Why does no one have good (or any) Mesmerist Builds? (Pathfinder)

[Lawful GM]

You never really see any at all in PFS or online. Why is that?

[Eldariel]

You never really see any at all in PFS or online. Why is that?

Too many classes, it's from a rather obscure source and in no ways that iconic. That said, it does get played and there's a decent handbook even (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vGa7fsHbvWNTgPlKlEBJfRYE_vHNKt7dpJHUwiAv4f0/edit#heading=h.9b4mtf966pax).

[Gnaeus]

I've got a mesmerist 8/witch 1 I built for a game that I'm pretty proud of, but it's not for public until after Labor Day. I'll post it then.

[ArendK]

It's a solid class. Nothing exceptionally strong or weak about it, as it's a great buff/face chasis that doesn't require being a bard.

[Psyren]

It's a solid class, but there is stigma against builds that focus on "mind-affecting" as a schtick because so many monster types are immune or resistant to that. Obviously the Mesmerist has things it can do against insusceptible foes too, but many don't investigate it beyond that as a result.

[Sagetim]

It's a solid class, but there is stigma against builds that focus on "mind-affecting" as a schtick because so many monster types are immune or resistant to that. Obviously the Mesmerist has things it can do against insusceptible foes too, but many don't investigate it beyond that as a result.

To make the most of your mind affecting build, be neutral of some flavor (Like Lawful, or True Neutral). That way the very simple spells of Protection from Evil (Good, Law, Chaos) don't apply against you. Then proceed to focus down hard on in-city adventures and political intrigue as much as possible to try and get more 'regular people with class levels' opponents and less 'monsters that are straight up immune without trying' opponents.

That said, you'll want to leverage your way around opponents who are immune to your mind affects, so if you can find something else that your character can do or another way to approach the problem when your mind affects are zeroed out by immunities, then you won't be left sitting around feeling like your character can't do anything that they do well (or, maybe shooting a crossbow).

[Florian]

It´s the "Anti-Bard". Solid class design, you can take nearly any bard guide and instantly apply most of it to the Mesmerist, but you need the right group to fully utilize it. That can be problematic for PFS and apparently, "group building" seems to be a strange idea for a lot of people, even for home games.
So, while you can create and talk about solo-tactics Mesmerists, that´s not where this class shines and you rarely see discussions about party synergies.

[CharonsHelper]

As a dip for Urogue - the Enigma archetype would be rather nice, especially aiming for Moonlight Stalker Feint.


Then proceed to focus down hard on in-city adventures and political intrigue as much as possible to try and get more 'regular people with class levels' opponents and less 'monsters that are straight up immune without trying' opponents.


Actually - that's one of the main reasons to play a Mesmerist rather than another enchanter.


Psychic Inception: The hypnotic stare and its penalty can affect creatures that are mindless or immune to mind-affecting effects (such as an undead or vermin). The mesmerist can also partially affect such a creature with his mind-affecting spells and abilities if it’s under the effect of his hypnotic stare; it gains a +2 bonus on its saving throw (if any), and if affected, it still has a 50% chance each round of ignoring the effect. Ignoring the effect doesn’t end the effect, but does allow the creature to act normally for that round.

It should be the first Bold Stare that Mesmerists should grab at level 3.

Still annoying, but those things commonly have horrible will saves, so it's not too terrible, and definitely better than other enchanters get.

[Gnaeus]

It should be the first Bold Stare that Mesmerists should grab at level 3.

Still annoying, but those things commonly have horrible will saves, so it's not too terrible, and definitely better than other enchanters get.

Related side question. Is an intimidate check a mind affecting ability? I would think yes, especially if it is being used through the mesmeric stare via intimidating glance feat. But I can't find good RAW definitions.

[Ciolfire]

Since you add modifiers on saves against fear to resiste Intimidate, it's not much of a stretch to state that it's a fear effect.
And then...

All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects

[Psyren]

"Intimidate is a mind-affecting fear effect." (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm&sort=4#v5748eaic9svt)

[Gnaeus]

I figured it was an effect. I wasn't sure it was an ability

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I'm pretty fond of Vizier Mesmerist/Enchanting Courtesan and Enigma Mesmerist/Umbral Agent (VMC Loss subdomain Cleric) as builds myself. The first is amazing at casting and manipulating in a social situation because you have multiple ways to disguise it, while the second is basically impossible to see/remember at higher levels.

Eyebiter with Hand's Detachment is funny too. You become a Handbiter instead!

[lord pringle]

I've run a half-orc mesmerist focused on two handed melee with a falchion and I've found her very effective, especially since you start being able to neutralize encounters. Getting to hold person/coup-de-grace a giant that was CR 12 when we were a level five party was especially fun. The painful stare boosts start to add up over time since, unlike a Rogue, you only need a swift to set it up. The Reflexive Trick feat opens up all kinds of cool ways to avoid dying and you're going to get insane social skills, so if your DM lets you be the party face you can talk your way out of a lot of encounters. And while the mind effecting stuff still rocks you, Psychic Inception is a god send.

[Rynjin]

I think it's mostly just because it's from Occult Adventures. Occult Adventures is the book nobody really wanted, and none of the classes besides Kineticist really got any playtest feedback because nobody gave half a **** about any of the classes being released before the book came out.

(Seriously, look at the playtest forum (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoInc/olderProjects/pathfinder/playtests). Every other class in the book has under 500 responses. The Kineticist has nearly 5,000.)

The book ended up being...fine. Not really good, not really bad. Which makes it forgettable as well. So no pre-release hype and no post-release hype means nobody really even thinks about the book like they automatically think of the other Base classes or even the Hybrid classes from the ACG.

Combined with the classes being easily described as barely more than archetypes of existing classes (Spiritualist = Summoner, Psychic = Sorcerer, Mesmerist = Bard, Occultist = ...Okay TBH the Occultist is fairly unique too, and the Medium just kinda exists as a thing that poaches class abilities from every character archetype) besides the aforementioned Kineticist...well, people don't build things they don't care about a lot of the time.

[Psyren]

Occult Adventures is the book nobody really wanted

Could you, like, speak for yourself? Just once?

[Hackulator]

I'm currently playing a Mesmerist and I love it. The amount of debuffing you can layer on a large enemy is amazing, and against groups of enemies confusion+murderous command works great. The Mesmerist Tricks allowing me to give everyone reactive Mirror Image was pretty much the only reason we survived the last dungeon we were in.

When you add in Stare Feats you can really turn a BBEG into a pile of useless mush. Even if things are immune to mind effecting, all your stare abilities still work on them if you take Psychic Inception, and if you don't take that you're nuts. Combining that with curses and enervation means you can really make enemies incapable of doing anything. Pretty much your only weakness is groups of creatures with immunity to mind affecting, but intelligent use of illusions gets you around that as well.

[Rynjin]

Could you, like, speak for yourself? Just once?

I'm speaking for general sales figures, if anything. While we don't know the exact sales numbers for Paizo books (since they don't release those figures), we DO know that they only release updated printings of their books once every single copy of the previous printing has been sold.

Occult Adventures was released July 29, 2015 (roughly 2 years and 1 month ago).

The previous book, the Advanced Class Guide, was released September 2, 2014. It received a second printing on July 22, 2015 (10 months after initial release).

The book before that, Ultimate Combat. Released August 2011. Another outlier, received a second printing in January 2014 (2 years, 3 months after release). Third printing was released August 20, 2015 (1 year, 7 months after the previous).

The last book before that with new classes in it was Ultimate Magic, released April 2011. It received an update on March 30, 2012 (roughly a year after release).

Advanced Player's Guide, first book with new classes, released late July 2010. Second printing released December 1, 2010 (anywhere between 2 and 3 months after release. Another outlier to be fair. Likely a very small run).

While these numbers are not fool proof, it's a general gauge of what is considered average sales-wise (and thus popularity-wise) of released books from Paizo. The only other main line book that adds classes with a similar gap in time between them is Ultimate Combat (which only adds one class, mind you) and occult Adventures looks set to break that streak in a couple of months if an errata (and the second printing that comes with it) isn't released beforehand.

Combined with the utter lack of hype for the book before, during, and after its release on the main hub of hardcore Paizo fanboyery (the Paizo forums themselves), it speaks for itself pretty well.

Edit: Before you mention it (since I forgot about it until now anyway), Pathfinder Unchained isn't likely to EVER get an errata due to the nature of the book from what I understand, but for posterity was released April 29, 2015 and still has not received a second printing (2 years, 3 months after release. Tied with Ultimate Combat for longest gap as of now).

[EldritchWeaver]

Edit: Before you mention it (since I forgot about it until now anyway), Pathfinder Unchained isn't likely to EVER get an errata due to the nature of the book from what I understand, but for posterity was released April 29, 2015 and still has not received a second printing (2 years, 3 months after release. Tied with Ultimate Combat for longest gap as of now).

What do you mean with "nature of the book"?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The mesmerist is one of my favorite classes from Occult Adventures, which is in turn one of my first-party books for Pathfinder. Only reason I'm not playing one now is that my group, when asked if they wanted a utility caster or a social caster, said they wanted the utility more, so I'm playing an occultist.

[Rynjin]

What do you mean with "nature of the book"?

Unchained had kind of a weird philosophy behind its creation. It basically served (in theory) two purposes: "Unchain" some bits of Pathfinder from backwards compatibility (either internally or from 3.5's chassis) and give a glimpse of optional rules the devs either considered for Pathfinder's core release or had thought about implementing at some point up to now but never got around it. That's where stuff like the Revised Action Economy rules and the Automatic Bonus Progression stuff comes in.

The former parts (the Unchained Classes primarily) are free from any large need for errata due to inconsistency, unclear wording, or a particular need for change for balance reasons. The latter parts, well, Paizo has a pretty consistent track record of never touching subsystems like that again (see: Words of Power, Piecemeal Armor, Armor as DR, etc. which have never been changed even when the books they're in have been reprinted).

Combined with it being sort of ambiguously in the core line at all (kinda like Mythic Adventures) it most likely won't ever get an errata and maybe (though unlikely) won't get a second print run like the Player Companion stuff (the line of "X Tactics Toolbox" and "Y Handbook" stuff).


The mesmerist is one of my favorite classes from Occult Adventures, which is in turn one of my first-party books for Pathfinder. Only reason I'm not playing one now is that my group, when asked if they wanted a utility caster or a social caster, said they wanted the utility more, so I'm playing an occultist.

How is the Occultist? Every time I look at playing one I go a little cross-eyed and end up playing something else instead. It looks like it'd be an interesting class if you could figure out a good build path for it somehow.

[Psyren]

I'm speaking for general sales figures, if anything. While we don't know the exact sales numbers for Paizo books (since they don't release those figures), we DO know that they only release updated printings of their books once every single copy of the previous printing has been sold.

Not to interrupt your armchair industry analysis or anything, but there are lots of factors at play here, not least of which has been their focus on devoting resources to developing Starfinder. As you yourself said, you don't have any figures, so your conclusions here mean nothing - less than nothing, in fact, once your own stated anti-Paizo bias is factored in.

[Rynjin]

Not to interrupt your armchair industry analysis or anything, but there are lots of factors at play here, not least of which has been their focus on devoting resources to developing Starfinder. As you yourself said, you don't have any figures, so your conclusions here mean nothing - less than nothing, in fact, once your own stated anti-Paizo bias is factored in.

If Starfinder was taking up enough resources that they couldn't put out erratas and new printings, they wouldn't have released several erratas and new printings in the time Starfinder has been in development (Ultimate Equipment and Adventurer's Guide off the top of my head). Their developers haven't been impacted (the Starfinder Design Team is a completely separate entity from the PDT) and whatever you might think about my anti-Paizo bias (which is more a personal dislike for a few significant people that work there than a hate of the company or game as a whole. Pathfinder is still my most played RPG, after all) I definitely don't think they're incompetent at running a business (even if I do think they brush up on it with how they handle community interaction); They're perfectly capable of handling multiple balls in the air, and Starfinder was given a veeeeery conservative start and sparse promise of future support to make sure they could easily absorb the cost if it flopped (the Adventure Path books are both shorter and on a bi-monthly instead of monthly schedule, and its Bestiary doesn't even come out until the end of October).

I'm sure there are other factors behind the scenes. How large was the print run? What was the industry as a whole looking like in certain years (though I do know 2016 was actually a really good year for RPGs and board games in general, I'm not sure about 2015)? Has Lisa Stevens leaving affected things at all? Etc., etc.

But it's a good simple metric that really is more effort than I particularly needed to put into justifying a simple blanket statement you took umbrage at because you seem to have made it your life's mission to get butthurt over every post I make.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Unchained had kind of a weird philosophy behind its creation. It basically served (in theory) two purposes: "Unchain" some bits of Pathfinder from backwards compatibility (either internally or from 3.5's chassis) and give a glimpse of optional rules the devs either considered for Pathfinder's core release or had thought about implementing at some point up to now but never got around it. That's where stuff like the Revised Action Economy rules and the Automatic Bonus Progression stuff comes in.

The former parts (the Unchained Classes primarily) are free from any large need for errata due to inconsistency, unclear wording, or a particular need for change for balance reasons. The latter parts, well, Paizo has a pretty consistent track record of never touching subsystems like that again (see: Words of Power, Piecemeal Armor, Armor as DR, etc. which have never been changed even when the books they're in have been reprinted).

Combined with it being sort of ambiguously in the core line at all (kinda like Mythic Adventures) it most likely won't ever get an errata and maybe (though unlikely) won't get a second print run like the Player Companion stuff (the line of "X Tactics Toolbox" and "Y Handbook" stuff).



How is the Occultist? Every time I look at playing one I go a little cross-eyed and end up playing something else instead. It looks like it'd be an interesting class if you could figure out a good build path for it somehow.

Starfinder actually incorporated several things Unchained introduced, and Horror Adventures touched on several of the ideas (mostly the track-based disease system).

My occultist is rather fun to play, but I will admit he's rather on the strong end of power; rolled good stats, and playing a Str/Int race. The utility Object Reading gives is a godsend, even though we are currently in a tech-heavy area. My character is however equaling the samurai (similarly lucky in chargen) in damage, but is a fair bit squishier, but not by much. And the divination utility is amazing; I'm fully scouting routes around natural hazards, finding out stuff about locations, doing standard-action Augery to cheat random effect-items, and I'm also the trap guy. If only the party actually listened to me half the time.

On-topic, I briefly had a Mesmerist character towards the end of my PFS career. The Vexing Daredevil archetype does not work without a fair bit of rules-lawyering, but he was SO much fun.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

The mesmerist is one of my favorite classes from Occult Adventures, which is in turn one of my first-party books for Pathfinder. Only reason I'm not playing one now is that my group, when asked if they wanted a utility caster or a social caster, said they wanted the utility more, so I'm playing an occultist.

The Umbral Mesmerist with a dip into UnRogue for Umbral Gear makes for a fun, very weird Summoner/Rogue. Painful Stare+Dex+2d6 Sneak Attack is rough on anything and you can pull flankers out of your eyes. Just for future inspiration!

[Florian]

How is the Occultist? Every time I look at playing one I go a little cross-eyed and end up playing something else instead. It looks like it'd be an interesting class if you could figure out a good build path for it somehow.

Occultist is basically the "T3 Wizard", still very versatile and with good endurance due to spells, Focus Powers and still being able to fight. Try fooling around a bit with a basic Elf Occultist VMC Magus, Divination, Evocation, Necromancy and Mage´s Paraphernalia.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

It's also probably the best generalist "Magical Warrior" class in the game thanks to having all that and full BAB too if you take Warrior's Panoply

[Rynjin]

It's also probably the best generalist "Magical Warrior" class in the game thanks to having all that and full BAB too if you take Warrior's Panoply

I've never seen that, and I'm not sure what book that is. Is it something for the Panoply Savant? It looks like the SRD is missing info for that archetype.

[Florian]

I've never seen that, and I'm not sure what book that is. Is it something for the Panoply Savant? It looks like the SRD is missing info for that archetype.

Scrolls down for panoplies: http://www.archivesofnethys.com/OccultistImplements.aspx

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Trappings of the Warrior, sorry. Yeah it takes some investment to qualify but for what you get it's worth it

[Rynjin]

That's really cool. I might make an Occultist next time I want a good 6 caster Gish.

To make up for my derail, I'll say Mesmerists make excellent villains as well as PCs. While it might seem obvious given archetypes like Vizier and Cult Master I don't see a lot of people use Mesmerist as one of their big bads. You can build a Mesmerist that can essentially be the ultimate serial killer or deceiver, infiltrating the party as a "helpless bystander" or something and making them take more damage and other penalties with the PCs explicitly unable to be aware of it.

They make quite terrifying assassins and other things as well. It's a really adaptable class by Pathfinder standards in what kind of characters and villains can be made with it. They fit into any game style from high fantasy to horror at the flip of a switch, being equally capable of overt combat, stealth tactics, "hiding in plain sight" villainy, or horrifying monsters that can open bleeding wounds on their helpless victims without ever moving a muscle.