Moonie/Pal dip

[Chugger]

Anyone had experience doing a Moon Druid w/ a 2 lvl Pal dip to get that Smite?

I assume it would work, that you could use spell slots and convert them to smite damage in animal form - cuz in the phb it says you can use other class abilities. Heck, LoH should work, too (I think). Well first, thoughts on would it even work?

I think it might be a good dip. Not doing it for the armor, so metal armor potentially being a prob is not a prob - no metal. I'd want it for converting spell slots to damage, spell slots I may not be using much because I'd be fighting in animal form so much.

As druids take on the str sta and dex of the animal, it would be easy to put enough points into the other stats needed for the dip. Or start Pal and dip druid - it's easier - all that needs is the wis.

I'd want to get to druid 6 asap cuz animal attacks count as magical, which is nice. Pal 2 is all that's really needed, and you may not want to lose the top level druid perks.

Well, anyway, if someone has thoughts or experience, I'd love to hear them. Thanks.

(edit in the MM it sez a claw or bite attack is a melee weapon attack or seems to imply that it is one - or just the same as one as far as the rules go)

[clash]

so first, it doesnt matter if you multiclass out or in you still need the requirements of both classes.

That said, I think this is a pretty cool idea. A antural weapon attack is considered a weapon attack it just isnt considered a weapon. So anything that say "melee weapon attack" including smite works, anything that says "attack with a melee weapon" doesnt work just to clarify.

I say go for it. A tiger smiting with druid spell progression sounds badass.

[Chugger]

so first, it doesnt matter if you multiclass out or in you still need the requirements of both classes.

That said, I think this is a pretty cool idea. A antural weapon attack is considered a weapon attack it just isnt considered a weapon. So anything that say "melee weapon attack" including smite works, anything that says "attack with a melee weapon" doesnt work just to clarify.

I say go for it. A tiger smiting with druid spell progression sounds badass.

AH, didn't know that. Thanks.

Well, the MM does use the word weapon - where is the "natural weapon" part spelled out pls, if you happen to know. I'd sure appreciate it.

I may give it a roll. Druids aren't MAD at all - moon druids - they can be very SAD (just need wis really) - so I could put points into str and ch to get the pal multi, and it wouldn't hurt much or at all. Might be some strange but workable synergy!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm, that's clever. I dig it.

[smcmike]

Fun idea. Spell slots might go very fast between healing and smiting.

[Chugger]

Fun idea. Spell slots might go very fast between healing and smiting.

Right, I'd pace the use of them. I wouldn't use them to finish off junk monsters or much in the lower level encounters. Boss fights or to finish off something hard hitting - keep it from harming us any more - that sort of thing.

[8wGremlin]

Not quite the same, but Goblin Druid, Circle of the moon (2) , Warlock, Great Old One, Pact of the chain (3) is quite fun.

I can talk through my familiar using Voice of the Master Invocation, as well as telepathy.
I use UA's Gift of the Ever-Living Ones to maximise my self healing

I have an Imp familiar that can handle items for me when I am in Crag cat form (my go to form, from SKT)

I can disengage (goblin trait) as bonus action when I need it.

The Cat form has Nondetection, Pounce, and Spell Turning

[Malifice]

Ive been DMing a Moon Druid + Pal 2 for nearly 3 years now.

He's currently a Druid 14/ Paladin 2.

Smites really make the wildshapes much more viable in combat.

[Chugger]

Please help me - is it "crystal clear" in the phb that a moonie/pal can divine smite in animal form?

The moonie keeps his/her mind and class abilities, iirc, in animal form.

A divine smite requires a melee weapon attack, but the MM calls animal attack with claws and fangs and whatnot that or something very close to that.

I had people in the group telling me it would not be allowable, but they did not have the rules fresh in their heads - and when I challenged them no one could quote the phb to me - or the mm. They'd put their books in their backpacks and were preparing to go home. So maybe they were being inaccurate.

Could such a char in animal form LoH? er lay on paws? :D

[Sir cryosin]

Please help me - is it "crystal clear" in the phb that a moonie/pal can divine smite in animal form?

The moonie keeps his/her mind and class abilities, iirc, in animal form.

A divine smite requires a melee weapon attack, but the MM calls animal attack with claws and fangs and whatnot that or something very close to that.

I had people in the group telling me it would not be allowable, but they did not have the rules fresh in their heads - and when I challenged them no one could quote the phb to me - or the mm. They'd put their books in their backpacks and were preparing to go home. So maybe they were being inaccurate.

Could such a char in animal form LoH? er lay on paws? :D

Yes you can smite in animal form.

[Sir cryosin]

Here let look at the paladin's divine smite and there improved divine smite.

Divine smite: starting at second level when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack you can expend one spells lot to deal radiant damage to the Target in addition to the weapon damage

Improved Divine smite: by 11th level you are suffused with righteous might the all your melee weapons strike scary divine power with them whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon the creature takes an additional 1D 8 radian damage.

So lets look at the difference in wording
When you hit a creature with a MELEE WEAPON ATTACK.
when you hit a creature with a MELEE WEAPON.


When you take the attack action and is attacking with anything be it a sword, fist, claw, bite, table, etc you are making a melee weapon attack. So that mean you can divine smite with any melee weapon attack it does not matter what your making the attack with.

Now with spells and abilities like improved Divine smite that calls out melee weapons you need something that is classified as a weapon.

[PeteNutButter]

Here let look at the paladin's divine smite and there improved divine smite.

Divine smite: starting at second level when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack you can expend one spells lot to deal radiant damage to the Target in addition to the weapon damage

Improved Divine smite: by 11th level you are suffused with righteous might the all your melee weapons strike scary divine power with them whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon the creature takes an additional 1D 8 radian damage.

So lets look at the difference in wording
When you hit a creature with a MELEE WEAPON ATTACK.
when you hit a creature with a MELEE WEAPON.


When you take the attack action and is attacking with anything be it a sword, fist, claw, bite, table, etc you are making a melee weapon attack. So that mean you can divine smite with any melee weapon attack it does not matter what your making the attack with.

Now with spells and abilities like improved Divine smite that calls out melee weapons you need something that is classified as a weapon.

For those that find this confusing, its easiest to remember if you understand it's reasoning. Every attack in the game is either a weapon attack or a spell attack. Every attack in the game is either a melee attack or a ranged attack. Those two binary options frame every attack in the game, with a few key abilities requiring the use of an actual weapon, and it will specify the wording as such (attack with a weapon).

So melee weapon attack applies to any attack that is melee and not a spell attack. The weapon part here means *Not a spell.* Punching, biting, clawing, headbutting etc, all apply.

There are other abilities that don't specify melee weapon attack, saying just melee attack. These are then usable with melee spell attacks. An example of this is the Mounted Combatant feat, which gives advantage to melee attacks [against foes smaller than your mount]. This feat works for things like vampiric touch and shocking grasp, as they are melee attacks.

Note that the disadvantage on ranged attack rolls against foes in melee applies to both spells and weapons, as it does not specify weapon or spell, but things like Sharpshooter feat and many ranger spells require a ranged weapon attack. The same is true for Spell Sniper feat and ranged spell attacks.

So long as you remember that these are binary, weapon or spell, melee or ranged, it should be pretty easy to figure out if ability A works with attack B. Is a claw a spell attack? Nope, so that makes it a weapon attack, ergo smite away.

[Chugger]

Thanks cryo and pete - that seems to clear it up for me! I think I now have the argument I'll need to justify the character interpretation w/ any DM I encounter (I do a lot of module dnd and could have any of a bunch of DMs - who are usually pretty good - but not all rule the same unless you point out to them "guys, we need to be on the same page here please - can't have some of you saying this combo is fine and others saying it's not" - what happens is that people (even usually on-the-ball people) can sometimes have a case of mental methane (so to speak) and make a snap ruling on the rule they think they remember reading x months ago (but the actual rule in the book is not what they now think it is). So I gotta have my ducks lined up and lined up very well, at times.

[DragonBaneDM]

I'm playing that right now and it's fun as all heck. Maintaining Barkskin is an awesome AC fix, and the natural swim/climb speed I got from Mariner's Combat Style helps me when I'm in caster form. Of course the smites just make the whole thing worth it: it kind of helped me cling on to the "best melee fighter" niche I had at 2nd level without falling off so quickly in the rest of the heroic levels.

You even have a (somewhat) reliable ranged attack in the form of Produce Flame! You can pop out to heal, remove status effects, and more. About the only fix I wish I had for this build is it being so dang MAD. Starting off with a 13 Cha and Str is kinda rough. My Wis is only a +2, along with my Dex.

Luckily my Bear form doesn't care about that, and I'm able to smite-slash big monsters reliably while maintaining whatever buff or combat spell I threw out the first roudn.

[imtodd]

If one were going to make this would you go Paladin or Druid first?

[dejarnjc]

If one were going to make this would you go Paladin or Druid first?

Paladin for heavy armor I imagine

[Malifice]

Paladin for heavy armor I imagine

Druids cant wear metal armor in any event which is severely limiting.

[DarkKnightJin]

Paladin for heavy armor I imagine

If you have a DM that enforces it, you might still get shafted on the metal armor thing.
Not sure if I'd screw a player out of a pretty fun character idea like this over semantics regarding armor materials.

[Chugger]

This link says "The Druid explodes." No seriously, read it! It really does.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf

[djreynolds]

If one were going to make this would you go Paladin or Druid first?

Paladin for the saves, I like having if possible wisdom, charisma, and constitution.

The build works as you only need a 13 in strength and charisma.

Just max out wisdom.

Unsure if you need war caster for the AoO to smite with

Its a good use of these "dormant" spell slots

[Malifice]

If you have a DM that enforces it, you might still get shafted on the metal armor thing.

I enforce it. No metal armor for Druds.

Dragonscale armor is a thing though. And they can craft plate from things like Ankheg hide or whatever as well.

Our Moonie/ Paladin was decked out in bone chainmail for some time (completely off the cuff I described a set of radiant resistant chainmail they found as being made out of bone links, at which point his eyes lit up and I let him run with it).

[Arkhios]

If one were going to make this would you go Paladin or Druid first?


Paladin for heavy armor I imagine

Paladin first, but not for the heavy armor. Simply for the other proficiencies and most of all better hit points to begin with. Plus, earlier access to smites.

If a GM is kind enough to drop a heavy armor made of non-metal material, then it's just a bonus I'll gladly accept.

[DragonBaneDM]

I actually disagree with the consensus here. I went Druid first to get to my wildshape ASAP. Brown Bear got me a multiattack and an extra 32 hp a fight.

I'm sure I'll run into heavy, useable armor eventually, and I know Pally has better saves, but I still think I made the right call by getting super surviveable as quickly as I could.

[Arkhios]

I actually disagree with the consensus here. I went Druid first to get to my wildshape ASAP. Brown Bear got me a multiattack and an extra 32 hp a fight.

I'm sure I'll run into heavy, useable armor eventually, and I know Pally has better saves, but I still think I made the right call by getting super surviveable as quickly as I could.

Another possibility I might use could be a "staggered" advancement:
1. Paladin 1 (weapons and saves, and divine sense for RP)
2. Druid 1 (druidic for RP, spellcasting)
3. Druid 2 (wild shape, 2nd caster level)
4. Paladin 2 (Divine Smite, Fighting Style, 3rd caster level = 2nd-level slots!)
5. Druid 3+

[Chugger]

All great stuff to consider, thanks.

The official link says, iirc, that druids choose not to wear metal much like vegetarians choose not to eat meat. They could, but they refuse to. So a druid wearing metal would be very anti-RP. And probably should be banned.

I've read elsewhere about metal-like armor made from, oh, hard scales, magic stone, and so on. That would be the thing to pursue, for fighting in non-animal form.

[Arkhios]

I've read elsewhere about metal-like armor made from, oh, hard scales, magic stone, and so on. That would be the thing to pursue, for fighting in non-animal form.

DMG has a dragon scale mail (+1 scale mail made of dragon scales) which is a solid proof that it's an intended possibility.

Also, looking at page 143 (again, DMG) there's a minor property which can be applied to any magic item:

Strange Material. The item was created from a material that is bizarre given its purpose. Its durability is unaffected.
Technically, you could find a magic plate mail created from glass, wood, or even ice!