Warlocks: what if Patrons & Boons mostly switched?

[Saiga]

So one complaint I've read about the Warlock is that the Boons feel lackluster as they don't provide enough support for the alternate playstyles they suggest (particularly Blade) or require further invocations to work (making the mechanical choices feel mandatory over flavourful invocation). I definitely agree with that for the Bladelock, at the very least.

I've also heard feedback that despite Patrons being the subclass, they don't differentiate Warlocks as much, since none of them encourage different playstyles.

So what if Patron choice was a 1 level choice (like current Boons) with FLAVOURFUL invocation support, and Boons became the subclass, granting features at levels 3, 6, 10 and 14 (exactly the same as Bard subclasses)?

You'd pick your patron at level 1, gaining the expanded spell list and maybe 1 other feature, but your playstyle would depend on the Boon you chose and patron choices (including invocations) would largely effect flavour and roleplaying more than raw power.

Stuff like spending invocations to get Extra Attack would go away when it becomes a subclass.

What does everyone think?

[Vogie]

I'm confused... That's already how it is.


Otherworldly Patron
At 1st level, you have struck a bargain with an otherworldly being of your choice
Including an Expanded spell list, and the first boon.

Then you get invocations starting at level 2
Then you get more Boons at levels 3 (The Pact Boon - Blade/Tome/Chain), 6, 10, and 14 based on the Patron.

Technically each of the three pact Boons are similar to subclasses, some of which (specifically high-damage BladeLock) are more MAD invocation-heavy than others.

[Saiga]

That's not how it is at all.

Currently:

Patron works as other subclasses, granting features at multiple levels.

Boon grants a feature at only one level, but has invocations exclusive to each choice.

That's the part I would switch.

[Vogie]

So you want More Tome/Blade/Chain abilities at 6, 10 & 14?

I mean, you could. You would greatly reduce the amount of customization, while increasing the amount of Patron-only invocations. It would definitely make sure that all boons feel identical, even moreso than they do now, as all of the pact-boon-based invocation customizations would be part of the required boon track rather than customizations.

The Blade abilities would be really boring - It would, as you say, give things like additional damage, an extra attack, a plus 1 weapon, et cetera. To be honest, you would have reduce the Blade Boon to "You have secretly multiclassed fighter, just fighter, don't tell anyone".

The Tomelocks would be even more the same as existing minmaxed tomelocks.

The Chainlocks would get... nothing, really. They'll get Chains of Carceri, Voice of the Chain master... Maybe Gift of the Ever-Living Ones from UA?

To be fair, you could probably get the same or better benefit by just combining some Bladelock-only invocations and some spit-polish homebrew, such as allowing nonGOOs to use Grasp of Hadar or dropping down the level prerequisites from some of the invocations (free Jump only at 9th level? Really?).

[Millstone85]

This goes well with the thread about how Unearthed Arcana may be trying to fix the Blade and Chain boons with the Hexblade and Raven Queen patrons.

I don't know about fixing it, but I agree that's probably how the class should have been designed in the first place. People seem much more interested in bladelocks, chainlocks and tomelocks than in feylocks, fiendlocks and goolocks.


To be honest, you would have reduce the Blade Boon to "You have secretly multiclassed fighter, just fighter, don't tell anyone".That's pretty much true of any of the martial subclasses.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I... had never thought of it that way, but I think you're right, Saiga, at least from a purely game design standpoint. It makes much more sense to make the "what you do" choice the mechanically-heavy one and the "who you are" one the lighter.

[Regulas]

My thought on this is to:

Make the pact the subclass with the abilities at 1/6/10/14, but without expanded spells. Yes it really should have always been this way.


Make the Patron only a spell list, like the land Druid's spell lists. It gives you all the nice flavor of having a particular type of patron without locking in the mechanics in a weird way.




As a quick fix you could just make the current patron abilities invocations (level binded) and let the warlock take invocations at those levels. With some DM guidance this would be easier to do for a short term character creation.

[Typhon]

So would that change the way your character works mechanically? By which I mean, would your main stat for powers alter based on what boon you took?

I understand that your design point is to be able to more easily feel different by naturally enhancing the warlocks to feel different by more boon specific and less pact specific, but would that also alter how they connected to the pact/boon? Leaving it as charisma only is kind of odd at that point.

I could see a bladelock being like a character out of Soul Caliber and needing to rely on strength or dex. They have magic, but mostly bring the pain. They want to grow stronger, and aren't concerned with how they get there.

A tomelock would be more concerned about intelligence and wisdom, as they went for knowledge they did not already possess. Well maybe not wisdom, as who goes making a random pact with uber beings. But they seek the secrets of power that are forbidden to mortals.

I could see chainlocks staying with charisma, as that seems like where they would be. More of working behind the scenes, as does Littlefinger. Spies, lies, and manipulation are their tools and their trade.

[Grim Portent]

It would require a lot of book space but what about having each patron have three features in place of their current ones, and you get one for your pact, with pacts being moved to level 1 as well?

So the benefits for having fiend as your patron are different if you're a blade pact or a tome pact, and the benefits for being a blade pact are different if you serve a fey or a great old one.

[Millstone85]

I could see a bladelock being like a character out of Soul Caliber and needing to rely on strength or dex. They have magic, but mostly bring the pain. They want to grow stronger, and aren't concerned with how they get there.I miss the 4e option of a warlock whose spellcasting ability is Constitution, with the rationale that the character is all about being a conduit for otherworldly power.

I don't know how it could be balanced in 5e, but making the martial warlock less MAD could be a way.


So the benefits for having fiend as your patron are different if you're a blade pact or a tome pact, and the benefits for being a blade pact are different if you serve a fey or a great old one.4e hexblades got a different pact weapon and stuff depending on the source of their power.

Come to think of it, 4e hexblades were also much better than the standard 4e warlock at summoning creatures. Maybe we only need two archetypes: the bookish warlock and magical girl warlock.

[Rebonack]

I've floated the same basic idea a few times. Essentially, your Patron gets you the level 1 Patron feature and the expanded spell list. Later abilities can be included as level-bound Invocations if you really want them.

The Boon becomes the subclass. Blade is your gishy variant, Tome is your full-caster, Chain is your pet guy. As you continue leveling up, you get more features that expand and improve upon those three archetypes. Because let's be real here. The Boon you pick does MUCH more to inform what your Warlock is going to be like than your Patron does. Patrons, barring all the amazing stuff Fiend offers, mostly consists of ribbons and a few fun tricks. A GOO Warlock and a Fae Warlock aren't that different. But a Tomelock and a Bladelock certainly are.

Just to spitball something-

Boon of the Chain: As written, plus a few features from Voice and Sentinel Raven. Namely the 'sense everything it senses while in range' language, the ability to wake you as a bonus action, speaking through it, and the massively expanded telepathy range. I think that would be enough of a difference from Vanilla Find Familiar to prevent Tome from stepping on Chain's toes.

At level 6: The familiar becomes more skilled and resilient. They now use your Prof bonus rather than their own for ability checks and add your Prof bonus to their AC. Their hit dice count is equal to your Warlock level and they gain new ASI/Feats as you do. Once per short rest, as a reaction when you would take damage, you may instantly swap positions with your familiar, allowing it to take the hit for you.

At level 10: You gain the ability to merge with your familiar as a bonus action. Your size becomes Tiny and you gain access to the familiar's special senses, movement, and abilities as applicable. You may end this ability as an action, causing your body to appear in a space within five feet of the familiar.

At level 14: The familiar becomes more formidable in combat. Your familiar adds your Prof bonus to its attack and damage rolls. Once per short rest on its turn, as a bonus action, your familiar may grow to Medium size, increasing its strength and ferocity. Its Strength score increases by 8, it gains temporary hits points equal to twice your Warlock level, its natural weapon damage dice increases by two steps, and it may freely use the Attack action on its turn. This enhanced form lasts for up to ten minutes.

That's one take on it.

Just as easily I could see it getting more features revolving around summoning things or binding monsters rather than buffing the familiar, which would also be pretty cool. If Wizards can have giant swarms of skeletons or animated daggers, why can't the Warlock have some pets?

[Saiga]

@Vogie

I don't know why you think this would reduce the customization. I mean, if you changed nothing else and just made the Boon-specific invocations into subclass abilities, I guess it would. But that wasn't what I meant.

I meant that they'd become subclasses with a mix of their old invocations and new subclass features (Blade and Chain could take inspiration from Hexblade and Raven Queen abilities). The Extra Attack example I gave because that's exactly how it works for Bards, Wizards and (UA) Sorcerors.

As you pointed out, most of the optimized Locks that focus on their Boon end up making the same choices anyway - so the choices feel rather shallow. Why not make the playstyle support part of the same package, and have the individual choices you make as you go along have less of an impact so you have more freedom? Picking Patron features as Invocations means deciding just how fiend-ish or fey-like you want your Warlock to be.

As Grod put it, I think "what you do" should have the mechanical support and "who you are" has more freedom to be a grabbag of choices.

@Typhon

Alternate attributes would be a great idea, as it's something I wish 5E had. That could easily be tied into the Tome, or Tome could give a reason to be MAD with mental stats (Cha + Int) which would also be new and interesting to explore.

[Matrix_Walker]

I have to say I agree 100%, the OP would be a big improvement.