to Mage Armor and Shield as well. But going Bladesinger 2 means not only access one level earlier, but also immediately better AC, concentration and spellcasting. Considering how easy it can be to get downed in the first levels, getting 19 (Mage Armor + Bladesong) instead of 14 (starting light armor + DEX) feels pretty compelling to me.
c) Better versatility: although invisible Mage Hand is great, having 6 spells from any school early on means you can replicate Dash as bonus action when really needed if you'd like (Expeditious Retreat), and otherwise get more Shield, Comprehend Languages, Sleep etc.

Basically, doing this achieves your character concept at level 3.

Obviously, the big drawback to that is pushing away Rogue progression by 2 levels. If you wanted to get something like Uncanny Dodge or Magical Ambush as soon as possible, this is not the best way.

Honestly though, I feel there is no "best way" objectively to build progression. Both classes synergize extremely well with one another, so it's imo more of a matter of "which spell/feature do I want to play with as soon and often as possible"...

I'd even daresay that a purely alternative (Wiz/Rogue/Wiz/Rogue) or 2 on 2 (+2 Wiz/+2 Rogue/+2Wis etc for quicker spell/SA bump) leveling could work as long as one would be okay with keeping the same toys much longer than a Wizard, or being a full-fledged Rogue (Reliable Talent) only by the end of his career.

[Finieous]

a) Immediate (or nearly) access to cantrip: whatever way to go, Sneak Attack stacked on Booming Blade is an immediate damage upgrade at level 2, which is always refreshing.


It's not a damage upgrade unless you have Cunning Action or eat an opportunity attack.