Hexblade and Raven Queen are basically patches?

[Rebonack]

For Boon of the Blade and Boon of the Chain, respectively. Right? This doesn't seem like a very good way to update a feature that's lacking. I understand that making errata is tricky, but just tacking on new sub-classes to fix problems with the base class strikes me as poor design.

Now, I like the idea of class features that focus more heavily on improving your Boon choice, but aren't there better ways to do it? Like, say, the option to replace the 6th, 10th, and 14th Patron features with things that augment your Boon instead? That would accomplish the same end-goal, but it feels like it would be less constraining on players that don't want their Patron to be a talking sword.

[Grim Portent]

While being a patch for the Blade and Chain pacts I don't think Hexblade and Raven Queen are bad ideas in themselves, Hexblade certainly has potential, they just gave it terrible fluff, and default fluff matters a lot for how things are percieved.

I mean, here's the default fluff for Hexblade.


You have made your pact with a powerful,
sentient magic weapon carved from the stuff of
the Shadowfell. The mighty sword Blackrazor is
the most notable of these weapons, several of
which have spread across the multiverse over
the ages. These weapons grow stronger as they
consume the life essence of their victims. The
strongest of them can use their ties to the
Shadowfell to offer power to mortals who serve
them. The Raven Queen forged the first of these
weapons. They, along with the hexblade
warlocks, are another tool she can use to
manipulate events in the Material Plane to her
inscrutable ends.

It's pretty damn boring isn't it? You serve a vampire sword made by the Raven Queen from the Shadowfell. Dull and no real fluff flexibility to it.

I would have done something like:


You have forged a pact with an artifact of the ancient and terrible wars that have wracked the planes since the dawn of time. Your patron may be the fiery sword of an avenging angel lost in the Abyss, desperately seeking a champion to wield it's power in the war against evil, or the lance of a Baatorian fiend who fell in the Blood War and which now lies forgotten on the plains of Hades turning it's dark power to calling beings of power to spill blood in it's name. Perhaps it was born of chaos to be wielded by a Slaad, or forged in the mechanisms of Mechanus to enforce the very laws of reality. You can channel a portion of the mystical power of your patron artifact into a mortal weapon turning it into a pale fascimile of the martial glory of your patron. Through your pact you channel a portion of the power and purpose of these ancient weapons, ultimately becoming an extension of the war they fought long ago.

Your patron is still a weapon, but now it can be a weapon of any origin, from any plane and of any alignment or purpose, it ties you into the general nature of the planes and it can have any number of motivations as a patron depending on what it was actually made for. Obviously I'd scrap the shadow themed mechanics from Hexblade with a more customisable planar theme, but I think that would be preferable anyway.



That said, I do think Blade and Chain should be rebalanced to stand on their own merit. I don't think replacing the features of patrons is a good idea because those are often where you get the flavour of your patron from. Are you really a fiend pact warlock if you traded away all your fiend based abilities to buff your familiar or pact blade?

I'm not really sure how I would rebalance the pacts to make them more equal. I can't help but feel invocations are the sensible thing to tweak because they're a nice modular chunk of the class and would be very easy to use to add better support for each pact, but a lot of the utility invocations get dropped by the wayside already because people need to use them to keep their numbers up and making them more important for numbers would just cause that to happen even more.

[GlenSmash!]

I like the Raven Queen a lot. It's the most interesting warlock pact to me. But I do think a strong case could be made that both a lot, if not all, of the Hexblade and Raven Queen abilities could have been invocations for the Blade and Chain Pacts respectively.

[Millstone85]

While being a patch for the Blade and Chain pacts I don't think Hexblade and Raven Queen are bad ideas in themselves, Hexblade certainly has potential, they just gave it terrible fluff, and default fluff matters a lot for how things are percieved.While it is less problematic, there is also something wrong with the fluff of the Raven Queen.

It is like if we got Titania, Asmodeus and Tharizdun instead of the Archfey, the Fiend and the Great Old One. Why isn't this patron called the Psychopomp, the Reaper or the Raven, with the queen as an example? Are they working on a Nentir Vale book?

[DracoKnight]

Are they working on a Nentir Vale book?

I'd be okay with this. Because it would mean something OTHER THAN FR was getting published.

[Regulas]

Only the Cha as stat for weapon on Hexblade and the passive familiar bonus' on the Queen. Everything else about the sub-classes' is perfectly fine and distinct to them.

These definitely should not be invocations because there's too much tax already and these are things that the pacts should have given by default.

[Rebonack]

Only the Cha as stat for weapon on Hexblade and the passive familiar bonus' on the Queen. Everything else about the sub-classes' is perfectly fine and distinct to them.

These definitely should not be invocations because there's too much tax already and these are things that the pacts should have given by default.

Being able to merge with your familiar would be a pretty neat trick for chain, too.

[Saiga]

Medium Armor proficiency is also a pretty big deal for Bladelocks, especially if you're not raising Dex as your attack stat.

[Nifft]

While it is less problematic, there is also something wrong with the fluff of the Raven Queen.

It is like if we got Titania, Asmodeus and Tharizdun instead of the Archfey, the Fiend and the Great Old One. Why isn't this patron called the Psychopomp, the Reaper or the Raven, with the queen as an example?

I'd suggest Pact of Shadow, with the Raven Queen as one example. Tenebrous, Shar (FR), Wee Jas (Greyhawk), and The Shadow (Eberron) are other possible name-drop examples.

[Regulas]

Being able to merge with your familiar would be a pretty neat trick for chain, too.

It would for sure but it's more of a nice "add-on" rather then a default quality, so it's fine for it to be a sub class ability.


Medium Armor proficiency is also a pretty big deal for Bladelocks, especially if you're not raising Dex as your attack stat.

Honestly so long as you're not MAD (such as by having cha for weapon) then light armour doesn't concern me as much, the warlock definitely has ways around the squishyness, it's being also mad at the same time as the default class is that makes it a huge problem. And so similarly it also makes sense to me for this to remain as a subclass feature of the hexblade specifically.

[Chaosvii7]

I'd be okay with this. Because it would mean something OTHER THAN FR was getting published.

I'd actually be especially interested because Nerath was actually somewhat interesting as a setting but they never fleshed it out 100%. They made the Vale, talked about some areas around it, and then at one point had a map done up for one of their board games, but I've always wanted to run a campaign with it. If they put that effort into finishing the setting and making a sourcebook for it, it'd probably be the only book that wouldn't need rules for me to buy it. For better or worse, the Nentir Vale and Nerath were one of the better parts of 4th edition.

[Sindeloke]

I'm not really sure how I would rebalance the pacts to make them more equal. I can't help but feel invocations are the sensible thing to tweak because they're a nice modular chunk of the class and would be very easy to use to add better support for each pact, but a lot of the utility invocations get dropped by the wayside already because people need to use them to keep their numbers up and making them more important for numbers would just cause that to happen even more.

I think of this as the "3.5 fighter fix phenomenon," where WotC's solution to fighters sucking was MOAR FEATS. It's absolutely true that invocations are the best solution - after all, honestly, Tome Pact itself is about the same strength as the other two. It's just slapping Ancient Secrets onto it that makes it so much more powerful. But if the primary complaint with Bladelock is that it takes two invocations to safely get good utility and good damage for either other pact, but two invocations plus two extra ASIs plus either one more invocation (Armor of Shadows) or an entire feat (medium armor) or an entire class level (fighter dip) to safely get the Bladelock just good damage and no utility at all, forcing her to take more invocations is obviously not going to help.

So if they don't want to do a full 5.5 patch, the only real solution is new invocations that completely replace the old ones. Like, idk...

Eldritch Armor: Requires Pact of the Blade. When you summon your pact blade, you may also cause a shadowy armor to form around you, setting your AC to 10+Cha+Dex. While you are wearing this armor, you may substitute your Charisma modifier for your Strength or Dexterity modifier when making attack or damage rolls. You may only add your Charisma modifier to your damage once.

Arcane Combat: Requires Pact of the Blade, 5th level. Select a fighting style. While wielding your pact weapon, you benefit from that fighting style, and from the Extra Attack feature. If you select two-weapon fighting, you may create or bind a second pact weapon as long as both weapons are one-handed or light.

Now you spend just two invocations to safely get slightly better damage than the other two pacts, but still no utility, which is basically fair. They don't stack with Lifedrinker/Thirsting Blade/AoS, they replace them, so you're actually freeing up choices instead of further limiting them, without having to edit anything that currently exists. Is it obvious that they're strictly better than current options and will no one ever take Lifedrinker/Thirsting Blade again? Yes, which is why WotC won't use this solution, but it's nevertheless basically the best small fix possible.

Chain pact is a little trickier because if you make an invocation that's "telepathy plus" it's not even a better but slightly different alternative to Voice, it's just blatantly Voice 2.0 and at that point why not just fix the pact or the original invocation. But if you add a new stronger invocation, then chain pact ends up where blade pact was before, needing more invocations to match the baseline of its competitor (since you will never not want telepathy).

[Kryx]

This is prehaps a reply to some of my rants on the topic as the wording is nearly identical. :smalltongue:

Both Hexblade and Raven Queen are patches and the end result is that the 3 supported playstyles of a warlock are severely limited:

Caster with cantrips are free to select any patron they desire
Caster with familiar is practically limited to only use the Raven Queen patron as it is so much better.
Melee is practically limited to only use the Hexblade patron as it is so much better.

This is a poor result for one of the most diverse classes in 5e and shouldn't be accepted by the community. Balance should be brought to the playstles, but not via restrictive subclasses.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/6umw26/the_warlock_revised_a_heavy_revision_of_the_5e?sor t=top has a nice idea to expand the pact choice to several features and I'm inclined to believe that would deliver a better overall class. Then Hexblade and Raven Queen could be killed and patrons would be available to everyone.
An alternative option is to keep the current setup, do some balance to the initial pact choices, and move hexblade/raven queen features into invocation.

Charisma as an attack/damage stat should never have been an option though. If EK and every other gish is expected to use str/dex and int/wis/cha then bladelock shouldn't be different imo.

There is plenty of room in design to expand on things like melee survivability. For example the Fiend patron has a great feature that helps with that, though in my rework I move it to an invocaton to make it accessible to all patrons.

[Talionis]

Hexblade probably isnt properly balanced. It's a little too powerful in my opinion. I also would prefer the balance in Invocations so all the Patrons were possibility for melee Warlocks.

The most balanced possibility would be a bladelock invocation that was over powered for invocations but prevented the Warlock from accessing Agonizing Blast.

[Millstone85]

Do these patrons synergize well with the boons they are considered patches for?

Hexblade + Blade is probably good. Cha rolls and extra attack.

Raven Queen + Chain might only be for the true Pokemon trainer.


I'd suggest Pact of Shadow, with the Raven Queen as one example. Tenebrous, Shar (FR), Wee Jas (Greyhawk), and The Shadow (Eberron) are other possible name-drop examples.While I agree that the naming convention should have been...

* Pact of the Archfey
* Pact of the Fiend
* Pact of the GOO

* Boon of the Blade
* Boon of the Chain
* Boon of the Tome

... that is not how the PHB does it.

But I suppose the Raven Queen could have been an example of the Shadow, and that would make for a better thematic balance with the Archfey.

Still, I find the Shadowfell to be most interesting as the gray land of the dead (think Fugue Plane or Dolurrh) rather than as a land of darkness (like Shar's realm or Mabar). So anything that connects the plane to psychopomps would be a win in my opinion.

[Kobard]

This is prehaps a reply to some of my rants on the topic as the wording is nearly identical. :smalltongue:Please don't think that I am somehow picking on you, because that is not my intent. I do not necessarily agree with the below post:

Caster with familiar is practically limited to only use the Raven Queen patron as it is so much better.I don't think that Chain will or would necessarily pick the Raven Queen. It's not better; it's just different. In some key ways, it's actually worse. The raven, for example, cannot reshape its form or use weapons/tools as per an imp, sprite, or quasit. It also cannot become invisible, which is a huge benefit of most Chain familiars. You cannot use the raven to deliver touch spells as you can with a proper familiar, whether that is a Chain familiar or just Find Familiar. AND none of your Chain-oriented invocations apply to the sentinel raven.

[Kryx]

I don't think that Chain will or would necessarily pick the Raven Queen. It's not better; it's just different. In some key ways, it's actually worse. The raven, for example, cannot reshape its form or use weapons/tools as per an imp, sprite, or quasit. It also cannot become invisible, which is a huge benefit of most Chain familiars. You cannot use the raven to deliver touch spells as you can with a proper familiar, whether that is a Chain familiar or just Find Familiar. AND none of your Chain-oriented invocations apply to the sentinel raven.
Perhaps you're right that Chain -> Raven Queen is more of a side grade and less of an upgrade.

Though in a good design Raven would've just been a familiar choice for Pact of the Chain imo.

[Saiga]

But then you couldn't have TWO familiars to fulfill certain character concepts, such as an Odin-inspired character.

[Kobard]

Perhaps you're right that Chain -> Raven Queen is more of a side grade and less of an upgrade.

Though in a good design Raven would've just been a familiar choice for Pact of the Chain imo.The Raven Queen provides a flavorful option, but I do agree with others that the patron is too flavor specific. So I would opt for the Shadow, the Pale Walker, the Reaper, or something along those lines. And from there, adjust the 3rd and 6th level abilities to reflect a wider range of options. Some of those abilities of the Sentinel Raven could then be incorporated into the Chainlock proper or its invocations, but WotC seems less interested in making any balance revisions to the core book.

[NecroDancer]

True the Raven Queen pact should have been "the Reaper Pact" but I'm still glad a non FR deity got a name drop. And you can always refluff if necessary, for example the Fiend Pact can be changed to a Draconic Pact with no mechanical changes.

I'm still waiting for an elemental pact though......

[Rebonack]

This is prehaps a reply to some of my rants on the topic as the wording is nearly identical. :smalltongue:

Partly. I had been thinking about the same topic and your rant reminded me that I wanted to make a thread dedicated to the idea.

Honestly, it reminds me of 3.5e when Wizards announced that they were going to 'fix' martial classes with the Book of Nine Swords supplement. Everyone was expecting some cool new variant or option for martial folks. Instead we got three totally new classes that completely overshadowed martial folks. At everything. Whoops!

While the new Patrons aren't quite as bad, the same bad taste is there. Blade and Chain Boons have problems. The former doesn't really do what players take it expecting to do. It doesn't help that Tome with Shillelagh and a SCAG cantrip can do the same thing, arguably better. The latter doesn't provide enough of a boost over vanilla Find Familiar to prevent people from just going Tome Boon and picking up Find Familiar as their free ritual. Chain Voice being hot-garbage if played as Intended ALSO doesn't help things much.

With those problems in mind, the Boons really should be offering options that are unequivocally better than the options provided by the generalist Boon (Tome) in the same area. That could be fixed by either totally re-writing the Boons, or by creating a pair of super-charged Invocation that replaces Chain Voice and Lifedrinker/Thirsting Blade. Instead we just got new Patrons that pigeonhole players.

And that's terrible.

[rbstr]

I wouldn't call Hexblade a "patch" for the Blade. It's more like wish fulfillment. And, notably, it works with EB better than it works with the Blade. With a better eye toward balance it would be fine.
The Raven Queen is even less of a "patch". I really agree it needs to be made a more generic, widely applicable, flavor though.

IMO "patching" The Blade Pact Boon is only dubiously necessary because most complaints come from not recognizing how it compares to the other extra-attack full casters.
But if they were to do something they should do it via invocations and it doesn't need to be complicated. We already know we're gonna get something like Improved Pact Weapon. A +1 weapon at level 3 is a pretty decent buff.
3 or even 4 invocations to get most of a Melee Archetype tacked on to your patron is still a very good deal.

Chain could definitely use something in the mid/lower levels too.

[Rebonack]

True the Raven Queen pact should have been "the Reaper Pact" but I'm still glad a non FR deity got a name drop. And you can always refluff if necessary, for example the Fiend Pact can be changed to a Draconic Pact with no mechanical changes.

I'm still waiting for an elemental pact though......

Hurl Through Hell doesn't fit so great with dragons.

And while we're on the subject 'cast some poor guy through a realm of incomprehensible horror, causing them to take psychic damage' doesn't fit so great with Fiend, either. The Hells aren't that terrible if we're taking Planescape as our basis. The effect seems like it would have fit better with the Great Old One to me.