Creating a LA+1 dwarf race

[mbolis]

Hello everybody,

I'm trying to write a new dwarf race for my campaign, to replace the existing one.
I thought I'd make them LA+1, because in my setting they are seen as legendary creatures more than common folks.

Edit: I'm playing 3.5

Do you guys think the following changes will be ok from a balance (lol) standpoint?

+2 Strength in addition to the usual ability modifiers
Stonecunning gives +4 bonus instead of +2
The skill bonuses to Craft and Appraise are now equal to the character level
For the purposes of acquiring and using the feat Create Arms and Armor, the dwarf uses her character level as if it was her caster level


Cheers!

[zlefin]

is this for pathfinder or 3.5?
I know pathfinder has a whole system for designing races.

offhand, it looks like not quite enough to me; but I don't look at the la+1 stuff much to have a good comparison basis.

[mbolis]

It is for 3.5.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I am honestly not sure I would play this at +0. The only notable thing you have a have is a weaker version of a feature from a dwarf only PRC.

If you want +1 I would start by adding another +2 on Con. Net +2 and +4 abound at +0 so a +4 makes sense for a +1 LA, especially considering that there are +1s with +4 and +6 running around.

I would drop the massive skills bonuses. I have only ever seen Appraise used by Disciples of Mammon honestly since it generates a bunch more busy work for little benefit normally and Craft DCS tend not to get too high anyways but maybe the idea can be put to use.

The stone cunning increase is cute and is honestly something a dwarf can get anyways if they want.

The crafting magic stuff is very cool and dwarf-y though. Consider giving them a mechanic to fill in the requisite spells.

Throwing some stuff together:
Stats are +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Cha
Dwarf traits.
+2 to stonecunning.
Bonus on all craft checks = 1+1/2 character level.
SU: Treat character level as caster level for craft feats. Receive Arms and Armor ad a bonus feat and 5th and choice of Forge Ring or Craft Staff at 12. Can try to emulate a spell required for crafting a magic item by making a DC 10+3x spell level craft(any) check. Failure indicates that they cannot emulate that spell for that item and must provide it by some other means.

[Thurbane]

Hello everybody,

I'm trying to write a new dwarf race for my campaign, to replace the existing one.
I thought I'd make them LA+1, because in my setting they are seen as legendary creatures more than common folks.

Edit: I'm playing 3.5

Do you guys think the following changes will be ok from a balance (lol) standpoint?

+2 Strength in addition to the usual ability modifiers
Stonecunning gives +4 bonus instead of +2
The skill bonuses to Craft and Appraise are now equal to the character level
For the purposes of acquiring and using the feat Create Arms and Armor, the dwarf uses her character level as if it was her caster level


Cheers!

WotC would definitely give this an LA +1. Most Playgrounders would give it LA +0.

Compared to, say, Duergar, it's fine as LA +1. It all depends if you/your group wants to stick close to established official LAs, or undercut them for playability...

[ZamielVanWeber]

WotC would definitely give this an LA +1. Most Playgrounders would give it LA +0.

Compared to, say, Duergar, it's fine as LA +1. It all depends if you/your group wants to stick close to established official LAs, or undercut them for playability...

Lesser Planetouched are all officially +0 and some of them give crazy bonuses. Some anthropomorphic animals are crazy as well at +0 (although some have solid racial HD). Feral and Draconic are both +1 templates with pretty hefty bonuses. Official stuff exceeds this as well.

[Mike Miller]

I am honestly not sure I would play this at +0. The only notable thing you have a have is a weaker version of a feature from a dwarf only PRC.

If you want +1 I would start by adding another +2 on Con. Net +2 and +4 abound at +0 so a +4 makes sense for a +1 LA, especially considering that there are +1s with +4 and +6 running around.

I would drop the massive skills bonuses. I have only ever seen Appraise used by Disciples of Mammon honestly since it generates a bunch more busy work for little benefit normally and Craft DCS tend not to get too high anyways but maybe the idea can be put to use.

The stone cunning increase is cute and is honestly something a dwarf can get anyways if they want.

The crafting magic stuff is very cool and dwarf-y though. Consider giving them a mechanic to fill in the requisite spells.

Throwing some stuff together:
Stats are +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Cha
Dwarf traits.
+2 to stonecunning.
Bonus on all craft checks = 1+1/2 character level.
SU: Treat character level as caster level for craft feats. Receive Arms and Armor ad a bonus feat and 5th and choice of Forge Ring or Craft Staff at 12. Can try to emulate a spell required for crafting a magic item by making a DC 10+3x spell level craft(any) check. Failure indicates that they cannot emulate that spell for that item and must provide it by some other means.

I agree with this assessment of LA+1 except I would remove the -2 CHA simply because of the original post's statement that these creatures are "seen as legendary creatures"

[Psyren]

The easy way to add LA to a race works for dwarves too - spell resistance.



SU: Treat character level as caster level for craft feats. Receive Arms and Armor ad a bonus feat and 5th and choice of Forge Ring or Craft Staff at 12. Can try to emulate a spell required for crafting a magic item by making a DC 10+3x spell level craft(any) check. Failure indicates that they cannot emulate that spell for that item and must provide it by some other means.

I'd let them try again if they level up.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The easy way to add LA to a race works for dwarves too - spell resistance.



I'd let them try again if they level up.

I was unclear sorry: I meant for that individual item. So if they want to make a Ring of Freedom of Movement and flub the check then they need another way to get a casting of freedom of movement for that ring or accept the penalties for failure. The second ring they make would allow them to make the check again.

[animewatcha]

what about keeping 30 ft speed ( with the dwarf unhindered movement quality )? Powerful build? Ability to only count as dwarf when it favors dwarfs specifically ( charm humanoid would work, but dwarf bane would not )?

[Thurbane]

Lesser Planetouched are all officially +0 and some of them give crazy bonuses. Some anthropomorphic animals are crazy as well at +0 (although some have solid racial HD). Feral and Draconic are both +1 templates with pretty hefty bonuses. Official stuff exceeds this as well.

No disagreeing that there is some races that notably break the mold for balance at LA +0 (and you've cited the major offenders), but in general, WotC approach was to slap LA +1 on anything that even slightly varied from the norms. Look at Hobgoblin, the poster boy for LA bloat, for example.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Given how all over the place races are (goblin was considered acceptable at +0 and let us all weep for gnoll) I would not consider them to have any reasonable standard. I tend to aim for the more solid races as a balance point so players would be attracted to them. The big question is how badly do you want your players to use this +1 LA dwarf?

[mbolis]

I am honestly not sure I would play this at +0.

Even if we stick to core only?



Throwing some stuff together:
Stats are +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Cha
Dwarf traits.
+2 to stonecunning.
Bonus on all craft checks = 1+1/2 character level.
SU: Treat character level as caster level for craft feats. Receive Arms and Armor ad a bonus feat and 5th and choice of Forge Ring or Craft Staff at 12. Can try to emulate a spell required for crafting a magic item by making a DC 10+3x spell level craft(any) check. Failure indicates that they cannot emulate that spell for that item and must provide it by some other means.

I was being quite cautious with giving it bonus feats. One of the little voices in my head says that races shouldn't grant you feats at a level different from 1st. OTOH, the other little voice says that Craft A&A is a solid feat, yes, but not that game-breaking.


WotC would definitely give this an LA +1. Most Playgrounders would give it LA +0.

Compared to, say, Duergar, it's fine as LA +1. It all depends if you/your group wants to stick close to established official LAs, or undercut them for playability...

Actually I don't care for official LAs, I just need the race to be playable, yet not making me sorry halfway through the campaign because that player found a way to break it... :smallsmile:


I agree with this assessment of LA+1 except I would remove the -2 CHA simply because of the original post's statement that these creatures are "seen as legendary creatures"

Yes, but dwarves need be grumpy!


Given how all over the place races are (goblin was considered acceptable at +0 and let us all weep for gnoll) I would not consider them to have any reasonable standard. I tend to aim for the more solid races as a balance point so players would be attracted to them. The big question is how badly do you want your players to use this +1 LA dwarf?

That is an important question. I know one of my players is very fond of dwarves. On one side I don't want to disappoint him, making a race that is too weak. On the other side, though, I would love him playing something different, for a change (read: having that LA+1 make his choice a little bit hard)

[Elkad]

The regret for a too-powerful race doesn't come halfway through the game. Overdoing a LA+1 is apparent immediately, but doesn't matter by 7th.

LA+1 Dwarf.
As standard dwarf, with an additional
+2 con (+4 total)
Players choice of +2 Str or +2 Cha (offsetting the -2 Cha penalty, for a net +0)
Base move increased to 30, ignores armor/encumbrance penalties to movement speed for medium and heavy load, but can always only run at x3 speed (x4 with Run feat)
Racial bonuses vs poison, spells, and spell-likes are at the greater of +2 or +Conmod

And probably some extra fluff items. Better Darkvision, or +½CL to Craft checks or something.

[mbolis]

The regret for a too-powerful race doesn't come halfway through the game. Overdoing a LA+1 is apparent immediately, but doesn't matter by 7th.


Uhm... true


LA+1 Dwarf.
As standard dwarf, with an additional
+2 con (+4 total)
Players choice of +2 Str or +2 Cha (offsetting the -2 Cha penalty, for a net +0)
Base move increased to 30, ignores armor/encumbrance penalties to movement speed for medium and heavy load, but can always only run at x3 speed (x4 with Run feat)
Racial bonuses vs poison, spells, and spell-likes are at the greater of +2 or +Conmod

And probably some extra fluff items. Better Darkvision, or +½CL to Craft checks or something.

You ditched the stuff about item creation, which I really liked, what do you think of it?

[ATHATH]

Isn't there already a Dwarven race that can create magic items that they shouldn't be able to? I remember it being discussed in E6-related threads.

[Thurbane]

Isn't there already a Dwarven race that can create magic items that they shouldn't be able to? I remember it being discussed in E6-related threads.

The only one I'm aware of is Midgard Dwarf, but with 8RHD and +4 LA, I don't think this would have been mentioned in E6 threads. Maybe there's another?

[Elkad]

You ditched the stuff about item creation, which I really liked, what do you think of it?

That counts as fluff. Throw it in if you want. Many players aren't interested in crafting anyway, or are already a full caster.
So it's a small donation to the mundane classes, who probably need it anyway.

[mbolis]

Can try to emulate a spell required for crafting a magic item by making a DC 10+3x spell level craft(any) check. Failure indicates that they cannot emulate that spell for that item and must provide it by some other means.

What about this instead: for each level, a dwarf chooses one cleric spell from the list appropriate to her current character level. From now on, she is considered as knowing this spell for the purposes of item creation only.
(is the wording clear enough, by the way?)

[ZamielVanWeber]

What about this instead: for each level, a dwarf chooses one cleric spell from the list appropriate to her current character level. From now on, she is considered as knowing this spell for the purposes of item creation only.
(is the wording clear enough, by the way?)

Mem. It would give them a very narrow ability to make items. At that point the feature does not feel to be worth the book keeping.