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Rfkannen
2017-08-22, 06:12 PM
Howdy!

So for the next game the gm said that for the next game anything that you would consider "fantasy" will be allowed, and she will work with the players to make it. The only other requirement is that it would have to make sense that it would be in an adventurers guild in a fantasy setting (since the campaign takes place in one)


Since we mostly use dungeons and dragons 5e, I decided it would be fun to play a concept that wouldn't work in that system, but also not something completely ridiculous (ie no kaiju). So I was wondering if you guys had any ideas for what kind of fantasy characters can't work in 5th edition D&d that might be worth trying out.


The game is going to be based off of savage worlds btw. Game will mostly be dungeon crawls.

Knaight
2017-08-22, 07:38 PM
Savage Worlds as a system does really well with large group combats, and thus handles concepts where troops/summons are fairly central much better than 5e. I'd go with something along those lines, as many of the other concepts 5e doesn't do are inappropriate for a dungeon crawl anyways.

Jay R
2017-08-22, 08:11 PM
Go read your favorite books, watch your favorite movies, and think about your favorite characters.

Aragorn, Frodo, Gollum, Lucy Pevensey, Reepicheep, Puddleglum, Taran, Eilonwy, Gurgi, Inigo Montoya, Tarzan, Commander Vimes, Captain Carrot, Granny Weatherwax, Wee Mad Arthur, Daenerys, Jon Snow, Arya, Prince Oberyn, Sparrowhawk, Scar Gordon, Star, a Lensman, Shadowjack, Corwin of Amber, Don Quixote, Hank Morgan, Michael Valentine Smith, Peter Pan, Bugs Bunny, the Beast, Roger Rabbit, Shrek, Crocodile Dundee.

[No, don’t play that character. Use that character as an idea to build your cool character on.]

If it were me, I’d be trying to choose between a Narnian Mouse, one of the Nac Mac Feegle, a Discworld witch, a Lensman, or a Prince of Amber.

The challenging – perhaps impossible – trick is finding somebody who is both a fantasy concept that wouldn't work in that system and one that would make sense in an adventurers guild, since as far as I know the adventurer’s guild is one of the uniquely D&D aspects.

Rfkannen
2017-08-22, 08:22 PM
Savage Worlds as a system does really well with large group combats, and thus handles concepts where troops/summons are fairly central much better than 5e. I'd go with something along those lines, as many of the other concepts 5e doesn't do are inappropriate for a dungeon crawl anyways.

That would be interesting, 5e really doesn't do summoners well even, let alone generals, so it would be cool to try that out.

I didnt knoe savage worlds could do thst typr of characatrt well, how would you do it? Just take the beast master edge and refluff it as a fire elemental or something, or is there a different way to make that kinda character?

Haldir
2017-08-23, 12:03 AM
There's no fantasy concept that won't work in 5e except "powergamed beyond the reckoning of the other players"

If you want that i recommend Pathfinder.

Bogwoppit
2017-08-23, 03:11 AM
There's no fantasy concept that won't work in 5e except "powergamed beyond the reckoning of the other players"

If you want that i recommend Pathfinder.
And thus began the thousandth year of the Edition Wars. :(

I question why you would want to deliberately bring a character concept to the table that isn't supported by the game system. That seems needlessly annoying to me, as if you're not interested in playing the game so much as you want to make things hard for your GM.

Anyway, to answer the OP question: Thomas Covenant - a man from modern America, transported to a magical Land that he actively disbelieves, who has an uncontrolled magic power, but no agency to use it. He just about learns control by the end of the series, but mainly his successes are down to his choices, not his interventions.

Beneath
2017-08-23, 03:36 AM
Someone for whom creating magical effects is just doing stuff rather than something they can run out of (like, most magic characters in fantasy literature don't "run out" of their magic; if they can't cast the same spell again it's not because they're out of juice (except on Erf) it's because the spell cost something real that they don't have. for the most part mages in literature just know how to do things other people would describe as impossible). D&D3 has one class that does this out of many, D&D5 does not

An atheist healer who does not have any abilities that are in-world considered trappings of clergy. Not someone who has those abilities and doesn't use them. Similarly, a dark magic healer akin to Darkest Dungeon's Occultist (though I daresay you can't do, say, the Plague Doctor, either. or the Antiquarian. Not without a really big shoehorn, cutting off big chunks of the character, and grafting on a bunch of things that don't fit)

A NetHack-style tourist (https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Tourist) wouldn't be part of an adventurer's guild, but 5e can't do that as a playable character either

D&D's rules for playing as monsters of any kind (unicorns, dragons, demons, genies) have always sucked and there's always been demand. On that topic, a werewolf or similar transformation-focused character (I think there was one druid variant that had that + full druid casting in 2e). There's a 3e magical girl class on this site because 3e didn't do that well, and that's 3e which is in an era of coming up with weird classes for specific concepts and is a very mature system (contrast 5e, no material for which is more than a couple years old); a werewolf would be even more transformation-based

On that topic, a bunch of the weirder 3e classes still haven't been ported over to 5e. Binder is a popularly-demanded one. You could pick any fantasy-ish system and pick whatever their weird magic is and ask to bring in someone who uses that and odds are it'll be un-D&D-ish enough that any existing class will be a rough model at best (try a Final Fantasy-style Blue Mage, for instance, or a specifically FF8-style paramagic user. though nobody actually liked that system)

Someone who has the minecraft character's ability to: take down a tree with their bare hands. Assemble a pickaxe from the wood. Break a cubic meter of stone down with that pickaxe in seconds. Carry several hundred cubic meters of stone in their pocket like it's nothing. Build with that stone quickly enough that they can climb by building a pillar under their feet (tradeoff: everyone else is way better than you at fighting and magic)

Recherché
2017-08-23, 04:07 AM
Someone who's magic is bound up in crafting; the cook who's so good his dishes are potions or a seamstress who can make silk as strong as steel.

Herobizkit
2017-08-23, 05:18 AM
https://static.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/51ce6099e4b0d911b4489b79/51ce61dfe4b0d911b44a4112/1370731949743/1000w/963_max.jpgThis, or switch the roles of familiar and wizard, or an animal druid who can shift into humanoid forms a few times a day.

Jay R
2017-08-23, 08:03 AM
I question why you would want to deliberately bring a character concept to the table that isn't supported by the game system.

Because that's the intended purpose of this game. The GM specifically said that "for the next game anything that you would consider "fantasy" will be allowed, and she will work with the players to make it."


That seems needlessly annoying to me, as if you're not interested in playing the game so much as you want to make things hard for your GM.

I agree that doing this to an unsuspecting Gm would be needlessly annoying and making things hard. But that's not the case. In this game, the player is doing exactly what the GM asked for. She wants to meet this challenge.

KarlMarx
2017-08-23, 08:20 AM
As has already been said, animals with human mentalities/emotions are difficult in 5e, as is basically any character dependent on ordering NPCs or monsters around (summoner, 'general', etc.)

Stereotypical witch, hedge wizard, or 'wise man' who knows a little magic supplemented by a lot of skill at herbalism, woodcraft, etc. is also difficult.

Revenants and other undead PCs can't really exist under the current ruleset without homebrew.

Joe the Rat
2017-08-23, 10:37 AM
Anyway, to answer the OP question: Thomas Covenant - a man from modern America, transported to a magical Land that he actively disbelieves, who has an uncontrolled magic power, but no agency to use it. He just about learns control by the end of the series, but mainly his successes are down to his choices, not his interventions.

Wild Magic Sorcerer with the Far Traveler background covers most of the bases, though you'd need to clear having a wearable as an arcane focus with the DM.

Non-humanoid sentient is probably the hardest to pull off without tweaking rules.

Knaight
2017-08-23, 10:40 AM
I question why you would want to deliberately bring a character concept to the table that isn't supported by the game system. That seems needlessly annoying to me, as if you're not interested in playing the game so much as you want to make things hard for your GM.

Reread the first post - they aren't playing 5e, they're playing Savage Worlds. The concepts being looked for are those that work in SW but don't work in 5e.

Arbane
2017-08-23, 01:21 PM
There's no fantasy concept that won't work in 5e except "powergamed beyond the reckoning of the other players"

If you want that i recommend Pathfinder.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

Fantasy concepts D&D 5th can't do? Let's see:

The World's Luckiest Man
A swashbuckler? How well does 5th ed handle lightly-armored swordfighters?
A Persona-User. (Amusingly, a Binder might work for this.)
Flowey the Flower
sans
The Green Knight of Arthurian legend (Reattached his own severed head as a stunt)
Sir Gawain of Arthurian legend (Got stronger or weaker depending on the time of day)
Shiro from Fate/Stay Night
Pretty much anyone from RWBY
A 'Annelidist' from Tenra Bansho Zero (they get (yucky) powers from symbiotic worms in their bodies)
Prince Corwin of Amber, or any of his siblings
Goliath & family from Gargoyles.
Wizards from the anime Fairy Tale
The White Rose from the Black Company novels (mute peasant girl with an antimagic aura)
The main characters from Magic Knight Rayearth, with or without mecha.
One of seven Chinese brothers from a story I read as a kid - he had the power to drink a lake dry all by himself. (The only other brothers I remember were one who could stretch his arms and legs, and one who couldn't be burned.)
An Architectomancer - someone with magic powers around creating, distorting, and manipulating buildings and parts of buildings, and THAT'S ALL.
Pretty much any player character from the following RPGs: (Probably too high on the power-scale not to be ridiculous)
Exalted
Nobilis
Legends of the Wulin
Feng Shui's supernatural contingent (Or even the cyborg gorillas)
Any other White Wolf game (hey, urban fantasy is still fantasy)
Costume Fairy Adventures (not too powerful, just ridiculous)

How well any of these would work in Savage Worlds I couldn't say - although I was in a homebrew attempt at Savage RWBY that I thought had potential.

Cluedrew
2017-08-23, 02:07 PM
I have a character called Vicetory (like Victory but with a hard-'i' sound... and the c is more an s I guess) who I described as the weirdest character I could see someone playing in a role-playing game as. Some notes:
Immortal: Does not age and cannot be killed, if Vicetory world be killed the substance that makes up its body disperses and reforms later. Usually a day or two, but sever damage can lengthen the time that takes.
Body masks: Can create these fake bodies and wear them around. Can keep some in within itself and wear and take off those at will. Well there is a ritual to it, but it just takes a few seconds.
Flight: Has wings that it can use to fly around. Also does not tire so can fly for as long as needed.
Creation: Can create small bits of matter as tools and weapons.
All of these would be rather hard to pull off as core concepts in a D&D 5e character.

Also, things that involve followers don't tend to work in D&D so well. Nor would the guilds "spy" (gets information for the others) get much support in that system. Actually almost anything that doesn't involve direct combat is already starting to stretch it.

Lets go crazy, someone who can turn their body into a different substance (might be a bit superheroish, but I think you can flavour it to fit). How about a liminal mage who draws power from transitions? Dusk and dawn, the changing of years, a threshold into a building, the boarder between two countries.

Arbane
2017-08-23, 03:17 PM
Also, things that involve followers don't tend to work in D&D so well. Nor would the guilds "spy" (gets information for the others) get much support in that system. Actually almost anything that doesn't involve direct combat is already starting to stretch it.

Ironic, given that having a squad of cannon fodder hirelings was a popular strategy in O/AD&D days.


Lets go crazy, someone who can turn their body into a different substance (might be a bit superheroish, but I think you can flavour it to fit). How about a liminal mage who draws power from transitions? Dusk and dawn, the changing of years, a threshold into a building, the boarder between two countries.

More for the list: Any Touhou character. Also, Bayonetta.
Any PC from Unknown Armies (not too powerful, just f*cked up)

Wasn't there a class in 3.5 that could get different powers by wearing masks? That seems like a nifty idea I'm pretty sure 5th doesn't do.

ElChad
2017-08-24, 07:04 AM
Go with a pirate who has a magical cannon for an arm!
A living intelligent weapon that can float.
A man that is actually a swarm of insects hive minded into sentience
Living Scarecrow and or Tin Man

Altair_the_Vexed
2017-08-24, 07:15 AM
OP might want to update the thread title, cause it took me a couple of re-throughs to understand that the request is for Savage Worlds characters that couldn't be made with D&D 5e.

As I have no deep experience with either system (but plenty with other D&D systems, hence coming here at all), I'll leave you fellows to it.

weckar
2017-08-24, 07:31 AM
A researcher, an actual spy, an administrator, a medic... Basically anyone who does not fight and has no ability to do so is a poor fit for D&D.

Arbane
2017-08-24, 02:59 PM
A researcher, an actual spy, an administrator, a medic... Basically anyone who does not fight and has no ability to do so is a poor fit for D&D.

They'd probably be a bad fit in Savage Worlds, too.

Knaight
2017-08-24, 03:21 PM
They'd probably be a bad fit in Savage Worlds, too.

They can work in Savage Worlds, but they won't fly in a dungeon crawl so they're still out.

Velaryon
2017-08-28, 12:59 PM
I have no experience with Savage Worlds, but I can come up with one big thing that D&D struggles to model well: generalist characters, or Jack of All Trades types.

D&D tends to reward specialization (5e not as much as 3.X, but it's still a thing). So characters with a broad variety of things they're good at, especially without being a spell-caster.

Lvl 2 Expert
2017-08-28, 01:07 PM
A person who's power is in subtle and long term manipulation of emotions, maybe with some predictive and/or mind reading powers thrown in. She can steer peoples lives by making them fall in love with the wrong person at the right time, she can destroy companies by giving the CEO a really bad lingering feeling about the CFO, she can turn people into successful prophets, who speak about the weirdest things yet are adored by their flock, but she couldn't stop a charging orc if her life depended on it.

Rfkannen
2017-08-28, 03:46 PM
I have no experience with Savage Worlds, but I can come up with one big thing that D&D struggles to model well: generalist characters, or Jack of All Trades types.

D&D tends to reward specialization (5e not as much as 3.X, but it's still a thing). So characters with a broad variety of things they're good at, especially without being a spell-caster.

Actually that type of character seems to work very well from what I've seen of savage worlds. From what I have seen from optimization guides, one of the best aproaches for character creation is putting a 6 in every stat and put 1 rank in as many skills as you can get.

Tinkerer
2017-08-28, 04:28 PM
Yep, the generalist, the summoner/NPC herder, the unique mage/psychic/tinkerer/monk (GM dependent but the fact that there is a built in method of creating a unique school of magic is nice), build a race is nice but again check with the GM. When comparing a system which encourages custom content (Powers and Races) to one that doesn't when you ask what you can do the answer is... a lot. If you want to play as someone who's fly spell is they shout "EAGLE" at the sky and a giant eagle swoops down and picks them up that's technically doable. I would recommend http://www.godwars2.org/SavageWorlds/ if you want a slightly more codified method of dealing with them. But this is one of those cases where make sure you know the tone of the campaign so you don't bring sadist powers to a happy go lucky game or vice versa. Another option is a child, nearest I know technically I don't think that D&D allows that (does it still have minimum starting ages?).

The Fury
2017-08-30, 03:49 PM
Funnily enough, there's a type of character that seems to appear fairly commonly in D&D-inspired works but seems pretty tricky to pull off in D&D itself. For lack of a better description, I've been calling them "brawler" characters. Characters like Finn the Human from Adventure Time or Percedal Sadlygrove from Wakfu. While these characters do have melee weapons, and they are pretty good with them, they fight unarmed often and do almost as well that way. I consider this concept different from the Monk class in that fighting unarmed seems secondary to these characters, while it seems primary to Monks.

In most editions of D&D that I'm familiar with, you can have a melee weapon and be competent with it, but as soon as you put it down you're just some chump. You can sort of mitigate the issue with multiclassing but you're going to have a rough time trying to play this concept from level 1. Maybe it's different in 5e? I don't know, I've never played it.

Xuc Xac
2017-08-30, 07:48 PM
I have a character called Vicetory (like Victory but with a hard-'i' sound... and the c is more an s I guess) who I described as the weirdest character I could see someone playing in a role-playing game as. Some notes:

Immortal: Does not age and cannot be killed, if Vicetory world be killed the substance that makes up its body disperses and reforms later. Usually a day or two, but sever damage can lengthen the time that takes.
Body masks: Can create these fake bodies and wear them around. Can keep some in within itself and wear and take off those at will. Well there is a ritual to it, but it just takes a few seconds.
Flight: Has wings that it can use to fly around. Also does not tire so can fly for as long as needed.
Creation: Can create small bits of matter as tools and weapons.

All of these would be rather hard to pull off as core concepts in a D&D 5e character.


In Eclipse Phase, that's not even slightly weird. In fact, it's fairly standard.

Cluedrew
2017-09-01, 07:53 AM
And Eclipse Phase just moved up a slot on my "RPGs I want to play some day" list again. Actually, knowing the people I play with, I might be better off adapting the setting to a rules light system then teaching them Eclipse Phase itself. Its rules medium as I recall, but I have yet to play it so I'm not sure.

Dr_Dinosaur
2017-09-02, 09:40 PM
The brawler character described above is represented fairly well by the various armed monk archetypes or, funnily enough, the Brawler

Anyone speccing into Leadership (or a Broodmaster Summoner if you don't mind summoning the npcs) can be an NPC Wrangler, as can the Thrallherd. While generally considered a subpar PrC for not progressing casting, the Noble Scion is pretty good for this since it gets improved Leadership, a second cohort, and loads of money to throw around

Slipperychicken
2017-09-08, 10:00 AM
A leader with great personal magnetism, intuitive understanding of tactics and organization, and great fighting ability. All of these inspire fierce loyalty and great deeds from his soldiers, even as the leader commands them with exceeding skill.

5th edition dnd as it exists does not adequately support the idea because it lacks comprehensive rules for hirelings, leadership, morale, and NPC interaction.

wumpus
2017-09-08, 11:28 AM
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

Fantasy concepts D&D 5th can't do? Let's see:

The World's Luckiest Man
Prince Corwin of Amber, or any of his siblings


"Luckiest Man": 5e could easily modify that to "always has advantage", or at least "one advantage class higher than normal" and include 'roll three times' for advantage. Good luck not outshining any less lucky character in the party. Might work for solo play.
You could make a "Scions of Amber" party. Princes of Amber are pretty much "extraordinary people" (PCs should suffice) with the native ability to plane shift (to the plane of their choice. And all they have to do is imagine the plane the want and they will pretty much find it) as long as they can move and see. There also exist a special magic items they can use (the Trumps). Don't allow "princes of chaos" in any setting with much in the way of magic items (or assume that their "grab any item" ability doesn't work for magic items).

In practice, either none or all players have to be Princes of Amber. If they all are, expect the "evil party problem" ("I trusted him like a brother" - Corwin of Amber). Also your opposition is likely also a Prince, and you better not kill him.

An ancient (1e era) Dragon magazine had a "three cheers for Beowulf" that statted out three different Beowulfs for AD&D with three wildly different power levels. These things are hardly cut and dried.

JBPuffin
2017-09-08, 11:59 AM
"Luckiest Man": 5e could easily modify that to "always has advantage", or at least "one advantage class higher than normal" and include 'roll three times' for advantage. Good luck not outshining any less lucky character in the party. Might work for solo play.
You could make a "Scions of Amber" party. Princes of Amber are pretty much "extraordinary people" (PCs should suffice) with the native ability to plane shift (to the plane of their choice. And all they have to do is imagine the plane the want and they will pretty much find it) as long as they can move and see. There also exist a special magic items they can use (the Trumps). Don't allow "princes of chaos" in any setting with much in the way of magic items (or assume that their "grab any item" ability doesn't work for magic items).

In practice, either none or all players have to be Princes of Amber. If they all are, expect the "evil party problem" ("I trusted him like a brother" - Corwin of Amber). Also your opposition is likely also a Prince, and you better not kill him.

An ancient (1e era) Dragon magazine had a "three cheers for Beowulf" that statted out three different Beowulfs for AD&D with three wildly different power levels. These things are hardly cut and dried.

As it stands, 5e doesn't do these thing already, just as they don't already do a summoner, an army-builder, and some of the other stuff mentioned. You can homebrew that stuff all you want, but it doesn't change what the official books offer, and i think that's the focus of this thread: what isn't on the books that Savage Worlds could do well?

I'll add single-elemental mage, since various elements are just trappings and can both have and not have a mechanical effect, depending on DM preference. 5e spell lists don't have enough spells yet to do the concept full justice, although I suspect that will hänge with those...