The ICC and Hel

[Hiro Quester]

Back in #668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) the Interfiend Cooperation Commission mention they have a plan for the five two gates. It will garner them enough power to make killing five good dragons for every one Varsuvius killed with the familicide spell, a "trivial" task.

They say they want conflict. Unnecessarily destructive conflict.

But that seems to be a side-benefit. Their major aim is to snatch V at times that interfere with OOTSs ability to protect the gates.

Has anyone figured out what they are likely to want?

Are they going to piggyback on Zykon's plan?

We haven't seen them since Hel put her plan into place, have we?

How does this interact with Hel's plan? Would they also oppose Hel, or help her out?

[MesiDoomstalker]

ICC specifically wants no one winning. We know they don't want OOTS to win because then the conflict ends. They don't want Xykon to win because then the conflict ends (or is delayed by some margin they aren't happy with). Is probable, I think, they doesn't want Hel to win either. But of course we don't know anything specific. They've been very shady about what their goals are to begin with.

[dtilque]

Nitpick: It's the IFCC, not the ICC. The latter used to be a government agency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Commerce_Commission)

[Mad Humanist]

Back in #668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) the Interfiend Cooperation Commission mention they have a plan for the five two gates. It will garner them enough power to make killing five good dragons for every one Varsuvius killed with the familicide spell, a "trivial" task.

They say they want conflict. Unnecessarily destructive conflict.

We know that Tiamat knows about the IFCC and has this commitment from them. We also know that the Western Pantheon voted for destroying the world. I am not sure this facts align. But I have faith in the Giant.

[Kardwill]

The IFCC wants to do something with the gates. Hel wants to destroy the world, and build a new one where the gates won't exist anymore (that was the term of the vote : destroy the world before it blows up, and rebuild it better, faster, stron without those flaws). I don't think they'll help each other

[zimmerwald1915]

Nitpick: It's the IFCC, not the ICC. The latter used to be a government agency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Commerce_Commission)
Also any number of other things (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICC).

[TheNecrocomicon]

Nitpick: It's the IFCC, not the ICC. The latter used to be a government agency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Commerce_Commission)

Also any number of other things (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICC).

There are worse ways to mess up the acronym, though, at least it wasn't the freakin' FCC (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeg4J8yNk4g). :smalltongue:

[Caldman]

We know that Tiamat knows about the IFCC and has this commitment from them. We also know that the Western Pantheon voted for destroying the world. I am not sure this facts align. But I have faith in the Giant.

Piggy-backing off this thought- It seems like the IFCC isn't working directly for any of the evil gods, at least not so far as we've seen. Tiamat seems to be aware of them, but not directly in league with them. I imagine they have a similar arrangement with most deities.

EDIT: Added an important word, based on a comment made below. Woops!

[georgie_leech]

Piggy-backing off this thought- It seems like the IFCC isn't working directly any of the evil gods, at least not so far as we've seen. Tiamat seems to be aware of them, but not directly in league with them. I imagine they have a similar arrangement with most deities.

Worth noting that "aware of" and "aware of goals" are two distinct things. One can be aware of a group composed of members of the different lower planes without also knowing that they intend some shenaniganry with the Gates.

[Mad Humanist]

Tiamat seems to be aware of them, but not directly in league with them. I imagine they have a similar arrangement with most deities.


Aren't we also aware of a certain non-compete agreement?

[Kish]

Piggy-backing off this thought- It seems like the IFCC isn't working directly any of the evil gods, at least not so far as we've seen.
That's a significantly different sentence depending on whether the missing word is "with" or "for."

[JennTora]

My best guess is still that they're hoping the gods will end up fighting again so that they'll empower the snarl further when it escapes and the snarl will then wipe out most or all of the gods. Since the gods really can't do anything about the snarl other than reseal it, this could even be a goal that spans a number of world cycles. It fits with their vaguely stated desire for destructive conflict, and on a plot level it fits with hel's statement about needing to follow odin's rules or at least not be the first to break them, which seems likely to be foreshadowing about future conflict between the gods.

[Free Radical]

Could they even be directly working with Hel? If Hel wins, they'd keep their promise to Tiamat about killing good dragons as a side-effect of their plan. Depending on how many souls they'd get during the destruction of the world by the gods, they could get significant power just by doing that, even apart from whatever promises they might have extracted from Hel for their cooperation.

[Mad Humanist]

Could they even be directly working with Hel? If Hel wins, they'd keep their promise to Tiamat about killing good dragons as a side-effect of their plan. Depending on how many souls they'd get during the destruction of the world by the gods, they could get significant power just by doing that, even apart from whatever promises they might have extracted from Hel for their cooperation.


Something odd about Tiamat's demand just struck me. Killing all those good dragons would give a lot of souls to the Good gods (perhaps the Southern dragon). Why would Tiamat want that?

[Peelee]

Something odd about Tiamat's demand just struck me. Killing all those good dragons would give a lot of souls to the Good gods (perhaps the Southern dragon). Why would Tiamat want that?

A large percentage of something is not the same as a large amount of something. Tiamat, for instance, likely gained far less power than Hel would have gained had Familicide been cast on a dwarf. Same for Bahamut. Dragons are not a particularly abundant species (relatively, of course).

[hroþila]

Also, Tiamat wasn't thinking in terms of an end of the world scenario and perhaps neither she nor the other gods had any particular use for such a sudden influx of soul power unless she had reason to believe she'd be building a new world soon. Maybe the strategic considerations of increasing the ratio of evil to good dragons in this world was thus a more pressing matter for her.

[Free Radical]

Something odd about Tiamat's demand just struck me. Killing all those good dragons would give a lot of souls to the Good gods (perhaps the Southern dragon). Why would Tiamat want that?
I don't think familicide is in the same magnitude as ending the world for souls gained, but taking swift revenge for the deaths of the black dragons over a calculated cost-benefit of how it tilts power balances among the gods would seem like something that could believably happen even if it was.

[Kish]

Hel should be thought of as an anomaly in focusing solely on dead souls, as she can't have live worshipers. Her attitude should not be taken as suggesting that "I want all my worshipers dead and all my enemies' worshipers alive" is some kind of default god position.

[Quebbster]

Didn't Darth V estimate the Familicide wiped out a quarter of the population? Meaning Tiamat's worshippers were decimated ("quartered"?) but there's still a sizeable population left...
And yes, most gods probably prefer their worshippers alive and spreading their influence. They'll die soon enough and can provide soul power then.

[Gift Jeraff]

Didn't Darth V estimate the Familicide wiped out a quarter of the population? Meaning Tiamat's worshippers were decimated ("quartered"?) but there's still a sizeable population left...
And yes, most gods probably prefer their worshippers alive and spreading their influence. They'll die soon enough and can provide soul power then.

Black dragons are only about 1/5th of the chromatic dragon population. Add in kobolds and I imagine Tiamat's worship base is still one of the largest.

[JennTora]

A large percentage of something is not the same as a large amount of something. Tiamat, for instance, likely gained far less power than Hel would have gained had Familicide been cast on a dwarf.

Why would hel necessarily get all those souls?

Thor: they clearly died in a surprise battle against an enemy they had no hope of defending against. A giant pink lightning bolt!

[Peelee]

Why would hel necessarily get all those souls?

Thor: they clearly died in a surprise battle against an enemy they had no hope of defending against. A giant pink lightning bolt!

Name's changed, point's the same.

[Dr.Zero]

A random thought not backed by anything in particular, but a single strip (which was anyway there for comedy) and maybe, stretching it a bit, by the existence of the demigods and the Dark One.

If Banjo, the demigods and the Dark One get (some of their) power from people who believe in them, then it is possible that their beliefs have a similar "recharging power" both if they are alive or dead.

So for most gods a living follower is better, since when they die (for Word of God) they eventually are anyway consumed as a battery, eventually merging with the plane they belong, thus the power coming from the lives they live is a surplus on that final power the god is anyway going to get when they die. The more they live, the greater the surplus.

Therefore for almost all of the gods, in the long run, the more a god's follower lives, the more energy that god gets. Thus the gods want their followers to live as long as possible. And, on the converse, the less an enemy god's follower lives, the less energy that enemy god gets, in the long run. Thus them being generally ok with killing the followers of an enemy god.

Making it clearer with a simple formula:
100 years of beliefs and prayers + one soul at the end > 10 years of beliefs and prayer + that same soul at the end

The only single exception being Hel, because she has no living follower.

[Free Radical]

The only single exception being Hel, because she has no living follower.
The souls falling into the clutches of the ICC (and piling up in their inbox) are surely exceptions too - V has talked about "being damned to the lower planes" by actions, so they'd still get anyone they have a claim on if the world ended.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The souls falling into the clutches of the ICC (and piling up in their inbox) are surely exceptions too - V has talked about "being damned to the lower planes" by actions, so they'd still get anyone they have a claim on if the world ended.

No, they are not exceptions. The ICC are not gods - they don't derive their power from those souls. It's just their regular job to classify those souls - to ensure they arrived to the right plane, just like the Deva did with Roy. They would not get any more powerful due to an influx of souls if the world was ended by the gods.

Grey Wolf

[Riftwolf]

Could they even be directly working with Hel?

Probably not? I'm pretty sure the IFCC were telling the truth when they told Qarr their motive: to promote endless, pointless conflict. I don't think they've any more idea about what's through the gate than anyone at this point, but they recognise a prize to be fought over when they see one. If the world was to end, it would mean they'd have to start from scratch with whatever plan they had to tip the balance against the Angels. But so long as the world teeters on the brink, there'll be chaos and conflict.
Also let's face it, Hels a losing horse to bet on.