Gishes in Pathfinder

[heavyfuel]

Is there a comprehensive guide to Gishes in Pathfinder like there's one for 3.5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook)?

Maybe there just isn't enough material to justify such guide. From a quick search I all I could find was Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer, and the Magus.

Any other PrCs that make for nice gishes?

[grarrrg]

Most 6th level caster base classes have at least one gish-like archetype.


Dragon Disciple having 7/10's casting makes it respectable (and the +4 STR offsets the 3/4 bab).

Hellknight Signifier only has 3/4 bab, but it has full casting and reduces Arcane failure in Armor.

There are a handful of other PrC's that have 3/4 or Full Bab and at least 7/10 spellcasting, but most of them are more "flavorful" than "generally useful".

[digiman619]

Well, Prestige Classes aren't anywhere near as big a part of builds, since most of the time you'd use archetypes and/or you'd use one of the many 2/3 casters that fit that concept (Magus and Warpriest spring to mind, especially since they have ways of augmenting your weapons to make them pseudo-full BAB). The need simply isn't as great in pathfinder.

[Hackulator]

Inquisitor can make a good gish.

[heavyfuel]

Well, Prestige Classes aren't anywhere near as big a part of builds, since most of the time you'd use archetypes and/or you'd use one of the many 2/3 casters that fit that concept (Magus and Warpriest spring to mind, especially since they have ways of augmenting your weapons to make them pseudo-full BAB). The need simply isn't as great in pathfinder.

I've been searching for an equivalent to the Enlightened Fist, and there seems to be none. The Magus gets an archetype that is monk-like, but none of the monk abilities and can't even flurry at the same time he casts spells. It's pathetic :smallannoyed:

I'd say they did a pretty bad job a filling specific niches


Most 6th level caster base classes have at least one gish-like archetype.

Is there any with monk-like abilities (that isn't that horrendus Magus archetype)


Inquisitor can make a good gish.

At first glance, sure. But does he have any way to use spells in combat such as a channel ability?

[Ssalarn]

It sounds like the Sacred Fist Warpriest (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classOptions/warpriest.html#sacred-fist-archetype) is probably what you're looking for.

[Hackulator]

At first glance, sure. But does he have any way to use spells in combat such as a channel ability?

A Gish is simply a character who augments physical combat with magic. Spell channeling is simply one way to do so, but not the only way. Plenty if Gishes don't do that.

[heavyfuel]

It sounds like the Sacred Fist Warpriest (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classOptions/warpriest.html#sacred-fist-archetype) is probably what you're looking for.

Is there anything not divine? I'm even willing to go psionic (even though that's 3rd party, because why should Paizo have bothered)

[Ssalarn]

Is there anything not divine? I'm even willing to go psionic (even though that's 3rd party, because why should Paizo have bothered)

There's not a lot on the arcane front, but in psionics you've got the Martial Kineticist for the psychic warrior, the Deadly Fist for the soulknife, the Enlightened Monk archetype, and probably a couple more that I can't think of at the moment.

There's the Bloody Knuckled Rowdy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo-bloodrager-archetypes/bloody-knuckled-rowdy-bloodrager-archetype/) for the Bloodrager, but that's a 4 level caster with reduced spellcasting which is... rough.

[heavyfuel]

There's not a lot on the arcane front, but in psionics you've got the Martial Kineticist for the psychic warrior, the Deadly Fist for the soulknife, the Enlightened Monk archetype, and probably a couple more that I can't think of at the moment.

There's the Bloody Knuckled Rowdy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo-bloodrager-archetypes/bloody-knuckled-rowdy-bloodrager-archetype/) for the Bloodrager, but that's a 4 level caster with reduced spellcasting which is... rough.

Will take a look at these in the morning, thanks

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I've been searching for an equivalent to the Enlightened Fist, and there seems to be none. The Magus gets an archetype that is monk-like, but none of the monk abilities and can't even flurry at the same time he casts spells. It's pathetic :smallannoyed:

I'd say they did a pretty bad job a filling specific niches



Is there any with monk-like abilities (that isn't that horrendus Magus archetype)

Or you can pick up a weapon like a real spellsword :smalltongue:
Sacred Fist is probably what you're looking for. You seem to want:

-unarmed build
-combat spells
-monk abilities

I'd say pick two, but while I'm familiar with ways to make a gish in PF (playing an occultist that's almost equaled the BSF in the one level I've been playing him), I'm less familiar with unarmed builds. The Esoteric isn't actually that bad, it's just squarely a downgrade of the magus. And, while you don't actually get Flurry of Blows, you can combine Spell Combat+Spellstrike to effectively get a extra attack.

[Peat]

Is there a comprehensive guide to Gishes in Pathfinder like there's one for 3.5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook)?

Maybe there just isn't enough material to justify such guide. From a quick search I all I could find was Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer, and the Magus.

Any other PrCs that make for nice gishes?

I don't think there is a guide. I know this because I keep checking to see whether anyone has ninja'ed my own attempts to produce such a thing, which keeps foundering on the issue that

a) I'm just not that strong on my mechanics and optimisation
b) Pathfinder have given multiclass Gishes fairly crappy support
c) Scaling damage buffs for most martial classes and less good buff spells is also not that great

There's a lot of single class Gish support. You can turn the Fighter and Rogue into spellcasters; there's a lot of 3/4 BAB 3/4 spellcasters, the Warpriest and Magus are outright built to gish hard and the rest are capable and more with the right archetype, etc.etc.

In terms of PrCs - there's the Eldritch Knight and the Arcane Archer for full BAB. There is also the Scar Seeker if you don't mind dropping a huge amount of feats on Prestigious Spellcaster to patch the half-spellcasting progression, although I can't really see why you would.

There's a number of pretty decent 3/4 BAB classes that drop combat goodies and you can make a build that takes 4 (or in some rare cases 8) levels before going into EK/AA to finish things off while still hitting 9th level spells/16 BAB at level 20. Problem is most of these are not accessible by level 6 without early entrance shenanigans, which is a killer. Also, you probably need one of these to finish off the build, because yay limited full BAB spellcasting classes.

Some good ones -

Hinterlander - Only takes 5 levels to get into, you drop the first spellcasting level but otherwise uninterrupted progression, three bonus feats in the first 5 levels and Imbue Arrow at level 7 (have to worship Erastil, archer useful only)

Hellknight Enforcer - 3rd level spells pre-req is annoying but useful if you want to cast spells in armour. Drops no spellcasting levels.

Dragon Disciple - Duh.

Spherewalker/Living Monolith - Both on d20pfrsd, 3.5 crossover material. Spherewalker is Desna only and has obnoxious feat requirements, but drops no spellcasting and offers a strong retroactive dice bonus at 4th. Living Monolith drops the first but lots of Enlarge Person help.

Evangelist - In at 6, only drop the first level, progresses one old class' abilities in full (i.e. sorcerer bloodlines). Have to be religious.

Dawnflower Anchorite - In at 6, only drops the first level, there's a self-buff/can advance some class abilities. Sarenrae only.

Stargazer - Onerous requirements for entry but you lose no spellcasting levels and the class abilities are alright. Have to worship Pulura.

None of them are that gobsmacking though.


The build options are basically

Get to 3rd level spells with one level of Martial, go Eldritch Knight, fill in a 3/4 that loses relatively little spellcasting/Arcane Archer if you can afford a lost level/like archer

Get to level 5 with 4 spellcaster levels and one level of martial, go DD/Hinterlander/Dawnflower/Evangelist, then mix and match that with EK or Arcane Archer


All in all, I really like gishes, and I really like going the mix and match route, but I don't think Paizo do. I can't see myself ever really putting any of these builds into practice.

[Kurald Galain]

I've been searching for an equivalent to the Enlightened Fist, and there seems to be none. The Magus gets an archetype that is monk-like, but none of the monk abilities and can't even flurry at the same time he casts spells. It's pathetic :smallannoyed:
While that particular archetype is pretty bad, a straightforward Magus can easily fight unarmed. You use the spell combat ability to gain an extra attack per round (similar to Flurry) and at higher levels you can get attacks from spells like (greater) Bladed Dash.

Here's lots more info on Magus variants (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus).

[Rynjin]

There's not a lot on the arcane front, but in psionics you've got the Martial Kineticist for the psychic warrior, the Deadly Fist for the soulknife, the Enlightened Monk archetype, and probably a couple more that I can't think of at the moment.

There's the Bloody Knuckled Rowdy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo-bloodrager-archetypes/bloody-knuckled-rowdy-bloodrager-archetype/) for the Bloodrager, but that's a 4 level caster with reduced spellcasting which is... rough.

For PsyWar it seems like the Meditant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/meditant) is more what he wants (as awkward as the archetype is, not a huge fan of its 8th level "Does nothing if you use unarmed strikes" ability) more than the Martial Kineticist. The Martial Kineticist is more a Psionic Magus than a "Gish with Monk stuff" which seems to be what OP wants more.

If you want a really weird one there's the Ectoplasmatist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/spiritualist/archetypes/paizo-llc-spiritualist-archetypes/ectoplasmatist-spiritualist-archetype/) a Spiritualist archetypes. One of my favorite things to come out of OA.

It's like a Psychic Magus that manifests invisible ectoplasmic weapons and armor and can spell combat. VERY easily fluffed as a Monk-like character (you punch at people and hit them at range with the shockwave if need be) and has a pretty solid spell list overall. Bonus Monk flavor for not needing the usual arcane caster accoutrements like material components. it's all based on your strength of will, man.

[Eldariel]

As was already mentioned, Prestigious Spellcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster/) is kind of big game to this end, making the various PRCs full casting at the cost of 2-4 feats (PF feat value is much lower than 3.5 feat value, though of course e.g. Vital Strike-line + Big Dice Natural Weapons [requires 16 BAB by 19 to pick up Greater Vital Strike] is an example of a reasonable combination, and there's always Sacred Geometry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry/) for free metamagic). Even plain EK is a reasonable build, though generally still loses 1 caster level to enter (I don't recall any good way to get full MWPs early; Arcane Archer gets them but can be entered by level 13 earliest as a straight-classed caster). Ranger 1/Wizard 6/EK 10/X 3 or something is probably fairly solid. As always, full casting before everything and prepared caster over spontaneous for earlier access to higher level spells.

Though even no BAB Foresight Wizard can melee reasonably with the various buffs if built for it. And Clerics/Druids/Summoners are still Clerics/Druids/Summoners (for divine casters in particular, Samsaran (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-samsaran/) is an insanely strong option for poaching buffs off half-caster lists superearly; a lower amount of useful arcane stuff not already on Wizard-list so less relevant there).

[mistermysterio]

Everything bloodrager (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjSv8Lk7_LVAhUDLmMKHeKsCBEQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.d20pfsrd.com%2Fclasses%2Fhybr id-classes%2Fbloodrager%2F&usg=AFQjCNEUmHIpR9oL5YYb4h6xSZI4MCi80A) is about being a gish - a sorcerer/barbarian hybrid

[Peat]

As was already mentioned, Prestigious Spellcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster/) is kind of big game to this end, making the various PRCs full casting at the cost of 2-4 feats (PF feat value is much lower than 3.5 feat value, though of course e.g. Vital Strike-line + Big Dice Natural Weapons [requires 16 BAB by 19 to pick up Greater Vital Strike] is an example of a reasonable combination, and there's always Sacred Geometry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry/) for free metamagic). Even plain EK is a reasonable build, though generally still loses 1 caster level to enter (I don't recall any good way to get full MWPs early; Arcane Archer gets them but can be entered by level 13 earliest as a straight-classed caster). Ranger 1/Wizard 6/EK 10/X 3 or something is probably fairly solid. As always, full casting before everything and prepared caster over spontaneous for earlier access to higher level spells.

Though even no BAB Foresight Wizard can melee reasonably with the various buffs if built for it. And Clerics/Druids/Summoners are still Clerics/Druids/Summoners (for divine casters in particular, Samsaran (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-samsaran/) is an insanely strong option for poaching buffs off half-caster lists superearly; a lower amount of useful arcane stuff not already on Wizard-list so less relevant there).

What are the buffs you'd recommend?

Also, why Ranger? I think the Gendarme archetype for Cavalier is probably the strongest Martial level available for a Gish that wants to be close to the front line - free feat to use on Power Strike, better skills than fighter, free horse. Swashbuckler or Unchained Rogue for a Dex build. And Fighter for archery.

[Eldariel]

Buffs, the obvious at least: Mage Armor, Shield (though getting the chance to cast it is a luxury vs. all but the most MM of mages), Enlarge Person, (Greater) Invisibility, (Greater Empowered) False Life, Mirror Image, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Blink, all Polymorph (particularly Dragonshapes), Heroism (nice duration), Mind Blank, Symbols in your equipment, etc. Non-core books have more.

Also, Phantom Steed and Lesser Planar Binding enable mounted tactics really well (Nightmare rocks and Spiritrd Charge is really good) and Quickened True Strike oes really well with one big hit like Spirited Charge or Vital Strike natural weapon. Also, Gish Telekinesis is really good and Summons make for great coordination.

Ranger mostly for skills (huge list, lots of points for 1 rank +4s including Stealth and Perception), Ranger Wands, BAB and MWPs. Not like you care about armor profs as an arcane caster anyways. Some added minor bonuses too. Feats don't feel important enough to bother with bonus Fighter ones in PF: eventually it just amounts to some crit nonsense or whatever. And if you ever take 2nd level (not that you should), free Rapid Shot skipping the feat tax.

[Peat]

I think that extra feat can be pretty important on a gish build, particularly if you're going for Archery/Dex/Reach. You're not getting many bonus ones, you'll pretty up spaffing at least 2 on getting spellcaster levels back, there's a good chance you're wasting another on a PrC pre-reqs, you'll probably put some feats into being a better spellcaster... I don't think the wands and extra couple of skill points are worth more. But YMMV, its not a huge difference, especially if going something like Hinterlander.

The pre-req free feat on level 2 is nice though.


Oh. One other thing. One of the Fame options for Guilds in Inner Sea Magic includes, by the rules, being able to gain caster levels up to your HD (first option is +1, second is up to +3). As written, that's spells known, spells per day, everything. One of the developers has said they didn't mean it that way but he's curious to see how it works that way. I don't think its officially errated so, with a kind GM, that might be on the table, and that really changes things a lot. I'm guessing on 95% of tables the answer is no though.

[rs2excelsior]

Mesmerist isn't bad as a gish either. same 3/4 bab and 2/3 spellcasting as magus, although with a somewhat more limited spell list. Still, though, lots of spells that straight up shut down enemies (very, very effective when the DM throws a single big enemy at the party with a low will save--an ogre at a low-level party with a mesmerist gets owned). Plus the hypnotic stare can do some fun stuff related to weapon damage.

I don't play super-optimized or at high levels very often, so your mileage may vary if you do prefer those playstyles.

[Beowulf DW]

Depends on what kind of Gish you want:
-Magus is pretty much the classic magic warrior, offering an excellent balance of martial and magical abilities.
-Bloodrager is shockingly effective despite the limited casting power.
-Warpriest is the divine version of the Magus (make it a Warpriest of Nethys and the distinction blurs quite a bit, though).
-Hunter is an unorthodox choice, but can still fit the definition, and it's the best way to make use of teamwork feats.
-Bards can make decent spellblades depending on archetype.
-Skald is basically Bard's angry cousin and does even better in this role.
-Occultist, and certain archetypes of the Spiritualist can also fill the role of "Magical Ass-kicker."

And those are just the ones that come "prepackaged" as it were.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Magus is one of the best at blending spells and combat. Warpriests are amazing at self-buffing, and bloodragers can pull some neat tricks, eventually getting the ability to cast a spell as a free action by entering rage, otherwise working as 'barbarians with magic powers'. The others fall into the category of 'hit stuff and also cast spells'.

[Treblain]

A Hexcrafter magus with the Hex Strike feat is a good justification for an unarmed build, though Hex Strike using swift actions is annoying since Magi need them for other things. Monk/brawler/fighter dip might be worth it.

A wizard that takes the Variant Multiclassing for Battle Oracle's Skill At Arms revelation can get into Eldritch Knight at level 6 with no multiclassing for proficiencies. That plus Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster will take almost all of your feats and save two caster levels.

If you're okay with listing more non-full casters, since PF loves them:

Arcane Duelist bard: gets casting in armor, somatic components with weapons, adds temporary weapon enhancements, and bonus feats.

Questioner Investigator gets 6th level int-based bard casting and considerable attack and damage boosts from Studied Combat, Combat Inspiration, and Inspired weapon enchantment.

Occultist with the Trappings of the Warrior panoply is notable for having access to full BAB and 6th level casting, not actually arcane (so no arcane spell failure) but its spell list gets a lot of staple wizard/sorcerer spells and the focus powers are very strong on their own.

Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue: it's a rogue with 6th level wizard casting. That's it. No armor proficiencies, though.

Honorable mention: The Iron Caster (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G1oa8hQif08qqRdEyMnDVVFAoBN_53uhNcJc4wArQxs/edit#heading=h.6k25i4jpha2s): A pure fighter that uses a combination of several advanced weapon training abilities to grant itself on-the-fly access to spells including Fly, Lightning Bolt, Dimension Door, Bestow Curse, and Dispel Magic.

Sorry for listing a lot of stuff without linking to it.

[Florian]

Any other PrCs that make for nice gishes?

I think the definition of what could be considered a "gish" changed from 3.5E to PF. It´s less 16 BAB and 9th casting, but rather "cast and fight" at the same time, meaning superior economy of actions.

That leaves 3 base classes that qualify:
- Bloodrager
- Magus
- Warpriest

Going from there, some classes have archetypes or class choices that utilize the same mechanics:
- Spiritualist (Phantom Blade)
- Oracle (Ascetic Mystery)

Going further, there´re VMC options:
- VMC Magus gives Spellstrike at 11th.
- VMC Oracle gives Oracular Spellstrike at 11th.
- VMC Monk gives WIS to AC and progressive Unarmed Strike.

Now we can actually do an near infinite combination to go "gish" with.
- Occultist VMC Magus (Battle and Wizard Panoply) is pretty decent.
- Paladin/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight VMC Magus is a classic.
- Magus VMC Monk is the better Enlightened Fist
- And so on....

[Eldariel]

I think that extra feat can be pretty important on a gish build, particularly if you're going for Archery/Dex/Reach. You're not getting many bonus ones, you'll pretty up spaffing at least 2 on getting spellcaster levels back, there's a good chance you're wasting another on a PrC pre-reqs, you'll probably put some feats into being a better spellcaster... I don't think the wands and extra couple of skill points are worth more. But YMMV, its not a huge difference, especially if going something like Hinterlander.

The pre-req free feat on level 2 is nice though.

Ranger Wands have some decent stuff (though admittedly, since the best downtime healing is Arcane because reasons, that part is less crucial - e.g. Lesser Restoration is still there tho) and getting extra class skills is quite nice with the extra +3 for one rank.

Though yes, less crucial than in 3.5 due to the lack of 4x points on level 1. However, you only need few feats in PF for competency and there isn't that big of a difference between having multiple lines vs. just basics: one good option suffices.



Oh. One other thing. One of the Fame options for Guilds in Inner Sea Magic includes, by the rules, being able to gain caster levels up to your HD (first option is +1, second is up to +3). As written, that's spells known, spells per day, everything. One of the developers has said they didn't mean it that way but he's curious to see how it works that way. I don't think its officially errated so, with a kind GM, that might be on the table, and that really changes things a lot. I'm guessing on 95% of tables the answer is no though.

Yeah, that opens up a lot of good stuff - Ranger 2/Wizard 6/EK 10/Archmage 2 with full casting. Makes Pally and even Sorcerer-builds playable, if needlessly delayed (since PF still hates spontaneity). A bit too easy if you ask me though.


I think the definition of what could be considered a "gish" changed from 3.5E to PF. It´s less 16 BAB and 9th casting, but rather "cast and fight" at the same time, meaning superior economy of actions.

That leaves 3 base classes that qualify:
- Bloodrager
- Magus
- Warpriest

Going from there, some classes have archetypes or class choices that utilize the same mechanics:
- Spiritualist (Phantom Blade)
- Oracle (Ascetic Mystery)

Going further, there´re VMC options:
- VMC Magus gives Spellstrike at 11th.
- VMC Oracle gives Oracular Spellstrike at 11th.
- VMC Monk gives WIS to AC and progressive Unarmed Strike.

Now we can actually do an near infinite combination to go "gish" with.
- Occultist VMC Magus (Battle and Wizard Panoply) is pretty decent.
- Paladin/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight VMC Magus is a classic.
- Magus VMC Monk is the better Enlightened Fist
- And so on....

Well, I wouldn't say anything changed in the definition, just that it got easier to combine spells with combat, making the option nore appealing. However, I don't think that in any way speaks against traditional AD&D buff + fight Gish (that can also cast if desired). They are quite strong and as always, pick up on higher levels compared to Gish in cans, while Gish in cans shine on early levels. Certainly, 9th level spells are still 9th level spells and getting 5ths/6ths means huge gamechangers (and Telekinesis is still awesome with BAB).