Looking to build a Bard in 3.5

[Mojax]

As the title says i am looking to put together a Bard in 3.5

Not played a bard since 1st edition so lots have change

Have read bits and bats and think they could complete the party we have- Human Cleric, Gnome Cleric/Fighter, Human Rouge, Dwarf Wizard, Dwarf Fighter and looking to add a Human Bard to this

What are your thoughts and suggestions. All welcome

Would a bard be of use? and if so what build?

Throwing this one out to the whole world :-)

Mo

[Grod_The_Giant]

What books are available? Bards are in kind of a weird point power-wise in core, but can get crazy-strong with a few outside books.

[Darrin]

What sourcebooks do you have available? Can you use online sources? How about Dragon Magazine?

In particular... do you have access to Complete Arcane? If so, then that means the Sublime Chord PrC is available. At higher levels, this essentially turns the bard into a sorcerer, giving you access to 9th-level spells.

If you would prefer a more melee-focused bard... then do you have access to Dragon Magic and Tome of Battle? If so, then a Bardblade (Bard 4/Warblade 16) or Bardsader (Bard 4/Crusader 16) might be worth considering. This combines the Dragonfire Inspiration feat with the Song of the White Raven feat to supercharge your Inspire Courage up to 12d6 [fire] damage on all the party's attacks.

If you want something more in the middle, then a Bard "gish" might look more like... Bard 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 9.

[Raxxius]

The group looks very front line heavy, with a skill monkey and low caster support in a single wizard.

Go face/buffer/bfc

The Dragonfire inspiration build would work nicely. As would sublime cord to boost your parties spell casting.

[BaronDoctor]

For sheer simplicity's sake, Bard 10 / Sublime Chord 10 (Complete Arcane) wouldn't be terrible. Yes, there's a bunch of fiddly bits you're passing on, and you're only doing one thing, but it's pretty recognizable as an augmented bard. Throw in Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds) and Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) and you're largely good.

Talk to the Wizard and Cleric about what they're doing so that what you do stacks with it and doesn't overlap instead.

[ATHATH]

What's the optimization level of the rest of the party? Is this their first time playing in 3.5 too?

[Hackulator]

For sheer simplicity's sake, Bard 10 / Sublime Chord 10 (Complete Arcane) wouldn't be terrible. Yes, there's a bunch of fiddly bits you're passing on, and you're only doing one thing, but it's pretty recognizable as an augmented bard. Throw in Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds) and Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) and you're largely good.

Talk to the Wizard and Cleric about what they're doing so that what you do stacks with it and doesn't overlap instead.

Pretty much this, the easiest way to do Bard both powerful and without losing the normal Bard flavor is Sublime Chord. You also actually have some good versatility in that you get both a sorcerer's blasty spells and the ability to provide backup healing if you want.

[gorfnab]

Here are some handbooks that may be of some use:
The Bard's Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8686)
New Bard Handbook (http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/)
Breaking Down Inspire Courage (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8936)

Going off of the other posters, Sublime Chord is nice for Bard builds, however I like the build of Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8. With Virtuoso you can choose which spellcasting it advances so after the 2 levels of Sublime Chord the remaining 8 levels of Virtuoso will continue the Sublime Chord casting.

[Baby Gary]

just going to link to my current bard that I am playing. She can either give all allies +10 to attack, damage, saves against fear and charms OR +10d6 fire damage. Also she can ID most monsters so she can use her IC and DFI most effectively. And of course Knowledge Devotion just cause (I pick that up on all my character that have at least +10 to all the IDing knows)

Here is the sheet for this character
(https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1261040)
also with a good know devotion roll she can get up to +19 to attack! this is no homebrew 3.5, however this is a rather optimized character but not the most. I could most likely trade away a few of those bard levels for something else but I don't really care.

[Hiro Quester]

In a frontline-heavy group like this being a buffer of the combat folks will make you an essential member of the team.

I played a bard like this, where in the first round casting haste and singing inspire courage would do far more damage to the enemies than any blasting spell I had access to (before higher levels with sublime chord casting).

The bard handbooks linked above will be very useful. Let me add a few features of just about any buffer bard:

Melodic casting feat is essential. Lets you cast while singing, and let's you dump concentration (use perform instead).

Learn the Harmonize spell (races of stone; 2nd level). For the next while you can start a bardic music as a move action, allowing you to sing and cast in the same round.

Some people recommend a harmonizing weapon, to extend your music's effect for ten rounds after you finish singing. I disagree. The weapon switches to a new music just after you do. So your first song only lasts 5 rounds.

Lingering song feat does this same job, but doesn't switch songs. All your music lasts 10rounds. This enables you to switch to a new bardic music each round, and all of them have effects for 10 rounds.

So first round you can cast haste and sing inspire courage. Next round you sing inspire greatness and cast a BFC spell. Next round you can sing dragonfire inspiration and cast another spell.

There are a lot of other excellent bardic feats, though. Different ones fit with different roles.

Bards have access to Doomspeak, which is possibly the best debuff in the whole game, for example.

A Gish bard, who goes into combat, might benefit from snowflake wardance.

The bardic handbooks have lots of good suggestions.

[Zephonim]

I recommend half-elf bard substitution levels. Because the song that is calm emotions but the DC is your diplomacy check is insane.

You can also get some feats from races of destiny that lets you reroll diplo

[Mojax]

What books are available? Bards are in kind of a weird point power-wise in core, but can get crazy-strong with a few outside books.

sticking close to source books so no dragon mag stuff i am afraid

[Mojax]

What's the optimization level of the rest of the party? Is this their first time playing in 3.5 too?

guys are relatively new also played for a couple of years at 3.5 once a month maybe less
Also looks like ill be starting at level 8 not 9

[Hiro Quester]

sticking close to source books so no dragon mag stuff i am afraid

Even without Dragon Mag, the bard got a lot of goodies in most of the non-core books.

The New Bard Handbook (by JoshuaD) linked above will be your friend in so many ways, in highlighting options for you to consider. Study it well.

[Mojax]

Even without Dragon Mag, the bard got a lot of goodies in most of the non-core books.

The New Bard Handbook (by JoshuaD) linked above will be your friend in so many ways, in highlighting options for you to consider. Study it well.

Not sure i can use this as not an original source book

[Darrin]

Not sure i can use this as not an original source book

I'm not sure what you mean by "original source book", could you clarify? Do your available sourcebooks include the Complete series, because that has a great deal of impact on any advice we could give you. Bards in Core are a little underpowered, but adding the Completes and a few other books like Dragon Magic can really kick them up into another tier. In particular, we need to know your feelings on going into the Sublime Chord PrC.

Saroman has a similar thread over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?534565-Optimal-Bard-Build), and there's already a lot of bard advice posted there that might apply to your situation.

What would you like your bard to focus on? Spellcasting, melee, gishing, inspire courage, etc.?

[Zombulian]

Not sure i can use this as not an original source book

...H-handbooks aren't source books...

[Mojax]

I'm not sure what you mean by "original source book", could you clarify? Do your available sourcebooks include the Complete series, because that has a great deal of impact on any advice we could give you. Bards in Core are a little underpowered, but adding the Completes and a few other books like Dragon Magic can really kick them up into another tier. In particular, we need to know your feelings on going into the Sublime Chord PrC.

What would you like your bard to focus on? Spellcasting, melee, gishing, inspire courage, etc.?

Have no idea what a Sublime Chord PrC refers to, as i said new to 3.5. I have played 2nd edition and 1st only. I can use any book that is Wizards based no independent editions of anything if that helps

Also starting at 8th level and have a 28 point buy in and all stats start at 8 1 to 1 until 14 then, 15-16 2 for 1, 17 to 18 3 for 1

Want to provide a support class. Buffing - Inspiring courage to the heavy front line the group has, engaging in combat if I need to. so more spell based engaging in combat if I need to.

Guessing I have not picked the easiest class to play but looks like a challenge and could be fun and a little mad which i like the look of

I can use any book that is Wizards based no independent editions of anything if that helps (which is more than i thought at first found a few now)

[Mojax]

...H-handbooks aren't source books...

They are to me

[gawwy]

They are to me

If hand books are sources so is this thread...

A handbook is basically a collection of advice on how to build/play a bard. Theres no new dnd content in them. As they contain no new content they are not a "source" of anything in the context of a source book.

As for not knowing what a sublime chord is.. The handbooks contain refreances to which book and where each thing they talk about is found.

e.g. Sublime Chord (CA 60) means sublime chord is found on page 60 of Complete Adventurer

[Zombulian]

They are to me

No. It doesn't matter what you think they are. Opinions are meant to be used to show your perspective on a subjective issue. Handbooks on forums not being sourcebooks is a fact.

[Darrin]

I can use any book that is Wizards based no independent editions of anything if that helps (which is more than i thought at first found a few now)

That... doesn't really answer the question.

Ok. So. The first term we need to define is "Core". That consists of three books:

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual.

"Core" can also mean the online SRD (http://dndsrd.net/), since that consists mostly of material from the three Core books... and some other stuff, like psionics from the XPH, Epic Level Handbook, and some Divine stuff from Deities & Demigods.

The next designation most people use is "Core + Completes" which is the original 3 books plus:

Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Complete Psionic (sorta)

After that, there are the "Races of..." books:

Races of Destiny
Races of the Dragon
Races of Stone
Races of the Wild

The next broad category are the "Environment" books:

Frostburn (AKA "It's cold outside")
Sandstorm (AKA "It's hot outside")
Stormwrack (AKA "It's wet outside")
Cityscape (AKA "It's crowded outside")
Dungeonscape (AKA "It's not outside")

There are some official WotC books beyond that, like PHBII, DMGII, Dragon Magic, etc., but that covers most of the major sourcebooks.

So... do you have access to everything from WotC *in print*, or do you have a limited selection of these books?

[Hiro Quester]

Have no idea what a Sublime Chord PrC refers to, as i said new to 3.5. I have played 2nd edition and 1st only. I can use any book that is Wizards based no independent editions of anything if that helps

Also starting at 8th level and have a 28 point buy in and all stats start at 8 1 to 1 until 14 then, 15-16 2 for 1, 17 to 18 3 for 1

Want to provide a support class. Buffing - Inspiring courage to the heavy front line the group has, engaging in combat if I need to. so more spell based engaging in combat if I need to.

Guessing I have not picked the easiest class to play but looks like a challenge and could be fun and a little mad which i like the look of

I can use any book that is Wizards based no independent editions of anything if that helps (which is more than i thought at first found a few now)

I originally played AD&D, and my first character playing 3.5 was a Bard/Sublime Chord/Heartfire Fanner. Bard/Sublime Chord is a bit complicated, and a small challenge, but not an insurmountable one if you are both willing to read rulebooks and ask questions.

It is a very fun class combination to play; you have a lot of options for character design, and in any encounter can always have a choice of options for making a meaningful contribution.

The Sublime Chord is a Prestige Class (PrC), from the Complete Arcane rulebook, designed to adapt the standard bard. Most Prestige classes require a base of regular classes, and then add flavor and other abilities.

The Sublime Chord develops a bards magical abilities at the expense of bardic music. It starts a whole new casting progression, beginning with 4th level spells and ending with 9th level spells. It also gets some very powerful spells early (Irresistible Dance as a 6th level spell).

This is why most people only stay in that PrC for two levels (11th and 12th and then move to a different PrC to advance SC casting and Bardic music.

Virtuoso (from Complete Adventurer, p 89) is another Prestige class that loses a bit of casting and adds some interesting bardic mucis abilities.

A typical build is Bard 8 or 9/Virtuoso1 or 2/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso+8

The first level of Virtuoso does not progress casting, so you take it before SC, then pick up Virtuoso again to progress the SC casting all the way to 9th level spells.

A Bard/Sublime Chord can be a terrific buffer (with both spells and bardic music) and party "face" (taking care of the social dimensions of the game, with a good investment in diplomacy, bluff and gather information skills.

[Mojax]

That... doesn't really answer the question.

Ok. So. The first term we need to define is "Core". That consists of three books:

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual.

The next designation most people use is "Core + Completes" which is the original 3 books plus:

Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Complete Psionic (sorta)

After that, there are the "Races of..." books:

Races of Destiny
Races of the Dragon
Races of Stone
Races of the Wild

The next broad category are the "Environment" books:

Frostburn (AKA "It's cold outside")
Sandstorm (AKA "It's hot outside")
Stormwrack (AKA "It's wet outside")
Cityscape (AKA "It's crowded outside")
Dungeonscape (AKA "It's not outside")

There are some official WotC books beyond that, like PHBII, DMGII, Dragon Magic, etc., but that covers most of the major sourcebooks.

So... do you have access to everything from WotC *in print*, or do you have a limited selection of these books?


Ok i have access to the following and bear with me as it is a lot (they sent me a memory stick with stuff on so I am a bit overwhelmed)

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual. 1
Monster Manual.2
Monster Manual.3
Monster Manual.4
Monster Manual.5
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Scoundrel
Compete Warrior
Complete Mage
Races of Stone
Races of Destiny
Races of Dragon
Races of the wild elf
Tome of battle
Dragon Magic
Drow of the underdark
Races of eberron

And that is the lot i can see that are books and not lists of spells or character sheets that of any help?


Would like to take this opportunity to say thanks to everyone trying to help me at this point. i appreciate the complete lack of knowledge an my part not alone the stupidity so THANKS ALL

[Zombulian]

Ok i have access to the following and bear with me as it is a lot (they sent me a memory stick with stuff on so I am a bit overwhelmed)

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual. 1
Monster Manual.2
Monster Manual.3
Monster Manual.4
Monster Manual.5
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Scoundrel
Compete Warrior
Complete Mage
Races of Stone
Races of Destiny
Races of Dragon
Races of the wild elf
Tome of battle
Dragon Magic
Drow of the underdark
Races of eberron

And that is the lot i can see that are books and not lists of spells or character sheets that of any help?


Would like to take this opportunity to say thanks to everyone trying to help me at this point. i appreciate the complete lack of knowledge an my part not alone the stupidity so THANKS ALL

Okay, so you actually have pretty much all of the books required to implement the advice that you've been given (besides Heartfire Fanner but that's not necessary). The question now becomes what type of Bard you want. A buffer? A Buffer/Caster? A buffer/meleer?

[Mojax]

Okay, so you actually have pretty much all of the books required to implement the advice that you've been given (besides Heartfire Fanner but that's not necessary). The question now becomes what type of Bard you want. A buffer? A Buffer/Caster? A buffer/meleer?

Want to provide a support class. Buffing - Inspiring courage to the heavy front line the group has, engaging in combat only if I need to. so more spell based i would say maybe ranged weapons if needed to provide damage

[Kitsuneymg]

Want to provide a support class. Buffing - Inspiring courage to the heavy front line the group has, engaging in combat only if I need to. so more spell based i would say maybe ranged weapons if needed to provide damage

You will want Dragonfire Inspiration. If you can swing it, be a Silver Brow Human and take Draconic Heritage (Pyroclastic? Dragon) to allow fire or sonic damage. Then take Lingering Performance to let your music continue for 10 rounds instead of 5. Round 1, add bonus to hit and damage. Round 2, add lots of bonus d6s. Round 3, buffs (haste, good hope, etc).

Be warned. This is fairly boring in combat. You spend most fights doing the same 3 things. It's effective, but rather dull. A (IMO) more fun build is Crusader or Warblade 2/Bard 4/Crusader or Warblade 14. This gives you access to Song of the White Raven which lets you start inspire courage as a swift action. Super important. It also gives you a lot of front line abilities. White Raven maneuvers in particular are things that aid your companions.

Finally, if your GM is a kind sort, you can look at this: the A-Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin). Yeah, it says paladin. It's a bard in disguise, but requires your GM to liberally interpret a few things. It's a fun read anyway.

[tiercel]

I'm going to offer a counterpoint, especially if 1) you're new to D&D 3.5 and 2) your group isn't highly experienced either.

If you want to play a bard, play a bard.

Yes, a Sublime Chord-based bard character will be mechanically stronger in the long run with its advanced spellcasting, but that is a bard-sorcerer hybrid: it's more complex, and you don't even get to start the advanced part until you are 11th level, and if you wanted to be a sorcerer so bad... you could have played a sorcerer from the word "go" (which then possibly begs the question of why you weren't just playing a fully optimized wizard instead....)

Also, while you can theoretically optimize a bard's Inspire Courage pretty hard, check with your DM about what is reasonable for your game. Not all games will survive every single swing by your party having +10 to hit, +10d6+10 to damage; even if your DM were to allow that, 1) he might have to rebalance combat so hard to account for your buffs that any combat WITHOUT your buffs might be Instant Fail for your party and 2) welcome to life as a one trick pony: in combat, your character does nothing but run Standard Buff Sequence as you sit around eating munchies watching your friends actually play the game.

If you run a more moderate, vanilla version of Inspire Courage, you can still hand your teammates a significant boost, while not having to burn more than a single round of combat in so doing AND having your feats free to contribute individually yourself (getting swashbuckly or even archer-y, say).

Pure single-class bard can be plenty strong, and some abilities or items even run off bard level, so the more pure bard you are, the more awesome you are.

Out of combat, it doesn't get much better than bards for the party face: not only do you have very nearly every social skill, numerous reasons to own a Circlet of Persuasion, bardic Fascinate and Suggestion (which aren't spellcasting and are part of a performance), never mind Charm spells and Glibness, the latter of which makes you into the Best Liar Ever. As a bard, if you can get someone to stop and listen to you, you have already won.

When it comes to combat anyway, yes, there's your buffs, you can hold your own in the thick of melee if you even mildly build for it, you have limited but respectable spellcasting, and for everything else, you have Use Magic Device.

[Hiro Quester]

It does not have to be boring where you do the same few things each combat.

Take the melodic casting feat, which enables you to use a perform check instead of a concentration check to cast when threatened, distracted,etc.. But more importantly it enables you to cast spells while singing.

Learning as a second-level spell Harmonize(RoS) lasts for minutes/level and enables you to start bardic music as a move action. (Better yet, make a continuously active custom magic item.)

With that combination you can sing inspire courage as a move action,and still have a swift action and a standard action in which to do other things. (Like haste your party.)

Then in the second round you can switch your inspiration to DFI, and cast another spell (plenty of options here). Some kind of battlefield control is often good.

In the third round you are now basically free to do whatever needs doing.

[Mojax]

would again just like to say thank you to all those who have replied

I have put together a Spellscale Bard with just 8 levels in Bard. As i thought i would try and keep this as simple as possible

Str 10
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 18

are my stats

The next question i would like to ask is the Spellscale gets 3 Alternative racial Lvls at the cost of a 2nd levl spell is this worth taking ?
Also is there a must have feat i should take?

Again thanks in advance all

Mo

[Mojax]

It does not have to be boring where you do the same few things each combat.

Take the melodic casting feat, which enables you to use a perform check instead of a concentration check to cast when threatened, distracted,etc.. But more importantly it enables you to cast spells while singing.

Learning as a second-level spell Harmonize(RoS) lasts for minutes/level and enables you to start bardic music as a move action. (Better yet, make a continuously active custom magic item.)

With that combination you can sing inspire courage as a move action,and still have a swift action and a standard action in which to do other things. (Like haste your party.)

Then in the second round you can switch your inspiration to DFI, and cast another spell (plenty of options here). Some kind of battlefield control is often good.

In the third round you are now basically free to do whatever needs doing.

I can see no Melodic casting feat where is that from?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I can see no Melodic casting feat where is that from?
Complete Mage. Lets you use Perform instead of Concentrate, and lets you cast spells and activate magic items while maintaining bardic music.

[Mojax]

Complete Mage. Lets you use Perform instead of Concentrate, and lets you cast spells and activate magic items while maintaining bardic music.

Thanks very much

[Hiro Quester]

would again just like to say thank you to all those who have replied

I have put together a Spellscale Bard with just 8 levels in Bard. As i thought i would try and keep this as simple as possible

Str 10
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 18

are my stats

The next question i would like to ask is the Spellscale gets 3 Alternative racial Lvls at the cost of a 2nd levl spell is this worth taking ?
Also is there a must have feat i should take?

Again thanks in advance all

Mo

You might consider whether con might be more important than int. (Switching those stats might help.) You get a generous amount of skill points anyway. Con affects hit points and your fort saves.

The three alternative class features for spellscale mean you can swap out bard class abilities for different ones. As I understand it, you can pick and choose which of the three you select.

The first one gives you a boost to knowing about dragons, but you lose bardic knowledge (knowing about everything). Unless your campaign looks to be dragon-heavy, it's probably not worth it.

The second one trades inspire competence for the ability to add +1 Caster level to your fellow spellcasters. But you have to concentrate while doing this. (Melodic casting feat might enable you to use perform to concentrate.)

Whether you want that will depend on the composition of your party. If you have many spellcasters that might be worth it. When I played a bard it was very useful to inspire competence to add to skill checks for our rogue to find and disable traps, etc.

The third one lets you add to the D.C. of a suggestion. This one is actually pretty good. This one does cost a second level spell. But if you are the kind of bard using suggestion a lot then this might be worth it.


As far as feats go, melodic casting is good. But there are many good options. Dragon fire inspiration is probably a good one, if a spellscale has a draconian heritage.

JoshuaD's bard handbook (http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/#feats) has a good guide to feats.

[Mojax]

was going for a kind of know lots about lots hence the higher Int. score

ideas for Magic weapons any one? have 28k to spend

[Hiro Quester]

A badge of valor (1200gp, MIC) will be high on your list of magic items (for boosting inspire courage etc).

As will a Cha-boosting cloak of Charisma. 4000 gp for +2 (16000 for +4 later on)

Circlet of persuasion (4500 gp) increases your CHA-based skill checks.

a charm of Countersong (MIC, 400gp) lets you activate countersong as an immediate action. If you have countersong, you need this. Countersong is useless without it.

Masterwork musical instruments add to your perform check (+2 circumstance bonus). and some of them add bonuses to bardic music abilities. JoshuaD's Bard Handbook (http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/#mundane-instruments) explains them well.

A mithril chain shirt (1100 gp) is the usual light-armor for a bard (Mithral makes it have no chance of arcane spell-failure).

A crystal echoblade weapon (MIC) adds 1/2 your bard level as sonic damage to everything you hit. (If you are not going to melee, then a bow of songs does this for ranged attacks. But thats for when you are much richer.)

Some people like adding the harmonizing ability to a weapon (it maintains your bardic music for 10 rounds. I personally like the Lingering song feat instead, if you are likely to use more than one type of bardic music in an encounter (e.g. DFI and Inspire Courage). Then all of them, not just the most recent one, last 10 rounds after you stop singing.

If you use Inspire Greatness (Bard 9) then a Horn of Resilience is a good item to have (grant one recipient +50 temporary hps). This is in MIC. 5000 gp.

And if you have the badge and the horn, the helm of tactics completes the set. Its main effect is okay (gives allies extra flanking bonuses). But the collection benefit of having the full set enables you 1/day to grant a bonus move action to an ally; effectively letting your frontline fighter pounce and make a full attack). It's only 2000 gp.

Later on you will also want a Vest of legends (DMG2) to increase your effective bard levels for bardic music, and +5 to perform. But that's 16000, and probably for later when you have acquired more loot.

[Mojax]

A badge of valor (1200gp, MIC) will be high on your list of magic items (for boosting inspire courage etc).

As will a Cha-boosting cloak of Charisma. 4000 gp for +2 (16000 for +4 later on)

Circlet of persuasion (4500 gp) increases your CHA-based skill checks.

a charm of Countersong (MIC, 400gp) lets you activate countersong as an immediate action. If you have countersong, you need this. Countersong is useless without it.

Masterwork musical instruments add to your perform check (+2 circumstance bonus). and some of them add bonuses to bardic music abilities. JoshuaD's Bard Handbook (http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/#mundane-instruments) explains them well.

A mithril chain shirt (1100 gp) is the usual light-armor for a bard (Mithral makes it have no chance of arcane spell-failure).

A crystal echoblade weapon (MIC) adds 1/2 your bard level as sonic damage to everything you hit. (If you are not going to melee, then a bow of songs does this for ranged attacks. But thats for when you are much richer.)

Some people like adding the harmonizing ability to a weapon (it maintains your bardic music for 10 rounds. I personally like the Lingering song feat instead, if you are likely to use more than one type of bardic music in an encounter (e.g. DFI and Inspire Courage). Then all of them, not just the most recent one, last 10 rounds after you stop singing.

If you use Inspire Greatness (Bard 9) then a Horn of Resilience is a good item to have (grant one recipient +50 temporary hps). This is in MIC. 5000 gp.

And if you have the badge and the horn, the helm of tactics completes the set. Its main effect is okay (gives allies extra flanking bonuses). But the collection benefit of having the full set enables you 1/day to grant a bonus move action to an ally; effectively letting your frontline fighter pounce and make a full attack). It's only 2000 gp.

Later on you will also want a Vest of legends (DMG2) to increase your effective bard levels for bardic music, and +5 to perform. But that's 16000, and probably for later when you have acquired more loot.


where is Countersong from as i have yet to come across it? Same with the charm of countersong tried Magic of incarnum

[Hiro Quester]

Counter song is 1st level bardic music ability, enables allies affected by sonic effects to use your perform check instead of a saving throw.

But you have to have it already running, or ready an action to use it.

The charm of countersong is in MIC (Magic Item Compendium). It enables you to interrupt, as an immediate action, to start countersong, so you are able to save your friends from sirens or banshees without having to waste your turn singing just in case they try a sonic-based attack.

[Mojax]

Thanks for that sorry a noobie here

[Hiro Quester]

Any time.

I was once a noobie to 3.5, and my first character was a bard/sublime chord/ heartfire fanner/abjurant champion (party face, buffer, and backup melee/caster roles).

This forum helped me a lot in learning how to build an effective bard that was very fun to play.

For a noobie I thoroughly and wholeheartedly recommend you study JoshuaD's bard handbook (http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook). It's full of good advice and very comprehensive.

[Deadline]

...H-handbooks aren't source books...


They are to me


I have played 2nd edition and 1st only. I can use any book that is Wizards based no independent editions of anything if that helps

I think there's a miscommunication here, mainly due to the bolded portion. Back then, the additional class based sourcebooks routinely had the word "handbook" in them: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/images/44/16886.jpg

Starting with 3.0, that went away (Instead of a Fighter's Handbook, Monk's Handbook, and Paladin's Handbook, we got one book for all three called "Sword and Fist"), and 3.5 continued the trend (the 3.5 equivalent was "Complete Warrior"). In fact, I think the only official sourcebooks that have the word "Handbook" in them are the PHB, PHBII, and XPH (that's Player's Hanbook, Player's Hanbook II, and Expanded Psionics Handbook for the acronym challenged).

Nowadays, the guides that people write on the forums with tons of useful information on how to use various classes are also called "handbooks", but they are not the same thing as the old D&D sourcebooks from 2nd edition and earlier. They are simply codified repositories of all the information people are giving you here. So do check them out if possible. They'll give you the ins and outs of the class you are interested in. What's good, what to avoid, and where to find every feat, spell, or piece of equipment recommended. They are incredibly helpful.