How to test my players strategically?

[ZenBear]

I want to run a mega dungeon styled after Dark Souls and Darkest Dungeon. Every player will be a Revenant with free choice of attribute for the +1 and a feat (possibly banning Lucky and/or GWM?), thralls to an insane Demilich who hangs out in the tavern and compels them to delve. I'm pretty new to DMing, but I've got the gist of balancing for CR. What I'm hoping for from veterans of the art is suggestions of creative ways to test my players in combat without just throwing bigger and more monsters at them. What sort of level designs, traps, monster combos etc do you find the most dynamic?

[Kane0]

- Complimentary enemies. Meatshield + caster is the classic example but also things like a mage hunter coupled with a counterspeller makes for a nasty threat.
- Break up the battlefield. Elevation changes, cover, obscurement, environmental hazards, etc all contribute to fun and varied encounters
- Creature factions, morale and agendas. Not all monsters in the dungeon get along, and not all are there for the same reason. Make sure you play up their differences
- Non-self-contained encounters. A second wave of monsters arriving mid fight, an alarm that alerts the dungeon, a trap that the monster trigger when losing, things that make whole place feel interconnected and not just a modular series of encounters strung together.

[Vingelot]

Also, you could try creative casters. It's fine to use casters to deal damage, but why not have an archer that turns out to have been just an illusion? Or a Grease to throw the players off balance (I'll show myself out...)

Don't overdo this, though, as it can become annoying. Also, I would leave the crazier schemes (Enlarge/Reduce a bridge away from under someone, and such) to the players.

Edit: I deliberately used lower-level spells in my example to show that this can be done in a balanced way right from the start. It gets more interesting the higher up one gets, of course, with things like Symbol or Hallow.

[JellyPooga]

My number one advice for running any game is;

Furnish. Your. Dungeon.

I'm not talking about just traps and artificial "strategic" environments. Simply putting a table in a room creates the opportunity for one side or the other to utilise it, whether that be as a weapon, cover, difficult terrain, a leaping platform, or whatever else. Make your dungeon make sense; put fire-pits in communal/cooking areas, beds (actual beds) in sleeping quarters, weapon racks in guard posts, cupboards in pantries, bookshelves in libraries, statues and busts in galleries and entrances and so on and so forth. So often I see bland, featureless dungeons of 10x10 and 20x20 rooms filled with monsters that are just standing around waiting to get ganked by adventurers. Even actual dungeons (you know, the prison-y kind) should have furniture. Even cells can have a bed or toilet, let alone wherever the guards hang-out (it's not prison for them, after all).

So yeah, furnish your dungeon...and then use it. When your party of level 5 "heroes" loses their tenth fight to the likes of goblins and orcs because they're not thinking creatively about their environment, they'll soon get the gist.

[Unoriginal]

Use varied ranged/thrown weapons. Have enemies throw oil, alchemical fire, caltrops, metalic marbles, and the like.

Also, I second what JellyPooga said. You should ask yourself: "what IS the dungeon, aside from a dungeon?"

Is it a temple? A tomb? A castle that fell under evil influence? A deliberately created dungeon to contain/hide something?

[smcmike]

Since you mentioned Dark Souls, this is a good article about traps, and how to use them, with some inspiration from DS:

http://theangrygm.com/traps-suck/

[ImproperJustice]

Find a copy of the product: Xtreme Dungeon Crawl.

It's based in an alternate future of a D&D world where Dungeon Crawling takes place in a reality show type environment.

Think Professional Wrestling meets American gladiators or Ninja Warrior.
It doesn't fit your tone, but you will see some fantastic dungeon design and challenges that require a mixture of problem solving and strategy.

Just don't get mixed up and award your Dark Souls PCs with the deluxe luggage set and Haiwain Vacation valued at over 5,000 GP.

[Zman]

- Complimentary enemies. Meatshield + caster is the classic example but also things like a mage hunter coupled with a counterspeller makes for a nasty threat.
- Break up the battlefield. Elevation changes, cover, obscurement, environmental hazards, etc all contribute to fun and varied encounters
- Creature factions, morale and agendas. Not all monsters in the dungeon get along, and not all are there for the same reason. Make sure you play up their differences
- Non-self-contained encounters. A second wave of monsters arriving mid fight, an alarm that alerts the dungeon, a trap that the monster trigger when losing, things that make whole place feel interconnected and not just a modular series of encounters strung together.

I agree with all of this.

An example wa sin my last encounter I ran the group was exploring a swamp trying to find some missing people. They caught wind of someone spying on them, lozardfolk scout, the started chasing it.... just like it wanted. It led them right past a big deep pool of water with an island in its middle with a visible sword. There were logs jutting into the water, difficult terrain, etc. Well the swamp had gators in it which nearly got the lead player.

Then they tried to attack the gators at range with call lightning, and were shocked when the gators went deep into the water and were safe and essentially invisible and didn't just come out after them. Well, they tried to get the sword and drew the attention of the giant gator and the swamp erupted in a swarm of snapping jaws.

Fight was going good for them till the giant gator chomped onto the Paladin, which auto grappled/restrained him, and the huge gator proceeded to recede back into the water.

You should have seen their eyes when they realized they had a turn before a giant croc drug their nearly dead Paladin, soon to be dead, deep into the water beyond their reach.


It was an awesome engaging and tense encounter, and so did it with gators that was a natural trap sprung by a devious lizardfolk scout.

[Sariel Vailo]

My number one advice for running any game is;

Furnish. Your. Dungeon.

I'm not talking about just traps and artificial "strategic" environments. Simply putting a table in a room creates the opportunity for one side or the other to utilise it, whether that be as a weapon, cover, difficult terrain, a leaping platform, or whatever else. Make your dungeon make sense; put fire-pits in communal/cooking areas, beds (actual beds) in sleeping quarters, weapon racks in guard posts, cupboards in pantries, bookshelves in libraries, statues and busts in galleries and entrances and so on and so forth. So often I see bland, featureless dungeons of 10x10 and 20x20 rooms filled with monsters that are just standing around waiting to get ganked by adventurers. Even actual dungeons (you know, the prison-y kind) should have furniture. Even cells can have a bed or toilet, let alone wherever the guards hang-out (it's not prison for them, after all).

So yeah, furnish your dungeon...and then use it. When your party of level 5 "heroes" loses their tenth fight to the likes of goblins and orcs because they're not thinking creatively about their environment, they'll soon get the gist.

Drinking contest game of cards against monsters strip poker with a succubus

[ZenBear]

Thanks for all the great tips so far guys! I wish this forum had an upvote function. Keep them coming! :smallbiggrin:

[Protato]

I'm not very good at DMing, and I barely do it. Infact I kinda want to reboot my game (twice!). With that said, my two cents is that you should think about monsters that might be thematically appropriate. For example, I like the Nothic, a creature that was once a magic-user but had become corrupted by the power they sought. They're smart, they magically know something about anyone they look at, and they can cause people to rot just by looking at them. Creepy, might make a good low-level boss or higher-level minion, especially if the arc villain is an evil wizard or similar.

[JackPhoenix]

Powerful enemies with obvious weaknesses are good. Ogres are tough, but their menal saves are abysmal. Foes with pack tactics (or equivalents) are deadly if they can gang up, but dividing them may make the fight much easier. Hobgoblins have high AC and great damage, but with their low HP, they are fodder for Sleep spell (all right, this one is not so obvious). Enemies with single strong attack suffers more from disadvantage. Big monsters can't get into small areas.

In my current campaign, I've taught my players that damage isn't everything when they had a boss fight with customized, heavily armored ogre: they found that using the drow oathbreaker paladin to cast Faerie Fire (to make hitting the ogre easier) and fear from Dreadful Aspect (to give him disadvantage on his attacks) was well worth keeping the paladin (hardest hitting character in the group) out of melee to avoid breaking her concentration. Also that while keeping few low level slots for Shield and having Fire Bolt is nice, autohitting Magic Missile is well worth the slot. Also, that having ranged attacks is important even for primarily melee characters, when flock of mephits blasted them with breath weapons from out of their reach as the characters were walking a narrow ledge over lava lake.

I also confronted the party (level 3) with an Assassin (the CR 7 version) in their first encounter. I've expected them to run after the paladin was almost one-shotted by his first attack. Instead, they cleared the bridge where the fight happened and blasted it with Shatter, breaking the bridge and sending the assassin to his doom far below. In the same fight, on the same (narrow) bridge, they fought 2 spies before the assassin arrived. Chokepoints are nasty if the caster gets stuck between the enemy and the party members actually suited for melee. And they've used chokepoints successfully themselves, when they stood in the doorway of a tavern, facing superior numbers of enemies, and put Dust Devil spell right outside the door.

[Chugger]

Use incredibly good tactics against the party and see if they can cope.

Have gargoyles descend upon the weakest caster. Have a badguy caster split the party with a wall of ___. Then only attack the ones who aren't trapped on the other side. Use strong control tactics.

In the right location with the right set-up a level 3 to 5 warlock could really bother a much more powerful party or possibly humiliate them. Think about it.

If that's too much then have otherwise very weak monsters use amazing tactics.

By adding challenging features to the battlefield you can make for a challenging battle. A few skilled archers hiding in a log pile (at least half cover, maybe 3/4) while an otherwise hidden caster (so they can't break concen easily) puts spike growth around them. Spike growth is a _nasty_ spell. Have the hidden caster send illusionary monsters at them from the flank. They waste a turn going swish. THEN have a real version of that monster hit them from the flank.

A battlefield littered with pits, very active steam geysers (can hurt and create fog clouds at random) - a nearby volcano spewing hot rocks that might randomly hit someone - a fight on a rotted wooden floor (can fall through) - a fight in a swamp dotted with ground you can sink into and get stuck at random - a fight on a sheet of ice so slick you're almost always falling. A fight on a narrow trail up a steep cliff when peryton or such flyby monsters swoop down and attack.