Multi-classing questions...

[samcifer]

After a disastrous encounter with my lv. 1 sorcerer who nearly died 2 times in a single encounter from a machine/trap that caused unavoidable sonic damage, I'm considering multi-classing into bard for access to healing spells and higher hp. My questions for a Sorcerer 1/Bard 1 are...

HP: So I just roll a d8 for my increase in hp? (it sounds like it, but I want to be clear on it.)

Gaining spells: So a lv. 1 Bard gains 2 Cantrips and 4 lv. 1 spells. Would I get all of this as a Sorc 1/Bard 1, or would I get less spells from the bard class? The book is rather vague on this, so I need clarification.

Thanks in advance.

[Easy_Lee]

Yes to the HP.

You would gain the cantrips and spells, but your spell slot progression remains the same since bard is a full caster.

There's more information on multiclassing in the book. It's specific but a little finicky and easy to miss.

[samcifer]

Yes to the HP.

You would gain the cantrips and spells, but your spell slot progression remains the same since bard is a full caster.

There's more information on multiclassing in the book. It's specific but a little finicky and easy to miss.

So that would be 2 Cantrips and 4 lv. 1 spells from the Bard list of spells? Just want to be sure I understand correctly.

[smcmike]

So that would be 2 Cantrips and 4 lv. 1 spells from the Bard list of spells? Just want to be sure I understand correctly.

Yup, you've got it. The wording regarding learning new spells is terrible, but the intent is that you learn new spells as if you were a single-classed character gaining that level.

[Vingelot]

So that would be 2 Cantrips and 4 lv. 1 spells from the Bard list of spells? Just want to be sure I understand correctly.

You gain the cantrips from each class separately. So you get your sorcerer cantrips from the sorcerer cantrip list and additionally, you get your bard cantrips from the bard cantrip list. You also gain spells separately for each class (so a sorcerer/wizard knows all soorcerer spells of the list appropriate tho his level, and those wizard spells he has in his spellbook). You then prepare (or know) a number of spells according to the rules of each class. So far, every class is treated as if it was on a single-classed of it's level (imagine a level 1 socerer and a level 1 bard standing next to each other).

What's different with multi-classing is, that regarding spell slots, you calculate your spellcaster level, which in your case is done by simply adding the levels of both classes. You then gain the number of spell slots for your spellcaster level, rather than the character level or the individual class levels.

[bid]

After a disastrous encounter with my lv. 1 sorcerer who nearly died 2 times in a single encounter from a machine/trap that caused unavoidable sonic damage, I'm considering multi-classing into bard for access to healing spells and higher hp. My questions for a Sorcerer 1/Bard 1 are...

HP: So I just roll a d8 for my increase in hp? (it sounds like it, but I want to be clear on it.)

Gaining spells: So a lv. 1 Bard gains 2 Cantrips and 4 lv. 1 spells. Would I get all of this as a Sorc 1/Bard 1, or would I get less spells from the bard class? The book is rather vague on this, so I need clarification.

Thanks in advance.
Each class is handled separately, except for what MC tells you.
You are a level 1 sorcerer and receive all their features. (2 known + 4 cantrips)
You are a level 1 bard and receive all their features. (4 known + 2 cantrips)

MC tells you you don't get save proficiencies from bard, but you get light armor, 1 skill and 1 musical instrument.
MC tells you how to merge the spells slots: you get the same as any level 2 full caster.

[samcifer]

Each class is handled separately, except for what MC tells you.
You are a level 1 sorcerer and receive all their features. (2 known + 4 cantrips)
You are a level 1 bard and receive all their features. (4 known + 2 cantrips)

MC tells you you don't get save proficiencies from bard, but you get light armor, 1 skill and 1 musical instrument.
MC tells you how to merge the spells slots: you get the same as any level 2 full caster.

*nods* he's okay with me multi-classing, but insists I start as a sorcerer as we're starting over from level 1 as last week's session was just a test-session to feel out the group we just formed. I'll multi-class into bard once I hit lv 2.

[smcmike]

*nods* he's okay with me multi-classing, but insists I start as a sorcerer as we're starting over from level 1 as last week's session was just a test-session to feel out the group we just formed. I'll multi-class into bard once I hit lv 2.

Overall, it's probably better to start as Sorcerer and multiclass into Bard anyways, since Sorcerer starts out with proficiency in con saves, which you want. The only things you give up are a couple of guaranteed hit points, some weapon proficiencies, and two (of three) instrument proficiencies.

[Millstone85]

MC tells you
*nods* he's okay with me multi-classing, but insists I start as a sorcerer as we're starting over from level 1 as last week's session was just a test-session to feel out the group we just formed. I'll multi-class into bard once I hit lv 2.Uh, are you under the impression that MC is another acronym for DM? No, it is referring to the PHB's section on MultiClassing.

[samcifer]

Uh, are you under the impression that MC is another acronym for DM? No, it is referring to the PHB's section on MultiClassing.

Yeah, I'm at work right now and I keep being interrupted, so I missed that. Thanks for catching it.

[Zman]

There won't be a difference in your HP as a Bard or Dragon Sorcerer. Dragon Sorce is D6+1+Con, Bard is D8+Con.

A single level of Bard just to pick up Healing word and Cure Wounds could definitely be useful.

Treat spells known as separate for each class, but make sure to use the multiclass spell slots table, or just count yourself as an additional level of sorcerer for spell slots(not spells known etc).

[samcifer]

There won't be a difference in your HP as a Bard or Dragon Sorcerer. Dragon Sorce is D6+1+Con, Bard is D8+Con.

A single level of Bard just to pick up Healing word and Cure Wounds could definitely be useful.

Treat spells known as separate for each class, but make sure to use the multiclass spell slots table, or just count yourself as an additional level of sorcerer for spell slots(not spells known etc).

I'll likely only dip 2 levels into bard for the healing and inspiration dice. With dragon for my sorcery source (or whatever it's called, kind of rushing to type this before I have leave my desk), I get really good ac (15)

[RSP]

I'll likely only dip 2 levels into bard for the healing and inspiration dice. With dragon for my sorcery source (or whatever it's called, kind of rushing to type this before I have leave my desk), I get really good ac (15)

15 isn't really good AC, it's survivable if you stay in the back and avoid getting attacked, and have a way to avoid hits on the rare occasion they come your way (Cutting Words, Shield, etc).

A CR 1/2 Orc hits over 50% of the time. You need to find a way to increase that AC if you want to not stand in the back and cast, as that AC combined with either a Sorc or Bard's HPs won't last long on the frontline.

[samcifer]

15 isn't really good AC, it's survivable if you stay in the back and avoid getting attacked, and have a way to avoid hits on the rare occasion they come your way (Cutting Words, Shield, etc).

A CR 1/2 Orc hits over 50% of the time. You need to find a way to increase that AC if you want to not stand in the back and cast, as that AC combined with either a Sorc or Bard's HPs won't last long on the frontline.

There's no way for me to do that unless I spend the entire carrier of the sorc increasing his dex. That's the problem with the class. It's too low on defense. Wishing I wasn't stuck playing an arcane blaster. We're using the set stats of 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, and 10 and I'm playing a tiefling, so I have 18 CHA, 14 DEX, 12 CON, 12 WIS, 11 INT and 10 STR. The highest light armor I could get would only put me at 14 AC to the 15 AC I'm already getting so there's no way to increase it further as a spellcaster that I know of. All I can do is try to keep my distance to stay out of melee.

So for now, I have no choice but to take False Life for extra hp to counteract damage and shield for added defense, which means I have no alternative but to rely on cantrips for damage. Not liking this class as much as I had thought I would. It's way too brittle. Don't know how sorcs even survive battles with such low defenses and hp. Wishing I'd gone with a ranger instead as they can at least survive a fight. I might just have to let my character die in battle so I can go with a playable class instead.

[PeteNutButter]

There's no way for me to do that unless I spend the entire carrier of the sorc increasing his dex. That's the problem with the class. It's too low on defense. Wishing I wasn't stuck playing an arcane blaster. We're using the set stats of 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, and 10 and I'm playing a tiefling, so I have 18 CHA, 14 DEX, 12 CON, 12 WIS, 11 INT and 10 STR. The highest light armor I could get would only put me at 14 AC to the 15 AC I'm already getting so there's no way to increase it further as a spellcaster that I know of. All I can do is try to keep my distance to stay out of melee.

So for now, I have no choice but to take False Life for extra hp to counteract damage and shield for added defense, which means I have no alternative but to rely on cantrips for damage. Not liking this class as much as I had thought I would. It's way too brittle. Don't know how sorcs even survive battles with such low defenses and hp. Wishing I'd gone with a ranger instead as they can at least survive a fight. I might just have to let my character die in battle so I can go with a playable class instead.

If survival is all you want, a single level in fighter would net defense fighting style, shields, and medium armor for a 19 AC, 20 once you can afford half plate. Second wind also is a poor man's healing word (self only) that recharges on short rests. It's the most defensive option, for sure.

[Citan]

There's no way for me to do that unless I spend the entire carrier of the sorc increasing his dex. That's the problem with the class. It's too low on defense. Wishing I wasn't stuck playing an arcane blaster. We're using the set stats of 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, and 10 and I'm playing a tiefling, so I have 18 CHA, 14 DEX, 12 CON, 12 WIS, 11 INT and 10 STR. The highest light armor I could get would only put me at 14 AC to the 15 AC I'm already getting so there's no way to increase it further as a spellcaster that I know of. All I can do is try to keep my distance to stay out of melee.

So for now, I have no choice but to take False Life for extra hp to counteract damage and shield for added defense, which means I have no alternative but to rely on cantrips for damage. Not liking this class as much as I had thought I would. It's way too brittle. Don't know how sorcs even survive battles with such low defenses and hp. Wishing I'd gone with a ranger instead as they can at least survive a fight. I might just have to let my character die in battle so I can go with a playable class instead.
Hi there.

Well, you're not gonna like what I say but... This is partly your fault ;) because you decided to pick a race and stat allotation that would maximize your casting ability.

As of now your options...
1. Keep Tiefling: ask for DM if you can swap DEX and STR then instead of dipping Bard dip Paladin for two levels: first for immediate big boost in AC (heavy armor and shield, no weapon, you don't care about speed loss because you will stay in the back hurling cantrips), second for nice spells if you want them (Bless, Cure Wounds, Command).
So 2 levels dip, significant delay in Sorcerer progression.

2. Keep Tiefling: not just dip but multiclass into Bard, gritting your teeths until you reach the much desired Valor Bard 3: now you get great AC too (medium armor and shield) AND some of the best spells not available to Sorcerer (Heat Metal, Silence).
So 3 levels dip, very big delay in Sorcerer progression. If you are okay with that though, a safe and sound investment (I would wait until grabbing Bard 2 and 3 though, at least until you get Metamagic).

3. Switch Variant Human and grab Resilient Wisdom to get a 13 in WIS then take a single dip in Life (or any other you like really) Cleric instead: immediately boost your AC to 18 (don't don heavy armor, too low STR, but grab a shield) in addition to buffing yourself with Shield of Faith for the toughest fights, at least until you get good concentration control spells from Sorcerer (honestly, you could keep this tactic up to 3rd level spells: between Chromatic Orb, Shatter, Blindness, Shield, Earth Tremor, Mirror Image, Misty Step... You have ample choice of good non-concentration spells to use in combat).
So only 1 level dip, best bang for your buck, but it does mean a lesser casting stat.
(Well, maybe going Half-Elf could be enough honestly, I'll let you do the maths on stat allocation).

4. As others said already, dip Figther for medium armor and shield, but that's honestly also a significant loss (no added spell, no added slot). The "safest" option to survive "right now", the worst option otherwise imo.

Apart from that...
- As a Sorcerer, IIRC, you can learn either Minor Illusion or Mold Earth: both can be used to make shapeshift covers for at minimum get protection against ranged attacks, at maximum creating hiding places. More generally you should try to stay as often as possible in cover/hidden.
- If you don't have Firebolt it's really time to change: 120 feet reach goes a long way in staying out of danger. Having the counterpart Shocking Grasp is also nice to have against closing enemies (you could just Disengage or Dodge though).
- If you don't want to change your plans, Expeditious Retreat can be another tactic to allow you hit&run (of course with ranged cantrips). Or Fog Cloud to create a view disruption against archers/casters and more generally a hiding place.
- If/when you survive up to level 4, Spell Sniper can make you even more safe... But I understand it actually bothers you to restrict to faraway blasting so... This was just FYI. ;)

Beyond all this, if you wanted to play a grunt that can weave magic while laughing in the face of danger, indeed Sorcerer was not the best bet (neither would have been Wizard by the way -even Abjuration- -except Bladesinger-: at low level, low AC and d6 are deadly whatever way you look at it).

Most options would have revolved around...
a) Either Cleric (with all those fluff strings attached and kinda biaised spellist), only one starting with good to great AC...
b) Or a Variant Human
- Warlock/Bard with Moderately Armored starting feat;
-Paladin/Ranger/Fighter with Magic Initiate feat.

Seriously though, even a starting-stats-maximized raging Barbarian could die from a well-placed single hit at level 1 (well, while raging, probably a critical). So don't fret, have patience, and maybe talk with your friends to see what could improved in teamwork (mutual cover, buffs, coordinated advance etc).

[samcifer]

Hi there.

Well, you're not gonna like what I say but... This is partly your fault ;) because you decided to pick a race and stat allotation that would maximize your casting ability.

As of now your options...
1. Keep Tiefling: ask for DM if you can swap DEX and STR then instead of dipping Bard dip Paladin for two levels: first for immediate big boost in AC (heavy armor and shield, no weapon, you don't care about speed loss because you will stay in the back hurling cantrips), second for nice spells if you want them (Bless, Cure Wounds, Command).
So 2 levels dip, significant delay in Sorcerer progression.

2. Keep Tiefling: not just dip but multiclass into Bard, gritting your teeths until you reach the much desired Valor Bard 3: now you get great AC too (medium armor and shield) AND some of the best spells not available to Sorcerer (Heat Metal, Silence).
So 3 levels dip, very big delay in Sorcerer progression. If you are okay with that though, a safe and sound investment (I would wait until grabbing Bard 2 and 3 though, at least until you get Metamagic).

3. Switch Variant Human and grab Resilient Wisdom to get a 13 in WIS then take a single dip in Life (or any other you like really) Cleric instead: immediately boost your AC to 18 (don't don heavy armor, too low STR, but grab a shield) in addition to buffing yourself with Shield of Faith for the toughest fights, at least until you get good concentration control spells from Sorcerer (honestly, you could keep this tactic up to 3rd level spells: between Chromatic Orb, Shatter, Blindness, Shield, Earth Tremor, Mirror Image, Misty Step... You have ample choice of good non-concentration spells to use in combat).
So only 1 level dip, best bang for your buck, but it does mean a lesser casting stat.
(Well, maybe going Half-Elf could be enough honestly, I'll let you do the maths on stat allocation).

4. As others said already, dip Figther for medium armor and shield, but that's honestly also a significant loss (no added spell, no added slot). The "safest" option to survive "right now", the worst option otherwise imo.

Apart from that...
- As a Sorcerer, IIRC, you can learn either Minor Illusion or Mold Earth: both can be used to make shapeshift covers for at minimum get protection against ranged attacks, at maximum creating hiding places. More generally you should try to stay as often as possible in cover/hidden.
- If you don't have Firebolt it's really time to change: 120 feet reach goes a long way in staying out of danger. Having the counterpart Shocking Grasp is also nice to have against closing enemies (you could just Disengage or Dodge though).
- If you don't want to change your plans, Expeditious Retreat can be another tactic to allow you hit&run (of course with ranged cantrips). Or Fog Cloud to create a view disruption against archers/casters and more generally a hiding place.
- If/when you survive up to level 4, Spell Sniper can make you even more safe... But I understand it actually bothers you to restrict to faraway blasting so... This was just FYI. ;)

Beyond all this, if you wanted to play a grunt that can weave magic while laughing in the face of danger, indeed Sorcerer was not the best bet (neither would have been Wizard by the way -even Abjuration- -except Bladesinger-: at low level, low AC and d6 are deadly whatever way you look at it).

Most options would have revolved around...
a) Either Cleric (with all those fluff strings attached and kinda biaised spellist), only one starting with good to great AC...
b) Or a Variant Human
- Warlock/Bard with Moderately Armored starting feat;
-Paladin/Ranger/Fighter with Magic Initiate feat.

Seriously though, even a starting-stats-maximized raging Barbarian could die from a well-placed single hit at level 1 (well, while raging, probably a critical). So don't fret, have patience, and maybe talk with your friends to see what could improved in teamwork (mutual cover, buffs, coordinated advance etc).

Well, I DO have Firebolt as well as Create Bonfire, Acid Splash (to hit more than a single target in a cluster) and Frostbite. I'm planning on keeping my distance and attacking from range most of the time.

However, in light of our cleric player bailing out on us, I have been talking with the dm and am strongly in favor of swapping Draconic Bloodline for the Favored Soul sorcerous origin. True I'll lose out on extra defense and damage, but will gain access to the full list of cleric spells including healing, more fire spells and some other goodies like a defense boost as a bonus action.

True, I'll be squishier, but the healing spells will help some, esp. if I take Spare the Dying as one of my cantrips (I was having a hard time deciding which ones to go with besides Firebolt and Create Bonfire (the character is a pyromania, so fire spells are must-haves whenever possible).

At lv 4, I can always forgo boosting my charisma (already at 18 with the tiefling bonus) and instead go for the feat lightly armored to increase my dex by a point and gain proficiency with light armor to boost my defenses some to compensate for the loss of the +3 ac from not taking the Draconic Bloodline source.

It's not a perfect plan, but it will help me avoid multi-classing. At lv. 8, I can again forego the stat increase and take the Moderately armored feat to get a second pt. of Dexterity as well as proficiency with medium armor and shields, which should solve my AC issues. I know it's an ugly solution, but better than missing out on sorcerer levels.