Sorcerer: the most unsatisfying class

[Easy_Lee]

Spawning this from the Kryx houserule thread. Sorcerers are the most unsatisfying class according to a recent enworld poll (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?575834-2017-Class-Satisfaction-Survey-Results).

Why?

To those who have played the base sorcerer and didn't like it:

What didn't you like about it?
What did you like?
In your mind, how should a sorcerer feel to play? What differentiates your ideal of a sorcerer from your ideal wizard?

I hope to spark a discussion with this thread. There are no wrong opinions.

[Sigreid]

I've got a sorcerer level 9 and I get frustrated by the limits on his spells known.

[Kane0]

Problem 1: limited spell list and spells known
I like to fix this by granting additional spells known at levels 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 much like land druids, cleric domains and paladin oaths.
There is also the point that sorcs don't get their own unique spells like other classes do, but I pinch spells from the Tome of Spells so that's not a problem for me.

Problem 2: lack of unique abilities and reliance on a single resource pool
I correct this by using the spell point variant rule for sorcerers only, merging their spell points and sorcery points, and moving the short rest recovery mechanic to come along sooner. I also use a wider array of metamagic options with more granted to a sorcerer as they level up.

This I feel makes the sorcerer more unique and fun while also boosting power just a touch to compete with warlocks, bards and wizards. They become one of the most flexible casters trading breadth and utility for depth and longevity.

[MeeposFire]

I am not a fan that the spells known are so limited that you really cannot get adequate (IMO of course) personal choices to go with a set of thematic choices at the same time.

I get that fixed by giving them bonus spells at levels 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15, and 17. You get two thematic spells for spell levels 1-5 and one spell for spell levels 6-9.

I think this gives them more spells than a bard but are restricted to one spell list for most of their choices and their extra spells are limited to their theme. A bard gets less spells but much more choice.

[ImproperJustice]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

I'm running a level 4 Phoenix Sorceror based on a 4 elements concept.

I always have a solution to problems even with the majority of my spells being somewhat blasty.

I have made frequent use of forgetting spells that don't work and gaining more of the higher level spells.

Twin spell and shifting spell slots around have gone a long way towards upping my action and spell economy.

Twinned 1st level spells only cost one SP, and do twice the work.
Bad spell roll? Just empower it.

I'm not there yet, but subtle and heighten spell look cost effective and deadly.

I get a lot of mileage out of my five cantrips. Mold Earth and Mage Hand (Fingers of the Wind) are great exploration tools. Twinned Shocking Grasp is fun, and works with Phoenix Mantle for those times when goons get too close.

Ritual Caster at 4th gives me all the utility I care for, and I have been pretty careful with my spell selection to give me a wide breadth of combat options.

I think the problem is not the Sorceror class but people's approach to it. It's like the Nintendo Wii of casters. It's simple, and does more with less power to be simply fun. And likewise, until enough people play it for themselves they won't see what all the fun is about.

As an aside: EN World is for people who approach D&D like they are playing Torchlight or Diablo. They are hyper focused on DPS, proc %, etc....
These are the same people that think all fighters should tank, Clerics should heal, and wizards should blast and any deviation from that is failing to be a credit to team.
At least that has been my experience over there and my prime reason for coming over to Giant in the Playground.

[Kane0]

Also I'm sort of surprised that sorcerer beat out ranger on that. Maybe the revised ranger alleviated that.

[Specter]

Other than the few spells known after level 10, I see no problem at all.

[90sMusic]

I have homebrewed my own little changes to sorcerer to make them a little better.

For example, a draonic sorcerer gains a cantrip that functions similar to eldritch blast doing 1d10 and gaining additional rays as you level up, but it's damage type is linked to the damage type of your draconic heritage. When you advance enough in levels to add your charisma modifier to the damage of your spells, it adds it to each attack with this cantrip in the same vein as agonizing blast does for eldritch blast.

They also have access to additional metamagic options like changing their cantrip into a dex save instead of rolling to hit, and taking half damage on a save, or changing it into a cone or line attack changing the dice from d10s to d6s but capable of hitting multiple enemies. They also have a metamagic option to convert the damage type of any spell they cast into the damage type of their draconic heritage.

Then at 18th level, instead of getting Draconic Presence, they gain the ability to true polymorph into an adult dragon of their type. True Polymorph typically isn't on their spell list, but it is available to wizards, warlocks, and bards, so I always thought it was silly Sorcerers couldn't do it as well, and this limits them specifically to only being usable on themselves and only changing into that one form. Always felt like the logical end game for a draconic sorcerer.

Also gave Dragonborn Sorcs the ability to refresh their breath weapon with sorcery points. :)

I also revamped wild magic quite a bit too.

[Sigreid]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

I'm running a level 4 Phoenix Sorceror based on a 4 elements concept.

I always have a solution to problems even with the majority of my spells being somewhat blasty.

I have made frequent use of forgetting spells that don't work and gaining more of the higher level spells.

Twin spell and shifting spell slots around have gone a long way towards upping my action and spell economy.

Twinned 1st level spells only cost one SP, and do twice the work.
Bad spell roll? Just empower it.

I'm not there yet, but subtle and heighten spell look cost effective and deadly.

I get a lot of mileage out of my five cantrips. Mold Earth and Mage Hand (Fingers of the Wind) are great exploration tools. Twinned Shocking Grasp is fun, and works with Phoenix Mantle for those times when goons get too close.

Ritual Caster at 4th gives me all the utility I care for, and I have been pretty careful with my spell selection to give me a wide breadth of combat options.

I think the problem is not the Sorceror class but people's approach to it. It's like the Nintendo Wii of casters. It's simple, and does more with less power to be simply fun. And likewise, until enough people play it for themselves they won't see what all the fun is about.

As an aside: EN World is for people who approach D&D like they are playing Torchlight or Diablo. They are hyper focused on DPS, proc %, etc....
These are the same people that think all fighters should tank, Clerics should heal, and wizards should blast and any deviation from that is failing to be a credit to team.
At least that has been my experience over there and my prime reason for coming over to Giant in the Playground.

I don't really disagree with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with the class, but as a player who prefers wizards it feels like putting a straight jacket on to me.

[Hrugner]

Their base archetypes are a bit too DM dependent for me. Their casting options are also narrow enough to be frustrating without being narrow enough to warrant the additional support the warlock gets. I don't think I'll ever get past the concept stage of making a sorcerer, I just don't see the appeal.

[Evorox]

I agree with most of these posts, they are jsut magical cannons with not enough flavor and oppertunities to really be anything other than a magical cannon

[Sigreid]

I agree with most of these posts, they are jsut magical cannons with not enough flavor and oppertunities to really be anything other than a magical cannon

Well, my sorcerer excels as a controller, but the point is still valid. You can control or blast but you more or less have to pick one.

[Kane0]

Fun thing to try: Changeling (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Eberron_v1.pdf) 'shapechanger' (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/07/mimicborn.html) sorcerer using the Spy background and Subtle Metamagic. UA/Homebrew approval needed of course.

Even then I'd like additional spells known, spell point variant and more metamagic to choose from but its still a damn fun infiltrator without resorting to bard/rogue.
I like to add these metamagic options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474296-Metamagic-Options-(PEACH)) into the list

[Safety Sword]

One of the problems I think is that they are probably supposed to have a theme to their spells.

But if you stick to the theme you end up just doing the same thing in every situation. Ever tried to play a lightning themed sorcerer? "Kill it" is literally the only way to stick to the theme.

Or, you can branch out and take utility spells. You will take the same spells every time. No matter the theme you're supposed to be going for.

I just think that the options are too narrow and the limited number of spells puts a cap on the fun.

[Deathtongue]

I think one of the reasons why sorcerers are unsatisfying is that they're at they're best when you play them completely counter-intuitively. For example, using Subtle Spell to dominate social encounters and Mexican standoffs, Twin Spell for double Polymorph and Greater Invis action, Quicken Spell + Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast, Careful Spell + Web / Hypnotic Pattern, the entire Sorceradin build, soforth.

Like, one of my buds at a home game plays a Hexblade Warlock 2 / Shadow Sorcerer 11. He's completely and utterly dominating; in additional to completely disgusting tricks like Web/Sleet Storm + Repelling Blast his Subtle Spell + Hex -> Wisdom Ability Checks lets him completely ruin one-on-one social encounters. But I also play SKT with a Sorcerer 10 who plays like a typical not-so-optimized Sorcerer would: bunch of damaging fire spells that matches his Gold Dragon ancestry plus a couple of utilities, Empower Spell + Heightened Spell.

[strangebloke]

I've only had one at my table. She had a lot of fun, but this was also her first character. She was more effective than the party wizard, but this was largely due to the party wizard being one of those 'optimize for a weird niche' kinds. Every spell the wizard took was either a charm effect or an anti-magic ability...

So they're supposed to be magical specialists, and they totally are...

But they don't get enough benefit for specializing as much as they have to.

Like, draconic sorcerer, right? You're committing to playing a single-element blaster. Your +CHA to damage only applies to one element and you only have spells known enough to get the spells for one element anyway. By level 10 you will have two metamagics, which is not enough to get just the evocation-relevant metamagics: empower, careful, quicken, and heighten. You certainly don't have room to pick up other handy metamagic like subtle or twin. Having options isn't bad, but it's pretty bad if you can't get stuff relevant to your concept.

Compare to the wizard. They get two metamagic options by level 10, a little bit of (low efficiency) flexibility through arcane fount, and a slightly stronger subclass than the wizard. They lose... 2/3rds the spells known, close to half the spells prepared, arcane recovery, and a third of the wizard spell list.

It doesn't completely fall on its face. Quicken and twin are incredibly strong. But overall, it's much weaker than the wizard.

I don't think its a fluff reason, exactly. I think they are just too weak.

[Theodoxus]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

I'm running a level 4 Phoenix Sorceror based on a 4 elements concept.

I always have a solution to problems even with the majority of my spells being somewhat blasty.

I have made frequent use of forgetting spells that don't work and gaining more of the higher level spells.

Twin spell and shifting spell slots around have gone a long way towards upping my action and spell economy.

Twinned 1st level spells only cost one SP, and do twice the work.
Bad spell roll? Just empower it.

I'm not there yet, but subtle and heighten spell look cost effective and deadly.

I get a lot of mileage out of my five cantrips. Mold Earth and Mage Hand (Fingers of the Wind) are great exploration tools. Twinned Shocking Grasp is fun, and works with Phoenix Mantle for those times when goons get too close.

Ritual Caster at 4th gives me all the utility I care for, and I have been pretty careful with my spell selection to give me a wide breadth of combat options.

I think the problem is not the Sorceror class but people's approach to it. It's like the Nintendo Wii of casters. It's simple, and does more with less power to be simply fun. And likewise, until enough people play it for themselves they won't see what all the fun is about.

As an aside: EN World is for people who approach D&D like they are playing Torchlight or Diablo. They are hyper focused on DPS, proc %, etc....
These are the same people that think all fighters should tank, Clerics should heal, and wizards should blast and any deviation from that is failing to be a credit to team.
At least that has been my experience over there and my prime reason for coming over to Giant in the Playground.

So... your solution is to use UA and feats to fix the base class... ok, cool.

@OP, while the small spells known is definitely a problem, the biggest issue for me is sorcerer's feel like tacked on cheese from the sacred cow milk of 3.5. Their only unique mechanic is metamagic, and that appears to be solely for the purpose of having the class! It's circular logic at it's worst.
There's literally no reason for the sorcerer to exist when you have the Bard. Sorcerer takes the worst parts of wizard (small spell list) and bard (no cool spells) and mashes it up into a pointless class.

Yank metamagic out, either keep sorcery points for bards and grant wizards x metamagic uses per long rest and warlocks y metamagic uses per short rest; or scrap sorcery points all together and come up with some other way (x/long rest - probably where 'x' = casting stat mod, maybe +prof bonus if you're really generous) and call it a day.

As I noted in the Kryx thread. Develop a Wild Bard - cuz that'd be fun as all get out, and move the Draconic sorc ribbons onto the Dragonborn race and you might see them a little more often...

[SharkForce]

I've only had one at my table. She had a lot of fun, but this was also her first character. She was more effective than the party wizard, but this was largely due to the party wizard being one of those 'optimize for a weird niche' kinds. Every spell the wizard took was either a charm effect or an anti-magic ability...

So they're supposed to be magical specialists, and they totally are...

But they don't get enough benefit for specializing as much as they have to.

Like, draconic sorcerer, right? You're committing to playing a single-element blaster. Your +CHA to damage only applies to one element and you only have spells known enough to get the spells for one element anyway. By level 10 you will have two metamagics, which is not enough to get just the evocation-relevant metamagics: empower, careful, quicken, and heighten. You certainly don't have room to pick up other handy metamagic like subtle or twin. Having options isn't bad, but it's pretty bad if you can't get stuff relevant to your concept.

Compare to the wizard. They get two metamagic options by level 10, a little bit of (low efficiency) flexibility through arcane fount, and a slightly stronger subclass than the wizard. They lose... 2/3rds the spells known, close to half the spells prepared, arcane recovery, and a third of the wizard spell list.

It doesn't completely fall on its face. Quicken and twin are incredibly strong. But overall, it's much weaker than the wizard.

I don't think its a fluff reason, exactly. I think they are just too weak.

minor correction: you get 2 metamagics at level 3. the one you get at level 10 is your 3rd.

still not enough to compensate for their limitations. but slightly less bad.

(also, unless your DM religiously follows dev tweets, careful spell is more of a CC pick than evocation. of course, if your DM does follow dev tweets, it might be more of a never-choose pick than evocation, unless everyone in your group has evasion or shield expert).

[Deathtongue]

Like, draconic sorcerer, right? You're committing to playing a single-element blaster. Your +CHA to damage only applies to one element and you only have spells known enough to get the spells for one element anyway. By level 10 you will have two metamagics, which is not enough to get just the evocation-relevant metamagics: empower, careful, quicken, and heighten. You certainly don't have room to pick up other handy metamagic like subtle or twin. Having options isn't bad, but it's pretty bad if you can't get stuff relevant to your concept.

This is what I was getting at. I don't think there's an official class that's as anti-synergistic with its base class features and its subclass features as the sorcerer. This includes actual 'bad' classes like the Bladelock and old-Ranger. All of the effective sorcerers I've seen either grab an UA subclass that actually does synergize (Stone Sorcerer and Old Favored Soul Sorcerer for Sorceradins; Shadow Sorcerer for everyone else) or just mostly end up ignoring their subclass and building around metamagic. Sorcerers that actually try to play to their subclass, like a Wild Mage sorcerer that recycles 1st level spells to trigger their Wild Magic or a Fireball Gold Dragon Sorcerer that stacks Heightened + Empower, end up floundering.

That said, sorcerers who do end up building around their metamagic and/or get a good subclass tend to shine or even dominate. So I wouldn't go as far as to call it a weak class. But it's still a very counterintuitive class.

[Jerrykhor]

I posted this on Enworld, so I'll just copy paste it here, and explain my points.

1. Tiny number of spells known
2. Cannot change spells known list
3. Balance of subclasses is out of whack (Fire Draconic is most viable, Acid Draconic is unplayable, Non-Draconic need spell knowns tax for Mage Armour/Shield)
4. No Ritual casting
5. No unique spells or cantrips (e.g Vicious Mockery, Hex)
6. Run out of Sorcery points super fast

Point 1, 2 and 4 are compared to every other full caster class (except warlock, because they are very different). I know bards cannot change their spells known too, but they have a bit more than sorcerers. Plus they have Magical Secrets.

Point 5 makes them unnecessary to the game because they are what happen when you strip off all the features that makes a Wizard good, and give them Metamagic. And herein lies the biggest problem: This feature is supposed to be their defining point, and yet it feels so limited. From the get go, you would notice that the balance is quite off. Some are good (Twinned, Subtle), some are useless (Distant, Extended). Anyways, you can only pick 2 (assuming you're below level 10), which feels too little, because they don't add anything that other classes can't do, they just make the sorcerer do the same thing a little better.

Sorcery points is also too few, and the problem is with the garbage Font of Magic. My friend once ask me this: Don't Sorcerers get to create spell slots with their Sorc Points? Yes they do. But lets compare it with Wizard/Druids Arcane/Nature Recovery. A 6th level wiz/druid only need one short rest to create a 3rd level slot. A sorcerer needs to spend almost all his sorc points to create a 3rd level slot. If you were a Wild Mage, you just lost Bend Luck, and all your Metamagic. Wizards or Druids don't lose their other features by recovering their spell slots.

And if one thing that irks me more than anything else, is that the Sorcerer don't have the mechanics to back up their fluff. For creatures born with magic, why do they even need an arcane focus or M components? Why do they need to chant the Verbal component when casting spells? They are BORN with magic, magic comes naturally to them. It should be innate spell casting. I do realise that means giving the Subtle Metamagic permanently to them, but that would be a good thing, because at least that would truly set them apart from Wizards. More importantly, they would FEEL like actual Sorcerers.

[Naanomi]

I've enjoyed the sorcerers I've played (three); but I built them all as 'specialists' from the concept stage so the limited Spell list wasn't a big deal. Two Wild Magic (one dwarven melee sorc; one 'curse' oriented character with Heighten and Bend Luck), and one Draconic (Aasimar/Gold Dragon chosen of Bahamat where I intentionally overloaded my Spell list with fiery blast spells every level).

Trying to be a Wizard in versatility will leave you feeling inadequate, but embracing the specialist role is fun sometimes (and no more limited than an Archer or the like who can only really shoot things with arrows in different ways)

[TheUser]

Makes sense to me. Metamagic is complex and costs resources that can be squandered doing nothing (twinned offensive spells that miss/save, quickened cantrips that miss etc). Not all of the metamagics are good or even well designed and two of the best have been **** on by errata and Dev tweets (twinned / careful). Most mechanically punishing class since it has an inherently entropic resource system; you can spend slots getting sorcery points or sorcery points getting slots but it's always a net loss of energy. Most restrictive number of spells known and small list of spells. Not built for noobies/casuals which seems to be the antithesis of 5e. So all these new players and casuals play it, **** it up and have a bad time giving it a bad rating.

Honestly if it wasn't for subtle and empowered I wouldn't give them a second thought....

My biggest beef is how Draconic feels mandatory because of the alleviating spells known.

[Easy_Lee]

My biggest beef is how Draconic feels mandatory because of the alleviating spells known.

I remember a thread when the first Favored Soul article came out. Everyone was excited about Cleric domains on a Sorcerer. People were coming up with builds such as a Trickery Sorcerer doing subtle mind control on people.

I do think building sorcerers toward a niche is the right approach. I also think that domains encourage that niche. That's probably why people like the dragon sorcerer so much; it encourages you to fill the blasting niche that sorcerers are pretty good at.

[Meepwizard]

First time player here. Maybe they could give other classes like wizard and bard metmagic, with the same number of points that a sorcerer would get at that level, but then let sorcerers themselves have access to every meta magic and more points to use for said meta magic

[Matrix_Walker]

First time player here. Maybe they could give other classes like wizard and bard metmagic, with the same number of points that a sorcerer would get at that level, but then let sorcerers themselves have access to every meta magic and more points to use for said meta magic

I think giving the other casters access to the sorcerer's metmagic schtick would only exacerbate the issue.

[Citan]

This feature is supposed to be their defining point, and yet it feels so limited. From the get go, you would notice that the balance is quite off. Some are good (Twinned, Subtle), some are useless (Distant, Extended).

I won't comment on the other points (too tired of the same endless discussions), but I had to comment on this: to dare say such a thing, you clearly never even tried to imagine how to use them in your mind (let alone actually playing with them).

Distant means you have a whole bunch of spells you can now cast efficiently without putting yourself at risk (many spells -like Blindness- have 30 feet which is damn short in a real fight. Even 60 feet distance -like Ray of Frost or Shatter- often still forces you to expose yourself for a turn).
Using it in combination with spells that already had a good range means you can actually enable some covert ops because you unleash them from so far away that the enemy has no chance to actually locate you casting it (although obviously if it's something like Sleet Storm they would ring the alarm).

Extend means many doubling the duration of many great utility spells (Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Fly, Darkness, Enhance Ability to quote a few), which often must be casted with some anticipation as to when will be the really important moment in which the effect must be active. Having twice the time means much greater margin of action.

These are good to great depending on spells and player's wits on any pure Sorcerer, and become extremely great once you factor potential level 1 dips in other classes.

[MeeposFire]

I personally think you either keep the sorc and keep metamagic to it or eliminate the sorc if you want to give meta magic out. Seriously metamagic was their attempt to make the class have any relevance whatsoever considering that the only reason that it originally existed was as a mechanical curiosity that is no longer needed as the current version of prepared casting is even better and gets more spells known. Since the original mechancial reason for the class is no longer really a good reason alone for it to exist you would need to create a mechancial reason to still have the class if you took away metamagic and that will be hard.

If you do take metamagic away it could be its own wizard subclass and you could make many sublasses using the subclasses of the sorc as a base such as wild mage. Doing this would eliminate the sorc from the game.

Personally I like just giving the sorc bonus spells based on the theme of the subclass they take (I also like how it eliminates its dead levels too) but you could do it this way instead.

[ImproperJustice]

I don't really disagree with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with the class, but as a player who prefers wizards it feels like putting a straight jacket on to me.

I can respect that point of view.

It's like Champion and Battlemaster

[Elric VIII]

I wouldn't say I'm unsatisfied with the class, but I don't think I'd want to play a single-classed sorcerer. I see Sorcerer as the other half of a magic-heavy gish. I love sorcerer as levels 7-20 of Paladin. Or even a DIY Arcane Trickster when paired with Swashbuckler.

The class itself feels incomplete. Metamagic is a nice bonus for a front-loaded martial class, but does not provide enough versatility or power to make up for the limited spell list especially considering that all casters are semi-spontaneous now. I would love if it was more like Pathfinder's Arcanist class that can use its spells to power basic effects like damage+debuff while leaving the spells known for utility.

[strangebloke]

This is what I was getting at. I don't think there's an official class that's as anti-synergistic with its base class features and its subclass features as the sorcerer. This includes actual 'bad' classes like the Bladelock and old-Ranger. All of the effective sorcerers I've seen either grab an UA subclass that actually does synergize (Stone Sorcerer and Old Favored Soul Sorcerer for Sorceradins; Shadow Sorcerer for everyone else) or just mostly end up ignoring their subclass and building around metamagic. Sorcerers that actually try to play to their subclass, like a Wild Mage sorcerer that recycles 1st level spells to trigger their Wild Magic or a Fireball Gold Dragon Sorcerer that stacks Heightened + Empower, end up floundering.

That said, sorcerers who do end up building around their metamagic and/or get a good subclass tend to shine or even dominate. So I wouldn't go as far as to call it a weak class. But it's still a very counterintuitive class.

Draconic sorcerers are long-range blasters whose abilities are 1:Mage Armor for free. 2:A buff to HP. 3:blasting damage buff, alright! 3:ability to spend a sorcerery point to get resistance?? 4:Wings, but way too late?

And then, the best metamagic options (twin and quicken) don't even help you!

Twin and Quicken probably need a nerf, whereas the rest of the chassis needs a lot of love. Every time I sit down to theorycraft I find myself saying: "I'm just going to be the double haste guy, aren't I?" That's not good.

[Nifft]

Sorcerer is an incredibly satisfying PrC for any Paladin.

:miko:

[Koren]

I think giving the other casters access to the sorcerer's metmagic schtick would only exacerbate the issue.

To further back this up, notice they make Magic and (more relevantly) Battle Master class features accessible to everyone (Magic Initiate, Martial Adept). Adding a feat that gives something like 3 Sorcery Points and one Metamagic, requiring the character knows one spell, doesn't seem all that out there.

Metamagic was meant to be unique for Sorcerers. It's just so... Stunted.
Overall I do think Sorcerers are fine though. They just take a lot of thought and consideration.

[Jerrykhor]

I won't comment on the other points (too tired of the same endless discussions), but I had to comment on this: to dare say such a thing, you clearly never even tried to imagine how to use them in your mind (let alone actually playing with them).

Distant means you have a whole bunch of spells you can now cast efficiently without putting yourself at risk (many spells -like Blindness- have 30 feet which is damn short in a real fight. Even 60 feet distance -like Ray of Frost or Shatter- often still forces you to expose yourself for a turn).
Using it in combination with spells that already had a good range means you can actually enable some covert ops because you unleash them from so far away that the enemy has no chance to actually locate you casting it (although obviously if it's something like Sleet Storm they would ring the alarm).

Extend means many doubling the duration of many great utility spells (Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Fly, Darkness, Enhance Ability to quote a few), which often must be casted with some anticipation as to when will be the really important moment in which the effect must be active. Having twice the time means much greater margin of action.

These are good to great depending on spells and player's wits on any pure Sorcerer, and become extremely great once you factor potential level 1 dips in other classes.

Is this another 'you're not creative enough' retort? I'm sure I could make Distant and Extend work if I try hard enough, but I don't think its worth it. You see, the thing about all the Metamagics is that, you have to pick the specific spells to make them work. Not all spells can be Twinned, not all spells can be Heightened, etc. If I need range, I pick spells with good range. Why use Ray of Frost when Firebolt is 120ft range? No point reducing their speed by 10 if you have to be within 60ft of them. Might as well be smart and stay at 120 ft.

I'm probably too harsh on Extend, but I judge it based on how often I wish I had it: Incredibly rare. I took Twinned and Empowered, and I often wish I had Heightened, Quicken, Subtle. But not Extend. Even accounting for YMMV and all, why do you need 20 min Darkness? Or 2 hour Enhance Ability/Comprehend Languages? You're unlikely to use the full duration because of the concentration requirement, whether its taking damage, or casting another concentration spell. If you don't use the full duration, the sorc point is wasted. And what a spell knowns AND spells slot tax to be taking Comprehend Languages. You don't have ritual casting, remember?

Also, would you really take those over Twinned, Heightened, Quickened, or Subtle? I think not. You only get 2 for most of your Sorcerer career, so those 2 fall under the 'can easily live without' category.

[SharkForce]

extend gets a lot better when paired with some other spell lists. for example, i can think of lots of situations where double duration free action or death ward would be nice (seriously, that's equivalent to a full extra 4th level spell for 1 SP... that's pretty awesome!); sorcerer doesn't just make a nice progression for paladin, i find it makes a good progression path for cleric as well :)

clerics already have lots of spells. and once they get to a certain point, their class features get a lot less exciting. but if you suddenly were to give them access to a few specialty options from the sorcerer spell list, plus metamagic, well now... that's a pretty appealing option.

still, that doesn't really do anything for the single-classed sorcerer.

[Potato_Priest]

I had a hell of a lot of fun with a mostly control/utility silver dragonborn sorcerer.

Through the magic of forgetting spells, I eventually lost all my 1st level spells, instead choosing to butcher them for sorcery points. Con saves meant that I didn't have to waste time on boring feats like resilient: constitution.

I really loved being able to cast at my highest spell level multiple times per day.

I can't really say why the sorcerer feels dissatisfying, but I might imagine that people tend to focus on damage and blasting too much over utility.

Because my 6th level feature only gave me increased cold damage, I felt free to experiment with all sorts of other fun utility and control spells. If I was, say, of gold dragon ancestry, I might have made the mistake of purchasing a bunch of fire based spells to complement it, which would really pidgeonhole me in many situations.

I would also postulate that sharing so many similarities to the wizard and the bard may make the sorcerer feel less "special" than they probably want to be, as, you know, a sorcerer.

[Findulidas]

Well I think the sorc is way more interesting than both locks and monks, both
of which I dont think I will play.

[TheUser]

Draconic sorcerers are long-range blasters whose abilities are 1:Mage Armor for free. 2:A buff to HP. 3:blasting damage buff, alright! 3:ability to spend a sorcerery point to get resistance?? 4:Wings, but way too late?

And then, the best metamagic options (twin and quicken) don't even help you!

Twin and Quicken probably need a nerf, whereas the rest of the chassis needs a lot of love. Every time I sit down to theorycraft I find myself saying: "I'm just going to be the double haste guy, aren't I?" That's not good.

You forgot the bonus language and advantage on dragon related diplomacy.

Wings are at just the right time; the spells known crunch is kicking in harder with +1 spell known/2 levels and it's concentration free.

As for Twinned/Quickened being mandatory... well it sounds like your "theorycrafting" is holding you back.

I can honestly say that the best sorcerers I have played picked neither of those metamagics at level 3.

I came to the conclusion you did when I first glanced over the class but both of those metamagics are extremely sorcery point intensive which limits their use greatly (and are not subtle spell). Maybe play it before you knock it in theory craft.

[Deathtongue]

Maybe play it before you knock it in theory craft.Without debating the conclusions of this argument, I hate this kind of thought-terminating cliche. Yes, theory-crafting has its problems, but 'this is what I've experienced in play' is subject to a lot of cognitive biases. CoDzilla was never sniffed out by practical experience, because few people complained about this particular build in 3.0E and even fewer before that even though I distinctly remember a lot of bitter debates over its primeval form, the Cleric Archer.

At the end of the day, I generically respect theorycraft over practical experience. At least theorycraft is subject to peer review.

[TheUser]

Without debating the conclusions of this argument, I hate this kind of thought-terminating cliche. Yes, theory-crafting has its problems, but 'this is what I've experienced in play' is subject to a lot of cognitive biases. CoDzilla was never sniffed out by practical experience, because few people complained about this particular build in 3.0E and even fewer before that even though I distinctly remember a lot of bitter debates over its primeval form, the Cleric Archer.

At the end of the day, I generically respect theorycraft over practical experience. At least theorycraft is subject to peer review.

Yes and I told him his theory crafting twinned/quickened misses the part about them being very sorcery point intensive; e.g. hella expensive. Which means he gets very little mileage out of his metamagic....

I'm still debating his theory craft with peer review...

[hymer]

My main problem with the sorcerer is more aesthetic than mechanical. I don't like any of the two subclasses in the PHB, and as such ruled it out as a possibility for my PCs for a long time. It's getting better with more options, but that first impression lingers.

[Citan]

Is this another 'you're not creative enough' retort? I'm sure I could make Distant and Extend work if I try hard enough, but I don't think its worth it. You see, the thing about all the Metamagics is that, you have to pick the specific spells to make them work. Not all spells can be Twinned, not all spells can be Heightened, etc. If I need range, I pick spells with good range. Why use Ray of Frost when Firebolt is 120ft range? No point reducing their speed by 10 if you have to be within 60ft of them. Might as well be smart and stay at 120 ft.

Also, would you really take those over Twinned, Heightened, Quickened, or Subtle? I think not. You only get 2 for most of your Sorcerer career, so those 2 fall under the 'can easily live without' category.
Sorry to disappoint you, but, yes, I could totally see taking at least one of those two for some Sorcerer builds...

Distant
Being able to debuff groups of people or apply powerful terrain control from the safety of a range that put me beyond most ranged attacks (including cantrips) and maybe even beyond plain detection (too far away to be seen/heard) is extremely good.
More generally, it gives you much much more freedom in positioning, including staying at covered positions from which you can easily hide or run away: as a Sorcerer (DEX-reliant armor so usually low armor, only d6 hit points), you REALLY want to avoid drawing attention.
In fact, along with Quickened and Subtle, it's the Metamagic that is the less dependent on spell choice.

Also, on a Wild Magic Sorcerer, it's useful if you are really wary of Wild Surges rolls (although there is no really good reason to): you can keep yourself isolated to avoid friendly fire damage.


Extend
Avoiding to waste a Feather Fall because you slightly underestimated the time you had to Fly to reach your destination, or because you had to make a detour.
Having two hours of one for Disguise Self or Comprehend Languages mean you are much less feeling like Cinderella when infiltrating a hostile hideout.
Having extended Hypnotic Pattern means more time to deal with another group of enemies or taking more time to infiltrate stealthily.
Having extended Delayed Blast Fireball means your careful ambush spell will inflict twice the damage.
Etc etc.

Soooo. Yes, I'm sorry, but it is indeed a plain and only lack of creativity on your part. You just don't want to try, otherwise I'm sure you could manage very well. ;)

[Deathtongue]

Yes and I told him his theory crafting twinned/quickened misses the part about them being very sorcery point intensive; e.g. hella expensive. Which means he gets very little mileage out of his metamagic....

I'm still debating his theory craft with peer review...It depends on what you use it for. Quickened Spell is IMO overrated for most sorcerers, but it's a godsend for a sorcerer that can use their regular action to do something else powerful -- Sorceradins are the canonical example. Twinned Spell is a waste if you're using it even for Disintegrate. It completely upends encounters if you use it for something like Phantasmal Force or Enhance Ability or Greater Invisibility or Polymorph.

[Solunaris]

I dunno, I found Sorcerer to be the most satisfying class I've played yet. It has super meaningful choices in it's spells and Metamagic is almost always fun. Hell, because of Metamagic I was able to out fighter the Fighter for a bit at the early levels. Laughing at him as I took 2 attacks a few times a day at 2nd level with my Swordcerer.

Yes, I said Swordcerer because I built a Sorcerer focused on walking up to the baddies and swording them to death. No, he wasn't a Paladin multiclass (until the Fighter dropped out and we needed a new front line at 9th level) and yes, he really did burn most of his spell slots to fuel Quicken Spell so he could Booming Blade twice in a single turn. Actually, it turned out spectacular when the Bard learned that casting Haste on the Swordcerer was a better use of the spell than on the Fighter or Cleric because it allowed the Swordcerer to disengage after two Booming Blades. Nasty little combo...

[Athoren]

I once played a mountain dwarf wild sorcerer who was a tank using buff spells on himself mainly false life and mirror image and enlarge reduce to stay alive while smashing things with his battle axe.

[strangebloke]

You forgot the bonus language and advantage on dragon related diplomacy.

Wings are at just the right time; the spells known crunch is kicking in harder with +1 spell known/2 levels and it's concentration free.

As for Twinned/Quickened being mandatory... well it sounds like your "theorycrafting" is holding you back.

I can honestly say that the best sorcerers I have played picked neither of those metamagics at level 3.

I came to the conclusion you did when I first glanced over the class but both of those metamagics are extremely sorcery point intensive which limits their use greatly (and are not subtle spell). Maybe play it before you knock it in theory craft.

Quickened I can see as not working for every part composition or build. It's certainly strong though, and it applies to a lot of builds. Basically any time a spell grants you something to do with your action (like telekinesis) quickened becomes your best friend. There are quite a few of these spells.

Twinned? Tell me the combat situation where casting haste on both the rogue and the barbarian is not the best first turn. The cost may seem high, but since it provides bonus for the full duration of the spell, it actually isn't. You couldn't make a third level slot for the cost of twinning one. Subtle is good in social situations, sure, but depending on the campaign, social challenges can be either constant or not present at all.

The best sorcerer I've seen in play used both of them to devastating effect.

Good options aren't a problem. Options that are always nearly the best, no matter the build are a problem.

[Clone]

Currently playing a Stone Sorcerer who goes into Melee a lot and, while I haven't had much of a chance to play him thus far, Subtle and Quicken have been lifesavers which I haven't been able to do as my Wizard.

The spells known limit is super annoying, so like everyone has said I'd offer thematic spells for the first 5 spell levels depending on subclass (but only 1 for each level instead of 2) but other then that I feel the main shtick of the Sorcerer is to have a tight concept and excel at that, which I feel it definitely can do. You'll never be the utility-caster and blaster to the same flexibility of a Wizard or Druid but you can bypass limits and grant reliability in situations where the others can't imagine to get.

That crucial hold person you need to get on the big bad for your team to win the fight? Heightened for Disadvantage.
Being chased by multiples of enemies and your party is almost caught? Careful Web spell.
Out of range of the enemy spellcaster and they try to cast a fireball to kill your team? Distant Counterspell.

Quickened and Twinned everyone knows. They require a focus or concept far more so than other classes, but with one they can't be super fun to play. I feel they definitely aren't as "New Spellcaster" friendly, but if you've played one before and don't have the urge to try everything out when you go up in levels, they do better.

Then again, my overall experience as a player being spellcasters has been heavily gish-inspired and otherwise I DM, so I'm sure some people who have played multiples of them could tell you their flaws far better than I

[TheUser]

Twinned? Tell me the combat situation where casting haste on both the rogue and the barbarian is not the best first turn.
Are you serious?
Well considering it uses concentration there are probably a lot of situations....
Any concentration spell that affects more than two targets is probably a good start.
How about the Web/Hypnotic Pattern/Fear/Slow that cripples 5+ enemies from the fight...
Now instead of waiting 10 rounds for the rogue and barbarian to make use of that turn you have front loaded the encounter by crapping on the action economy of your enemies.

Wall of Fire, Fireball or lightning bolt are probably some other great examples with empower.
Deal 5d8 + 5 damage and then re-roll low dice rolls. Hit 4+ enemies and the barbarian and rogue could use grapple/sentinel to keep the big enemies in the wall's Area of Effect (because rogues love sentinel). Because of how easy it is to alter the radius of the circle and to either make the flames deal damage outward or inward it's pretty easy to avoid hitting your allies.
If the wall kills any number of mooks on that one round you've front loaded the effects of the haste into the turn you've cast Wall of Fire (which granted is a higher level spell but is our substitute for talking about say...twinned greater invis).
Now you are responsible for dealing more than the damage their hasted bonus attack/action would have done except there's no need to confirm hits.

This is just what I can come up with at the top of my head.



Twinned Haste is great. The AC boost, the movement, the extra attacks, all fantastic. But saying it's the be all and end all of situational usage for every situation isn't just egregious hyperbole, it's wrong. Twinned Haste is great for BBEG's after you've gone and blown up any mooks, but lord help you if you get caught out and lose concentration because now it's cost you 2 people's turns plus your own turn used to cast it....


I'd much rather eliminate enemy actions in the turn I'd be casting haste using large empowered AoE's and disables so that the encounter swings early and swings hard.

[strangebloke]

I'd much rather eliminate enemy actions in the turn I'd be casting haste using large empowered AoE's and disables so that the encounter swings early and swings hard.

Apologies, my statement as I made it was wrong.

But twinned haste has many advantages that makes it an incredibly strong option in a huge variety of circumstances:
1. It can be upcast.
2. It is good regardless of your team composition. It's good for monks, fighters, paladins, barbarians, rangers, rogues...
3. It is good regardless of enemy team composition. The AC bonus helps more against hordes of mooks, while the extra attack helps more against BBEGs.
4. The sorcerer is very good at maintaining concentration relative to anyone else who can cast haste. Pick up warcaster for a 75% chance to beat a 17 DC check at level 11.

Moreover, we're not just talking about haste here. We're also talking about twinned fly, twinned ability score improvement, and twinned enlarge/reduce. AOE and CC in general is strong, but empower, heighten, and subtle are all much more niche effects than twinning something. It's all very well to say that for certain builds, subtle or heighten might be better, but a twin-buffing character will have a role in any party.

[Easy_Lee]

Metamagic is finicky. It can be used well, but it's often not clear how best to use it. Players don't know which Metamagics are actually going to be the best ones, which compounds with the sorcerer's relative lack of spell slots to create traps for players. I'll make a second note of that.

[Byke]

There have already been many posts on the Sorcerer issues and none of them have been addressed by WotC. The UA they have published have only exacerbated the problems (“New vs Old” Favored Soul and Lore Master).

I play a Sorcadin and Sorlock (Hex/Shadow) and they can be very effective in specific roles if built properly. (Sorlock twin polymorph has wrecked encounters). the Sorlock has been my favorite character to date.

The issues I have with the class:

1) Metamagic is lacklustre – sorcerer are already limited by sorcery point, why limit the choice of metamagic? – There are times I would have loved to have distant or heighten or careful to mold my spells and do something “interesting and unique”, but the reality is Twin, Quicken & Subtle are “always” the better choices. All metamagic should be open at 3rd level to give Sorcerer more options.

Also some new metamagic, would be nice, like energy substitution that was given to Lore Wizard should be in the baseline sorcery kit so that they can make their limited spells and all draconic ancestries viable.



And if one thing that irks me more than anything else, is that the Sorcerer don't have the mechanics to back up their fluff. For creatures born with magic, why do they even need an arcane focus or M components? Why do they need to chant the Verbal component when casting spells? They are BORN with magic, magic comes naturally to them. It should be innate spell casting. I do realise that means giving the Subtle Metamagic permanently to them, but that would be a good thing, because at least that would truly set them apart from Wizards. More importantly, they would FEEL like actual Sorcerers.

Very well said my exact sentiments – but perma Subtle would be OP, no focus or components would be cool though  For a caster born with innate magical abilities they “feel” like the worst casters in the game.

2) Sorcerer are just better with multi-classing, whether it’s with Rogue, Paladin or Hex(Lock), most of the deficiencies of the class can be “fixed” by multicasting or are just better than 20 levels in Sorcerer. There is currently absolutely no reason taking Sorcerer to level20, where is the powerful/useful capstone abilities of Druids or Wizard?

3) How limited spells known are. I just can’t understand the justification of so few known spells and the limited spell list, especially when compared to Bard. (We have houseruled + 1 extra spell every 4 levels from the wizard list which has made it more palatable to be a sorcerer)

Also why are iconic or “elemental” spells like Find Familiar or Absorb Element not on the spell list (feat tax?), what were the justifications for not putting them on the Sorc spell list? It makes absolutely no sense, if anything Absorb Element should have been a Sorcerer only spell.

At the very least Sorcerer should have been given access to the Wizard spells list so they could have created their own “identity”. If not where are the Sorcerer only spells? Because as it stand now without houserules an optimized sorcerer spell list will be exactly the same for all sorcerers, which is ludicrous. (Yes there will be some variety based on personal preference maybe 1-4 spells ( ie Web vs Hold person))

4) When I saw Lore Master I was kind of stunned, if they had called the class Incantatrix it could have been a Sorcerer subclass. Things like spells secrets and master of magic should be Sorcerer abilities. I still can’t understand why they would think giving them to Wizard was a good idea.

All this to say that Sorcerer are still a good class and with some optimizing and foreknowledge can make an excellent addition to any party. But the amount of effort required to make them so isn't justified.

[Typhon]

I like the concept of the Sorcerer. The execution leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Most of the reasons have been stated, limited spell selection comparably, limited number of spells comparably, very little in the way of class boons that give unique flavor, very limited but minor subclasses in the PHB.

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect a sorcerer to know or be able to learn as many spells as a wizard. Vast arcane knowledge is the wizards shtick. I don't see them being more entertaining or charming than a bard, that is the bards thing. I see warlocks being unique, but not as effective as a sorcerer in any regard. So I don't see how a sorcerer is more limited in spells known then a bard, less effective than a warlock, less arcane by nature than a wizard.

I think partly that falls on the design of the other classes, a topic that might get heated, and the feeling that they just stopped on the default sorcerer design mid-design or that part of their design got swapped with a different class, you know which one I am looking at.

I think bonus spells/magical effects and special spell access for each subclass would help, but overall they should have more spells by their nature. I also think that maybe some points like not needing a focus are valid, magic is in their blood so wouldn't they be the focus for harnessing that magic. Metamagic is cool, and a nice defining feature of the sorcerer. However, it is a very limited amount of metamagic and metamagic effects available and other classes/subclasses get as good if not better metamagic types of effects to enhance some or all of their magic.

I think the sorcerer archtype is iconic in fantasy, and I liked the design when initially introduced. The execution in 5e has me disappointed for many of the reasons that have been stated already. I hate to say I want to see a revised sorcerer, but I think it could have used a bit more work before release. I don't see it as underpowered, but it is not as easily or clearly defined in what the class is as some of the other caster classes.

[ImproperJustice]

While I am strongly on the side that the Sorceror is a fun class, I do wish you got another metamagic option at 7th level.
There is a long gap from 3rd to 10th.

[Easy_Lee]

I also think that maybe some points like not needing a focus are valid, magic is in their blood so wouldn't they be the focus for harnessing that magic.

To this point, it seems to be that sorcerer spells should never require either a focus or spell materials. Making them all subtle would be a bit much since that means nobody could ever counter a sorcerer. But the point stands. They don't cast spells the same way as other classes do, so they shouldn't be the same.

[strangebloke]

While I am strongly on the side that the Sorceror is a fun class, I do wish you got another metamagic option at 7th level.
There is a long gap from 3rd to 10th.

Oh, its fun! I just think it needs some love. Not much, just five or so 'thematic' spells known to go with each origin, better balanced metamagic... maybe a few origins that are more intuitive for new players.

[mephnick]

Subtle spell 100% of the time is OP for sorcerers but apparently OK for psionics because everyone is so horny for psionics for some reason...

I just give them +CHA to spells known and an extra metamagic at level 10. The couple players I've had seem happy with that. To be fair I only added the second metamagic at 10 because my setting caps at 12.

[Typhon]

I also think that maybe some points like not needing a focus are valid, magic is in their blood so wouldn't they be the focus for harnessing that magic.

To this point, it seems to be that sorcerer spells should never require either a focus or spell materials. Making them all subtle would be a bit much since that means nobody could ever counter a sorcerer. But the point stands. They don't cast spells the same way as other classes do, so they shouldn't be the same.

I didn't say default to subtle because that does make them OP at that point, as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread. However, removing the Material component and leaving the Vocal and Somatic components is not. I do believe you may have misunderstood what I meant. Dropping the need for an arcane focus/material components was my point.


Subtle spell 100% of the time is OP for sorcerers but apparently OK for psionics because everyone is so horny for psionics for some reason....

Focus on this discussion. Let us not start branching off in such a manner or we might get another what is an attack thread or why do people hate forgotten Realms thread. Either of which we don't need.

Your solution for your campaigns is slight and almost elegant. A very good utilization of the KISS methodology.

[Byke]

Subtle spell 100% of the time is OP for sorcerers but apparently OK for psionics because everyone is so horny for psionics for some reason...

I just give them +CHA to spells known and an extra metamagic at level 10. The couple players I've had seem happy with that. To be fair I only added the second metamagic at 10 because my setting caps at 12.


Our setting doesn't user psionics....ever...going back to our 3.X days. So it never clicked that psionics had perma Subtle :)

[Theodoxus]

The problem with the sorcerer is all casters in 5E are sorcerers. At least by prior edition standards which seems to be where the majority of players are coming from.

If Wizards were pure Vancian, and had to actually memorize a spell into each spell slot, Sorcerers would be a viable alternative. But wizards are just as "spontaneous" as sorcerers. In prior editions, sorcs got more spell slots, but a slower progression - more breadth for less depth, and we were fine with that - mostly.

Now, the only difference is the number of spells known (prepared) at a time. The slots are the same, level by level.

I still contend the best solution to "fix" the sorcerer is to remove it completely. Bards fill their niche anyway.

I think if I had the time and inclination and ran the zoo, I'd offer up each caster class with an optional subclass that uses a different casting stat. Charismatic Wizards would be called Sorcerers and they'd get Sorcery points with which to buy additional options. They could create a permanent spell slot (at the book cost now), or buy new spells at the cost of 1 point per spell level. Once an option is purchased, the sorcery points spent disappear. They get 1 point per wizard level (max 20). Might use them to buy metamagics too, potentially...

Then, they'd get arcane recovery like standard wizards, but they wouldn't use a spell book, and they couldn't learn new spells on the fly - just the 6 starting and 2 per level, and any they want to purchase with sorcery points.

I'm on the fence regarding subtle... Off the top of my head, perhaps allowing the sorcerer to reduce spell components to 1 for each spell might be a decent compromise... Want to cast fireball silently and without materials? Choose for it to be Somatic only. Want to just hold a bit of guano and lint in your hand? Choose for it to be Material. Want to play a Boffer LARP? Shout "Fireball!" and choose Verbal.

Would have to limit the components to what the spell already calls for... no Power Word Kill using a silent pointed finger :smallbiggrin:

Just spitballing, so wouldn't be surprised if I missed something and it'd be incredibly unbalanced... but I don't think so...

[Byke]

I still contend the best solution to "fix" the sorcerer is to remove it completely. Bards fill their niche anyway.



I posted the same thing over a year ago. Delete sorcerer and allow limited number of metamagic to the remaining caster classes or via feats.

Problem solved for everyone.

[Typhon]

I still contend the best solution to "fix" the sorcerer is to remove it completely. Bards fill their niche anyway.

That is really my biggest issue as well. I don't understand why the bard gets more known spells, not counting magical secrets, or even why they are full casters in the same vein as wizards and sorcerers. But that is for a different thread.

[TheUser]

I posted the same thing over a year ago. Delete sorcerer and allow limited number of metamagic to the remaining caster classes or via feats.

Problem solved for everyone.

Giving metamagic to all caster classes and removing the sorcerer just makes casters overshadow martials even more. This is not a viable solution.


To digress.
1 spell known / level + Charisma modifier in spells known would probably fix the class for most people. But it leads back to the pissing match between sorcerers and wizards wherein it becomes really hard to justify taking a wizard if sorcerers get this many spells known.

I believe the key lies in the idea that Sorcerers should feel tied to the magical world.

If Sorcerers could spontaneously add 1 spell to their spells known and can reset what that spell is after a short/long rest they'd probably feel perfect.

They wouldn't have the complete fluidity that wizards have through preparation, but would gain a flexible option to cast a spell they don't know because they're freaking magic.

Make it two different spells at level 5, 3 spells at 11 and 4 at 17 (essentially each tier of play).

So if you have 6 spells known at level 5 you now actually have a 7th and 8th spell that you can choose to cast but you decide what spell it is when you cast it. Once you do, you solidify the choice as your spontaneous 7th spell up until you rest and reset both.

In a bind and need featherfall? Well you can cast it with your "Improvised Magic" but now you are stuck with it until you short/long rest. It gives Sorcerers this cool "oh I can do that!" kind of feel but without making them supplant the wizard entirely. One is about foresight and planning the other is about flying by the seat of their pants.

It re-solidifies that sorcerers are meant to be these inherently magical casters and gives short rest worth to the class before level 20.

[strangebloke]

Yes, the utterly silly mechanical niche that sorcerers filled in 3e no longer exists.

Big deal.

Narratively, sorcerers are very much their own archetype, moreso than the psion.

You think Percy Jackson is a wizard? Or a cleric? At the start of the story he's barely literate and doesn't even know that the gods exist.

You think Corwin of Amber is a wizard? Or a bard? His magic is totally innate to himself, and while he is a musician, his music isn't even remotely magical.

Merlin himself supposedly derives his powers from his demonic heritage

Witches, sorcerer-kings, half-human magicians... they're a staple of fantasy, oftentimes coinciding with wizards and warlocks.



To digress.
1 spell known / level + Charisma modifier in spells known would probably fix the class for most people. But it leads back to the pissing match between sorcerers and wizards wherein it becomes really hard to justify taking a wizard if sorcerers get this many spells known.


Not if the spells come only from a crappy 'thematic' list that still forces the sorcerer to specialize. I don't think letting the fire dragon sorcerer burning hands, fireball, fire wall, and and immolate is going to be a big issue.

Wizards get 44+ spells known, 25 spells prepared, have a better spell list, and get to recover spells on a short rest. They're fine.

[Grim Portent]

I'd say what sorcerer's really needed was something similar to warlock invocations but with more of a focus on passive mystical properties. Sadly that would be too similar to warlocks, but this is just theory stuff.

Sorcerer's would feel more inherently magical if they had a small number of always on magic properties tied to their lineage with some customisation. Things like auras that debuff or damage enemies like the Storm Herald barbarians rage abilities, inherent bonuses to charming people if you can gaze into their eyes and overcome their saving throw, being healed by specific elements and so on.

The benefits you get for having the blood of a literal dragon flowing in your veins or being descended from a being of elemental water just seem so paltry compared to the powers characters often have in stories, though that is more or less a problem with everything in 5e since the scale of what characters can do is so small.

[jaappleton]

Its really weird, in that when I read the various Sorcerous Origins, especially the UA ones, I absolutely love the abilities of the archetypes. Draconic is solid, Wild is fun to play (but comes with numerous drawbacks), Stone has a lot of good abilities (Though I'd prefer to see it on a Fighter), Sea is pretty damn good, Phoenix is AWESOME (but the 1x / LR needs to go), etc.

It always comes back to the spells known for me. It really does.

[Deathtongue]

Wall of Fire, Fireball or lightning bolt are probably some other great examples with empower.

Empower Spell is a disappointing metamagic option and you shouldn't use it.

For example, let's say you're an 11th level sorcerer with CHA 20 and you're dropping a 5th-level Fireball, 10d6. You use Empower Spell whenever you get at least 5 dies that roll 1 or 2. Standard stuff.

So your dice sequence pre-Empower (since you get to choose when to use it) looks something like this: {1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5}, average 25, compared to the standard 10d6 fireball damage of... 35. So Empower on an above-average cast scenario gave you 10 extra damage. And remember, this is a favorable situation where you get to use Empower, where you rolled well below the expected mean. An ideal situation to use Empower spell (you have 5 or more dice out of 10 that rolled a one or a two) will happen on literally less than 3% of rolls.

Call me crazy, but that's a very underwhelming use of a metamagic point and, more preciously, a metamagic ability. Marginal utility is everything, and spending one of your metamagic slots for an ability whose best-case scenario is an average 10 damage and will most of the time do significantly less that that?

If you want extra damage that bad, use Quicken Spell instead. A Draconic Sorcerer of that level can shoot a Fire Bolt that does 75% (hit chance) x 3d10 + 5, average 21.5. Yes, it costs an extra metamagic point, but the extra damage is more reliable and more importantly Quicken Spell can be used for things besides squeaking out a little bit extra damage.


Twinned Haste is great. The AC boost, the movement, the extra attacks, all fantastic. But saying it's the be all and end all of situational usage for every situation isn't just egregious hyperbole, it's wrong. Twinned Haste is great for BBEG's after you've gone and blown up any mooks, but lord help you if you get caught out and lose concentration because now it's cost you 2 people's turns plus your own turn used to cast it....

I'd much rather eliminate enemy actions in the turn I'd be casting haste using large empowered AoE's and disables so that the encounter swings early and swings hard.Twinned Haste is far from the only use of that spell. Twinned Phantasmal Force, Twinned Enhance Ability, Twinned Charm Person, Twinned Greater Invis, Twinned Polymorph, etc.

[HolyDraconus]

Someone earlier in this thread referred to the sorc as a Nintendo Wii. I agree. You can call it 5e's WiiU, but the results will be the same: an outdated system even when it was new still running off of older gen tech that can't even run today's games that are on multiple platforms without cutting corners. The competition is far superior and can do the same things without skipping a bit.

[Deathtongue]

I'd say what sorcerer's really needed was something similar to warlock invocations but with more of a focus on passive mystical properties. Sadly that would be too similar to warlocks, but this is just theory stuff.Frankly, I see no reason why the game should have both a Warlock class and a Sorcerer class. They should be combined into one class, including fluff.

[TheUser]

Empower Spell is a disappointing metamagic option and you shouldn't use it.

For example, let's say you're an 11th level sorcerer with CHA 20 and you're dropping a 5th-level Fireball, 10d6. You use Empower Spell whenever you get at least 5 dies that roll 1 or 2. Standard stuff.

So your dice sequence pre-Empower (since you get to choose when to use it) looks something like this: {1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5}, average 25, compared to the standard 10d6 fireball damage of... 35. So Empower on an above-average cast scenario gave you 10 extra damage. And remember, this is a favorable situation where you get to use Empower, where you rolled well below the expected mean. An ideal situation to use Empower spell (you have 5 or more dice out of 10 that rolled a one or a two) will happen on literally less than 3% of rolls.

Call me crazy, but that's a very underwhelming use of a metamagic point and, more preciously, a metamagic ability. Marginal utility is everything, and spending one of your metamagic slots for an ability whose best-case scenario is an average 10 damage and will most of the time do significantly less that that?

If you want extra damage that bad, use Quicken Spell instead. A Draconic Sorcerer of that level can shoot a Fire Bolt that does 75% (hit chance) x 3d10 + 5, average 21.5. Yes, it costs an extra metamagic point, but the extra damage is more reliable and more importantly Quicken Spell can be used for things besides squeaking out a little bit extra damage.

Twinned Haste is far from the only use of that spell. Twinned Phantasmal Force, Twinned Enhance Ability, Twinned Charm Person, Twinned Greater Invis, Twinned Polymorph, etc.

Getting off topic there bud, I was talking about level 3 metamagic options from the get go. After level 10 taking quicken is a no brainer, cantrips get better and sorcerery points are more abundant. But let's grapple with the math real quick.

In your own example you've literally given yourself power attack on a fireball and added 40% more fireball damage on a 10th level slot using only 1 sorcery point. And it's not just 10 more damage... it's 10 more damage to how many targets? If you hit 4 or 5 targets that's 40-50 damage!

What's more this metamagic is usable with any other metamagic (including quicken); so you've economized not only the use of the spell slot but also the use of the turn and can apply other metamagics still.

Could you imagine using a level 5 spell slot to do only 25 AoE damage? That's the grim reality for any other spell caster that doesn't take empower. Now you spend 1 sorcery point and make it worthwhile every time, the slot and the turn.

I'm not saying Twinned Spell is bad....but come on man if you think doing 40% more damage on a spell using 1 sorcery point is a bad metamagic...like I dunno what to tell you.

[Spiritchaser]

I don't see any need to combine warlock and sorcerer

To my mind they are different in origin conceptually, and with an unimaginable variety of mechanical options for their powers, I think they can play as differently as needed.

I don't have a history of playing past editions, but I don't see why metamagic shouldn't be the sorcerers thing.

I would do one or more (but not all) of the following:

1. Add a few more metamagic options, then break the whole list into major and minor powers, then allow the player to select a fixed number of each to make some of the less popular options relevant.

2. Add more short rest resource recovery, probably of sorcery points.

3. Have more sorcery points to start with

4. Allow multiple metamagic options to be combined x times per long rest, possibly at discounted sorcery point cost

5. Add a few more spells to the class list for most subclasses.

6. Add more spells to the list, ensuring all elemental types are well represented.

[strangebloke]

snip.
Not quibble too much, but empower is actually better than that. The 10d6 is actually a bad example because the worst case is less probable and empowering gives you less than, say, 4d10.

If you roll 2 dice with 2 or less, which happens about 4% of the time, you get something like 7 bonus damage. So 7 out of 14, or a 50% damage bonus.

Granted, most spells don't use d10s or d12s.

[MeeposFire]

I got around the issue of the spell list problem and the extra spells in one go. Every subclass gets its own list of bonus spells known based on its theme which means you can devote your actual spells known to spells you wan outside of your theme. For the draconic sorcerer I gave it the same bonus spells for every version and what I changed was that the elemental damage type for all of those spells became the type that was for that type of dragon. So for example at 5th level the draconic sorc gets two bonus 3rd level spells one of which was fireball. That fireball does fire damage if you are a red dragon sorc or lightning if you are a blue dragon sorc. If a blue dragon sorc really wants to deal fire damage with the classic fireball spell they could take standard fireball with a spells known.

[Grim Portent]

Frankly, I see no reason why the game should have both a Warlock class and a Sorcerer class. They should be combined into one class, including fluff.

There should be mechanical distinctions between those who sold their soul for power and those whose soul is power, though I certainly think it should have been done very differently than the way it is now.

I actually think the 3.5 warlock was closer to what both sorcerer and warlock should be than either is currently, always available magic that could be used at will fits better for both concept.

I think warlock should have been designed so that it's powers were entirely alien to it, magic swords, dark servants and such boons rather than conventional spells in a manner similar to how witches have been portrayed in the past, and sorcerers should have had always on magical effects and abilities related to their power source and an innate ability to use magical items and scrolls.

Mechanically differentiating between a warlock and a sorcerer would be tricky since both would be based around non-spell magic, but I think it would be doable.

I would have the warlock pick an item or creature at 1st level, that is their familiar, all their powers are reliant on the familiar being nearby or held depending on it's nature and it's powers are mostly malign and hostile or directly protective in nature. You then build up what your familiar is from there with customizable options and some generic patron powers. Sort of a daemon summoner/bearer of a dark artifact type deal attached to a mid grade warrior chassis. Things like swords that drain life, ravens that grant you darkvision so long as it can see, shapeshifters that bear you aloft on loathesome wings only to return to being a cloak when you land or armour that shrouds you in darkness that devours arrows and dulls swords.

Sorcerer by contrast would pick their lineage (with it's associated element if any) and get a few generic boons and abilities mostly focused on themselves. Stuff like water sorcerers regenerating slowly while submerged, or fire sorcerers being healed by flames, blasting with elemental bolts, blasts and waves, access to always on flight or the power to slip through earth and rock like it was water, the ability to entrance with draconic eyes or surround yourself with hurricane force winds and such. Would probably stick it to a more generic chassis with some options being more warrior-y.

[Deathtongue]

Could you imagine using a level 5 spell slot to do only 25 AoE damage? That's the grim reality for any other spell caster that doesn't take empower. Now you spend 1 sorcery point and make it worthwhile every time, the slot and the turn.A level 5 spell slot with a base 10d6 damage, i.e. average 35, that did only 25 is something that literally happens <5% of time. This is certainly not enough to make it useless, but it's definitely stochastically disappointing compared to what you could've had instead, i.e. Quicken, Twin, Subtle, Heightened, Careful.

Also, I've been noting people have been using percentage increases rather than noting the raw damage. Wow, a 40% damage bonus, i.e. 7 extra damage! That'll totally make the difference in taking down one of these Giant Apes, each with over 130 hit points. My thoughts on that: You might not have noticed this yet, but, unless you're doing something like Prismatic Wall murder pinball or Destructive Wrath Call Lightning or Sorlock Hex Blasters, using your spell slots to do damage isn't the best use of your resources. 5E D&D doesn't make using your spell slots to do damage as hopeless a proposition as it was in 3E/Pathfinder, especially since 5E D&D's Bounded Accuracy system uses chaff mobs more frequents, but it's still suboptimal.

I mean, when TheUser initially poo-poohed the use of Twinned Haste, note that they directly went to battlefield control spells as an alternative and not, oh, Empowered Fireball.

[Regulas]

My take on sorcerer is that I would only ever pick it for very very very specific concepts that are based on unique elements of the class:

Taking subtle spell and heightened spell for an enchanter.

Taking storm sorcerer for the sake of a "close range" caster.

Twin and Heightened for a save or die DM hated specialist.

If there isn't a very explicit reason that I have to be a sorcerer it makes no sense to take the class over any other full caster that all get more spells and still have numerous abilities less restricted in usage as meta magic. It feels like they were too concerned over meta-magic being strong failing to account that 5e "do or don't" mechanics, bounding and other restrictions mean that a lot of meta-magic isn't actually as great as it sounds.

As a result they over restricted the class.

While most people want more spells known, personally I think they should just go back to more spell slots or sorcery points. Points per short rest? 1 extra slot for levels 1-5 ? I feel spells known just makes them more a wizard variant, while more spells or points makes them more unique.

[Easy_Lee]

Seems to me the issue with Metamagic is that it's fixed. Wizards can change their prepared spells, while sorcerers can't. But sorcerers can't change their Metamagic either.

[GorogIrongut]

I believe the key lies in the idea that Sorcerers should feel tied to the magical world.

If Sorcerers could spontaneously add 1 spell to their spells known and can reset what that spell is after a short/long rest they'd probably feel perfect.

They wouldn't have the complete fluidity that wizards have through preparation, but would gain a flexible option to cast a spell they don't know because they're freaking magic.

Make it two different spells at level 5, 3 spells at 11 and 4 at 17 (essentially each tier of play).

So if you have 6 spells known at level 5 you now actually have a 7th and 8th spell that you can choose to cast but you decide what spell it is when you cast it. Once you do, you solidify the choice as your spontaneous 7th spell up until you rest and reset both.

In a bind and need featherfall? Well you can cast it with your "Improvised Magic" but now you are stuck with it until you short/long rest. It gives Sorcerers this cool "oh I can do that!" kind of feel but without making them supplant the wizard entirely. One is about foresight and planning the other is about flying by the seat of their pants.

It re-solidifies that sorcerers are meant to be these inherently magical casters and gives short rest worth to the class before level 20.

I like this idea but would retweak it thusly:
1 Improvised Magic Spell between levels 1 and 5
2 Improvised Magic Spells between 6 and 13
3 Improvised Magic Spells between 14 and 19
4 Improvised Magic Spells at level 20 (to make up for the pathetic capstone)

I would also make it a rule that Improvised Magic Spells have to be taken from the Sorceror spell list as the norm. But a Sorceror is able to spend 2 metamagic points to pick a spell between levels 1 and 5 from any one class. If you attempt to do this again, but want to use a spell from the spell list of another class, you have to spend double the metamagic points (4). Any successive class spell list dips continue to double the preceding total (so from 2 metamagic points to 4 and then 8 and then 16 if you foolishly took spells from 4 separate caster spell lists before clearing things out during your Rest).
No spells can be taken from another class' Spell List of level 6 or higher.

I would also probably add a little bit to the Wild Mage, where they can do this for half the cost (1/2/4/8) and that upon doing so it resets the Tides of Chaos.

The only other thing I would change is what has been mentioned previously. The magic comes from the Sorceror. I don't see why they would need an Arcane Focus.

[WickerNipple]

Seems to me the issue with Metamagic is that it's fixed. Wizards can change their prepared spells, while sorcerers can't. But sorcerers can't change their Metamagic either.

I don't see the problem with just letting them have them all. Sorcery points will always be the limiting factor anyway.

[Deathtongue]

I don't see the problem with just letting them have them all. Sorcery points will always be the limiting factor anyway.I agree. There are definitely uses for pretty much every single metamagic, even niche ones like Extend Spell (Glyph of Warding cheese) and Distant Spell. The ability to cast Blindness at Range, even with a limited spell list, would make the Sorcerer feel less restrictive.

[Theodoxus]

Giving metamagic to all caster classes and removing the sorcerer just makes casters overshadow martials even more. This is not a viable solution.
I disagree - but since you didn't provide support for your supposition, I won't either - see how beneficial fun that is!



To digress.
1 spell known / level + Charisma modifier in spells known would probably fix the class for most people. But it leads back to the pissing match between sorcerers and wizards wherein it becomes really hard to justify taking a wizard if sorcerers get this many spells known.

I believe the key lies in the idea that Sorcerers should feel tied to the magical world.

If Sorcerers could spontaneously add 1 spell to their spells known and can reset what that spell is after a short/long rest they'd probably feel perfect.

Now this got my wheels spinning... Why not carry this thought through to the logical conclusion and build the sorcerer like the 3.5 Erudite? You have the same spell slots and same number of spells known as per the standard class. At the end of each long rest, the spells you know disappear, leaving you as an open canvas to mystical powers that reside inside you. But throughout the day, when you pick a spell to cast, it becomes part of your spells known - you lock it down; you can cast it as often as you have spell slots to support it. If you cast another spell, you lock that one down. It's the ultimate in 'wishful thinking.'

Now, to make it a bit more fun and chaotic, perhaps your origin locks in part of your choices. A draconic origin has to pick damaging spells that deal either Force or their origins' energy type.
A Wild Mage might have to randomly roll for half their spells known at the end of their long rest...

And then I'd allow sorcery points to be used to purchase additional spells for the day, same cost of the base spell level as the corresponding spell slot. This would bypass any origin specialization, so a White Dragon sorcerer could purchase a Fireball spell for the day for 4 sorcery points...

[Kane0]

I believe the key lies in the idea that Sorcerers should feel tied to the magical world.

If Sorcerers could spontaneously add 1 spell to their spells known and can reset what that spell is after a short/long rest they'd probably feel perfect.

Make it two different spells at level 5, 3 spells at 11 and 4 at 17 (essentially each tier of play).


Ooh, I like this idea. Mind if I pinch it?

[Matrix_Walker]

The problem is that they are far too stingy with metamagic options.

[Citan]

A level 5 spell slot with a base 10d6 damage, i.e. average 35, that did only 25 is something that literally happens <5% of time. This is certainly not enough to make it useless, but it's definitely stochastically disappointing compared to what you could've had instead, i.e. Quicken, Twin, Subtle, Heightened, Careful.

Also, I've been noting people have been using percentage increases rather than noting the raw damage. Wow, a 40% damage bonus, i.e. 7 extra damage! That'll totally make the difference in taking down one of these Giant Apes, each with over 130 hit points.
Congrats for dishonesty point! Seriously: either you were speaking seriously, and in which case the problem would lie not in Sorcerer mechanics but utter lack of tactical mind from your part... Or you were (obviously) making a stupid example on purpose to try and void his point. Ending in just decridibilizing yourself.

Because using a Fireball just to hurt two full-life Giant Apes is obviously not a smart play.

Let's take a more common example shall we? Fireball. Plain old Fireball, level 3, 20 foot radius, 8d6.
At level 5, at which you get the spell as a fullcaster, if you are fighting big groups of creatures (like more than 7-8 at the same time), the majority of them will probably be of ~CR 1 at most for a 4-man party (please anyone correct me if I'm mistaken, I'm not really good with CR encounter calculations). Which HP usually range from 25 to 40 from my sparse memory (ex Tiger ~35 hp, Spy ~30 hp, Ghoul ~20 hp).

Average roll of 8d6 is 3,5*8 = 28.
Let's say you rolled 5,6,1,4,3,3,1,1 (I actually triggered on roll on WotC roller ;)) for a total of 24. You choose to reroll all 1, so 3 dice. You roll 1, 2 and 5 (again, made a roll on WotC for fun). You got a net increase equal to 5 points, making your final roll equal to 29.
Before Empowered, you just outright killed Ghouls, put Spy in bad shape (1 weapon attack left), and Tiger is moderate shape (between 1 and 2 weapon attacks to kill it).
After Empowered, in addition to Ghouls, you would also put Spys so close to death than even a cantrip with half-damage on save would kill them, or Magic Missile, or any 1st level spell from a friend. Even Tigers would be only 1 hit away from death.

You usually don't use AOE spells if you don't hit at least 3-4 creatures (imo at least). So with Empowered, it's that much work less to do for your friends to take care of small fry, and instead that many more weapon attacks or other things they can unleash on the more powerful creatures.

Let's go for a single-target example?
Disintegrate. 10d6 + 40 damage, half on save.
6,2,2,5,1,2,3,5,1,3 for a total of 30 (I really don't make it on purpose, I'm just kinda unlucky with dice and randomness in general XD).
I reroll as many dices as possible, as a 11th level Sorcerer (I maxed Charisma) so 2*1 and 3*2. This time I got incredibly lucky (I know you won't believe me when I say this is not arbitrarily picked numbers XD): 5,6,3,6,6.
Upgrade of 26-8 = 14 damage.
Equal to the average of ~2 weapon attacks from a non-GWM martial pal.
Sure, it's not that impressive to be honest (agreed with you that high level damage spells are rather situational considering how much more you can contribute with other spells). Still, it can make the difference between down enemy and alive enemy (at least, I know I would only use that kind of spell only if I have a decent chance of finishing him off with provided I had a decent roll).
PLUS, it's compatible with Heightened. So although expensive in Sorcery point, it's a pretty reliable high-damage combo.


Seems to me the issue with Metamagic is that it's fixed. Wizards can change their prepared spells, while sorcerers can't. But sorcerers can't change their Metamagic either.
True that having one or two more Metamagic, or being able to change them at least between sessions, during downtime, could be very nice (I would find hard to explain a change as fast as long-rest fluff-wise but hey, that's me ^^).

I don't see the problem with just letting them have them all. Sorcery points will always be the limiting factor anyway.
There would still be a problem: why then progress? Beyond the multiclass problems, it would really void a good part of the fulfillment feeling of attaining new kinds of power.
However, allowing additional steps of Metamagic learning would be totally fair imo (and it's something I think most people already thought about anyways).

[AvatarVecna]

I went over the SRD spell lists, and looked at each class' list thinking "could this spell be used out of combat much?", and then kept a tally of all the ones where a few moments thought said "probably not without some pretty specific circumstances", and then compared the lists. I didn't look at domains or circles or patrons to see what spells they offered, for full disclosure.



Class
Combat Spells
Total Spells
Percentage


Bard
29
110
26.4%


Cleric
44
103
42.7%


Druid
40
104
38.5%


Sorcerer
53
120
44.2%


Warlock
22
65
33.8%


Wizard
78
201
38.8%



Alright, so an important distinction is the difference between Role Protection and Typecasting. Role Protection is like how only Bards, Rogues, and Knowledge Clerics have in-class access to double-proficiency skills; whether you agree with it being done or not, this was done to keep people from being able to steal the skillmonkey role from these classes too easily. Similarly, clerics, druids, and bards are the healers, and most other classes have limited healing ability. Typecasting would be like if, for instance, the cleric list was largely healing effects, from Cure Wounds to Greater Restoration to True Resurrection, and was significantly reduced if you didn't want to be a healer; Typecasting would be like if the vast majority of the bard's spells were largely useless outside of social interaction (which is true to a certain extent, but there's plenty of combat and exploration spells in their list too). It would also be the case if a class had nearly half of their entire spell list that was more or less useless if not used in combat...like the Sorcerer's list.

Okay, that's a problem, but the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are almost as bad, why does a 6% or 2% difference in percentage matter so much? Because all of those classes are prepared casters, and the Sorcerer is spontaneous.

A Cleric 20 has a "spells known" list for the day consisting of 25 spells picked from their 103 class spells, and they can pick different ones from the 103 list by taking a long rest. A Druid 20 has a "spells known" list for the day consisting of 25 spells picked from their 104 class spells, and they can pick different ones from the 103 list by taking a long rest. A Wizard 20 has a "spells known" list for the day consisting of 25 spells picked from their at-least-44 spellbook spells (which they have chosen over time from their 201 class spells), and they can pick different ones from the 44 list by taking a long rest (and can add more spells from the 201 list by spending money which is likely chump change for them at this level; putting every Wizard spell in the SRD in their spellbook would cost 36500 gp at most).

A Sorcerer 20 has a "spells known" list forever consisting of 15 spells picked from their 120 class spells when they last leveled up. Bards get more than that, on top of being awesome skillmonkeys. I don't think a dedicated Blaster!Bard would be better at blasting than a dedicated Blaster!Sorcerer, but a well-rounded bard vs a well-rounded Sorcerer will have more options in that regard. Warlocks aren't even real Vancian casters, and they get more options than that when you add in their patron spells. And of course, both of those classes have the option to just go into melee swinging if they wanna save their spells known for utility. Sorcerer doesn't really have the support to go meleeing with the others. Cleric and Druid are both pretty solid in melee even without spell support; even the freaking wizard has more melee options in their class.

But that's not to say Sorcerer can't be fun; if you don't mind the limited spell selection, and you've got a spell list that's versatile enough to let you participate all the time, you should have plenty of fun doing the same things over and over. But one of the draws of playing a caster is the multitude of options available; if I just wanted to do the two or three combat things I'm good at, I'd play a Fighter or a Rogue or a Monk...or, apparently, a Sorcerer. Meanwhile, Warlock and Bard aren't nearly as pigeonholed on their spellcasting front (and have plenty of non-spellcasting stuff they can do besides, between skills and invocations and inspiration), while Clerics, Druids, and Warlocks can just up and decide they've gotten bored of the things they're doing, and can swap out for completely different things. That session-to-session variety can keep things fresh, and the sorcerer doesn't really have something like that. If you don't mind having that limitation, Sorcerer can work for you, but if you do, it can start getting old, and swapping out a single spell at level up isn't going to be satisfying enough forever.

Actually, that's not quite true, Sorcerer does have one way of keeping things fresh from moment to moment: the Wild Magic chart! Everybody's absolute ****ing favorite, random sometimes-helpful-sometimes-harmful magical effects I have next to no control over, other than making the deliberate choice not to cast spells - you know, the class feature around every single other class feature is based on, and without which I'm basically doing nothing?

EDIT: Metamagic helps keep things fresher than they seem, of course. And I'm not saying this isn't a fun class to play, I've had plenty of fun with my Wild Sorcerer 5-12 in one of my online games, but I am saying that I can see why a lot of people might be less than satisfied with a caster whose options are so set in stone.
*braces for responses*

[Easy_Lee]

You shouldn't be able to use metamagic with non-sorcerer spells. Not because it's imbalanced, but because it doesn't make sense. Metamagic is tied to the sorcerer's unique magic.

[Regulas]

What if Sorcerer's just regained their points on a short rest and that was the only change?

[Naanomi]

So... a sorcerer's great failure is that they are barely more versatile as a mere non-caster?

[Regulas]

So... a sorcerer's great failure is that they are barely more versatile as a mere non-caster?

A lot less then a non caster (who get a lot of options people don't use, they just forget that you don't have to only attack as a fighter/barb etc.). A sorc has nothing but casting, with very few abilities total and special abilities so limited as to be regularly practical.

[Jerrykhor]

The problem is that they are far too stingy with metamagic options.

And stingy with Sorcery points too! Seriously, at the level where you just attained Metamagic, picking certain combination of options would only mean that you can use one of them once per day. And what about Font of Magic's converting sorc points to slots? Might as well don't exist.

Too many things require Sorcery points, too little of them. Just makes for a really unfun class.

[Matrix_Walker]

And stingy with Sorcery points too! Seriously, at the level where you just attained Metamagic, picking certain combination of options would only mean that you can use one of them once per day. And what about Font of Magic's converting sorc points to slots? Might as well don't exist.

Too many things require Sorcery points, too little of them. Just makes for a really unfun class.

Agreed.

Making Sorcery Points a short rest resource would be too potent I think though... But I could get behind the notion that half could be recovered on a short rest, or give a 1/long rest ability to recover them during a short rest.

[ImproperJustice]

Someone earlier in this thread referred to the sorc as a Nintendo Wii. I agree. You can call it 5e's WiiU, but the results will be the same: an outdated system even when it was new still running off of older gen tech that can't even run today's games that are on multiple platforms without cutting corners. The competition is far superior and can do the same things without skipping a bit.

And yet the Wii outsold its technologically superior competitors by an embarrassing margin. Just like MarioKart 8 sold more than the combined franchises of Halo and Call of Duty. They did so because they were simply fun.

Sorceror is similar. Lots of Grognards on the internet fussing about how this feature or that feature is underpowered and yet has not bothered to try and see how metamagic works in play. The joy of tweaking rules by running double concentration effects, crushing an enemies' save chances, or afflicting someone in a crowded room with subtle spell.
Not to mention moving around spel slots when needed....

But yeesh, I guess fighters would kill better with Barbarian Rage and Rogue sneak attack if we want to slap core class features from one class onto another....

[Xetheral]

You shouldn't be able to use metamagic with non-sorcerer spells. Not because it's imbalanced, but because it doesn't make sense. Metamagic is tied to the sorcerer's unique magic.

Interesting... my utter horror at this idea made me realize just how much my interest in the class revolves around multiclassing. I knew that was my main use for the class, but I wasn't aware it was basically my *only* interest. My opinion of the class just dropped further.

[SharkForce]

hmmm... noticing a lot of people arguing that sorcerer doesn't really even have a unique concept. i have to disagree there.

for some examples of what you can do with the concept that sorcerers come from:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495592-Sorcerer-Rework

(note: early comments in that thread are for early versions of the rework. the final version is quite different, so if you see discussion about something that doesn't appear to be reflected in the current document, that's probably why :P ).

i think there is definitely plenty of room to play with in the sorcerer origins, the problem is that WotC crammed a ton of power into metamagics, so there's no room to really make the origins feel like they're the theme of the class. kryx has removed metamagic from sorcerers entirely, which creates room for the origin to be the focus of the class, the way they probably should be.

(on a side note, i still don't agree with metamagic as feats... they're far too strong of an option to not take if they're available as feats imo. but of course, YMMV).

[Theodoxus]

(on a side note, i still don't agree with metamagic as feats... they're far too strong of an option to not take if they're available as feats imo. but of course, YMMV).

I'm curious, what mechanic are you thinking of, for powering a metamagic feat that makes them far too strong? Kryx's feat grants 3 sorcery "metamagic" points each time you take the feat... 3 points per long rest is anything but too strong in my book - I'd argue it's not strong enough - though stacking them, if you have the feats to spare, makes it a bit better...

[Kane0]

Okay, so taking into account my initial thoughts and a bunch of stuff in this thread i'd like to expand on my original response:

1: Spell availability
- The number of spells known is significantly lower than average
- There is a notably narrow range of spells available
- There are also no spells unqiue to the sorcerer list

2: Core mechanics
- Metamagic is the only core mechanic given to a sorcerer besides subclass benefits.
- Metamagic is restrictive in number of options known and their cost
- Some metamagic is simply not as good as comparitive benefits granted by competitors (evoker vs careful spell)
- Font of magic bleeds resources.
- There is no recovery mechanic nor any other resource pools to support longevity

3: Building & Fluff
- The most efficient way to play a sorcerer is counterintuitive to the way it is initially portrayed.
- It is easier to mess up a sorcerer build compared to other casters.
- Multiclassing is super efficient, there is little incentive to single class as sorcerer
- Sorcerers are described as innate magic users that bend magic to their whim, but nothing in the mechanics really supports that beyond metamagic in broad strokes.
- The niche that sorcerer occupied is no longer a thing, everybody is 'spontaneous'

So taking this into account, here is what I propose for those that accept a homebrew solution:



Level
Prof Bonus
Class Features
Cantrips
Spells Known
Spell Level
Sorcery Points


1
+2
Sorcerous Spellcasting, Sorcerous Origin
4
2
1st
5


2
+2
Metamagic (2)
4
3
1st
8


3
+2
Spontaneous Sorcery (1/LR)
4
4
2nd
17


4
+2
Ability Score Improvement
5
5
2nd
21


5
+3
Metamagic (3)
5
6
3rd
32


6
+3
Sorcerous Origin Feature
5
7
3rd
38


7
+3
Spontaneous Sorcery (2/LR)
5
8
4th
45


8
+3
Ability Score Improvement
5
9
4th
52


9
+4
Metamagic (4)
5
10
5th
66


10
+4
Dual Metamagic (1/SR)
6
11
5th
74


11
+4
Spontaneous Sorcery (3/LR)
6
12
6th
84


12
+4
Ability Score Improvement
6
12
6th
85


13
+5
Metamagic (5)
6
13
7th
96


14
+5
Sorcerous Origin Feature
6
13
7th
97


15
+5
Spontaneous Sorcery (4/LR)
6
14
8th
109


16
+5
Ability Score Improvement
6
14
8th
110


17
+6
Metamagic (6)
6
15
9th
124


18
+6
Sorcerous Origin Feature
6
16
9th
132


19
+6
Ability Score Improvement
6
17
9th
142


20
+6
Sorcerous Mastery
6
18
9th
153



Hit Die: As PHB
Armor Proficiencies: As PHB
Weapon Proficiencies: As PHB
Save Proficiencies: As PHB
Skill Proficiencies: As PHB

Sorcerous Spellcasting:
- Charisma based (no ritual casting)
- Spells known (can swap out one per level)
- Instead of spell slots use the spell point variant from DMG, refreshed on a long rest. Add sorc level to this pool and call them Sorcery Points
- When you finish a short rest you recover spent sorcery points equal to your prof bonus up to your maximum (see table)

Sorcerous Origin:
As per PHB

Metamagic:
Start with two as per the PHB with additional options granted at levels 5, 9, 13 and 17.
Metamagic is restricted to sorcerer spells only as the cost of adding a metamagic option is bundled into the spell's Sorcery Point cost.
Edit: Additional Metamagic Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474296-Metamagic-Options-(PEACH))

Spontaneous Sorcery:
Once per long rest you can cast any spell of a level you can cast as if it were one of your spells known. You gain additional uses of this feature between long rests as shown on the table.

Dual Metamagic:
Once per short rest you can apply a second metamagic to a spell you cast, paying the SP cost of both as normal.

Sorcerous Mastery:
Spells you cast without any metamagic applied have their sorcery point cost reduced by 1.


So what we achieve with this:
- Extra spells known
- Much greater flexibility and longevity without increasing raw power
- 50% more metamagic, evenly spread out
- Greatly expanded spell list with a usage limitation
- Merging the two major resource pools, getting rid of the resource bleed and simplifying play
- Creates a new mechanical niche for the sorcerer that no other caster occupies and is not easily abused by multiclassing into or out of.
- Rewards for staying single classed, with an actually desirable capstone.

[Jerrykhor]

Sorry to disappoint you, but, yes, I could totally see taking at least one of those two for some Sorcerer builds...

Distant
Being able to debuff groups of people or apply powerful terrain control from the safety of a range that put me beyond most ranged attacks (including cantrips) and maybe even beyond plain detection (too far away to be seen/heard) is extremely good.
More generally, it gives you much much more freedom in positioning, including staying at covered positions from which you can easily hide or run away: as a Sorcerer (DEX-reliant armor so usually low armor, only d6 hit points), you REALLY want to avoid drawing attention.
In fact, along with Quickened and Subtle, it's the Metamagic that is the less dependent on spell choice.

Also, on a Wild Magic Sorcerer, it's useful if you are really wary of Wild Surges rolls (although there is no really good reason to): you can keep yourself isolated to avoid friendly fire damage.


Extend
Avoiding to waste a Feather Fall because you slightly underestimated the time you had to Fly to reach your destination, or because you had to make a detour.
Having two hours of one for Disguise Self or Comprehend Languages mean you are much less feeling like Cinderella when infiltrating a hostile hideout.
Having extended Hypnotic Pattern means more time to deal with another group of enemies or taking more time to infiltrate stealthily.
Having extended Delayed Blast Fireball means your careful ambush spell will inflict twice the damage.
Etc etc.

Soooo. Yes, I'm sorry, but it is indeed a plain and only lack of creativity on your part. You just don't want to try, otherwise I'm sure you could manage very well. ;)
Don't need to apologize, I can accept differences in opinion. But aren't you awfully overrating them? Like I said, since I can only pick 2 of the 8 options, I'm not going to waste them on those that would warrant the use only once or twice in the whole campaign.

Your examples are hardly creative, or smart. You said 'Being able to debuff groups of people or apply powerful terrain control from the safety of a range...'Thats why I pick Hypnotic Pattern for its 120ft range. I don't think its very often that I am in vast open spaces with little stuff to block line of sight, so I seldom need more than 120ft range.

Sure, you can create a Sorcerer that is good at infiltration. Go ahead and do that with your tiny amount of spells known, and you gimp yourself in everything else. Why try so hard to do something you're not good at? The wizard can cast invisibility on its familiar and do a better job than you. Same for the Chain lock. Once they get Arcane Eye, you are useless.

You might be creative, but not smart. No point in being creative for creative's sake.

[SharkForce]

I'm curious, what mechanic are you thinking of, for powering a metamagic feat that makes them far too strong? Kryx's feat grants 3 sorcery "metamagic" points each time you take the feat... 3 points per long rest is anything but too strong in my book - I'd argue it's not strong enough - though stacking them, if you have the feats to spare, makes it a bit better...

what else are you going to spend feats on that would be even remotely as good for a spellcaster? you wouldn't be able to spam quicken, i suppose, but something like careful spell, well, the second time you pick the feat is probably allowing as many uses as you'll need to cover most adventuring days, provided there's some fights where you don't feel the investment of a spell (or the use of careful spell on the spell you decide to use) are warranted.

likewise, you'd get most of the value of subtle, extend, or some of the other options by the time you had invested for the second time. you have to consider the best use, not the worst one, and while i might agree 1/day heighten isn't that exciting, 3 uses per day shared between subtle and careful can be very strong. even quicken as something where you have that one trick up your sleeve for emergencies (being able to disengage and then fireball instead of misty step + fire bolt or acid splash) can be worth considering, at least once you've picked up a few of the interesting 1 point options.

[TheUser]

I like this idea but would retweak it thusly:
1 Improvised Magic Spell between levels 1 and 5
2 Improvised Magic Spells between 6 and 13
3 Improvised Magic Spells between 14 and 19
4 Improvised Magic Spells at level 20 (to make up for the pathetic capstone)

I would also make it a rule that Improvised Magic Spells have to be taken from the Sorceror spell list as the norm. But a Sorceror is able to spend 2 metamagic points to pick a spell between levels 1 and 5 from any one class. If you attempt to do this again, but want to use a spell from the spell list of another class, you have to spend double the metamagic points (4). Any successive class spell list dips continue to double the preceding total (so from 2 metamagic points to 4 and then 8 and then 16 if you foolishly took spells from 4 separate caster spell lists before clearing things out during your Rest).
No spells can be taken from another class' Spell List of level 6 or higher.

I would also probably add a little bit to the Wild Mage, where they can do this for half the cost (1/2/4/8) and that upon doing so it resets the Tides of Chaos.

The only other thing I would change is what has been mentioned previously. The magic comes from the Sorceror. I don't see why they would need an Arcane Focus.

Taking spells from other classes is a bardic niche that is pretty definitive of their class (pretty sure this is part of the reason loremaster gets some of the flak it does for being OP) and gifting that ability to sorcerers feels like it's not just stepping on their toes but is outrageously overpowered with metamagic in the mix.



I disagree - but since you didn't provide support for your supposition, I won't either - see how beneficial fun that is!

I thought it was pretty self explanatory...
There are scores of threads debating whether or not "casters rule and martials drool" and while it may be debatable, considering the question is never framed in reverse, it stands to reason that people are confident casters are very strong.

By giving all classes access to metamagic (through feats?) You create an avenue for casters to flourish moreso where martials without any casting ability cannot...(barbarians and all but one subclass of fighters, rogues and monks). Giving yet another option to casters and telling martials tough noogies.



Ooh, I like this idea. Mind if I pinch it?

By all means. My RL DM thinks I already break the game as a sorcerer so the odds of me being allowed this any time soon are minimal.

[Zman]

Spawning this from the Kryx houserule thread. Sorcerers are the most unsatisfying class according to a recent enworld poll (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?575834-2017-Class-Satisfaction-Survey-Results).

Why?

To those who have played the base sorcerer and didn't like it:

What didn't you like about it?
What did you like?
In your mind, how should a sorcerer feel to play? What differentiates your ideal of a sorcerer from your ideal wizard?

I hope to spark a discussion with this thread. There are no wrong opinions.

1. Lack of versatility. Just not enough spells to choose from. Limited list compared to Wizard. Wild Magic bloodline. Lack of bloodlines.
2. Metamagic, and Sorcerer Bloodline.
3. The Sorcerer needs to be the font of spontaneous magic. Metamagic and sorcery points are good, but the Sorcerery just needs more spells and some kind of short rest regen mechanic. I "fixed" this by giving the Sorcerer +Cha Mod spells known and letting them recover 2 sorcerery points on a short rest. I'd love a battlemage subclass giving martial weapons, up to medium armor and shields, maybe extra attack, and some kind of melee spell boost mechanic or something similar to a paladins smite. The wizard is the guy who studies spells and is limited by his rigid thinker, the sorcerer knows and feels the magic able to manipulate and shape it at will. Sorcerer's also need eschew materials so they don't need material components that aren't costly.

[Kane0]

By all means. My RL DM thinks I already break the game as a sorcerer so the odds of me being allowed this any time soon are minimal.

... Better stay away from the above then :smallbiggrin:


I'd love a battlemage subclass giving martial weapons, up to medium armor and shields, maybe extra attack, and some kind of melee spell boost mechanic or something similar to a paladins smite.

Level 1: Proficiency in simple weapons and shields, and your AC can never be lower than 10 + the highest spell level you can cast (ala barkskin but scales). Maybe also gain Aid as a bonus spell known
Level 6: Extra Attack
Level 14: When you take damage you can use your reaction to spend up to 4 sorcery points to reduce the damage taken by 1d10 per sorcery point spent. Once per turn when you hit with a weapon attack you can spend up to 4 sorcery points to deal bonus force damage equal to 1d10 per sorcery point spent
Level 18: When you use the attack action you can spend 3 sorcery points to also cast a spell with a casting time of one action. This spell must target yourself or one creature you have hit with a weapon attack that turn. You cannot add metamagic to this spell.

Rough draft of course, shame theres no level 10-11 subclass ability for sorcs

[djreynolds]

I think sorcerer is a good class, metamagic is really useful

I allow players on a short rest to actually change out the meta magic they are using, you no longer have to choose. Each short rest you just select which metamagic you are going to use. This has become quite useful. I initially did this because I just wanted to see spells that weren't always twinned or quickened, but my table has shown me that benefits to all 3 pillars is very big.

So at 3rd level you have access to all metamagic but you can only actively use 2 of them til you short rest again, and at 10th you have 3 you can change out during a short rest

You can also do this with only long rests. But it works

[Theodoxus]

what else are you going to spend feats on that would be even remotely as good for a spellcaster?

Well, we're talking sorcerer here, so, I've seen every draconic sorc take Elemental Adept, more for the piercing aspect than the 1=2 on damage, especially on fire based (Red and Gold) dragons. Ritual Caster is great on a sorc, since they don't get rituals innately and it greatly expands their spells known. Spell Sniper is basically 'poor man's subtle' in a lot of cases. 240' fire bolt is damn near undetectable in the right situations... the extra attack cantrip means you can pick up a more utilitarian one in its place, and of course Magic Initiate: Warlock for the EB/Hex combo is very popular.

For non-sorcerer classes, if we're looking at non-MC builds (because considering every MC option is problematic at best); valor bards, clerics and druids want warcaster is they're going S&B; Ritual Caster (Wizard) is still super useful, especially if you don't have a wizard in the party (or a tome lock as an option). Res Con isn't necessarily a must have (especially if you're taking warcaster) but nearly every build proposed takes it at some point. MI on a cleric to grab shillelagh is popular. Then of course, there's the ASI cost of taking feats instead...

You might not call them 'remotely' as good, but since I've never seen a 3 level dip into sorcerer for metamagic by any player, I just don't think metamagic is all that great... and neither does my group of players. YMMV, of course.

[Kane0]

Interesting... my utter horror at this idea made me realize just how much my interest in the class revolves around multiclassing. I knew that was my main use for the class, but I wasn't aware it was basically my *only* interest. My opinion of the class just dropped further.

Well, that's pretty telling.

[Zman]

:


Level 1: Proficiency in simple weapons and shields, and your AC can never be lower than 10 + the highest spell level you can cast (ala barkskin but scales). Maybe also gain Aid as a bonus spell known
Level 6: Extra Attack
Level 14: When you take damage you can use your reaction to spend up to 4 sorcery points to reduce the damage taken by 1d10 per sorcery point spent. Once per turn when you hit with a weapon attack you can spend up to 4 sorcery points to deal bonus force damage equal to 1d10 per sorcery point spent
Level 18: When you use the attack action you can spend 3 sorcery points to also cast a spell with a casting time of one action. This spell must target yourself or one creature you have hit with a weapon attack that turn. You cannot add metamagic to this spell.

Rough draft of course, shame theres no level 10-11 subclass ability for sorcs

I like some of that, but would go more this route.... spitballing here...My rough draft would be...

Level1: Proficiency in Simpe Weapons, one Martial weapon of choice, Light Armor, Medium armor. I like the 10+Spell Level minimum AC, not that it's likely to come up that often. Arcane Strike: Spend one sorcery point to add d4 to attack and 2d10 force damage on attack.
Level6: Cast Spell, make bonus action attack. We'll assume attack cantrips are in play. Arcane strike: spend 2 sorcery points for +2d4 to hit and +3d10 damage.
Level14: Arcane shield: spend up to 3 Sorcerer points for 1d10 damage reduction per so. Arcane Strike mad is 3 sorcery points for +3d4 to hit and +4d10 damage.
Level 18:Arcane shield 4 sp max. Arcane Strike 4 sp for +4d4 to hit and +5d10 damage.

[Citan]

Don't need to apologize, I can accept differences in opinion. But aren't you awfully overrating them? Like I said, since I can only pick 2 of the 8 options, I'm not going to waste them on those that would warrant the use only once or twice in the whole campaign.

Your examples are hardly creative, or smart. You said 'Being able to debuff groups of people or apply powerful terrain control from the safety of a range...'Thats why I pick Hypnotic Pattern for its 120ft range. I don't think its very often that I am in vast open spaces with little stuff to block line of sight, so I seldom need more than 120ft range.

Sure, you can create a Sorcerer that is good at infiltration. Go ahead and do that with your tiny amount of spells known, and you gimp yourself in everything else. Why try so hard to do something you're not good at? The wizard can cast invisibility on its familiar and do a better job than you. Same for the Chain lock. Once they get Arcane Eye, you are useless.

You might be creative, but not smart. No point in being creative for creative's sake.
Funny how you stay focused on one spell that is arguably one of the most niche available.
As a reminder, Hypnotic Pattern ends as soon as a creature takes damage.

So it's great out of combat. In combat, less so: it's very useful to allow friendlies to close in/out safely, but it far from the best option in any given encounter, unless you manage to put everyone visible under charm and have time to take care of them (tie them all up and hide/take them) before other enemies can see you and give alarm.
(With that said, with a true coordinated party, I could see it very well used so that martials can gang up enemies in one place before another caster unleash a decisive control AOE if you don't care about keeping them in good shape nor being sneaky ^^).

If you really want a true great spell for encounters, better pick up Slow: up to 6 targets (hard to get more in AOE in one time anyways), more manageable weakness (new save chance at each round, but you can wack them without question), immediate benefit on several aspects (lesser AC, movement, no multiattack, chance to lose spell)... And same base targeted stat, which is Wisdom. Potentially lesser, but much easier to work with for any party. :)

You know what other spells are very often used? Blindness (30 feet, very dangerous), Hold Person (60 feet, still in range of most "archers" kind of enemies), Counterspell (60 feet -also can be Counterspelled self), Shatter (60 feet), Polymorph (60 feet), Banishment (60 feet)...

30 feet means you are engageable by any enemy frontliner (if necessary with thrown weapon).
60 feet means you can be used as a training target by any decent archer (remember, Sorcerer usually means 14 to 16 AC at most for a good time).

In parties when people can easily cover for you (small corridors that can be blocked, martial with Protection keeping at your side) or when there are many places to cover and hide in the first place, sure, you don't usually need Distant that much.
In small party or wide environments though? How would using Distant to keep oneself out of harm be "not smart"?

Sure, you can make some cover yourself with Minor Illusion or Mold Earth, but the restriction on total width of shape you can create makes it impossible to create a cover that would make you safe from any angle.
That's when simple maths come into play: enemies would have to "strafe and advance" until then can find an angle of shoot. The more you are far from them in the first place, the more difficult it will be for them to do that.

As for creativity, well, sure, it's hard to be creative without any context so indeed I did not get any "creative example" here and now. ^^ Let me play a Sorcerer in one of your campaign then :)

[Glorthindel]

I think the problem is that the sorcerer was originally a solution to a problem that arguably doesn't exist any more.

Back in older editions, Wizards had to pre-memorise their spells. A lot of people hated this, because it meant you either took all-damage spells, and missed out on the utility part of the class, or took the utility spells and risked getting towards the end of the day with those spells unused, and really wishing you had another magic missile. Clerics had the same problem (with being pushed to take every spell as a healing one), but that was fixed in 3rd ed with spontaneous casting (that allowed them to hot-swap any spell for its same level healing one). The solution with Wizards was the Sorcerer. You now had the choice between taking a Wizard and having to plans your spells ahead, or take a Sorcerer, who had less spells to play with, but who wasn't forced to pick them in advance.

However, in this edition, with the decoupling of memorised spells from slots, wizards have been given the flexibility they were missing, and arguably sorcerers are now less flexible than the Wizard (since they can have less spells). Metamagic and Sorcery Points have tried to address this, but arguably there isn't really a need for the Sorcerer any more. In all honesty, I think the sorcerer has had its day, and everything it could do is done better elsewhere (Wizards have flexibility, Warlocks provide a non-educated path to Wizardry, Dragonborn provide the Draconic blood angle, and Wild Magic and Metamagic used to be Wizard-things that just got shifted to the sorcerer to still give it a purpose). I think rather than bending over backwards to still make Sorcerers relevant, they would be better off cutting it, and weathering the breif backlash.

[Garfunion]

I agree with everyone that the sorcerer lost what made them unique (spontaneous casting). A thought did go through my mind, what if the warlock lost their eldritch blast (along with all the invocation buffs for it) and the sorcerer pick it up. Could we use the cantrip to make the sorcerer unique again?

Edit: also if their power comes from the "blood" maybe make Constitution their spellcaster modifier.

[SharkForce]

Well, we're talking sorcerer here, so, I've seen every draconic sorc take Elemental Adept, more for the piercing aspect than the 1=2 on damage, especially on fire based (Red and Gold) dragons. Ritual Caster is great on a sorc, since they don't get rituals innately and it greatly expands their spells known. Spell Sniper is basically 'poor man's subtle' in a lot of cases. 240' fire bolt is damn near undetectable in the right situations... the extra attack cantrip means you can pick up a more utilitarian one in its place, and of course Magic Initiate: Warlock for the EB/Hex combo is very popular.

For non-sorcerer classes, if we're looking at non-MC builds (because considering every MC option is problematic at best); valor bards, clerics and druids want warcaster is they're going S&B; Ritual Caster (Wizard) is still super useful, especially if you don't have a wizard in the party (or a tome lock as an option). Res Con isn't necessarily a must have (especially if you're taking warcaster) but nearly every build proposed takes it at some point. MI on a cleric to grab shillelagh is popular. Then of course, there's the ASI cost of taking feats instead...

You might not call them 'remotely' as good, but since I've never seen a 3 level dip into sorcerer for metamagic by any player, I just don't think metamagic is all that great... and neither does my group of players. YMMV, of course.

you've never seen anyone dip 3 sorcerer for metamagic because 3 level dips are a very high cost. a feat is something around 1/2 a level.

to put it into perspective, let's look at other feats that give class features; magic initiate and martial adept.

magic initiate gives you 2 cantrips and a single level 1 spell known (and a slot for it per day). that's less than 1 level of any full spellcasting class you could've chosen as benefit. it's somewhere around half of first level for many spellcasters. likewise, martial adept gives you 2/3 as many maneuvers, and 1/4 the number of dice, and that one die is weaker than a battlemasters (granted, many people consider that feat underpowered, but none of them to my knowledge give you 4d8 for superiority die and 3 maneuvers... most just seem to add a second die as the benefit).

2 metamagics and 3 sorcery points is literally getting what the current sorcerer only gets at level 3, and it's packing it all into feats. that's a fair bit more powerful than any other similar feat.

yes, there are all kinds of feats available to casters. there are very few that i would consider remotely competitive with kryx's metamagic feats for any spellcaster. including the 1/2 and 1/3 casters. metamagic is basically the entirety of the value of the official 5e sorcerer... nothing else they get is even remotely close in value. it is so good of an ability that in spite of all the sorcerer's excessively harsh limitations, many people actually love playing sorcerers, and not just the people who've fixed it either. it represents so much power that it was nearly impossible to give the sorcerer anything at all because even with all those unsatisfying limitations, metamagic was powerful enough that there was no room to add anything else to sorcerer... pretty sure that's half the reason kryx turned metamagic into feats in the end, really; to create some room to put actual unique abilities that make the sorcerer feel like the inheritor of a powerful bloodline into the class.

metamagic in feats is a *huge* amount of power being given away, and a feat is really just not nearly enough of a cost, imo. YMMV, of course... but that's why i think metamagic as feats is too much.

[Citan]

By the way, for those who really have a gripe with the number of spell known...

Here is a fix that I didn't have a chance to test myself but that seems very fitting with the class's fluff (inner magic, spontaneous).

-------
Intuitive Casting
When you reach 5th level, your awareness of inner magic has grown strong enough to allow you to experiment effects you did not specifically train into but that you witnessed first-hand.
Instead of casting one of your spell known, you can use a spell slot to instead try to cast one of the spells that you saw cast in front of you (whether you were affected or not yourself), provided that spell is on the Sorcerer's spell list.
Make a Charisma check, adding your proficiency modifier as a bonus, against a DC equal to 15+the spell level. On a success, you cast the spell normally (as long as you respect all rules pertaining this spell, including material components if any). On a fail you lose your spell slot.

As you are straining your body to create effects you are not used to, you can use this feature only once before taking a short rest.
When you reach 10th level in this class, you can use this feature twice before taking a short rest.
When you reach 15th level, you can use this feature a number equal to your Charisma modifier before taking a short rest.
When you reach 20th level, you can use this feature an unlimited number of times until you roll a 1, at which time you cannot use it anymore before taking a short rest.
--------

How is that?
At level 5, it's a big gamble: your +3+4 (proficiency, Charisma) still puts failure at casting a level 1 spell about 50%.
At 10th level, with a +4+5 modifier, it's a much more reasonable bet: 70% chance to effectively cast a level 1 spell.
At 20th level, it should be an extremely easy task: with +11 modifer, you only have a 20% chance to fail.

Also, because I chose to write it as a Charisma check, not only would Bardic Inspiration from a friend or Jack of all Trades from dipping apply, but also Enhance Ability.

All in all, it should give an increasing boost in Sorcerer's versatility from level 7-8 onwards (depending on player's taste for gambling), while not being overpowered because...
- Unless investing just for that, you still have a fair chance to miss for a good part of your time so there is an opportunity cost.
- You still need to have witnessed the cast of a spell you want to use and it must be on Sorcerer's spell list.
- You have a limited amount of uses of that feature so you still have to consider how and when to use it wisely.
- I think that with that balance, spells of 6th level have a low enough chance to make the feature worth while still implying a strong risk (DC 21). And 9th level spells are pretty low chance (DC 24)...

Honestly though, I'm not sure at all how to properly balance this concept (live brainstorming here)...
A few ideas to discuss if people like it...
a) Put a ceiling (no spell higher than 5th level can be cast with this feature).
b) Higher start (17+spell level). so 6th level is DC 23, 9th is DC 26.
c) Steeper ramp (15+twice the spell level). start DC 17, 3rd level DC 21, 6th level DC 27, 9th level DC 33.
d) Lower start but much steeper ramp (10+three times the spell level): 1st level DC 13, 3d level DC 19, 6th level DC 28...
e) Keep as is but make it an "unnamed" check so that Enhance Ability doesn't apply.

I'd go probably for a), simply because that kind of limit is seen in PHB for other things, notably the plain Conversion feature from SP to slots and back so it's kinda coherent. And it keeps chances to succeed on a reasonable scale.

And for those who really don't like gambling, instead of using a writing that could allow Enhance Ability shenanigan, we could use the writing "make a check, to which you add your proficiency bonus and Charisma modifier", and instead allow player to add Sorcery points to the result, again using a "cost vs opportunity" logic (disclaimer: I see no problem with Sorcerer's balance as far as Sorcery points and spell slots go).

What do you all think?

[Arnie82]

Giving metamagic to all caster classes and removing the sorcerer just makes casters overshadow martials even more. This is not a viable solution.


To digress.
1 spell known / level + Charisma modifier in spells known would probably fix the class for most people. But it leads back to the pissing match between sorcerers and wizards wherein it becomes really hard to justify taking a wizard if sorcerers get this many spells known.

I believe the key lies in the idea that Sorcerers should feel tied to the magical world.

If Sorcerers could spontaneously add 1 spell to their spells known and can reset what that spell is after a short/long rest they'd probably feel perfect.

They wouldn't have the complete fluidity that wizards have through preparation, but would gain a flexible option to cast a spell they don't know because they're freaking magic.

Make it two different spells at level 5, 3 spells at 11 and 4 at 17 (essentially each tier of play).

So if you have 6 spells known at level 5 you now actually have a 7th and 8th spell that you can choose to cast but you decide what spell it is when you cast it. Once you do, you solidify the choice as your spontaneous 7th spell up until you rest and reset both.

In a bind and need featherfall? Well you can cast it with your "Improvised Magic" but now you are stuck with it until you short/long rest. It gives Sorcerers this cool "oh I can do that!" kind of feel but without making them supplant the wizard entirely. One is about foresight and planning the other is about flying by the seat of their pants.

It re-solidifies that sorcerers are meant to be these inherently magical casters and gives short rest worth to the class before level 20.

This may be one of the beat "fixes" I have seen for sorcerers!

[Zalabim]

While there's other reasons for the class being unsatisfying, and they're certainly well-covered here, the sorcerer falls down on an important part of class design right out of the gate. A class should have some unique mechanic at levels 1 and 2 to set it apart from other classes, then make a choice by level 3 that can set the character apart from other characters of the same class. Usually this is easy with spellcasters because they're choosing their spells, but the sorcerer knows barely any spells, is barely casting any spells per day at these levels, and has no unique spells on their list.

So looking at their Origins for completion? The draconic origin gets free AC and extra HP. That's not unique, and only a mechanic inasmuch as AC and HP are mechanics. They still usually get less AC and HP than other characters. The wild mage is usually discounted due to its mechanics, but at this level may be as little as "advantage on one roll per day" which is less engaging than "can summon a familiar" to be sure. Then at level 2 they get something called Font of Power but at this level is just one more 1st level spell per day. Their ability to cast 1st level spells is already not unique, and it's not really an interactive mechanic either. So we're 0 for 2. Finally at level 3 they get metamagic, which is supposed to be picked to decide what "kind" of sorcerer you're going to play, but has to pull double duty and by being the only indication that you're even playing a "sorcerer."

So it seems the solution is to improve font of power and their origin, though I'd be just as happy to forget this version and see something completely new written up to capture the fluff of innate magic better. I think they'd serve well as the basis for a single-classed multiclass character, with different options to combine what their non-magical skills are with whatever their magical origin is. Basically your "generic RPG protagonist" class, with magic forming the basis of their long-rest powers, and getting most of their combat ability from those long rest abilities still (to set them apart from normal fighters and rogues).

Now, I said that spellcasters are easy to give unique abilities too because they have spells, but they actually all have unique abilities other than spells. Bards give inspiration and song of rest, clerics get channel divinity and a domain power, druids get wild shape, warlocks get a patron ability and invocations on top of their unique pact magic, and wizards get better ritual access with a spellbook, and active arcane tradition abilities. The only class that gets as much non-unique and non-mechanics in their first two levels is Ranger, and that's a good indicator that the sorcerer is not going to be as satisfying as most classes.

Frankly, I see no reason why the game should have both a Warlock class and a Sorcerer class. They should be combined into one class, including fluff.
They were the same power source and role in 4E, for example, though the warlock focused on CC as it's controller-secondary and the sorcerer focused on area clearing instead. They certainly don't have any unique claim to any fluff.

A level 5 spell slot with a base 10d6 damage, i.e. average 35, that did only 25 is something that literally happens <5% of time.
I just wanted to say that it's possible to roll 5 1's in 10d6 and still deal 35 damage

I don't see the problem with just letting them have them all. Sorcery points will always be the limiting factor anyway.
The problem I see is that metamagic options are supposed to distinguish different sorcerers from each other, like the difference between a fiend tome warlock and a fiend chain warlock, or the difference between a devotion paladin and a vengeance paladin.

[Belltent]

You have to build one intelligently. It's not as easy to accidentally trip into an effective sorcerer as it is with other classes. I think this turns a lot of first timers away from it for good. A subsection of this issue is that metamagics and spell selection take an extra level of critical thinking to suss out.

Of the three official Origins, one is DM dependent (wild) and one is counterintuitive (storm {get closer to the enemy, mister d6 class!}) The other is a very set in stone theme (dragon.)

You'd think this could be alleviated by fresh takes on the origins, however:

The origin features come slow and (mostly) unremarkable. Some classes have their strengths built into the core, and some in the archetypes. Widening our gaze to all sorcerer options confirms they are the former, but it still sucks when the things that make you unique are kinda dull.

I think the biggest issue is that the metamagics are *potentially* really strong, so WotC was obligated to clip the wings everywhere else. Basically you need to really abuse those metamagics, and do so in one of a very few very particular ways. If not, your character has nothing to fall back on.

[Koren]

I find it amusing that the spell caster who gained their magic, and cast it, fairly spontaneously has to be very carefully planned to be effective. Just a random thought.

There's a lot of talk about fixes, about giving Sorcerers something to set them apart, or dissolving them entirely. It feels like something a few people are ignoring is that it looks like Metamagic is supposed to be the Sorcerers defining feature. And since Metamagic could potentially be incredibly powerful, they get harshly restricted in spells known and how often Metamagic could be used. They're held back for a feature that seems to be undervalued or underpowered as a whole.

I think earlier in this thread I suggested expanding Metamagic to be unlocked in tiers based on level, but perhaps as an additional option for flexibility at level 3 you are given another choice. To replace the option of what Metamagic to pick, you would pick Variety or Power. Variety would remain restricted in Sorcery points so that Metamagic is only used rarely, but in exchange they would learn more spells (add +Cha to spells known, or allow for more spells to be learned some other way). Maybe add features that promote turning points into spell slots, or something else to push casting. Power would maintain the restrictions on spells known, but add Sorcery points, or another way to regenerate them so that Metamagic becomes more frequently used. Perhaps restrict certain Metamagic options to this pathway, or do something to promote turning slots into points.

Basically, if we're trying to fix the class we shouldn't be trying to turn it into the Wizard But With Charisma, we should try to set it apart.

[alchahest]

having to build intelligently kind of flies in the face of the thematics of the class. The power is innate and at times uncontrollable - it shouldn't be a tightrope walk to have fun.

[Ravinsild]

Honestly I like the Sorcerer and I enjoy the "Specialized" niche, and especially blaster aspects. It's the kind of character concept I really like.

What frustrates me is the Warlock. I just...it just feels...I don't know weak somehow. I don't like the spells it learns. I preferred the 4e Warlock.

I miss "pact riders" on abilities, and control abilities such as:

Chains of Levistus

Hit: 2d6 + Constitution modifier cold damage. If the target moves before the end of your next turn, it takes 2d6 extra cold damage.

Infernal Pact: If the target moves before the end of your next turn, you also gain a +2 power bonus to your next attack roll against the target before the end of your next turn.

Tyranny of Flame

Hit: "3d6 + Constitution modifier fire damage, and the target can't stand up from prone (save ends)."
Infernal Pact: "The target also takes a −2 penalty to saving throws against this power."

Miss: "Half damage."[AP:75]

Warlocks in 4e had really flavorful and awesome spells, and I just don't really feel that in 5e. However I really enjoy Sorcerers and think they're pretty much exactly what I would want if I didn't want an all-around utility caster, but a very niche, specialized blaster with possibly a few other tools.

I'm happy with sorcerer :) Sad with Warlock :(

Edit: More spells to CHOOSE from I would not hate, as sometimes it can be frustrating trying to pull off a certain theme. Acid/Poison Caster just isn't doable. More spells to learn would be good, but I think it's fine to limit HOW MANY you can know as a specialist. Just my opinion though.

[Rebonack]

Just thought I would chime in to mention that it feels as though Sorcerer has something of the same problem that Warlock does. Their 'sub-class' isn't what they do, but rather what they are. Warlock alleviates this to a degree with their Pact Boon feature, which still gives players something of a hook to build their character around (am I the gish guy, the pet guy, or the full-caster guy?). Sorcerer often gets used as a multi-class option, since by multi-classing you get your 'hook' elsewhere and then use Sorcerer to augment it. It doesn't help that many folks find Wild Magic undesirable, leaving Dragon as the only real alternative.

Sorcerer needs to specialize to work really well, however they were given no real options to specialize with.

[MrStabby]

My first sorcerer I played as a blaster. It felt underwhelming and a bit limited.

It was frustrating as I couldn't have blasting spells AND versatile spells and the DM was a beginner so didn't get the kind of mileage out of the con save proficiency and metamagic that I could have done.

My second sorcerer was a total powerhouse. The sorcerer chasis is probably the most powerful in the game. I made better spell choices, better play decisions and had a much better time.

The sorcerer may need a fix but certainly not any kind of power-up. Any fix should be about making it more friendly to newer players.

Don't read too much into polls like this. Too often the question is interpreted as being "what class would you most likely to see improved", which is pretty much "what is your favourite class?". This tends to pick out mid to powerful options with clear strengths and weaknesses that brew arguments as people compare streangths of other classes to weaknesses.

Often people complain about sorcerer spell selections for example, thinking that for some reason a sorcerer should have more choice than a warlock or a paladin or a cleric. They pick an important weakness and compare it to the strength of another class.

[Citan]

My first sorcerer I played as a blaster. It felt underwhelming and a bit limited.

It was frustrating as I couldn't have blasting spells AND versatile spells and the DM was a beginner so didn't get the kind of mileage out of the con save proficiency and metamagic that I could have done.

My second sorcerer was a total powerhouse. The sorcerer chasis is probably the most powerful in the game. I made better spell choices, better play decisions and had a much better time.

The sorcerer may need a fix but certainly not any kind of power-up. Any fix should be about making it more friendly to newer players.

Don't read too much into polls like this. Too often the question is interpreted as being "what class would you most likely to see improved", which is pretty much "what is your favourite class?". This tends to pick out mid to powerful options with clear strengths and weaknesses that brew arguments as people compare streangths of other classes to weaknesses.

Often people complain about sorcerer spell selections for example, thinking that for some reason a sorcerer should have more choice than a warlock or a paladin or a cleric. They pick an important weakness and compare it to the strength of another class.
Pretty much this. After all, people complain that Sorcerer is hard to play effectively because they look at it from other caster's point of view, most of which having a greater number of spells available, but really thinking about how each class plays, you can see how many of them have some built-in complexity to overcome.
For example...
- Monk: easy to play, hard to master: the "not that good" AC of low levels makes any bad movement very risky. So player's smartness is required, even though nearly 0 choice has to be made in "building" beyond archetype choice. Same could be said about melee Rogues.
- Moon Druid: deceptively good at tanking (in fact pretty bad unless heavy investment) for quite a few levels, so you have to be careful as where and when to engage to avoid wasting good concentration spells because enemies ganged up on you and broke concentration early.
- Bard: a tad better number of spell known, but much less versatility in the kind of spells available barring Magic Secrets, and no Metamagic either, nore slot regain. When putting Magic Secrets aside, Bard is even more barren than Sorcerer as a spellcaster. And Magic Secret amounts to a handful of spells you get at high level. His other strong point is skills, which is totally unrelated to being a spellcaster.

On the flip side, could one really make a "bad" Sorcerer? I'm actually pretty sure that in the hands of any smart player, with proper base stats, a Sorcerer with spells and Metamagic chosen randomly (with only a handful of commonly reknown trap options such as Witch Bolt or True Strike) could still make a great asset to any 3 or 4-man party (in larger parties, it could arguably be lackluster depending on who are the others).

Also, seriously the so-called problem of "small number of spell known" may exist only in games without neither feats nor multiclassing.
Because in any other case, the cheap Ritual Caster is enough to make you shine even if there is one other caster with ritual casting (except if you take the same list as the other caster of course ^^). And any smart multiclassing brings you 5+ more cantrips and spells, in lists that provide spells that are all great with any Metamagic you may have chosen.

[Byke]

You have to build one intelligently. It's not as easy to accidentally trip into an effective sorcerer as it is with other classes. I think this turns a lot of first timers away from it for good. A subsection of this issue is that metamagics and spell selection take an extra level of critical thinking to suss out.

Of the three official Origins, one is DM dependent (wild) and one is counterintuitive (storm {get closer to the enemy, mister d6 class!}) The other is a very set in stone theme (dragon.)

You'd think this could be alleviated by fresh takes on the origins, however:

The origin features come slow and (mostly) unremarkable. Some classes have their strengths built into the core, and some in the archetypes. Widening our gaze to all sorcerer options confirms they are the former, but it still sucks when the things that make you unique are kinda dull.

I think the biggest issue is that the metamagics are *potentially* really strong, so WotC was obligated to clip the wings everywhere else. Basically you need to really abuse those metamagics, and do so in one of a very few very particular ways. If not, your character has nothing to fall back on.

I do agree that Sorcerer origins could use an overhaul as well. I really think they were on the right track with the Shadow Sorcerer. Str of the Grave, Eyes of the Dark, Casting Darkness and Hound with SP… IMO it’s the best designed Sorcerer sub-class to date. The rest of the Sorcerer UA materials are lacking compared to it. (Aside from the original FS.)

I also like TheUser’s suggestion about spontaneous/Improvised casting, it would be an elegant fix to making Sorcerer’s feel like inherently magical casters and address the holes in the “fluff”

As for Metamagic being too strong, when I compare it to the wizard subclass abilities, they are comparably just as strong as metamagic and scale better, I can’t see the justification of “clipping the classes wings” because of it.

If you could quicken two fireballs ...If you couldn’t lose concentration when you twinned a spell….If you could heighten a spell and the effected target auto failed the save…then yes I could see some justification that Metamagic was to strong and the class should be limited. But that is not the case.

As it stands now, it just feels like either WotC doesn’t know what to do with Sorcerers or they unjustifiably perceive that Sorcerers are too strong or they think that 15 spells known is a good thing. Whatever the case the class needs a rework like Rangers or they need to deal with the deficiencies.

[strangebloke]

Also, seriously the so-called problem of "small number of spell known" may exist only in games without neither feats nor multiclassing.
Because in any other case, the cheap Ritual Caster is enough to make you shine even if there is one other caster with ritual casting (except if you take the same list as the other caster of course ^^). And any smart multiclassing brings you 5+ more cantrips and spells, in lists that provide spells that are all great with any Metamagic you may have chosen.

You shouldn't have to multiclass to make a class work. You shouldn't need feats to make a class work. These are both optional rules. A class that needs other levels of another class to function in a reasonable manner is not a well-designed class.

Ritual Caster is in NO WAY a cheap option. It's a feat. Yes its a good option for a sorcerer, but

And yes, its very easy to mess up a sorcerer.

Let's say you want to play an acid dragon sorcerer. Let's say you're a noob and you think that you should pick all acid evocation spells.

You will suck.

[Koren]

And yes, its very easy to mess up a sorcerer.

Let's say you want to play an acid dragon sorcerer. Let's say you're a noob and you think that you should pick all acid evocation spells.

You will suck.

Not to bash on anyone who has, but I have never once seen anyone even mention Acid Dragons for anything in a positive light. Whether it be for Sorcerers or Dragonborn.

[Jerrykhor]

Let's say you want to play an acid dragon sorcerer. Let's say you're a noob and you think that you should pick all acid evocation spells.

You will suck.
That's assuming you can even find them. Seriously when I was a noob, I was so sure that the only acid spell is Acid Splash, and only because it starts with A and always appear on the top of any cantrip list.

[Ravinsild]

That's assuming you can even find them. Seriously when I was a noob, I was so sure that the only acid spell is Acid Splash, and only because it starts with A and always appear on the top of any cantrip list.

Technically Chromatic Orb can be acid too.

Edit: Wizards by far get the most acid spells, with Druids getting a fair amount as well. Sorcerers get...4. And two of them are only acid through tertiary means (Prismatic X). So specializing in Acid as any sort of caster seems to be a bad idea.

[Citan]

You shouldn't have to multiclass to make a class work. You shouldn't need feats to make a class work. These are both optional rules. A class that needs other levels of another class to function in a reasonable manner is not a well-designed class.

Ritual Caster is in NO WAY a cheap option. It's a feat. Yes its a good option for a sorcerer, but

And yes, its very easy to mess up a sorcerer.

Let's say you want to play an acid dragon sorcerer. Let's say you're a noob and you think that you should pick all acid evocation spells.

You will suck.
But that is precisely the thing. You DON'T need to multiclass or take a feat to "make it work". Exactly like a Champion Fighter doesnt need to take GWM or Sharpshooter (or Ritual Caster) to make it work.

I m just saying that for those arguably childishlike people that aren't satisfied with how a Sorcerer plays and consider is as a design flaw rather than just a dissonance between their personal taste and WoTC's concept that there are quick and clean ways to get many more spells to play with.

[Easy_Lee]

The sorcerer may need a fix but certainly not any kind of power-up. Any fix should be about making it more friendly to newer players.

I agree with this. In my opinion, the issue isn't the sorcerer's power. The two biggest issues I see are:

All sorcerer choices are set in stone.
The class doesn't have enough of an identity for new players to understand how to play it.

Fixing those things wouldn't require much work.

[Waazraath]

Eh, what's the thing with the acid dragon sorcerer? If you want to go for that focus, it isn't half bad. There's acid splash, chromatic orb, and vitrolic sphere. The latter is actually great for an elemental specialist. Since the "reroll ever 1" from the elemental adept feat is much stronger on a spell that works d4's than on one that uses bigger dice. Same goes for acid splash, a d6 cantrip that situational can have 2 targes.

Is it great? Nope. Is it terrrible? Nope. It can work, and can even be quite good. Pick at least one metamagic that works for evocation, pick other spells known for defense / utility.

(and just say to your DM that you want to trade scorching ray on your spell list for melf's acid arrow; that really shouldn't be an issue).

[GorogIrongut]

By the way, for those who really have a gripe with the number of spell known...

Here is a fix that I didn't have a chance to test myself but that seems very fitting with the class's fluff (inner magic, spontaneous).

-------
Intuitive Casting
When you reach 5th level, your awareness of inner magic has grown strong enough to allow you to experiment effects you did not specifically train into but that you witnessed first-hand.
Instead of casting one of your spell known, you can use a spell slot to instead try to cast one of the spells that you saw cast in front of you (whether you were affected or not yourself), provided that spell is on the Sorcerer's spell list.
Make a Charisma check, adding your proficiency modifier as a bonus, against a DC equal to 15+the spell level. On a success, you cast the spell normally (as long as you respect all rules pertaining this spell, including material components if any). On a fail you lose your spell slot.

As you are straining your body to create effects you are not used to, you can use this feature only once before taking a short rest.
When you reach 10th level in this class, you can use this feature twice before taking a short rest.
When you reach 15th level, you can use this feature a number equal to your Charisma modifier before taking a short rest.
When you reach 20th level, you can use this feature an unlimited number of times until you roll a 1, at which time you cannot use it anymore before taking a short rest.

What do you all think?
Honestly, I quite like the theme behind this idea. Possibly even more than the one put forward by TheUser. It would add a level of reactivity to the Sorceror that would help define the class (alongside metamagic). The Sorceror would then be almost a potential mirror in any combat he was in... He could mirror a fellow spellcaster. He could mirror a spell cast by the BBEG. Most importantly, this would be a unique skill. No one could claim that you were stealing something from the Wizard or the Bard or the Cleric. This is a good thing.

I highlighted in bold the ideas I don't like... And honestly my dislike is more to do with the theme of it. i.e. A Sorceror being the font of magic... in my opinion he wouldn't need to meet the components requirement. Nor do I feel that the spell would have to be on the Sorceror Spell List. If the Sorceror IS magic, then it should be able to react with all kinds of magic, and not just the forms of magic found on the Sorceror Spell List.

This latter shouldn't be overpowered, because there is no selection or planning involved. You can't suddenly say, that you're going to steal Spirit Guardian from the cleric. You're only able to reactively cast a spell that you've seen... and if no one casts any spells, this this ability has zero effect.

In exchange for the following, I would also add a cost in Sorcery Points and though you left it unmentioned, I'm sure you meant to say that in expending a spell level to cast the spell, it would have to be of an appropriate level for the spell being 'mirrored'/cast.

[Ravinsild]

I feel like the "class fantasy" of the Sorcerer is to be something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyoSLycPAPY as a fire specialist

or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IINwDWuQHlg as a frost specialist

and so forth with the various elements, at least for Draconic Origin/Tempest Sorcerer

From what I gather even though that's the intuitive and "intended" use of the sorcerer, it actually plays poorly as such in a real game?

[Theodoxus]

Re: Acid specialized draconic sorcerers... well, if you pick black dragon and play Hoard of the Dragon Queen and your DM is nice enough to let you get your mitts on the Black Dragon Mask, your pain will have paid off, with dividends... though that's probably true of anyone getting a Legendary magic item somewhere in the 5-8 level range...

[Easy_Lee]

I created a revised sorcerer based on comments in this thread, see my signature.

[Chugger]

Seriously, if you "specialize in Acid" you're going to have nothing but massive hallucinations! Sorry...couldn't resist (you all were being _so_ serious! But that's okay, really it is).

We can home-fix this all we want, and it's a good thing to talk about. I'd do the minimum level of "fix", because a competent person who knows what they're doing can make sorc and sorc multis rock. If the problem is that a newb picked really useless spells and is locked in, let them change more than what is allowed at their next level up - sort of hush hush under the table. One-time special deal. A lot of fixes don't have to be big stinkin massive sweeping rule-changes. It's often better to have it be "okay, don't tell anyone, but this one time I'll let you do x - does that make it okay for you?"

[strangebloke]

But that is precisely the thing. You DON'T need to multiclass or take a feat to "make it work". Exactly like a Champion Fighter doesnt need to take GWM or Sharpshooter (or Ritual Caster) to make it work.

I m just saying that for those arguably childishlike people that aren't satisfied with how a Sorcerer plays and consider is as a design flaw rather than just a dissonance between their personal taste and WoTC's concept that there are quick and clean ways to get many more spells to play with.
Over 50% of the survey respondents labeled the class as 'unsatisfying.' If you're going to argue that 50% of the survey respondents are childish, fine, but be aware that no one is going to take you seriously. If it was just my taste, I'd just figure something else out. Since a lot of people seems to be on the same page as me, yeah, I'll talk about the things I don't like.

It's not poorly designed to the extent that 3.5 classes were. It keeps up in power if played correctly. But it is awkward. The low spells known count and the difficulty in switching those spells out makes it very easy for newbies to screw up. The vast disparity in the strength of various options (twinned versus distant, fire dragon versus acid dragon, wild magic versus draconic, etc.) means that there are actually very few 'good' builds. And yes, an acid dragon sorcerer who takes distant and extended spell can be good, theoretically but that isn't because the class itself is well designed.

[SharkForce]

if sorcerers are supposed to be highly specialized, i'd rather see more in their subclasses to reflect that. the draconic sorcerer, for example... people go all crazy over their amazing blasting powers... uhhhh... what amazing blasting powers? their cantrips suck slightly less, their fireball hurts slightly more (if they're a fire draconic sorcerer)... but not really all that much more. i mean, it isn't like you look at fireball and think it's not even worth considering unless you're getting your attribute to bonus damage. it wasn't really a great idea to blast anything but large groups of mooks on a baseline sorcerer, and that remains true for a draconic sorcerer.

in contrast, the class that looks like you create specialists in various roles? that would be wizard. an illusionist can do amazing things with illusions. a necromancer can build an army of the undead that others can only dream of. and so on. even the more lackluster wizard subclasses do a good job of giving you things you can do with your subclass to feel like you're specialized in something; conjurer isn't great, but the moment they get their first subclass ability they get to conjure random things whenever they need, for example.

so what does sorcerer get to help them define their specialization? i mean, you'd think a wild magic sorcerer would presumably be encouraged to specialize in random effects, luck, probability, etc (they certainly had spells to do that in second edition)... and the subclass arguably does a sorta decent job at that, but... not really. as a wild magic sorcerer, is there any reason to pick spells that work like prismatic spray instead of one of the spells a standard sorcerer would have chosen with absolutely no subclass at all?

the only defining feature they have is metamagic, and frankly, even that tends to be limited in impact. i wouldn't tell a sorcerer to not choose fireball because they don't have empower. i wouldn't tell a sorcerer not to choose polymorph at level 7 because they don't have twin. i wouldn't tell a sorcerer not to pick banishment because they don't have heighten. i wouldn't tell a sorcerer not to pick sunbeam because they don't have quicken. i wouldn't tell a sorcerer not to pick suggestion because they don't have subtle. i wouldn't tell a sorcerer not to choose web because they don't have careful.

i mean, each of those metamagics makes those spells just that little bit better, but i could see any sorcerer with any or all of those spells, regardless of their metamagic selections.

[8wGremlin]

I miss the old Nahal's Reckless Dweomer that WILD MAGES used to get.

[Ritorix]

The low spells known count and the difficulty in switching those spells out makes it very easy for newbies to screw up. The vast disparity in the strength of various options (twinned versus distant, fire dragon versus acid dragon, wild magic versus draconic, etc.) means that there are actually very few 'good' builds.

Yeah this is how I see things. The typical impression is that sorcerers are an easy class to play, something for beginners that don't want all the hard work of playing a wizard. The truth is that wizards have it easy. Their design is generic enough to adapt to early mistakes made by their players. They can figure out what works, add more spells to their book and choose new options every day.

Sorcerers are, for the most part, stuck with their choices. If a newbie hits level 3 and takes Careful Spell expecting it to work with Web, guess what? They screwed up. It doesn't. They can swap Web out next level, and they're stuck with Careful permanently. That is brutal.

If you come into the class already knowing how metamagic works, what the errata did to it, and its interactions, you can really get some mileage out of the class. It requires a player to match spell selection to their metamagic choices, swapping spells out as they level in a methodical way. It can be worth it, metamagic has some neat tricks. Subtle in the right campaign and with the right DM can be crazy. Quicken is easy to abuse. Careful can, uh, well it can make wild mages less lethal during fireball surges. Metamagic even works on magic items that you cast a spell from, like scrolls or a wand of fireballs. Is a newbie going to know any of that? No chance.

[TheUser]

Yeah this is how I see things. The typical impression is that sorcerers are an easy class to play, something for beginners that don't want all the hard work of playing a wizard. The truth is that wizards have it easy. Their design is generic enough to adapt to early mistakes made by their players. They can figure out what works, add more spells to their book and choose new options every day.

Sorcerers are, for the most part, stuck with their choices.If a newbie hits level 3 and takes Careful Spell expecting it to work with Web, guess what? They screwed up. It doesn't. They can swap Web out next level, and they're stuck with Careful permanently. That is brutal.

If you come into the class already knowing how metamagic works, what the errata did to it, and its interactions, you can really get some mileage out of the class. It requires a player to match spell selection to their metamagic choices, swapping spells out as they level in a methodical way. It can be worth it, metamagic has some neat tricks. Subtle in the right campaign and with the right DM can be crazy. Quicken is easy to abuse. Careful can, uh, well it can make wild mages less lethal during fireball surges. Metamagic even works on magic items that you cast a spell from, like scrolls or a wand of fireballs. Is a newbie going to know any of that? No chance.


PHB Errata: Wild Magic Surge (p. 103). If a Wild Magic effect is a spell, it’s too wild to be affected by Metamagic.


*Snort* The Irony.

[90sMusic]

That's assuming you can even find them. Seriously when I was a noob, I was so sure that the only acid spell is Acid Splash, and only because it starts with A and always appear on the top of any cantrip list.

That's why my homebrew version of draconic sorcerer can spend a sorcery point to convert any damage type of a spell to the damage type associated with their draconic ancestry. It isn't infinite flexibility of changing anything into anything, but it does let you work within your chosen elemental theme a lot better since 5e is otherwise just "fire spells or suck" for the most part.

[Citan]

Over 50% of the survey respondents labeled the class as 'unsatisfying.' If you're going to argue that 50% of the survey respondents are childish, fine, but be aware that no one is going to take you seriously. If it was just my taste, I'd just figure something else out. Since a lot of people seems to be on the same page as me, yeah, I'll talk about the things I don't like.

It's not poorly designed to the extent that 3.5 classes were. It keeps up in power if played correctly. But it is awkward. The low spells known count and the difficulty in switching those spells out makes it very easy for newbies to screw up. The vast disparity in the strength of various options (twinned versus distant, fire dragon versus acid dragon, wild magic versus draconic, etc.) means that there are actually very few 'good' builds. And yes, an acid dragon sorcerer who takes distant and extended spell can be good, theoretically but that isn't because the class itself is well designed.
Well a source could be appreciated. Beyond that it s a known fact that minorities of people dissatisfied with something are much more vocal on the internet compared to people who are satisfied. So, really, considering the wide user base, it that survey didnt gather at least 10000 answers it cannot be considered reliable as an global opinion. : )

[Theodoxus]

What if, instead of modding the crap out of sorcerer to make it even more sorcerer-esque; something that is proving to be pretty difficult to do... we instead make the Wizard less like the sorcerer and remove the spontaneous casting aspect from it?

We all know, just by looking at the spell slot tables from 3.5 and 5 that full casters lost a lot of their overall power with spell slot reduction. It's a pretty big reason why the martial/magic divide got smaller. But it also made casters feel more homogenous. Which is part of the problem.

So, to rectify it, I propose making the Wizard a pure Vancian class once again.
It would work like this:

Preparing Wizard Spells
A wizard’s level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast. She can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward her daily limit.

Rest
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must complete a long rest.

Spell Preparation Time
After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. It takes 1 minute per spell level per spell to prepare her spell slots.

Spell Selection and Preparation
Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are cantrips, and the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one. This preparation requires a short rest.

Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day.A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.

Prepared Spell Retention
Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it

Death and Prepared Spell Retention
If a spellcaster dies, all prepared spells stored in his or her mind are wiped away. Potent magic (such as raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection) can recover the lost energy when it recovers the character.

One compensation to forcing the idea of pre-filling spell slots would be to increase the number of spell slots by 50% (round up, except when there's only 1 spell slot)



Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
6
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
6
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
6
5
3
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
6
5
4
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
6
5
5
1
-
-
-
-
-


8th
6
5
5
3
-
-
-
-
-


9th
6
5
5
5
1
-
-
-
-


10th
6
5
5
5
3
-
-
-
-


11th
6
5
5
5
3
1
-
-
-


12th
6
5
5
5
3
1
-
-
-


13th
6
5
5
5
3
1
1
-
-


14th
6
5
5
5
3
1
1
-
-


15th
6
5
5
5
3
1
1
1
-


16th
6
5
5
5
3
1
1
1
-


17th
6
5
5
5
3
1
1
1
1


18th
6
5
5
5
5
1
1
1
1


19th
6
5
5
5
5
3
1
1
1


20th
6
5
5
5
5
3
3
1
1

[strangebloke]

Well a source could be appreciated. Beyond that it s a known fact that minorities of people dissatisfied with something are much more vocal on the internet compared to people who are satisfied. So, really, considering the wide user base, it that survey didnt gather at least 10000 answers it cannot be considered reliable as an global opinion. : )

The survey is linked in the op.

Yeah it's not proof. The survey base is not strong enough to make definite statements about how everyone feels. But you're still calling the majority of enworld and giantitp postets who have weighed in on the topic 'childish.'

Bro, we're talking about how a make-believe sorcerer matches up to our expectations for make-believe sorcerers. Of course we're being childish. Do you think there's ever a case for complaining about a class?

Maybe you'd care to reply to the arguments presented?
1. It's noob unfriendly, in that there are lots of trap options and no easy way to get out of them.
2. There's a big mess of relevant errata, indicating that the base class was unclearly written.
3. The wild magic sorcerer needs DM intervention to use it's class features.
4. The subclasses are not synergistic.

[Ritorix]

PHB Errata: Wild Magic Surge (p. 103). If a Wild Magic effect is a spell, it’s too wild to be affected by Metamagic.


*Snort* The Irony.

LOL, well, I guess that just goes to prove my point. :smallbiggrin:

[MrStabby]

So there is a situation where some players find the class weak and others find it very strong. The former blame the class and the latter think that the former have not yet grasped the game's most complex and unforgiving class.

There are two issues. One is power. The other is flavour. Power... Well this is just a matter of getting to grips with spell selection and metamagic choice. If you think it is underpowered experiment with other choices. Not all are intuitive.

If the issue is flavour and you expect a supreme elemental blaster then this is an issue with the class not the player. To be honest I think the fix is not to try and make the sorcerer something that it isn't but instead to brew up a new class based on elemental blasting. Call it a sorcerer or call it something else.

[Easy_Lee]

So there is a situation where some players find the class weak and others find it very strong. The former blame the class and the latter think that the former have not yet grasped the game's most complex and unforgiving class.

There are two issues. One is power. The other is flavour. Power... Well this is just a matter of getting to grips with spell selection and metamagic choice. If you think it is underpowered experiment with other choices. Not all are intuitive.

If the issue is flavour and you expect a supreme elemental blaster then this is an issue with the class not the player. To be honest I think the fix is not to try and make the sorcerer something that it isn't but instead to brew up a new class based on elemental blasting. Call it a sorcerer or call it something else.

This is exactly why I think the key to making the Sorcerer more playable is additional spells known and being able to change spell / Metamagic choices. In my Homebrew, I suggested changing spells on a long rest and Metamagic on a short rest. Changing all spells on a level-up and Metamagic on a long rest would also work. The point is to keep people from getting stuck in a single niche for a long time, when there's a significant chance with new players that niche won't work.

[TheUser]

This is exactly why I think the key to making the Sorcerer more playable is additional spells known and being able to change spell / Metamagic choices. In my Homebrew, I suggested changing spells on a long rest and Metamagic on a short rest. Changing all spells on a level-up and Metamagic on a long rest would also work. The point is to keep people from getting stuck in a single niche for a long time, when there's a significant chance with new players that niche won't work.

I don't like this because it makes sorcerers and wizards even more analogous when the goal should be to create variety between the classes as much as possible.

Metamagic should be what defines your sorcerer compared to others and making them changeable leads to less variety between any two sorcerers.

This is why I like "Improvised Casting" wherein the sorcerer gets additional spells known that aren't chosen prior but instead can be selected when you first cast them and reset with a rest (short or long). It gives back the feeling of flexibility they once had in prior editions without infringing on the uniqueness of other classes.
So while all other casters got what the sorcerer had in their ability to manage slots flexibly, a sorcerer will have an array of pre-selected spells but also have a card to play by being able to spontaneously cast anything on the sorcerer list after they rest.
It also only amounts to 4 bonus spells known by level 17 (+1 at each tier) but virtually eliminates the two biggest grievances people have with the class: lack of spell versatility and nothing gained from a short rest until level 20.

PART 2: Why giving short rest recovery on sorcery points and additional metamagics is a bad idea
So firstly if you give more metamagic options they are all competing with eachother for the same resource and while it might give more options the addition of more just leads to a big deficit of sorcery points eventually.

If sorcery points are being recouperated with a short rest then Twinned and Quickened pull even further ahead since the only thing balancing them is their high cost.

[Citan]

I highlighted in bold the ideas I don't like... And honestly my dislike is more to do with the theme of it. i.e. A Sorceror being the font of magic... in my opinion he wouldn't need to meet the components requirement. Nor do I feel that the spell would have to be on the Sorceror Spell List. If the Sorceror IS magic, then it should be able to react with all kinds of magic, and not just the forms of magic found on the Sorceror Spell List.

Well, I kinda see your point about material components and I understand the fluff logic that may support it. I mainly kept the components for a balance reason (after all, just having a focus waves away the problem for many spells. Not common are those having components that cannot be replaced by the focus).

However, I'm strongly opposed to the fact that Sorceror could mimic any spell.
Precisely because...

1. Sorcerer's spelllist is a thing (mechanical reasons: the choice of spells allowed to Sorcerer is not random). Allowing any spell would be, for once, opening a can of worms in terms of balance (because of Metamagic), for second, tip-toing hard on Bard's feet (whose main originality in spellcasting is precisely to poach any spell), for third, creating an irreversible imbalance to the detriment of any other caster: because setting any kind of "time" or "environmental" limit to the mimic would be annoying to track for both player and GM, and setting none would make Sorcerer end with a "prepared/known spelllist" potentially superior to any other caster, Wizard included.

2. Magic sources are a thing:
- Druid take their power from some natural force,
- Warlocks get surges from their Patron,
- Clerics cast spells as the realization of their prayers by their God -or something like that-,
- Wizard produces spells as the result of a number of extremely complex manipulations of mind and matter -or something like that-,
- Bards creates spells by instilling some magic into soundwaves -or something like that-.

While a case *could* maybe be made about Sorcerers being able to grasp Bard's magic, I don't see that ever happening when talking about spells being confered from a superior power (especially the "divine" ones).

And, yes, obviously when trying to cast a spell you consume a slot of required level, whether you fail or succeed in the end. ;)


The survey is linked in the op.

Yeah it's not proof. The survey base is not strong enough to make definite statements about how everyone feels. But you're still calling the majority of enworld and giantitp postets who have weighed in on the topic 'childish.'

Bro, we're talking about how a make-believe sorcerer matches up to our expectations for make-believe sorcerers. Of course we're being childish. Do you think there's ever a case for complaining about a class?

Maybe you'd care to reply to the arguments presented?
1. It's noob unfriendly, in that there are lots of trap options and no easy way to get out of them.
2. There's a big mess of relevant errata, indicating that the base class was unclearly written.
3. The wild magic sorcerer needs DM intervention to use it's class features.
4. The subclasses are not synergistic.
Well... It's simple really.
I have no problem with people not being satisfied with a class.
I have a BIG problem with people complaining that they don't like a class because it's "badly designed".
And in spite of some of the things they do which I really don't like either (we are all human beings after all), excuse me for preferring giving my trust to something that have been worked over for at least a dozen of months if no more, by a team of people that have been creating rules and worlds since years, over a few hundred creators wannabe that, for the most of them, complain without having ever even tried to make something of their own.

You don't LIKE Sorcerer? No argue on that, you're perfectly in your right, to each his own taste.
- Intelligent reaction to that: thinking about a homebrew (which would be rather called otherwise than Sorcerer, both to respect the original idea and avoid useless discussions at the same time. IMO). A few do that in this thread and on this forum in general.
- Stupid reaction to that: bitching in arrogance about how Sorcerer is a design failure (most people sadly to that) because one didn't manage to have fun with it.

Beyond that, I don't see either why any class should be equally easy to understand, build and play (which, for reference, would still not be the case even if we removed Sorcerer entirely), but hey, I totally admit that's my personal taste.

As for quick answers to your points.
1.
- Monk is noob unfriendly, although you have basically no choice: high mobility and low starting AC means it's very easy to get killed, which is totally inefficient for the team, I think we all agree on that.
- Rogue is noob unfriendly, although you have basically no choice (except AT), exactly for the same reason as Monk. Also the Sneak and Hide mechanics are among the most hazy of all PHB, considering how many endless discussions spur out regularly here. Which by the way imply its efficiency is very dependent on DM.
- Beastmaster Ranger is noob unfriendly, although you have basically no choice, because it's very easy to lose your pet until it gets a decent health pool. And while the mechanic is good balance-wise, it feels weird.
- Warlock is noob unfriendly, arguably more than Sorcerer, because there are many different "sources" of building to combine altogether, but nobody frets that much over it.
- Wizard could be argued as noob unfriendly, because of the sheer choice of spells among which select a few ones. Of course this argument is void if the DM gives you many opportunities to learn spells beyond automatic ones. Then it's just a matter of choosing the right spell for the right situation, but indeed even people choosing randomly should still have a handful spells that can be useful. However, carefully choosing an optimized set of spells is completely beyond "noobs's grasp".

Oh, and? Sorcerer as any other caster can change his spell known, so even in the worst situation of a player that really knows nothing and has a ****ty party that gives absolutely no feedback or advice to him, once he realizes spell X is useless, he can change on next level. And if, by level 7, he still doesn't have at least a handful of spells that are useful for the party, then I'd argue that the player is just not fit to play any caster.

2. Well, I'm not sure of how much more errata was dedicated to Sorcerer rather than other classes, so... I'll take your word on that, although my gut feeling is that every class took quite a few shots (except maybe Clerics and Rogues?).

3. Well... Oh my god, I'm playing a role-playing game!!!
- Divination spells depends on DM to be worthwhile.
- Cleric's high level feature depends on DM to be worthwhile.
- Ranger's whole subset of tracking/adventuring feature needs DM to be worthwhile.
- Loot needs DM to be worthwhile.
- Many skills (knowledge ones such as Arcana or adventure ones such as Speak with Animals) depend on DM to be worthwhile.
So what if, contrarily to most of aforementioned features (which can be rendered even more useless if the DM isn't playing your hand), the trigger of it does not lie with you but with the DM?
Just speak with your DM beforehand during the session 0 and see a) whether he would agree to tailor the frequency to your taste (no? Then tough luck, he's not a fun one, grab something else: exactly like the Ranger), and b) what should be a decent middle-ground for everyone (so you cannot "guess in advance" but avoid being overwhelmed by the feature if you don't like it).
If you have some fears with a character concept and don't even take the time to discuss it with the DM beforehand, the problem lies with you.
If you see DM as an opponent, the problem lies (well, usually) with you.
If your DM really plays as an opponent, then you have a much bigger problem than having a feature underused.

4. How so?
Draconic gives a nice buff to AOE, along with much better positioning for spells in general (but even more so to AOE) thanks to free flight (no opinion on Draconic Presence though, never had a chance to play such a high level Sorcerer, and not experienced enough with all possible shenanigans to give any useful suggestion).
Wild Magic is extremely synergistic with any single-target spell, allowing to either stack further chances (paired with Heighetened) or instead act as a poorman's Heighetened and freeing another Metamagic instead.
Controlled Chaos cannot be considered synergistic per se since it's unpredictable, but having "advantage" on roll means chance of getting something really useless or bad is very low. Spell Bombardment synergizes with damaging (preferably AOE) spells.
As for Storm Sorcerer: it's by far the subclass that synergizes the most with the core feature (spellcasting), even considering other casters: you get free flight each cast, elemental AOE, reactions, flight, thematic spells...

[Easy_Lee]

I don't like this because it makes sorcerers and wizards even more analogous when the goal should be to create variety between the classes as much as possible.

Metamagic should be what defines your sorcerer compared to others and making them changeable leads to less variety between any two sorcerers.

This is why I like "Improvised Casting" wherein the sorcerer gets additional spells known that aren't chosen prior but instead can be selected when you first cast them and reset with a rest (short or long). It gives back the feeling of flexibility they once had in prior editions without infringing on the uniqueness of other classes.
So while all other casters got what the sorcerer had in their ability to manage slots flexibly, a sorcerer will have an array of pre-selected spells but also have a card to play by being able to spontaneously cast anything on the sorcerer list after they rest.
It also only amounts to 4 bonus spells known by level 17 (+1 at each tier) but virtually eliminates the two biggest grievances people have with the class: lack of spell versatility and nothing gained from a short rest until level 20.

PART 2: Why giving short rest recovery on sorcery points and additional metamagics is a bad idea
So firstly if you give more metamagic options they are all competing with eachother for the same resource and while it might give more options the addition of more just leads to a big deficit of sorcery points eventually.

If sorcery points are being recouperated with a short rest then Twinned and Quickened pull even further ahead since the only thing balancing them is their high cost.

Firstly, there already isn't much variety between any two sorcerers because of the perception that twin and quicken are the best. Nevermind that heighten can be used great effect against bosses, because twinned haste and quickened EB are all anyone cares about.

Secondly, if you give the sorcerer improvised casting, then sorcerer turns are going to get very long. The sorcerer player will deliberate over whether to use the feature, and which spell to use it with.

I know DMs can take measures to speed up player turns. That isn't the issue. The issue is that not all DMs want to rush their players. The additional time it will add to the game is something to consider when designing features.

[Asmotherion]

The thing that anoyes me the most is that, minus a Wish spell, there is no canon way for a Dragonic Origin Sorcerer to become a Dragon, something avalable to literally every other Arcane Spellcaster in the game. The Sorcerer is role-playing wise my second favorite class, and ofcource a good DM can work with his player to make the character more interesting, but limiting his spells known to 15, and giving him lackluster abilities makes the sorcerer a class saved for 2 kinds of players:

A) Either someone who knows exactly what he wants to make out of his Sorcerer, pre-planing his spells in advance or taking them role-playing wise, and not caring about their small selection or

B) Multiclassing his Sorcerer, for a good multiclass, loosing his spell progression to build something eventually powerful. One might do it for the AC bonus. Someone else for some basic metamagic, and then continiue as a Warlock or Paladin. Others might only Dip Warlock/Paladin and use the Sorcerer as their Base Class.

However, one thing is for sure. The way the class is designed, mechanics wise, one is tempted to multiclass out of it, or Dip into something else (Warlock and Paladin come to mind) to give it more power. And the reason for it, is because there is nothing to tempt a sorcerer not to multiclass/dip, other than spell progression.

RP wise, if someone wants to play a pure caster, the guy who really "knows magic", he usually plays a Wizard. One plays a Sorcerer for Metamagic, Bizare and Otherwordly abilities that come with it, and the feeling of being more "magical" and less "mortal". You were either born with magic, or got magic with a strage and very unconventional way... You may be the son of a dragon, the daughter of a fay queen or an urchin with no memories found by the church that, for some weird reason, caused thunderstorms everytime she was mad. The thing is, your character development should not be limited to that, it should only be part of it; this is were most players stop finding interest to their sorcerers. Think about Merlin, Matilda or Carrie. They could all be translated into D&D as Sorcerer Examples, and all of them had a unique and interesting character development, that included but did not only revolve around their unique abilities.

Most players I have seen playing a sorcerer, will either emphasise the magical aspect of their character too much, to the point that their role playing becomes limited to castings of prestidigitation/mage hand and minor illusion, or emphasise their origin too much, making random referances that make no sence, just in order to "play the class" (For example, drinking a whole beer, and then saying that "it's nothing, my dragon blood protects me from getting drunk" or whatever). It's only normal to get bored of playing this at some point, mostly because you don't give your DM any hooks to play with your character. What are his interests? What are his dislikes? What else is in his story?

I have literally had tones of fun role playing as a severed protocol droid's head in a d20 game because I knew my character. :)

[Citan]

The thing that anoyes me the most is that, minus a Wish spell, there is no canon way for a Dragonic Origin Sorcerer to become a Dragon, something avalable to literally every other Arcane Spellcaster in the game. The Sorcerer is role-playing wise my second favorite class, and ofcource a good DM can work with his player to make the character more interesting, but limiting his spells known to 15, and giving him lackluster abilities makes the sorcerer a class saved for 2 kinds of players:

A) Either someone who knows exactly what he wants to make out of his Sorcerer, pre-planing his spells in advance or taking them role-playing wise, and not caring about their small selection or

B) Multiclassing his Sorcerer, for a good multiclass, loosing his spell progression to build something eventually powerful. One might do it for the AC bonus. Someone else for some basic metamagic, and then continiue as a Warlock or Paladin. Others might only Dip Warlock/Paladin and use the Sorcerer as their Base Class.

However, one thing is for sure. The way the class is designed, mechanics wise, one is tempted to multiclass out of it, or Dip into something else (Warlock and Paladin come to mind) to give it more power. And the reason for it, is because there is nothing to tempt a sorcerer not to multiclass/dip, other than spell progression.
There is some serious truth in what you say but, honestly, as far as your last paragraph goes, same could be said for many other classes...
- Fighter? I often see people being disappointed of features gained between 3rd attack and 4th attack (capstone), and often preferring switch to another class and never look back.
- Ranger? Even truer sadly, except maybe a Beastmaster (who needs quite a few levels to make sure the companion lives anyways), I see very few people on this forum making plans with Ranger getting higher than 5/6, sometimes 11th level.
- Paladin? Even that class which brings great goodies every step, up to some of the best capstones among all classes, is often cut off past 6, 7 or 11th level.
- Rogue? I see few builds threads keeping Rogue strong past 11th level, except a few Arcane Tricksters that want to get Haste.

Honestly, the only (sub)classes really compelling the player to keep "pure" are imo...
- Moon Druid: because you get better forms every 3 levels and you end with the greatest capstone of all classes.
- Monk: because you rely on a resource that increases linearly with level, and you get some of the most powerful abilities of all classes in the last tier.
- Barbarian: because you get strong improvments to your core mechanic (Rage) every few levels, and you end with one of the top 5 capstones (unlimited Rage, big boost to damage and defense).

But, I'm pretty sure that in practice, the majority of people actually playing D&d stay single class, whatever that is. Not all players are optimizers (or at least experienced enough to get bored with single-class). That's why what we see on forums should not be taken as a reliable representation of the whole community, because we are a small subset of that community, sharing a specific mindset.

[90sMusic]

Removing spontaneous casting from wizards isn't the solution. That was done specifically because all the bookkeeping involved with wizards in previous editions was just too much hassle. I know a ton of people, myself included, that would only play spontaneous casters because it was just too much work hassling with setting each individual spellslot up in advance.

The reason it was done away with in 5e is for convenience, to keep the game moving at a faster pace. That has been the entire theme of 5e, making it more casual, approachable, and playable by new folks and why it rapidly became the most popular edition. The old systems with layers and layers and layers of rules and modifiers are still fun, but they're much slower paced and hardcore, you don't really want to start going back in that direction as it defeats the purpose of 5e. That is why everytime I see people posting homebrew rules that are a hundred pages long and just add complexity that isn't needed, I just kind of roll my eyes at it.

Some people played older editions too long and just can't let go of them.

[Theodoxus]

Perhaps you missed the part where we were told 5E would have lots of dials to tune the experience to what a specific table would desire.

WotC, in my estimation, has failed to deliver that. Homebrew remedies like Kryx's helps with that desire. Would I want to play every game under Kryx's rules? Probably not. But if I want a more balanced system that cleaves close to 5E base ruleset, I can use his rules fairly easily.

Seeing hundreds of pages of homebrew is probably exactly the reason WotC was unable to keep their intention; too many iterations in different directions. But pick the flavor you want - from a super simple classless system to the extremely robust rebuild of every Pathfinder class ever - and a myriad of things in between.

But I'm not overly fond of the 'badwrongfun' implied by "just play 5E as is, and play older systems if you want 'x' factor instead."

[MrStabby]

This is exactly why I think the key to making the Sorcerer more playable is additional spells known and being able to change spell / Metamagic choices. In my Homebrew, I suggested changing spells on a long rest and Metamagic on a short rest. Changing all spells on a level-up and Metamagic on a long rest would also work. The point is to keep people from getting stuck in a single niche for a long time, when there's a significant chance with new players that niche won't work.

If that's your issue then you don't need to "fix" much. Just allow swapping out of two spells known per level up.

To be fair, I do sometimes allow sorcerers to draw from an expanded pool of spells, not more known, just a wider pool. This is always tied to the character concept and cannot replace a weak spell with a powerful one.

[Deathtongue]

The thing that anoyes me the most is that, minus a Wish spell, there is no canon way for a Dragonic Origin Sorcerer to become a Dragon, something avalable to literally every other Arcane Spellcaster in the game.I think that's more of an issue of the power of 9th-level spells more than a failing of class design.

That said, I do feel you on that. 5E D&D has a vision of the game where you, the PC, pretty much do the same things you did at level 15 that you did at level 5. It's not as completely ruthless about this vision as 4E D&D was, as there are plenty (always in the hands of full-casters, of course) ways to genuinely shift the paradigm. But it's pretty clear from looking at the class features -- not just of sorcerers, but from other characters like the cleric -- that you were supposed to be okay with your 'dragon' character having some elemental affinities, a slightly tougher body, and wings.

[FabulousFizban]

wizards have more spells
bards have more versatility
warlocks have more damage
clerics have more heals
druids have more EVERYTHING

what is left for the sorcerer to do?

[Kane0]

Give em spell points, merge the two SP pools.

They get 0 new things, both flavor and mechanics are improved and they get to enjoy their own niche.

[8wGremlin]

Elemental mastery:
For 2sp you can change the listed element damage type of a spell or cantrip to another element damage type.

Acid, Cold, Fire, Force, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Radiant, or Thunder

Too powerful a metamagic?

[Saiga]

Considering Lore Wizard got the same feature for free, I don't think that's too powerful at all.

[Kryx]

Kryx's rules... I can use his rules fairly easily.
Great to hear that you can use them fairly easily. It's difficult to manage the whole structure so hearing feedback about its usability is helpful.


I'm not overly fond of the 'badwrongfun' implied by "just play 5E as is, and play older systems if you want 'x' factor instead."
Since when has a D&D community every accepted others playing differently than they? Pffft... Fully agreed though. :)

[Kane0]

Elemental mastery:
For 1sp you can change the damage type of a spell listed below to another listed type.

Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Thunder


Would be what I'd do.

[Safety Sword]

Since when has a D&D community every accepted others playing differently than they? Pffft... Fully agreed though. :)

Ha!

My way or the Sword Coast Trade Way seems to be the general consensus.

[ZorroGames]

Ha!

My way or the Sword Coast Trade Way seems to be the general consensus.

It does cut both ways but one side refuses to accept that as true.

[Safety Sword]

It does cut both ways but one side refuses to accept that as true.

That'd be the blunt side I guess?

[Kryx]

Elemental mastery:
For 1sp you can change the damage type of a spell listed below to another listed type.

Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Thunder

Would be what I'd do.
In AL or otherwise RAW games it'd be totally fine.

Though this issue is simply an issue of spell damage type balance - tons of fire and very little of others like acid. In home games I'd recommend adding acid and other damage type spells that are missing from the Sorcerer's list. Once you have all 5e elemental options on there start porting elemental spells from old editions - there are plenty to work with that provide great flavor.

[samcifer]

I was very sad to see many good attack spells missing from the sorc list. They get a very odd assortment of spells. I would think that since their magic awakes forcefully, they'd focus more on damaging spells, but they don't, which is very strange.

[Byke]

Firstly, there already isn't much variety between any two sorcerers because of the perception that twin and quicken are the best. Nevermind that heighten can be used great effect against bosses, because twinned haste and quickened EB are all anyone cares about.



One of the reasons why Shadow Sorcerer is such a well designed subclass. They give you a persistent Heighten at 6th level for only 3 SP. That will effect all of your spells as long as the hound stays alive.

[AtraUnam]

Personally I find sorcerers pretty decent, you just need to play them creatively. I do however feel like they need something similiar to warlock patrons, each origin should have an additional list of spells from which they can chose when they gain new spells; for instance I just started playing an ocean sorcerer with a new group and in the longrun I'm going to be asking my DM for access to certain druid spells once I start getting level 7+ slots because what kind of ocean sorcerer doesn't have access to tsunami or change weather?

[Easy_Lee]

Personally I find sorcerers pretty decent, you just need to play them creatively. I do however feel like they need something similiar to warlock patrons, each origin should have an additional list of spells from which they can chose when they gain new spells; for instance I just started playing an ocean sorcerer with a new group and in the longrun I'm going to be asking my DM for access to certain druid spells once I start getting level 7+ slots because what kind of ocean sorcerer doesn't have access to tsunami or change weather?

That may be the right niche for Sorcerers. Make them a class based on the natural magic of particular things: dragons, ocean, stone, shadow, etc. This would differentiate them from Wizards who study arcane secrets, but also from Druids who are part of all of nature.

[ZorroGames]

That may be the right niche for Sorcerers. Make them a class based on the natural magic of particular things: dragons, ocean, stone, shadow, etc. This would differentiate them from Wizards who study arcane secrets, but also from Druids who are part of all of nature.

Well that would make it more than a flavor dip for another class (my current evaluation of the Sorcerer class.)

Wonder if WOTC would do that via subclasses.

[Kryx]

That may be the right niche for Sorcerers. Make them a class based on the natural magic of particular things: dragons, ocean, stone, shadow, etc. This would differentiate them from Wizards who study arcane secrets, but also from Druids who are part of all of nature.
That's exactly what the Sorcerer's Origin does. That's why I focus my Sorcerer on the Origin and emphasize it as a large role in the class.

[Easy_Lee]

That's exactly what the Sorcerer's Origin does. That's why I focus my Sorcerer on the Origin and emphasize it as a large role in the class.

I did the same, having origin grant additional spells known same as a druid circle. But Regardless of anyone's homebrew, the fact remains that WotC didn't focus on that origin much mechanically. Neither PHB origin impacts spell list or Metamagic, the two staples of the class as written. As a result, players see Sorcerers as the Metamagic class, not the magical origin class.

[Kryx]

I did the same, having origin grant additional spells known same as a druid circle. But Regardless of anyone's homebrew, the fact remains that WotC didn't focus on that origin much mechanically. Neither PHB origin impacts spell list or Metamagic, the two staples of the class as written. As a result, players see Sorcerers as the Metamagic class, not the magical origin class.
Agreed, though we're talking about fixes at this point in the thread. So I'm recommending the fix I chose to use. :)

[ZorroGames]

I find the frustration in that any viable fix suggested so far pretty much stops AL play cold and AL is King here unless you get an invite to a private campaign.

[Kryx]

I find the frustration in that any viable fix suggested so far pretty much stops AL play cold and AL is King here unless you get an invite to a private campaign.
Then you have to live with RAW.

You always have the option of becoming a GM or playing on Roll20/Fantasy Grounds.

[ZorroGames]

Then you have to live with RAW.

You always have the option of becoming a GM or playing on Roll20/Fantasy Grounds.

No, I decided early on to avoid the whole DM route. Just, no. :smallbiggrin:

I just want to have fun, not work. :smallsmile:

I can live with "Sorcerer as dip" since I almost exclusively play fighters or clerics as base class. :smallwink:

[Safety Sword]

No, I decided early on to avoid the whole DM route. Just, no. :smallbiggrin:

I just want to have fun, not work. :smallsmile:

I can live with "Sorcerer as dip" since I almost exclusively play fighters or clerics as base class. :smallwink:

Aren't you lucky that some people find DMing fun then?

[samcifer]

The more I look at the favored soul, the more I like the idea. I can get fire spells as well as healing spells. Esp. useful as our cleric seems to have baled on the group.

[8wGremlin]

Time to revamp my shamanic soul

[SharkForce]

I did the same, having origin grant additional spells known same as a druid circle. But Regardless of anyone's homebrew, the fact remains that WotC didn't focus on that origin much mechanically. Neither PHB origin impacts spell list or Metamagic, the two staples of the class as written. As a result, players see Sorcerers as the Metamagic class, not the magical origin class.

of course they didn't focus on origins. there's no room left. all the power is in the metamagic basket, there's no room left to put a lot of power into origins. the other part of the reason why kryx's sorcerer rework focuses on origins is that the power of metamagic was completely removed from his version of the sorcerer and put into feats, which means there's actually some room in the class to do something cool with origins.

[Easy_Lee]

of course they didn't focus on origins. there's no room left. all the power is in the metamagic basket, there's no room left to put a lot of power into origins. the other part of the reason why kryx's sorcerer rework focuses on origins is that the power of metamagic was completely removed from his version of the sorcerer and put into feats, which means there's actually some room in the class to do something cool with origins.

Expanded spell lists, similar to a cleric or land druid, add versatility, not power. The sorcerer isn't doing any more with his action than before.

[ZorroGames]

Aren't you lucky that some people find DMing fun then?

Quite hapily, yes. Did that for 22 people (two parties) for a year in Seattle in the 1980s. Priorities are different now.

[Safety Sword]

Quite hapily, yes. Did that for 22 people (two parties) for a year in Seattle in the 1980s. Priorities are different now.

If you had groups of 10 PCs playing I can see why you dislike being the DM...

[ZorroGames]

If you had groups of 10 PCs playing I can see why you dislike being the DM...

No, a group of 3 (my girlfriend, Reserve Buddy and his wife) and one massive group. And most of the 3 generation large group showed up regularly.
:smallconfused:
I need a "Shudder" icon.

[SharkForce]

Expanded spell lists, similar to a cleric or land druid, add versatility, not power. The sorcerer isn't doing any more with his action than before.

you cannot add versatility without adding power; versatility is a form of power.

[Easy_Lee]

you cannot add versatility without adding power; versatility is a form of power.

In that case, there's no competition between the wizard and the sorcerer. Sorcerers have 100 fewer spells on their list, an even smaller number of spells known compared to a wizard, and no ritual casting. Metamagic isn't worth that much, particularly since you can only use it once or twice per day for the first tier of play.

[SharkForce]

In that case, there's no competition between the wizard and the sorcerer. Sorcerers have 100 fewer spells on their list, an even smaller number of spells known compared to a wizard, and no ritual casting. Metamagic isn't worth that much, particularly since you can only use it once or twice per day for the first tier of play.

pretty much. why do you think the tier lists typically consider wizards to sometimes be highest tier or close to it, while sorcerers are usually considered a step below?

i mean, it's not so far down that a sorcerer can't contribute (no class or subclass is that far down), but it's definitely not as highly rated in power just as it isn't as highly rated in satisfaction.

but metamagic used to its absolute fullest potential is very strong, and you probably shouldn't be balancing everything to the highest strength class anyways. which is why it's so hard to add much to sorcerer to give it the satisfying feeling that it needs. it's also why most people who like the sorcerer seem to mention UA, in my experience... the UA subclasses probably don't break sorcerer by making it too strong, but they are definitely stronger than any of the published classes so far.

[samcifer]

pretty much. why do you think the tier lists typically consider wizards to sometimes be highest tier or close to it, while sorcerers are usually considered a step below?

i mean, it's not so far down that a sorcerer can't contribute (no class or subclass is that far down), but it's definitely not as highly rated in power just as it isn't as highly rated in satisfaction.

but metamagic used to its absolute fullest potential is very strong, and you probably shouldn't be balancing everything to the highest strength class anyways. which is why it's so hard to add much to sorcerer to give it the satisfying feeling that it needs. it's also why most people who like the sorcerer seem to mention UA, in my experience... the UA subclasses probably don't break sorcerer by making it too strong, but they are definitely stronger than any of the published classes so far.

I don't really get the point of ritual casting. Can someone explain to me how/why it's useful?

[Naanomi]

I don't really get the point of ritual casting. Can someone explain to me how/why it's useful?
Get access to a potentially huge list of spells without having to prepare them; nearly whenever you need access to them, without spending Spell slots to do so?

[Easy_Lee]

I don't really get the point of ritual casting. Can someone explain to me how/why it's useful?

Spells without spending a spell slot...I don't know how to be more clear than that. Detect Magic, Water Walk, there are a lot of really useful options in there.

[Kane0]

I'm not familiar with AL sorry, do they allow DMG variant rules?

If so, spell point sorcerer addresses some issues for that guy looking for an AL valid solution.

[SharkForce]

I'm not familiar with AL sorry, do they allow DMG variant rules?

If so, spell point sorcerer addresses some issues for that guy looking for an AL valid solution.

they allow some variant rules (including some you might not think of as variant rules, like variant humans and feats).

the spell point variant rule is not one of them.

[TheUser]

pretty much. why do you think the tier lists typically consider wizards to sometimes be highest tier or close to it, while sorcerers are usually considered a step below?

i mean, it's not so far down that a sorcerer can't contribute (no class or subclass is that far down), but it's definitely not as highly rated in power just as it isn't as highly rated in satisfaction.

More to do with the fact that the sorcerer as a class is very unforgiving for new players by being unable to cycle out spells easily. The class requires its players to have a lot of nuance, which is very against the design philosophy of 5e; Subtle spell for instance, doesn't immediately jump out of the page for beginners but is incredible. Then there's this interesting catch 22 where the vocal parts of the community think quicken and twinned are the only good metamagics and then bemoan not getting sorcery points back on short rests because they are always running out....
These are two of the most expensive metamagics available.... did you ever think your running out of sorcery points is what makes them balanced?

Tier lists can be useful, but more often than not are bogged down by their creators because they appeal to a lowest common denominator of autists who can't see anything but numbers and hypothetical white rooms, instead of things like... I dunno... what removing verbal and somatic components from spells can do, or being able to bench press a small car (4800lbs) as a level 8 enlarged goliath bear-barian (enhance ability brings it up to almost 10k lbs)..

If people spent 2 seconds immersing themselves into the adventure and put themselves into the shoes of a warrior that can naturally lift 2400lbs....all of a sudden you solve problems very differently than everyone else.

Even when they do focus on numbers they somehow miss why things like empower might actually be amazing. They look at things like averages instead of the power of consistency in a game of chance. Do you know how many people I've heard knock empower on these forums? And completely baseless assertions at that. "Empower's not that good" should be a ****ing meme (https://i.imgflip.com/1uwqbe.jpg) at this rate....

Somehow adding 10 damage to 2 attacks in a round with GWM and Sharpshooter is a point of contention across multiple forums. Threads say that it's OP or keeps martials competitive, but when you can add 5-10 damage on AoE spells with 1 sorcery point it's suddenly just "ok" or "not that good." I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. (https://i.imgflip.com/1uwrc7.jpg)


Metamagic is the sorcerers greatest strength and their greatest weakness. It's bonkers good when you pick your spells appropriately and design a motif and strategy to work around, which in turn requires their power be reigned in on spells known and to have their spell list restricted to keep them from overshadowing everyone else. This means the average player might completely miss the point of that design premise and wonder why their sorcerer isn't playing like their wizard, or why they might have to be careful when picking their spells.

[Kryx]

In that case, there's no competition between the wizard and the sorcerer. Sorcerers have 100 fewer spells on their list, an even smaller number of spells known compared to a wizard, and no ritual casting. Metamagic isn't worth that much, particularly since you can only use it once or twice per day for the first tier of play.
Exactly this. I agree that versatility is power, and most people miss the massive power advantage the Wizard has in so many categories.

When WoTC decided to publish the Storm Sorcerer without the bonus spells known that was the straw that broke the camel's back and made me abandon any hope that they'd provide a proper fix for the class.

[Kane0]

-Snip-

Never lose your sense of perspective mate, it will always serve you well.

[Jerrykhor]

Even when they do focus on numbers they somehow miss why things like empower might actually be amazing. They look at things like averages instead of the power of consistency in a game of chance. Do you know how many people I've heard knock empower on these forums? And completely baseless assertions at that. "Empower's not that good" should be a ****ing meme (https://i.imgflip.com/1uwqbe.jpg) at this rate....


I thought Empower was great too, but in theory its only good at higher levels with Fireball/Lightning bolt. When I first got it at level 3, and at level 4, the damaging spells just dont have enough dice to warrant using Empower. Most of them only have 3-4 damage dice, and out of those, most likely only 1 would be low enough to use it. But to spend 1 point just for a tiny increase? Probably not worth it. The only time i used it was when my Chromatic Orb crit. And yes, my LMoP campaign ended at lvl4.

So yes, the poor design of Sorcerer comes with how Metamagic interact with spells. Most people would advise that you shouldnt pick the Metamagic with high costs at low levels, but you can't swap them out at high levels when you have more Sorc Points anyway. So do you pick the good stuff like Heightened, suck at low levels and wait it out? Or pick Empower/Subtle to spam more?

Metamagic is good and powerful, but you shouldn't balance it by making it annoying to use (or can't use at all due to lack of sorc points). And they definitely shouldn't tie Metamagic with Font of Magic with certain Subclass abilities to share the same resources. Every other class get to enjoy their fun buttons and features, and use them separately without feeling like being cheated. So why make the Sorcerer so useless?

[TheUser]

I thought Empower was great too, but in theory its only good at higher levels with Fireball/Lightning bolt. When I first got it at level 3, and at level 4, the damaging spells just dont have enough dice to warrant using Empower. Most of them only have 3-4 damage dice, and out of those, most likely only 1 would be low enough to use it. But to spend 1 point just for a tiny increase? Probably not worth it. The only time i used it was when my Chromatic Orb crit. And yes, my LMoP campaign ended at lvl4.

So yes, the poor design of Sorcerer comes with how Metamagic interact with spells. Most people would advise that you shouldnt pick the Metamagic with high costs at low levels, but you can't swap them out at high levels when you have more Sorc Points anyway. So do you pick the good stuff like Heightened, suck at low levels and wait it out? Or pick Empower/Subtle to spam more?

Metamagic is good and powerful, but you shouldn't balance it by making it annoying to use (or can't use at all due to lack of sorc points). And they definitely shouldn't tie Metamagic with Font of Magic with certain Subclass abilities to share the same resources. Every other class get to enjoy their fun buttons and features, and use them separately without feeling like being cheated. So why make the Sorcerer so useless?

I dunno... My last AL at level 3 had empower turn a 4 damage burnjng hands into an 11 damage burning hands killing 4 goblins (1,1,2 became 4,2,5) While my odds of flubbing the roll again were the same as before the average damage increase of re-rolling a 1 is +2.5 damage on a d6. This might represent a "niche" example in your mind but the number of times I see people rolling fistfuls of dice on spells with multiple or bountiful 1's has me thinking "I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that."

Suffice it to say, it's much easier to roll snake eyes with only 2 dice. Sure fireball and lightning bolt present much greater opportunjties for empower to flourish, but a low damage AoE spell is mediated less by having less dice rolled.

Metamagic are hardly designed poorly. Maybe good metamagic selection just doesn't come implicitly to people.

People taking Quicken before level 10 and using it to shell out twinned cantrips with their action just don't have the innate cost benefit analytic skills to see that until level 11 quickening to get more cantrips is 30% more effective than levels 6-10 (if it's a damage cantrip boosted by charisma) and twice as effective level 5. At levels 1-4 it's almost four times less efficient to quicken in order to cantrip. [Quickmath 3d10+Cha mod =21.5 2d10+Cha mod= 16 and 1d10 averages 5.5]. The problem in mind isn't the design, it's the player not having strong math and statistics fundamentals to understand when is ideal to take certain metamagics.

Also what is your proposed design alternative? Make them all free? It's all well and good to criticize something but without healthy alternatives it's not worth much.

[EvilAnagram]

So yes, the poor design of Sorcerer comes with how Metamagic interact with spells. Most people would advise that you shouldnt pick the Metamagic with high costs at low levels, but you can't swap them out at high levels when you have more Sorc Points anyway. So do you pick the good stuff like Heightened, suck at low levels and wait it out? Or pick Empower/Subtle to spam more?
...what? This reads like a Lewis Carroll poem. You pick cheaper, but effective metamagic at low level and grab expensive metamagic at later levels. How is that difficult to understand? That's as simple as it gets.


Metamagic is good and powerful, but you shouldn't balance it by making it annoying to use (or can't use at all due to lack of sorc points). And they definitely shouldn't tie Metamagic with Font of Magic with certain Subclass abilities to share the same resources. Every other class get to enjoy their fun buttons and features, and use them separately without feeling like being cheated. So why make the Sorcerer so useless?

You make no sense at all here. Metamagic is good and powerful, but Sorcerers are useless? The power of metamagic is precisely what makes them useful. The fact that you have to husband your resources doesn't change that any more than it makes Barbarians or Battle Masters useless.

[Contrast]

Even when they do focus on numbers they somehow miss why things like empower might actually be amazing. They look at things like averages instead of the power of consistency in a game of chance. Do you know how many people I've heard knock empower on these forums? And completely baseless assertions at that. "Empower's not that good" should be a ****ing meme (https://i.imgflip.com/1uwqbe.jpg) at this rate....

Somehow adding 10 damage to 2 attacks in a round with GWM and Sharpshooter is a point of contention across multiple forums. Threads say that it's OP or keeps martials competitive, but when you can add 5-10 damage on AoE spells with 1 sorcery point it's suddenly just "ok" or "not that good." I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. (https://i.imgflip.com/1uwrc7.jpg)

I agree with most of what you say (and agree taking only high cost metamagics at low level is an easy mistake to make that would make the class feel very unsatisfying). Heighten encourages you towards high variance spells which is particularly risky when you have so few spells slots and I personally think quicken is overrated generally.

However, Empower is not in the same league as GWM and Sharpshooter. Some of the reasons GWM and Sharpshooter are so good is that they are predictable and you can expect to make use of them almost every turn in some way. Empower does not tick those boxes.

I'm not saying empower is bad. If you're taking damage spells it's a decent pick. But GWM/Sharpshooter it ain't.


Edit -


I thought Empower was great too, but in theory its only good at higher levels with Fireball/Lightning bolt. When I first got it at level 3, and at level 4, the damaging spells just dont have enough dice to warrant using Empower. Most of them only have 3-4 damage dice, and out of those, most likely only 1 would be low enough to use it. But to spend 1 point just for a tiny increase? Probably not worth it. The only time i used it was when my Chromatic Orb crit. And yes, my LMoP campaign ended at lvl4.

FYI if a dice rolls below average you should reroll it so even with only 3-4 you should still be finding opportunities - though obviously your expected gain is reduced the fewer dice roll really low. Of course, yeah if you roll well empower doesn't get used, much like a barbarian who's rolling well may decide he's better off not using reckless attack - doesn't mean the ability isn't good though :smalltongue:

In fairness in the situation you've described (you played 2 levels with the ability with very limited spell slots per day) I don't think any metamagic would particularly have had a chance to shine.

[Zalabim]

I dunno... My last AL at level 3 had empower turn a 4 damage burnjng hands into an 11 damage burning hands killing 4 goblins (1,1,2 became 4,2,5) While my odds of flubbing the roll again were the same as before the average damage increase of re-rolling a 1 is +2.5 damage on a d6. This might represent a "niche" example in your mind but the number of times I see people rolling fistfuls of dice on spells with multiple or bountiful 1's has me thinking "I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that."

Suffice it to say, it's much easier to roll snake eyes with only 2 dice. Sure fireball and lightning bolt present much greater opportunjties for empower to flourish, but a low damage AoE spell is mediated less by having less dice rolled.
Empower is great even at level 3, even with cantrips. Re-rolling a 1 on a fire bolt adds an average of 4.5 damage. For half the cost of a quicken, and you don't have to roll to hit again, and you can still combine it with another metamagic like twin. If you hit both targets, but roll badly on damage? Empower is great. If you don't roll badly on damage? You still have your other metamagic and more spells than sorcery points to use them, especially if that's Twin Spell.


Metamagic are hardly designed poorly. Maybe good metamagic selection just doesn't come implicitly to people.

People taking Quicken before level 10 and using it to shell out twinned cantrips with their action just don't have the innate cost benefit analytic skills to see that until level 11 quickening to get more cantrips is 30% more effective than levels 6-10 (if it's a damage cantrip boosted by charisma) and twice as effective level 5. At levels 1-4 it's almost four times less efficient to quicken in order to cantrip. [Quickmath 3d10+Cha mod =21.5 2d10+Cha mod= 16 and 1d10 averages 5.5]. The problem in mind isn't the design, it's the player not having strong math and statistics fundamentals to understand when is ideal to take certain metamagics.
Well, cost-benefit analysis with strong math background and an understanding of statistics fundamentals isn't really the fantasy the sorcerer represents. That's not really metamagic's "fault" but it is likely the cause for the poor showing in class satisfaction polls. My impression is that the 5E sorcerer is more likely to be enjoyed by the kind of person who played a wizard in 3E, while someone who played a sorcerer in 3E should stick to all sorts of people should enjoy playing a wizard in 5E.


Also what is your proposed design alternative? Make them all free? It's all well and good to criticize something but without healthy alternatives it's not worth much.
Sometimes the first step is admitting there is a problem. Anyway, the design alternative is probably to untie the origin abilities from sorcery point costs. Font of Magic and Metamagic runs together and then Sorcerous Origin and its abilities have separate costs and limits, and they both feed through the sorcerer's spellcasting as the unifying mechanic.

[samcifer]

Metamagic are hardly designed poorly. Maybe good metamagic selection just doesn't come implicitly to people.

People taking Quicken before level 10 and using it to shell out twinned cantrips with their action just don't have the innate cost benefit analytic skills to see that until level 11 quickening to get more cantrips is 30% more effective than levels 6-10 (if it's a damage cantrip boosted by charisma) and twice as effective level 5. At levels 1-4 it's almost four times less efficient to quicken in order to cantrip. [Quickmath 3d10+Cha mod =21.5 2d10+Cha mod= 16 and 1d10 averages 5.5]. The problem in mind isn't the design, it's the player not having strong math and statistics fundamentals to understand when is ideal to take certain metamagics.

Also what is your proposed design alternative? Make them all free? It's all well and good to criticize something but without healthy alternatives it's not worth much.

Okay, you lost me. Math has always been my worst subject in school (better at English, personally). What exactly do you mean?

[Easy_Lee]

Okay, you lost me. Math has always been my worst subject in school (better at English, personally). What exactly do you mean?

Basically, he's saying that certain Metamagics are more valuable at certain levels. Quicken isn't very useful in the first tier because it only adds one cantrip worth of damage and you only get to use it once or twice. You might twin Hold Person for the same cost, or Empower Shatter to reroll the low damage dice for half the cost.

At the second tier of play, you can heighten hold person on a boss to give him disadvantage on his save, roughly the same effect as if you cast the spell twice in the same round. Or you might twin haste for the same cost as heighten. Either way, the benefit outweighs a quickened cantrip.

Quicken is great if you have other meaningful things (that aren't leveled spells) to do with your action. It's a favorite of Sorcadins for that reason, who can basically use it as a limited action surge. Otherwise, it's probably not worth it.

[samcifer]

Basically, he's saying that certain Metamagics are more valuable at certain levels. Quicken isn't very useful in the first tier because it only adds one cantrip worth of damage and you only get to use it once or twice. You might twin Hold Person for the same cost, or Empower Shatter to reroll the low damage dice for half the cost.

At the second tier of play, you can heighten hold person on a boss to give him disadvantage on his save, roughly the same effect as if you cast the spell twice in the same round. Or you might twin haste for the same cost as heighten. Either way, the benefit outweighs a quickened cantrip.

Quicken is great if you have other meaningful things (that aren't leveled spells) to do with your action. It's a favorite of Sorcadins for that reason, who can basically use it as a limited action surge. Otherwise, it's probably not worth it.

Well, this is my first time playing a sorc as well as my first time playing anything other than 4e, so I feel a little lost on how best to use sorcery points other than to get back spell slots. My character focuses on blasting at the moment, but want to see if my dm will allow me to change from draconic blood to favored soul for some healing utility.

[TheUser]

I agree with most of what you say (and agree taking only high cost metamagics at low level is an easy mistake to make that would make the class feel very unsatisfying). Heighten encourages you towards high variance spells which is particularly risky when you have so few spells slots and I personally think quicken is overrated generally.

However, Empower is not in the same league as GWM and Sharpshooter. Some of the reasons GWM and Sharpshooter are so good is that they are predictable and you can expect to make use of them almost every turn in some way. Empower does not tick those boxes.

I'm not saying empower is bad. If you're taking damage spells it's a decent pick. But GWM/Sharpshooter it ain't.


I would say that GWM and SS are less reliable than empower because of how detrimental they are to your odds of success. Empower doesn't reduce saves by -5 right? And while you might roll high numbers across the board (mitigating empower's usefulness) the odds of that dimish as # of dice increases. Not wanting to empower a fireball is pretty rare...

[EvilAnagram]

Well, this is my first time playing a sorc as well as my first time playing anything other than 4e, so I feel a little lost on how best to use sorcery points other than to get back spell slots. My character focuses on blasting at the moment, but want to see if my dm will allow me to change from draconic blood to favored soul for some healing utility.

I have a guide in my signature that explains it in brief, but a blaster will usually want Quicken and Empowered. They're not terribly expensive, and they really boost your blasting potential.

[samcifer]

I have a guide in my signature that explains it in brief, but a blaster will usually want Quicken and Empowered. They're not terribly expensive, and they really boost your blasting potential.

Sadly the Favored Soul data is different from what's available now. Is there a link somewhere to the older version?

[coyote_sly]

I think this is pretty simple, really: because it's possible to have an idea of what a sorcerer is, and then completely ruin a build for it. Everything else in the game, what you see is what you get - holy cleric that can fight? Cleric war domain, bam. Sure to be functional. Tricky thief? Thief rogue does the job. Want to wreck stuff as a bear? Moon druid. Bam.

Sorc that blows **** up? Gee I hope you know how to manage your spells an initial metamagic choices. Thought Distant and Extend sounded awesome, and Witch Bolt, Cloud of Daggers, and Crown of Madness would be rad? Sucks to be you. No, you can't just prepare new spells tomorrow and sorry, you just blew half your metamagic options (2/3 really, you'll give up in frustration long before you hit 17). Yup, all the way to 20!

I don't necessarily agree that the sorc needs more options. But it DOES needs more safeguards - you should be able to pick a 'blaster sorc' subclass that GUARANTEES you will be able to fill that role, with spells and Metamagic associated with that subclass along with basic class features of the core progression. It doesn't help that for supposedly being SO powerful, for a huge chunk of the game you can only use metamagic a handful of times.

I would: reduce the end-game number of spells slightly, and add carefully chosen limited spells known to each subclass archetype (which I'd rework to be CLEARLY associated with support/control and blasting roles).

I'd add a couple known metamagic options to each of these subclasses - you know, the ones that don't suck and you will pick if you know what you're doing. I'd probably ADD two: ability to modify targeted saves for support/control, and ability to modify damage type for blaster, at lvl 10. This would replace the lvl 10 metamagic pick.

Finally, I'd add SOME way to regen sorc points on short rest early on, starting @ 1 and scaling to 4 by lvl 20. And then rework lvl 20 feature to be more like monk's ki feature where it has a chance to regen a small amount of sorc points if you start a turn with zero.

[Captain Panda]

I played a sorcadin from 10-20 and found it very satisfying. The key, as was posted above, is to find something to do with your action and use quicken as a bit of an action surge. Quickening a green flame blade on top of another green flame blade (and then getting a third attack from haste), and then smiting on top of it... it's just crazy good.

Sorcerers, to me, are best when seasoned with a bit of multiclassing. Sorlocks and sorcadins are both fantastic. Though I've never tried the class solo, a 2 paladin/18 sorcerer build is mostly sorcerer.

[Marcloure]

I played a sorcadin from 10-20 and found it very satisfying. The key, as was posted above, is to find something to do with your action and use quicken as a bit of an action surge. Quickening a green flame blade on top of another green flame blade (and then getting a third attack from haste), and then smiting on top of it... it's just crazy good.

Sorcerers, to me, are best when seasoned with a bit of multiclassing. Sorlocks and sorcadins are both fantastic. Though I've never tried the class solo, a 2 paladin/18 sorcerer build is mostly sorcerer.

Sorcerers are certainly very good at muticlassing, because they are Charisma based and metamagic helps at casting spells then taking an attack action. But that is the same to say this class is good at not being itself. Sorcerer is a class that isn't "satisfying" alone, by its own merit (or so is the common conclusion). And that is indeed a problem.

[JellyPooga]

So here's a thing that I suspected was the case, but this thread kinda proves it...Sorcerers being "unsatisfying" is a result of thinking that Sorcerer is the quintessential "blaster" Class and its features not supporting this role. So, uh, isn't the "fix" simply not thinking that it's a blaster?

I mean, let's take a look at the subclasses in the PHB and what you get; Draconic makes you tougher, increases elemental damage a bit, gives you wings and makes you scary. Wild makes your spells (weirdly) more reliable. Anything that screams "blaster" in there? Yeah, but not exactly heaps.

Metamagic? One, singular option is solely about inflicting damage. One. All the rest are about saving throws, number of targets and action economy (plus Subtle Spell).

Now let's look at the spell list; of 20 1st level spells, only 6 are direct damage and even one of those Ray of Sickness is more of a status inflicting debuff. Of 24 2nd level spells, a rather pathetic 4 spells deal damage and two of those are control spells with a damage rider. Similar disparity exists all the way up the list.

Take a good look at the writing on the wall; Sorcerers aren't blasters. Trying to play one as such is going to be as unsatisfying as trying to play a Paladin as an archer; sure, you can do it and have fun doing so, but it's not what the Class is designed to be doing. Playing a Sorcerer is about choosing a limited number of versatile spells and using metamagic to make them even more versatile. Yeah, there's some bonuses to blaster spells to make them more effective in that regard, to make that limited choice worth taking, but that doesn't make Sorcerers Blasters any more than Uncanny Dodge (alone) makes a Rogue a Tank.

[Saiga]

I'm pretty sure the issue isn't just that they're not Blasters, but that it's hard to see what the hell they ARE.

Versatile? They'll never be as versatile as a Wizard with their large spell list, greater spells known and ability to learn additional spells.

A small number of known spells and harder time swapping things out just does not pair well with being a versatile caster.

[Blue Lantern]

I'm pretty sure the issue isn't just that they're not Blasters, but that it's hard to see what the hell they ARE.

Versatile? They'll never be as versatile as a Wizard with their large spell list, greater spells known and ability to learn additional spells.

A small number of known spells and harder time swapping things out just does not pair well with being a versatile caster.

I think the Wizard vs Sorcerer is supposed to be strategical vs tactical approach.

Back in 3.5 with the spontaneous vs vancian spell preparation the Sorcerers caould be more versatile on the moment (using the effective spell more times, applying a good metamagic on the fly etc) while wizard where reliant on the day to day preparation and were more versatile in the long run, but less on the moment to moment (this only counting base classes, rule bloat changed things eventually)

Now that everyone has spontaneous spellcasting I guess the designer thought of recreate a similar dichotomy giving sorcerers metamagic to the same effects. Wizards use their spells as they are, with some improvement for the ones they are specialised in. Sorcerer can use metamagic to improve their spells the moment they need it.

It didn't work out obviously, but I want to be generous and say that this was the approach they were going for, although the execution left much to be desired.

[JellyPooga]

I'm pretty sure the issue isn't just that they're not Blasters, but that it's hard to see what the hell they ARE.

Versatile? They'll never be as versatile as a Wizard with their large spell list, greater spells known and ability to learn additional spells.

A small number of known spells and harder time swapping things out just does not pair well with being a versatile caster.

Versatile does not necessarily mean "lots of spells to choose from". A single spell can be versatile and it's in their spell choice that Sorcerers are forced to choose carefully so as not to pigeon-hole themselves. If you, as many do, choose to play a Blaster Sorcerer, taking damage delaing spells and little else, of course you're going to feel underwhelmed compared to the Wizard with his array of options. Choosing a range of spells that are more applicable to a variety of situations, on the other hand, the Sorcerer might not have the exact spell for the job like the Wizard does, but with a little creativity he has some tools (i.e. metamagic) to tailor what he has got to the requirements of the time. As Blue Lantern says, the sorcerer has Tactical versatility to the Wizards Strategic. Whether you consider them to have enough Tactical versatility or not is open to debate and largely a matter of opinion.

For instance, let's take two Sorcerer spells; Scorching Ray and Enlarge/Reduce. When casting the former, our Sorcerer isn't going to feel too impressive compared to his Wizard colleague; he gets a bit of extra damage if he's an appropriately coloured Draconic Sorcerer and he might be able to cast that and a cantrip in the same round, but it's pretty underwhelming when the Wizard can do pretty much the same as well as other stuff. With the latter, on the other paw, the Sorcerer has a lot more flexibility than the Wizard; he can Enlarge two allies, Enlarge one ally and Reduce one foe or reduce two foes; and that's just with Twin Spell. If the base spell is a lever, the Sorcerer has a bigger one for (and when it comes to leverage, size really does matter!).

What is the Sorcerer if not a blaster? She's an arcane spellcaster with largely the same spells available as a Wizard except her spells are just plain better. They don't need more spells known, they just need players to understand that it's in the application of their spells that they have versatility and that having such a limited pool of spells known is what makes their choices matter.

[Jerrykhor]

With the latter, on the other paw, the Sorcerer has a lot more flexibility than the Wizard; he can Enlarge two allies, Enlarge one ally and Reduce one foe or reduce two foes; and that's just with Twin Spell. If the base spell is a lever, the Sorcerer has a bigger one for (and when it comes to leverage, size really does matter!).


Sorry to be that guy, but by RAW, the sorcerer can't do that. Twin spell is like making a copy of one spell into two targets, because they are the same spell. So Enlarge both, or Reduce both, not Enlarge and Reduce at the same time.

[Bugado25]

So here's a thing that I suspected was the case, but this thread kinda proves it...Sorcerers being "unsatisfying" is a result of thinking that Sorcerer is the quintessential "blaster" Class and its features not supporting this role. So, uh, isn't the "fix" simply not thinking that it's a blaster?
That's a pretty good sign of bad design. When everyone wants and expects a class do to something and it does it badly, that is poor design IHMO.

Classes are supposed to fulfill archetypes, and the archetype most expect from the sorcerer is going around exploding everything, so it should be efficient at it.

If a rogue were extremelly efficient as a heavy armor brute but poor at the sneaky guy role, it would show a fail at the class design.
People go rogue to play the sneaky guy, not the heavy armor brute. And people go sorcerer wanting to play a blaster. IMO, if it fails at being a blaster, the class design failed.

[TheUser]

Sorry to be that guy, but by RAW, the sorcerer can't do that. Twin spell is like making a copy of one spell into two targets, because they are the same spell. So Enlarge both, or Reduce both, not Enlarge and Reduce at the same time.

Sorry to be that guy but by RAW you choose whether enlarge/reduce enlarges or reduces after it is cast. It's one spell called "Enlarge/Reduce" meaning when you twin it you are twinning "Enlarge/Reduce" not twinning Enlarge or Twinning Reduce. The spell reads:


You cause a creature or an object you can see within range to grow larger or smaller for the duration...

If you believe that interpretation of Twinned Spell's use of "The same spell" means it carries ALL the properties of the original cast (and not just the same name like everyone else) then I believe that to be a misinterpretation. Making that ruling carries with it a secondary caveat as well;
If you twin cantrips you would have to use the same hit and damage rolls for both spells since they are "the same" and to have your players roll seperate hit and damage rolls for each cantrip but trap them into using either double enlarge or double reduce then creates an inconsistency in your ruling.

Essentially, if you believe twinning an attack spell uses two seperate attack and damage rolls then you believe Enlarge/Reduce can have variance when twinned.



To digress, anyone who thinks sorcerers are bad blasters just because they have only so many blasting spells is an idiot.

They have the right spells for blasting, having more doesn't matter because they are limited in spells known anyway. If they had twice as many blasting spells but they were crappy ones like flamestrike and lightning arrow they wouldn't be any better off because they would never take them.

They have burning hands/thunderwave for level 1, shatter/cloud of daggers level 2; sure they don't get moonbeam but that's because it's OP with Quicken and not very thematic. They get fireball/lightning bolt at 3 but not spirit guardians because favored soul is too good and will never be a thing!- sorry....got off track *ahem* call lightning is OP with quicken and spirit guardians is not thematic or balanced. Wall of Fire and Ice Storm for level 4 etc. Etc.

You see where I'm going with this? They have strong blasting options at each spell level and they also have empower spell. I can speak from experience that sorcerers blast very well. They have the right spells; they don't need more options because they can only take what's most optimal anyway.

[Asmotherion]

There is some serious truth in what you say but, honestly, as far as your last paragraph goes, same could be said for many other classes...
- Fighter? I often see people being disappointed of features gained between 3rd attack and 4th attack (capstone), and often preferring switch to another class and never look back.
- Ranger? Even truer sadly, except maybe a Beastmaster (who needs quite a few levels to make sure the companion lives anyways), I see very few people on this forum making plans with Ranger getting higher than 5/6, sometimes 11th level.
- Paladin? Even that class which brings great goodies every step, up to some of the best capstones among all classes, is often cut off past 6, 7 or 11th level.
- Rogue? I see few builds threads keeping Rogue strong past 11th level, except a few Arcane Tricksters that want to get Haste.

Honestly, the only (sub)classes really compelling the player to keep "pure" are imo...
- Moon Druid: because you get better forms every 3 levels and you end with the greatest capstone of all classes.
- Monk: because you rely on a resource that increases linearly with level, and you get some of the most powerful abilities of all classes in the last tier.
- Barbarian: because you get strong improvments to your core mechanic (Rage) every few levels, and you end with one of the top 5 capstones (unlimited Rage, big boost to damage and defense).

But, I'm pretty sure that in practice, the majority of people actually playing D&d stay single class, whatever that is. Not all players are optimizers (or at least experienced enough to get bored with single-class). That's why what we see on forums should not be taken as a reliable representation of the whole community, because we are a small subset of that community, sharing a specific mindset.

Truth is that my favorite part of 5e is the easy multiclass, exactly because it allows a dipper customisation of your character. It may not alway be optimisation either, or just light optimisation, and then taking some levels for role playing based on your environment and reactions to it.

When I build a character, the DM gives me the Starting levels of the Campain. I imagin the Character's Backstory up to that level, and then try to translate it in class levels, stats, feats (if avalable), alignment etc. Then, from that point on, when I have to take a level, I think about the RP that I've done this far, and think "what class do I deserve?" For example, if I'm a Sorcerer, but my first reaction to danger in every encounter so far was to throw a dagger and then hide, maybe I deserve my next level as a Rogue? If on the other hand, I've been in the first line, and tried to save my fallen companion, been a devoted follower of a certain deity (for arguement's sake, let's say Bahamut), and my overall RP tended towards it, maybe it would make for a better story to multiclass into Paladin.

I see your point on the other hand. Single class is cleaner. Simpler. And it makes being a specific class more special. On the other hand, multiclass gives the oportunity for more unique characters were no 2 of them have the exact same abilities.

About numbers and optimisation, it depends on the game and genre you play. One DM might tell you "hey, since we ordered Pizza, build me some characters at X level, and let's slay some orcs", for a Hack and Slash game. In a game like that, you know that all you care about are numbers, gear and loot. On the other hand, you may have a serious heavy RP game, were you don't really care about your optimisation; It's all about how you play your character that counts. I once one-shotted the BBEG in the middle of the village, only to go on trial, since he actually never did anything illegal so I basically killed him in cold blood. The only reason I didn't face the death penalty was that I could prove he was a demon worshiper.

[Citan]

That's a pretty good sign of bad design. When everyone wants and expects a class do to something and it does it badly, that is poor design IHMO.

Classes are supposed to fulfill archetypes, and the archetype most expect from the sorcerer is going around exploding everything, so it should be efficient at it.

If a rogue were extremelly efficient as a heavy armor brute but poor at the sneaky guy role, it would show a fail at the class design.
People go rogue to play the sneaky guy, not the heavy armor brute. And people go sorcerer wanting to play a blaster. IMO, if it fails at being a blaster, the class design failed.
Wow. What a load of tomfoolery, seriously. I know it's a harsh expression, but I don't have any other word for it.

First, where from do you get that "everyone" expects a Sorcerer to be a blaster? In fact, how do you think that anyone would expect even Wizard, Druid, Warlock, Bard or Cleric to be a "blaster"?
Sorcerer is a CASTER. CASTER is about DOING MAGIC.

Archetypes are realized by the origin of magic (ties with god or nature, self-learning and experimentation, drawing inner power, making devilish pact), additional features (healer/skillmonkey/shapeshifter/etc) and only vaguely spelllist orientation.
Blasting is just one small kind (and frankly among the most boring, except on grand scale like DBF or Meteor Swarm) of everything you can do with magic, as you can check yourself by analysing spelllist of every casters (even Warlocks): pure damage spells are always ever only a very small portion of everything available.
Casters can control people's mind and moves, transform environment and objects, create powerful illusions, conjure animals and so forth. Caster =/= blaster.

Second, since when are casters supposed to be efficient without a minimum of intelligence from the player?
Even an on-paper optimized Wizard can be a real trash if the situation doesn't pan as he expected, or if he generally uses his spell without any wisdom. Even a great player Wizard can fudge a roll on his Fireball or fail to apply that Hold effect everyone was counting on...
Sorcerer brings all the tools you need to trump any other casters in some situation in the ratio result/action economy/resource economy.
But these are just tools, they don't provide auto-win buttons.

Exactly like Monk is (usually) harder to play efficiently than a Battlemaster or Barbarian especially at low levels, but shines brilliantly in hands of capable players, Sorcerer is harder to play than a Wizard or Cleric but can end much more efficient than them in a few niches. And, except in very slim parties, nobody expect anybody to be "good everywhere" (which is very hard to do anyways, even for a Bard or Wizard) but prefer having one great at a few things.
(And seriously, it's really not hard to see which Metamagic synergizes best with which spell: one that fails to have that minimum imagination is just not fit to play a caster).

Third, people reaaaally overrate the drawback of having less spell known than other casters.
Because in the biggest number of situations, you will cast at most 2 or 3 spells in a given encounter, one of them being a concentration spell which you will try to make last as much as possible.
Also, just reading optimization threads here illustrates very well how most players only use a handful of spells in most encounters: Clerics will Bless/Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians, Druids will keep a Conjuration spell, Bards will use Heat Metal/Shatter/Bestow Curse/Plant Growth, Sorcerer or Wizards will use Fog Cloud/Darkness/Phantasmal Force/Hold Person/Fireball/Misty Step/Web/Hypnotic Pattern/Polymorph...

So basically, in the majority of encounters everyone uses more or less the same set of tools, which means having more spells available is only situationally better.
It's even worse at low levels, when you get few slots for the whole day and usually not that great a chance to succeed when saving throws are involved.


On that note, many Sorcerer spells are usable in wide array of combat and non-combat situations, like Expeditious Retreat, Silent Image, Sleep, Enlarge/Reduce, Enhance Ability, Levitate, Fly, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Polymorph, Animate Objects, etc...
So it's really not that hard to tailor a Sorcerer to be truly versatile, or totally dedicated instead into a specific pillar.

But let's say you have a Sorcerer and Wizard in the party, and Sorcerer overly specialized himself (which is, again, player's choice). Well, how does that matter really? Eldricht Knight can do many more various things than a Barbarian which is basically good only at hitting and getting hit. That does not change the fact that anyone likes having a Barb in their group, because they are extremely good at what they do.

[Saiga]

Sorry to be that guy but by RAW you choose whether enlarge/reduce enlarges or reduces after it is cast. It's one spell called "Enlarge/Reduce" meaning when you twin it you are twinning "Enlarge/Reduce" not twinning Enlarge or Twinning Reduce. The spell reads:



If you believe that interpretation of Twinned Spell's use of "The same spell" means it carries ALL the properties of the original cast (and not just the same name like everyone else) then I believe that to be a misinterpretation. Making that ruling carries with it a secondary caveat as well;
If you twin cantrips you would have to use the same hit and damage rolls for both spells since they are "the same" and to have your players roll seperate hit and damage rolls for each cantrip but trap them into using either double enlarge or double reduce then creates an inconsistency in your ruling.

Essentially, if you believe twinning an attack spell uses two seperate attack and damage rolls then you believe Enlarge/Reduce can have variance when twinned.



To digress, anyone who thinks sorcerers are bad blasters just because they have only so many blasting spells is an idiot.

They have the right spells for blasting, having more doesn't matter because they are limited in spells known anyway. If they had twice as many blasting spells but they were crappy ones like flamestrike and lightning arrow they wouldn't be any better off because they would never take them.

They have burning hands/thunderwave for level 1, shatter/cloud of daggers level 2; sure they don't get moonbeam but that's because it's OP with Quicken and not very thematic. They get fireball/lightning bolt at 3 but not spirit guardians because favored soul is too good and will never be a thing!- sorry....got off track *ahem* call lightning is OP with quicken and spirit guardians is not thematic or balanced. Wall of Fire and Ice Storm for level 4 etc. Etc.

You see where I'm going with this? They have strong blasting options at each spell level and they also have empower spell. I can speak from experience that sorcerers blast very well. They have the right spells; they don't need more options because they can only take what's most optimal anyway.

AFAIK, all we have is that Mearls tweeted that it's one spell with two targets for the attack/damage roll.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mikemearls/status/506908500392280064

The RAW does not specify and Mearls does not support your interpretation.

[EvilAnagram]

AFAIK, all we have is that Mearls tweeted that it's one spell with two targets for the attack/damage roll.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mikemearls/status/506908500392280064

The RAW does not specify and Mearls does not support your interpretation.

Mearls's interpretations are not RAW. Usually, they're not RAI. He explicitly states that they're just the way he would rule it, and he should not be taken as an abaolute authority.

[Saiga]

While I am aware, they seem to be the only input we have on this one.

[samcifer]

So Extend and Twined ae the best ones to get at level 3 for a Favored Soul sorc who goes for fire, radiant and healing spells as well as protecting ones?

(my spells for reference)

Lv 0:

Firebolt, Acid Splash, Sacred Flame, and Spare the Dying

Lv 1:

Magic Missile, Healing Word, and Mage Armor

[TheUser]

So Extend and Twined ae the best ones to get at level 3 for a Favored Soul sorc who goes for fire, radiant and healing spells as well as protecting ones?

(my spells for reference)

Lv 0:

Firebolt, Acid Splash, Sacred Flame, and Spare the Dying

Lv 1:

Magic Missile, Healing Word, and Mage Armor

You want empowered instead of extended imho

[samcifer]

And twined used with magic missile will allow for basically 6 missiles?

[Nu]

The way I see it, there are two things worth noting here:

The idea that any full caster could be the "most unsatisfying class" is laughable at best.
But obviously they're going to be unsatisfying as long as they use the same (but more limited) spell list as the wizard.

[TheUser]

And twined used with magic missile will allow for basically 6 missiles?


Thanks to errata you can't twinned something that can already have multiple target so it doesn't work with magic missile

[samcifer]

Thanks to errata you can't twinned something that can already have multiple target so it doesn't work with magic missile

Damn... Okay, but it'll work on everything else except maybe Acid Splash?

[ZorroGames]

While I am aware, they seem to be the only input we have on this one.

Well there is some serious input in this and other threads. Depending on single source input seems susceptible to one person's uncinscious bias.

[Easy_Lee]

The way I see it, there are two things worth noting here:

The idea that any full caster could be the "most unsatisfying class" is laughable at best.
But obviously they're going to be unsatisfying as long as they use the same (but more limited) spell list as the wizard.

Unsatisfying doesn't mean least powerful. A sorcerer is almost certainly more powerful than a fighter in Tier 4. But yes, the two most common complaints I've seen are that they have a limited version of the wizard spell list and that new players can end up stuck with poor spell and Metamagic choices. It's not that any spell or Metamagic is bad, but a sorcerer might pick the wrong Metamagics for his spells and be unable to do anything about it for a long time.

The second problem is easy to fix: allow sorcerers to change their Metamagics and swap more spells when they level up, or just give them full access to their spell list and prepare spells like a Druid. The first problem is harder to resolve, though I think this is where Sorcerous Origins should have stepped in.

[Nu]

Unsatisfying doesn't mean least powerful. A sorcerer is almost certainly more powerful than a fighter in Tier 4. But yes, the two most common complaints I've seen are that they have a limited version of the wizard spell list and that new players can end up stuck with poor spell and Metamagic choices. It's not that any spell or Metamagic is bad, but a sorcerer might pick the wrong Metamagics for his spells and be unable to do anything about it for a long time.

The second problem is easy to fix: allow sorcerers to change their Metamagics and swap more spells when they level up, or just give them full access to their spell list and prepare spells like a Druid. The first problem is harder to resolve, though I think this is where Sorcerous Origins should have stepped in.

I'll admit that I'm (personally) disappointed that none of the martial characters really come close to mechanically embodying the concepts of legendary heroes like Beowulf and Cu Chulainn, which was something mentioned in the articles about the Next playtest. Nothing could match my disappointment in that regard.

My preferred solution to a problem with sorcerer dissatisfaction would be the dump the current concept of "3E sorcerer with exclusive metamagic" and bring it closer to the 4E sorcerer, or the sorcerer from early Next playtest packets. You know, one that was very unique and had something very mechanically interesting going on, with its own abilities and something to do other than cast wizard spells "but with a twist!" I really liked the old idea of becoming more and more draconic as you cast spells, until you were a full-fledged melee combatant, and I would've liked to see that taken to the natural extreme of becoming a literal dragon at higher levels after you used up enough spell slots.

[Doug Lampert]

Thanks to errata you can't twinned something that can already have multiple target so it doesn't work with magic missile

That's the original rule too. Read what twin actually does. It lets the spell have two targets. That's it's stated effect. Nothing about twice as many missiles or rays or anything else.

Magic Missile with three missiles is already able to have up to three targets. Twin it, and you've spent sorcery points to give it the amazing ability to have two targets rather than three, and that is ALL it has ever said it did.

Various statements from WotC simply clarify that the rule means what it says, not what people who want 6 scorching rays or whatever wanted it to say.

[Socratov]

First off, I'd like to say that sorcerers are fun. I love how metamagic works and how it's a sorcerer only thing.

However,

Too few spells, too few options to take metamagic so you will take the best 3 or screw yourself over for the majority of your career with useless metamagic.

As for the sorcerypoints, I find them too little, I think it's fun how the designers were going for flexibility for the sorcerer, but I think that the sorcerer should have gone with spellpoints, with metamagic piggybacking off of them, and with a short rest mechanic for refreshing a part of your points to fuel metamagic and to act as arcane recovery.

You know, I don't care which option is picked, but I'd either want more spells known for the sorcerer (to even out the lag behind bard, druid, cleric & co.), or give them more magic uses per day (and full metamagic so that their limited spells known really amounts to something).

Whatever the choice, I think that the sorcerer needs something to make it viable alongside other main casters.

[Bugado25]

Wow. What a load of tomfoolery, seriously. I know it's a harsh expression, but I don't have any other word for it.

First, where from do you get that "everyone" expects a Sorcerer to be a blaster? In fact, how do you think that anyone would expect even Wizard, Druid, Warlock, Bard or Cleric to be a "blaster"?
Sorcerer is a CASTER. CASTER is about DOING MAGIC.

Archetypes are realized by the origin of magic (ties with god or nature, self-learning and experimentation, drawing inner power, making devilish pact), additional features (healer/skillmonkey/shapeshifter/etc) and only vaguely spelllist orientation.
Blasting is just one small kind (and frankly among the most boring, except on grand scale like DBF or Meteor Swarm) of everything you can do with magic, as you can check yourself by analysing spelllist of every casters (even Warlocks): pure damage spells are always ever only a very small portion of everything available.
Casters can control people's mind and moves, transform environment and objects, create powerful illusions, conjure animals and so forth. Caster =/= blaster.

I wasn't even talking about sorcerers when I said everyone. It was a generic statement with a generalization.
I also used the wrong word thinking about it now. Role would be a much better fit than archetype in there.

What I was trying to say on that post is this:

If most of the player base expect a class to be good at X, it should have been designed to be good at X. Even if the class is good at Y and Z, lots of people are going to be frustated because they are going to the class expecting to be good at X. IMO, if the class is not good at X, it is a sign of bad design.

Applying it to sorcs:

If most of the player base expect a sorcs to be good at blasting, it should have been designed to be good at blasting. Even if the class is good at other things, lots of people are going to be frustated because they are going to the class expecting to be good at blasting. IMO, if sorcs are not good at blasting, it is sign of bad design.

If it is really most of the player base that expect sorcs to be blasters, I don't known (although I do think it seem to be a common view), and I said it because the post I quoted was talking about it.

Of course, while classes should fulfill what people expect them to fulfill, they should not be limited by it, and thankfully are not.

[Corran]

So here's a thing that I suspected was the case, but this thread kinda proves it...Sorcerers being "unsatisfying" is a result of thinking that Sorcerer is the quintessential "blaster" Class and its features not supporting this role. So, uh, isn't the "fix" simply not thinking that it's a blaster?

I mean, let's take a look at the subclasses in the PHB and what you get; Draconic makes you tougher, increases elemental damage a bit, gives you wings and makes you scary. Wild makes your spells (weirdly) more reliable. Anything that screams "blaster" in there? Yeah, but not exactly heaps.

Metamagic? One, singular option is solely about inflicting damage. One. All the rest are about saving throws, number of targets and action economy (plus Subtle Spell).

Now let's look at the spell list; of 20 1st level spells, only 6 are direct damage and even one of those Ray of Sickness is more of a status inflicting debuff. Of 24 2nd level spells, a rather pathetic 4 spells deal damage and two of those are control spells with a damage rider. Similar disparity exists all the way up the list.

Take a good look at the writing on the wall; Sorcerers aren't blasters. Trying to play one as such is going to be as unsatisfying as trying to play a Paladin as an archer; sure, you can do it and have fun doing so, but it's not what the Class is designed to be doing. Playing a Sorcerer is about choosing a limited number of versatile spells and using metamagic to make them even more versatile. Yeah, there's some bonuses to blaster spells to make them more effective in that regard, to make that limited choice worth taking, but that doesn't make Sorcerers Blasters any more than Uncanny Dodge (alone) makes a Rogue a Tank.
I couldn't agree more, or say this in a better way.

Back on topic, for me it is the low number of known spells they get. I get that's part of the design philosophy, but I think they overdid it. So yeah, a few more spells would do it for me, most likely. Not that I dont enjoy sorcerers as is (I simply love the concept of innate magic, as opposed to studying and mastering, or praying for it, or making a bargain for it, etc) , but the low number of spells is very discouraging indeed.

[MeeposFire]

I couldn't agree more, or say this in a better way.

Back on topic, for me it is the low number of known spells they get. I get that's part of the design philosophy, but I think they overdid it. So yeah, a few more spells would do it for me, most likely. Not that I dont enjoy sorcerers as is (I simply love the concept of innate magic, as opposed to studying and mastering, or praying for it, or making a bargain for it, etc) , but the low number of spells is very discouraging indeed.

For me I think it is how the class has become about certain themes but the spells are mostly divorced from it. I think that the class would be darn near perfect if you were to gain a set of thematic spells that fit your theme and then let you use your other spells to personalize your sorcerer as you like. I think here are enough spells currently to customize your sorcerer but not enough to customize enough while getting those thematic spells you should want. That is why I give them a set of thematic spells which I find solves most of the issues handily.

[Byke]

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/tomb-annihilation

Sorry for necroing this thread, but I find it hilarious that all of the issues (mistakes) brought up in this thread, that noob make when building sorcerers. Were applied by WotC to the Sorcerer pre-generated surrogate for tomb of annihilation. See Tier 1 and Tier 2.

If they lack the basic understanding of the failings of the class, what hopes are there that they will ever fix them?

[Citan]

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/tomb-annihilation

Sorry for necroing this thread, but I find it hilarious that all of the issues (mistakes) brought up in this thread, that noob make when building sorcerers. Were applied by WotC to the Sorcerer pre-generated surrogate for tomb of annihilation. See Tier 1 and Tier 2.

If they lack the basic understanding of the failings of the class, what hopes are there that they will ever fix them?
My apologies in advance if this should be something trivial, but could you please explain what/how was a failure in these characters? I admit I fail to see the failures... :)

Please note that there is no sarcasm here: I just checked the sheets, with no other knowledge about the context or campaign it would apply to, nor if those characters are supposed to be drop-ins for players or NPC or the like. And in a "blank" context, I don't see what the problem is supposed to be: the Sorcerer mainly uses spells to get great mobility/defense at low level, and learns AOE spells for more versatility as well as a powerful single target. While those are certainly very different choices compared to what I'd pick, they form a thematically coherent set and maybe they are particularly suited to the campaign's settings and expected creatures, or at least that's the guess I make.

[Byke]

My apologies in advance if this should be something trivial, but could you please explain what/how was a failure in these characters? I admit I fail to see the failures... :)

Please note that there is no sarcasm here: I just checked the sheets, with no other knowledge about the context or campaign it would apply to, nor if those characters are supposed to be drop-ins for players or NPC or the like. And in a "blank" context, I don't see what the problem is supposed to be: the Sorcerer mainly uses spells to get great mobility/defense at low level, and learns AOE spells for more versatility as well as a powerful single target. While those are certainly very different choices compared to what I'd pick, they form a thematically coherent set and maybe they are particularly suited to the campaign's settings and expected creatures, or at least that's the guess I make.

I don't believe I said failure :) I said issues or mistake that new players make when creating Sorcerers.

1) Draconic Ancestry - Black Dragon - Elemental Affinity Acid. While thematically interesting, least supported draconic background spell wise.

2) Only one Acid based spell on this spell list a cantrip Acid Splash...no other support for their 6th level ability, aside from Acid splash....Sleep over Chromatic Orb? Hell even Vitriolic Sphere instead of Fireball would have been more thematic and in line with the background chosen.

3) Taking Quicken before 10th, Twin or even empower would be better. While not terrible, it isn’t optimal.

4) With such a limited number of spells known for a Sorcerer, locking themselves into such a narrowly focused spell list is sub –optimal. You yourself said you would make different choices. While I understand thematic builds, it doesn’t mean you need to be sub-optimal, Sorcerer should be taking spells that can be applied in a multitude of situations to be optimized.

For example
a) Blight is a terrible…..8d8 with a con save, aside from being a bad spell, construct and undead are immune. Only new player would think its good vs a spell like Polymorph which can be used for mobility defense and damage.

b) Expeditious Retreat over Haste which can be used, offensively and defensively or to buff a party member.

c) Spell list focused on blasting and has not control, much better options, hold person, web, banishment…..overall the spell list is sub –optimal…water walk….what more needs to be said? If a Sorcerer really wants water walk take ritual caster.

Overall they built a sub-optimal Sorcerer. Much like a new player would, which doesn’t install much confidence that they understand how Sorcerer work.

[SharkForce]

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/tomb-annihilation

Sorry for necroing this thread, but I find it hilarious that all of the issues (mistakes) brought up in this thread, that noob make when building sorcerers. Were applied by WotC to the Sorcerer pre-generated surrogate for tomb of annihilation. See Tier 1 and Tier 2.

If they lack the basic understanding of the failings of the class, what hopes are there that they will ever fix them?

i slightly suspect really crap optimization to be deliberate. looking through the tier 1 options, the barbarian is a berserker, the rogue took expertise in sleight of hand, the fighter is a champion, the wizard's level 2 spells actually include melf's acid arrow as opposed to any good spell (and their level 1 spell list is awful) and no necromancy spells at all if i'm not mistaken, the paladin is dex-based but has no proficiency in any dex-based skill, the ranger is built for TWF, the warlock has beast speech as an invocation and no agonizing blast, plus can cast darkness but has no devil's sight, owns leather armour, and has the armour of shadows invocation, the monk is a non-variant human and has no quarterstaff or spear, the cleric chose spare the dying as a cantrip (and that can't be fixed) and has 8 dexterity with no heavy armour proficiency (and oddly isn't proficient in religion, though i don't necessarily count that as an optimization fail), the bard has expertise in performance (flavourful, certainly, but not at all optimized), and knows speak with animals and animal messenger... yeah, the sorcerer is pretty bad, but so is everything else.

frankly, while these are not equally poor choices (that warlock *really* got shafted), i'd say they were just not built with optimization in mind.

edit: continuing onwards to the level 8 stuff...

lore bard, i think one of their magical secrets are shield and misty step, which aren't terrible, but... no fireball? no conjure animals? nothing swiped from paladin list? and the rest of their spells miss some of the nicest bard spells too...
the knowledge cleric is continuing to invest in strength. at level 3, it was an odd, but not bad choice. at level 8, your cantrip is better.
the monk *still* doesn't have a staff or spear.
the warlock still has two really unimpressive choices for invocations, though at least 2 decent ones got added in (but still not the ritual casting one, which is probably half the reason to go tome lock), and spell selection is pretty meh at best (no hypnotic pattern, no banishment, no armour of agathys, no hunger of hadar)
the wizard spell list is pretty lousy too, though at least it finally picked up some necromancy spells.

yeah, the sorcerer is pretty bad. but it still isn't the only one.

[Blue Lantern]

Overall they built a sub-optimal Sorcerer. Much like a new player would, which doesn’t install much confidence that they understand how Sorcerer work.

Or maybe, just maybe, they didn't care to create an optimised sorcerer.

It may come to a surprise to you, but not everyone cares about optimisation, in fact, the vast majority doesn't.

[Ravinsild]

i slightly suspect really crap optimization to be deliberate. looking through the tier 1 options, the barbarian is a berserker, the rogue took expertise in sleight of hand, the fighter is a champion, the wizard's level 2 spells actually include melf's acid arrow as opposed to any good spell (and their level 1 spell list is awful) and no necromancy spells at all if i'm not mistaken, the paladin is dex-based but has no proficiency in any dex-based skill, the ranger is built for TWF, the warlock has beast speech as an invocation and no agonizing blast, plus can cast darkness but has no devil's sight, owns leather armour, and has the armour of shadows invocation, the monk is a non-variant human and has no quarterstaff or spear, the cleric chose spare the dying as a cantrip (and that can't be fixed) and has 8 dexterity with no heavy armour proficiency (and oddly isn't proficient in religion, though i don't necessarily count that as an optimization fail), the bard has expertise in performance (flavourful, certainly, but not at all optimized), and knows speak with animals and animal messenger... yeah, the sorcerer is pretty bad, but so is everything else.

frankly, while these are not equally poor choices (that warlock *really* got shafted), i'd say they were just not built with optimization in mind.

I don't suppose any of them might be these guys? They're like the standard beginner characters from 3.5 and idk how I remember them but I thought they might be the same characters ported to 5e lol

Barbarian: Krusk (half-orc male)
Bard: Gimble (gnome male), Devis (half-elf male)
Cleric: Jozan (human male cleric of Pelor), Eberk (dwarf male cleric of Moradin)
Druid: Vadania (half-elf female)
Fighter: Tordek (Dwarf male), Regdar (Human male)
Monk: Ember (human female)
Paladin: Alhandra (human female)
Ranger: Soveliss (elf male)
Rogue: Lidda (halfling female), Kerwyn (human male)
Sorcerer: Hennet (human male) Aramil (elf male)
Wizard: Mialee (elf female), Naull (human female), Nebin (gnome male illusionist)

[samcifer]

Okay, so what exactly IS good about the sorcerer? As I'm playing one as my first-ever 5e character, I'd like to know. (going with the latest Favored Soul for sorcerous origin here.)

[Easy_Lee]

Okay, so what exactly IS good about the sorcerer? As I'm playing one as my first-ever 5e character, I'd like to know. (going with the latest Favored Soul for sorcerous origin here.)

The biggest problem with sorcerer is that it's comparatively easy to screw up your build. If you carefully plan your spell and Metamagic choices, building toward a particular role such as blasting or support, you should have a good time.

[samcifer]

The biggest problem with sorcerer is that it's comparatively easy to screw up your build. If you carefully plan your spell and Metamagic choices, building toward a particular role such as blasting or support, you should have a good time.

Anyone have examples of a good blaster sorcerer build?

[Byke]

Or maybe, just maybe, they didn't care to create an optimised sorcerer.

It may come to a surprise to you, but not everyone cares about optimisation, in fact, the vast majority doesn't.

What wrong with being optimized? For sorcerer it's necessary if you want to be effective unlike the wizard , who can eventually learn all of their spells. Sorcerer don't have that luxury with only 15 spells known, new players make the mistake of taking sub-optimal spells which in turn impacts their playing experience and gives the wrong impression about the sorcerer class.

WotC perpetuating sub-optimal is just bad. I will admit I didn't really look at the other classes as I was so unimpressed with the Sorcerer.

[8wGremlin]

You're lucky in that you are allowed to pick cleric spells (you're a favoured soul) which opens up a lot more choices.

But you need to pick spells that have more than one application, versatile spells, basically don't pick spells that are niche spells.

Draconic Sorcerers element gives you a bonus on that element, so it makes sense to capitalize on it.
unfortunately, there are very few Sorcerer spells that have certain elements, so some Draconic choices will mean your not getting all that you should from your spell choices.

Also when you level up, look at your old spells and see which can be swapped out, for a more versatile spell.
But, be careful because you may have a lot of higher level spells, but not enough spell slots to be useful.

Metamagic is the main reason to be a sorcerer, but these eat in to your sorcery points, and as such you should again look towards metamagic that is versatile and usable.

Twin and Quicken are usually good choices, empower is not that great in some peoples minds, but opinions differ.

I play a Favoured Soul/Chainlock, and twin haste, and polymorph, as well as twining other cleric spells, such as warding bond, and heal myself (maximum HP due to a UA:invocation) when needed.

So it's about playing intelligently, and not always about blasting, which some people think is what a Sorcerer should be.

This is my opinion, yours will differ, so take what you want, and leave the rest, but above all have fun, and try and leave the world in a better place.

[SharkForce]

Anyone have examples of a good blaster sorcerer build?

fireball, one or maybe 2 other nuking spells probably of a different element, the rest of your spells into something else.

huge variety in blast is not terribly valuable. having a few reliable options is good. having 10 different blasting spells is like carrying 10 different kinds of guns; it might be worth having, say, an assault rifle and a pistol to be used for different kinds of fights, but you likely don't need 2 different hunting rifles (one semiautomatic, the other bolt-action), an assault rifle, a shotgun, a sawed-off shotgun, an automatic shotgun, an SMG, a machine pistol, a semi-automatic pistol, a holdout, and a dart gun. that's probably an excessive number of ways of doing approximately the same thing, and while each may be slightly better in a different situation, you'll probably find yourself wishing that instead of bringing 50 lbs of guns on a hunting trip, you brought along 7-8 lbs of guns and maybe a camping stove with some fuel, a knife, a hatchet, some rope, a pair of binoculars, a bedroll, a cooler, and a tent.

[Byke]

Anyone have examples of a good blaster sorcerer build?

There are several ways of building a blaster Sorcerer. But it should be in a different thread.

If you want high sustained single target DPS then take 2 levels of Warlock, since you are using UA Hexblade is best. Eldritch blast + Agonizing Blast invocation are your main source of damage. Then either take Devil's Sight for abusing the Darkness spell (adv on all attacks) or Repelling Blast for more control.

If you want to be more AOE focused then look at multi-classing into Tempest Cleric and focus on lightning and thunder spells.

I prefer the Sorc/Hex build the best as the sustained DPS is awesome and you can the nova with Quicken (FB/EB or just EB/EB is great).

[Citan]

I don't believe I said failure :) I said issues or mistake that new players make when creating Sorcerers.

1) Draconic Ancestry - Black Dragon - Elemental Affinity Acid. While thematically interesting, least supported draconic background spell wise.

2) Only one Acid based spell on this spell list a cantrip Acid Splash...no other support for their 6th level ability, aside from Acid splash....Sleep over Chromatic Orb? Hell even Vitriolic Sphere instead of Fireball would have been more thematic and in line with the background chosen.

3) Taking Quicken before 10th, Twin or even empower would be better. While not terrible, it isn’t optimal.

4) With such a limited number of spells known for a Sorcerer, locking themselves into such a narrowly focused spell list is sub –optimal. You yourself said you would make different choices. While I understand thematic builds, it doesn’t mean you need to be sub-optimal, Sorcerer should be taking spells that can be applied in a multitude of situations to be optimized.

For example
a) Blight is a terrible…..8d8 with a con save, aside from being a bad spell, construct and undead are immune. Only new player would think its good vs a spell like Polymorph which can be used for mobility defense and damage.

b) Expeditious Retreat over Haste which can be used, offensively and defensively or to buff a party member.

c) Spell list focused on blasting and has not control, much better options, hold person, web, banishment…..overall the spell list is sub –optimal…water walk….what more needs to be said? If a Sorcerer really wants water walk take ritual caster.

Overall they built a sub-optimal Sorcerer. Much like a new player would, which doesn’t install much confidence that they understand how Sorcerer work.
But you know, we really have different opinions about how much suboptimal this actually is.

First, consider the party (I suppose these all characters form a party): with so many people in here, it's not a problem to specialize in one particular role. So goes the point c).

Other points...
Blight: surely it isn't the best of a spell one could get, but you are making it worse than it is really. So what if it doesn't affect undeads and constructs? Those among them that are real threats at that level won't be that common. It's not that bad a spell, still enforcing half damage on save. Although I would have personally taken Elemental Bane. ;)

Expeditious Retreat over Haste? Well, you have only one concentration slot after all, and you are comparing a 1st level spell with a 3rd one.

Only one Acid spell? Err, why not seriously? If that character had instead a big acid spell, you would probably have said "meh, he took the worst damage type anyways".
That character has its bonus damage on that one spell he's gonna spam all over day, it's really enough. Especially with Quickened if any need for nova.
I think it's in fact the best decision to make precisely because that Origin has very few affiliated spells, and those are usually DoT ones. With this choice, you don't strain yourself always using that one spell.

Metamagic choices? Well, Quicken is a bit costly, but of a fixed cost. Agreed that Empower could have been more suited, but Subtle is not a bad choice by far: now you are sure your Fireball will actually be launched even if there is a caster.

Seriously, this build is not optimized like the ones people here like to do, but it's not bad. Really not bad at all in fact: it just enforces the natural thematics that revolve around goblins (being sneaky, agile, mobile, playing with dangerous liquids) to create a Sorcerer that make a point of tackling every encounter by dashing around (possibly while hiding) to position himself as required to fit as many targets as possible in any given (Subtle if necessary) AOE.

Like, this character actually has some potential depth and fluff, contrarily to many optimized builds that in the end are like cookie-cutter builds because so similar, or built solely in relation with what the party needs up to the point of making any personality vanish.

If I had an unique change to make to it, I'd replace Blight with either Polymorph (as you said, very versatile) or Enhance Ability (because there is always a chance to make it useful in any day), to greatly expand this character's potential in and outside of combat.

But I agree with Sharkforce: these characters were clearly designed with fluff > optimization.
By the way, I also agree with him that you usually don't need more than 2-3 blasting spells to have some variety in shape and elements, at least if you want to be good all-around.


What wrong with being optimized? For sorcerer it's necessary if you want to be effective unlike the wizard , who can eventually learn all of their spells. Sorcerer don't have that luxury with only 15 spells known, new players make the mistake of taking sub-optimal spells which in turn impacts their playing experience and gives the wrong impression about the sorcerer class.

WotC perpetuating sub-optimal is just bad. I will admit I didn't really look at the other classes as I was so unimpressed with the Sorcerer.
I'll bite yet again.
1) If alone in the party, Wizard has 44 spell known. Period. Any other spell is the courtesy of the DM, whatever way he grabs it.
2) Again, Sorcerer with his Metamagic has a special fluff, which goes with a specific mindset (exactly the same with Warlock, Wizard, Paladin etc): if you are not creative, you should not try to play a Sorcerer in the first place.
If you are creative, then just having Enhance Ability, Polymorph, Chromatic Orb, (Mass) Suggestion / Charm Person / Silent Image / Major Image, Shatter/Fireball/Chain Lightning would be enough to make you a very valuable asset to the party, whatever situation you are in. You still have 10 spells to play with, including the fact you can swap one for another as you progress...

Frankly, Wizards have many many more potential spells, but Sorcerer has the best ratio of "creative spells" of any spell list.

[Byke]

But you know, we really have different opinions about how much suboptimal this actually is.

First, consider the party (I suppose these all characters form a party): with so many people in here, it's not a problem to specialize in one particular role. So goes the point c).

Other points...
Blight: surely it isn't the best of a spell one could get, but you are making it worse than it is really. So what if it doesn't affect undeads and constructs? Those among them that are real threats at that level won't be that common. It's not that bad a spell, still enforcing half damage on save. Although I would have personally taken Elemental Bane. ;)

Expeditious Retreat over Haste? Well, you have only one concentration slot after all, and you are comparing a 1st level spell with a 3rd one.

Only one Acid spell? Err, why not seriously? If that character had instead a big acid spell, you would probably have said "meh, he took the worst damage type anyways".
That character has its bonus damage on that one spell he's gonna spam all over day, it's really enough. Especially with Quickened if any need for nova.
I think it's in fact the best decision to make precisely because that Origin has very few affiliated spells, and those are usually DoT ones. With this choice, you don't strain yourself always using that one spell.

Metamagic choices? Well, Quicken is a bit costly, but of a fixed cost. Agreed that Empower could have been more suited, but Subtle is not a bad choice by far: now you are sure your Fireball will actually be launched even if there is a caster.

Seriously, this build is not optimized like the ones people here like to do, but it's not bad. Really not bad at all in fact: it just enforces the natural thematics that revolve around goblins (being sneaky, agile, mobile, playing with dangerous liquids) to create a Sorcerer that make a point of tackling every encounter by dashing around (possibly while hiding) to position himself as required to fit as many targets as possible in any given (Subtle if necessary) AOE.

Like, this character actually has some potential depth and fluff, contrarily to many optimized builds that in the end are like cookie-cutter builds because so similar, or built solely in relation with what the party needs up to the point of making any personality vanish.


Citan I agree we have different opinions on what is optimized and that is a good thing :) But unlike the other casters, sorcerer really don't have the luxury of of choosing one dimensional spells.

Yes you can do it, yes you can play a sub-optimal build, there is nothing wrong with that if you are in an RP heavy game, but there are tables where optimization matters as well. New players make the same mistake over and over, they come to these board with the wrong perception of the Sorcerer class, asking for the same advice. No other caster class has that problem, which I believe is the core problem with Sorcerers.

Choosing versatile spells allows the Sorcerer to be effective and creative. Choosing spells that are versatile and multi-purpose are key to having memorable and enjoyable experience. Some will call it optimization I just call it good advice and maximizing your fun.
(For the record Polymorph > than any other 4th level spells for Sorc ;) ).

WotC perpetuating terrible builds ...is well terrible and I also find it funny.

[Byke]

I'll bite yet again.
1) If alone in the party, Wizard has 44 spell known. Period. Any other spell is the courtesy of the DM, whatever way he grabs it.
2) Again, Sorcerer with his Metamagic has a special fluff, which goes with a specific mindset (exactly the same with Warlock, Wizard, Paladin etc): if you are not creative, you should not try to play a Sorcerer in the first place.
If you are creative, then just having Enhance Ability, Polymorph, Chromatic Orb, (Mass) Suggestion / Charm Person / Silent Image / Major Image, Shatter/Fireball/Chain Lightning would be enough to make you a very valuable asset to the party, whatever situation you are in. You still have 10 spells to play with, including the fact you can swap one for another as you progress...

Frankly, Wizards have many many more potential spells, but Sorcerer has the best ratio of "creative spells" of any spell list.

I agree with everything you said. Which takes me be back to Blight....It's an OK to great niche spell for a wizard, for those niche situations where you fight plant monsters. That said a Sorcerer should never take it as there are better more versatile spells on the sorcerer list that could have other applications than just a single target nuke.

[samcifer]

Is there a list or handbook somewhere online that goes over all the spells and says if they are bad or good or just good for a certain number of levels?

[Chugger]

Is there a list or handbook somewhere online that goes over all the spells and says if they are bad or good or just good for a certain number of levels?

Yes http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377491

Check the sorc guides and as many overlap w/ wiz and lock, you can cross ref those guides too.

[Byke]

Is there a list or handbook somewhere online that goes over all the spells and says if they are bad or good or just good for a certain number of levels?

There are many :)

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469126-GUIDE-Power-Overwhelming-A-Sorcerer-Guide

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?457552-How-to-Rend-Fiends-and-Immolate-People-A-Guide-to-Sorcery

TheUser has a guide on Sorcerers as well. Don't have the link handy but it's in his signature

I also recommend Treanmonk's guide to wizards as he goes over every spell in detail and the pro and cons of each.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IeOXWvbkmQ3nEyM2P3lS8TU4rsK6QJP0oH7HE_v67QY/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZHzEjiHvtDItZE2ixfoYwqi7brTO-ag8uBJndE5saro/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1THbYJ1Qb3pnAKB4K-Rx3Bsxx2vH4pm_NosDlTQ8vQRE/edit


All of them have some great advice, but you will really need to play test them yourself to decided if they are right or wrong :)