Monster Grapple Damage Questions.

[Agrias]

I read few posts already about grapple damage but I still find it confusing (mainly cause the damage seems overpowered) so I wanted to ask on a specific monster example.

Lets take this monster:

Chuul (Large)
BAB/Grapple: +8/+17
Attack: Claw +12 melee (2d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +12 melee (2d6+5)
Str 20 (+5)
Special Attacks: Constrict 3d6+5, improved grab, paralytic tentacles

So does it work like this?:
1. Chuul makes Full Attack that is first Claw +12 (2d6+5) and second Claw +12 (2d6+5) if he hits with at least one of them he can start free grapple. (Q1: He can first do all his attacks and then choose to start grapple if any of them hits or he has to decide during each attack?)

2. If he won grapple check he deals Constrict damage 3d6+5.

3. Victim tries to free himself and fails: opposing grapple check was required (Q2: Constrict damage won't hit here again right?)

4. Chuul can now:
a) Attack Your Opponent: do a single Claw attack +12 -4 (grapple penalty) melee (2d6+5) lethal damage. (Q3: Always only one Attack in this case even if his BRB is +8 and lets him have two?)
b) Damage Your Opponent: do two grapple checks +17/+12 nonlethal or +13/+8 if he wants to deal lethal (Q4: Two because his BRB is +8 or is it still only one regardless?) and if he hits, do 1st Claw: Melee 2d6+5 (nonlethal) + Constrict +3d6+5 (lethal) and 2nd Claw: Melee 2d6+5 (nonlethal) + Constrict +3d6+5 (lethal). (Q5: I read it's like this on some post but the damage seems so overpowered. I thought the damage part should be like this: 1st Unarmed: +1d4+5 (Large Size) + 3d6+5 Constrict and 2st Unarmed: +1d4+5 (Large Size) + 3d6+5 Constrict)

[Necroticplague]

(Q1: He can first do all his attacks and then choose to start grapple if any of them hits or he has to decide during each attack?)
He has to decide during each attack.


3. Victim tries to free himself and fails: opposing grapple check was required (Q2: Constrict damage won't hit here again right?)
Yes, it does hit here. Every successful grapple check does damage.

(Q3: Always only one Attack in this case even if his BRB is +8 and lets him have two?)
Kind of.

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. So you could make two claw attacks at decreasing BaB.


(Q4: Two because his BRB is +8 or is it still only one regardless?)
See above, you can get two grapple checks to damage (assuming you use a full-round action).


(Q5: I read it's like this on some post but the damage seems so overpowered. I thought the damage part should be like this: 1st Unarmed: +1d4+5 (Large Size) + 3d6+5 Constrict and 2st Unarmed: +1d4+5 (Large Size) + 3d6+5 Constrict)
Damage Your Opponent option doesn't use your claws, it uses your UAS. You're actually right for this one. The builds you see that use logic similar to the former likely make use of the Beast Strike feat, which adds claw damage to grapple damage.

[Keld Denar]

For the most part, the grapple rules were written for PC on PC grappling since they are based on iterative attacks of which most monsters don't have. That's why it gets wonky. Technically, a creature with 2 claws and Imp Grab like a Chuul that has many HD (and thus a high BAB) can potentially end up making lots of maneuvers in a round because it makes the natural attacks which starts the grapple which then switches to iterative attacks which can allow for more actions. And it also doesn't parse well with a creature with more natural attacks than it's BAB because something like a medium sized octopus becomes a lot less fearsome when it grabs you than if it just slaps you. It also parses funny for creatures with large BABs and few claws because normal NA progression only allows you to make one attack per natural weapon, but nothing within the grapple rules stops you from using 3-4 grapple actions with the "attack with natural weapon" option. So while an advanced dire bear can normally only swipe you once with a claw, if it's holding you it can swipe you 3-4 times with a single claw, depending on it's BAB.

So yea, grappling with animals/monsters is weird.

[Crake]

Damage Your Opponent option doesn't use your claws, it uses your UAS. You're actually right for this one. The builds you see that use logic similar to the former likely make use of the Beast Strike feat, which adds claw damage to grapple damage.

That is incorrect. If you have improved grab and you use the "damage your opponent" option, it uses the damage of the attack that you used to initiate the grapple, in this case for a chuul, it would be it's claw, plus the constrict on a success.


If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).


Whenever the creature makes a successful grapple check to deal damage, it deals the damage indicated for the natural weapon that it used to make the improved grab. If the creature also has the constrict ability, it deals damage from the constrict attack in addition to damage dealt by the natural weapon used to grab.

Its worded really strangely, saying "if it doesn't constrict do X, if it does constrict also do Y" rather than just saying "Do X, if constrict also do Y" but basically on a successful grapple check to damage, the chull would do claw+constrict, and yes this is really strong. But remember, against 1, everyone else in the party is now attacking it's flat footed AC while it's grappling, unless it took -20 on it's grapple check to only grapple with the claw and not consider itself grappled, in which case it's much easier to escape.

Pretty clear wording in the rules compendium.


For the most part, the grapple rules were written for PC on PC grappling since they are based on iterative attacks of which most monsters don't have. That's why it gets wonky. Technically, a creature with 2 claws and Imp Grab like a Chuul that has many HD (and thus a high BAB) can potentially end up making lots of maneuvers in a round because it makes the natural attacks which starts the grapple which then switches to iterative attacks which can allow for more actions. And it also doesn't parse well with a creature with more natural attacks than it's BAB because something like a medium sized octopus becomes a lot less fearsome when it grabs you than if it just slaps you. It also parses funny for creatures with large BABs and few claws because normal NA progression only allows you to make one attack per natural weapon, but nothing within the grapple rules stops you from using 3-4 grapple actions with the "attack with natural weapon" option. So while an advanced dire bear can normally only swipe you once with a claw, if it's holding you it can swipe you 3-4 times with a single claw, depending on it's BAB.

So yea, grappling with animals/monsters is weird.

A monster attacking with a primary attack cannot make iterative attacks (or iterative grapples for that matter) that round unless he treated his primary attacks as secondary attacks. This also goes for grappling. The monster can either use his iteratives from bab to grapple, and then make his natural attacks, as both secondary, gaining -5, and in a grapple, for another -4 (attack modes that are already secondary don't get an additional -5, since they're already secondary), as well as dealing only half strength for damage, or it can simply perform it's normal attack routine with a -4 penalty across the board. If the creature has improved grab, the appendage used to initiate the grapple deals damage through a grapple check, rather than an attack roll, so some creatures, like a snake, would lack any other attacks to perform a natural attack routine next to a grapple routine.


3. Victim tries to free himself and fails: opposing grapple check was required (Q2: Constrict damage won't hit here again right?)

He does not take damage. Rules compendium changed the wording for improved grab and constrict to make it more clear what they meant (though I thought it was quite clear to being with), the damage is only dealt when making a successful grapple check to deal damage, ie, using the "damage your opponent" grapple option.


A creature that has this extraordinary special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check to deal damage. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability, it deals damage from the constrict attack in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.

[Agrias]

Improved Grab:
"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but it isn’t considered grappled itself."

This part above I missed before, so Chuul hits with his Claw, then he must choose:
a) use his whole body to grapple on +17
b) use his Claw to grapple on +17 -20 = -3

What happens to the -20 penalty in next round when he's already holding his victim with either body or claw?
Does it just go away completely and Chuul can grapple on +17/+12 and deal full Claw + Constrict damage?

Still I don't like the multiple grabs in a single round because of the high BAB.

The more I read the more problems I find ~_~

What about Giant Octopus then and the -20 rule?
Octopus hits, then decides to grapple and it has to choose to grapple with its whole body on + 15 or tentacle on +10 -20 = -10? I can't imagine Giant Octopus grappling someone with his body when it's attacking a ship for example and -10 if he tries to use tentacle that's pretty impossible?

[Crake]

Improved Grab:
"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but it isn’t considered grappled itself."

This part above I missed before, so Chuul hits with his Claw, then he must choose:
a) use his whole body to grapple on +17
b) use his Claw to grapple on +17 -20 = -3

What happens to the -20 penalty in next round when he's already holding his victim with either body or claw?
Does it just go away completely and Chuul can grapple on +17/+12 and deal full Claw + Constrict damage?

Still I don't like the multiple grabs in a single round because of the high BAB.

The more I read the more problems I find ~_~

What about Giant Octopus then and the -20 rule?
Octopus hits, then decides to grapple and it has to choose to grapple with its whole body on + 15 or tentacle on +10 -20 = -10? I can't imagine Giant Octopus grappling someone with his body when it's attacking a ship for example and -10 if he tries to use tentacle that's pretty impossible?

If you take the -20, it remains -20 for the entirety of the grapple, however there are 2 feats, multigrab and improved multigrab which reduce this penalty to -10, and then remove it altogether. While grappling with just the appendage, that appendage conducts the grapple on it's own, almost as if it's a separate entity, allowing, say, a giant octopus to grapple a creature in a tentacle and also attack with it's 7 other tentacles against any opponents in range, potentially grabbing more and grappling them each. With multigrab and improved multigrab, a giant octopus could potentially grab up to 8 enemies and constrict them each twice per round thanks to it's +6 bab, all while scuttling away and/or biting something, possibly one of the creatures in the grapple.

[Necroticplague]

That is incorrect. If you have improved grab and you use the "damage your opponent" option, it uses the damage of the attack that you used to initiate the grapple, in this case for a chuul, it would be it's claw, plus the constrict on a success.

Whoops, forgot about that section of Improved Grab.