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DiscipleofBob
2007-08-11, 12:44 AM
Is there any book/homebew that provides rules from ship-to-ship combat.

I'd like to start a pirate campaign pretty soon, and I'd like to incorporate actual ship combat, not just boarding the other ship and firing.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-11, 12:49 AM
Stormwrack. About as good as you can get without getting a massive headache. This book is practically required for a nautical campaign.

Vehicle combat in general also gets a section in the Arms & Equipment Guide, which is much less stylized, but rather more annoying to run.

TheOOB
2007-08-11, 12:52 AM
The general rule I follow is ship-to-ship combat should be handled primarily via boarding actions, and success should be determined by how well the PCs did. Heroes of Battle applies quite well to most odd encounters like this, you should check it out.

Given I have not read stormwrack, but I hear its quite good.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-11, 12:58 AM
The general rule I follow is ship-to-ship combat should be handled primarily via boarding actions, and success should be determined by how well the PCs did. Heroes of Battle applies quite well to most odd encounters like this, you should check it out.

Given I have not read stormwrack, but I hear its quite good.

I want to have actual combat between ships though, not just boarding. Like with cannons and stuff.

I have A&E, but not Stormwrack. I'd hate to have to go out and buy a whole new book for a campaign that'll only be 4 or 5 sessions, but if it's necessary...

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-11, 01:01 AM
I solve this problem through rampant mooching, myself.

Or failing that, Bittorrent.

TheOOB
2007-08-11, 01:14 AM
I want to have actual combat between ships though, not just boarding. Like with cannons and stuff.

The thing is, D&D isn't the system for this. D&D is about small scale combat between a party of adventurers and their foes, once you get to ship to ship battles the rules start to fall apart.

Leon
2007-08-11, 01:25 AM
Stormwrack is the Word on anything involving ship combat (and a good book overall).
Heros of Battle i belive gives scope to large conflicts (i've not read it personally, only picked up bits from here or there)

BardicDuelist
2007-08-11, 02:43 AM
Since Stormwrack seems to be getting quite a nudge, I think I should explain why the ship to ship combat there is so good.

It has a narative combat system which both uses mechanics for ships firing upon each other (and rules for bombards, which are very similar to cannon), and a simple moving system. A&EG's movement system was very difficult to impliment, but the narative system is wonderful.

Basically, it is a series of opposed rolls by the captains (or helmsmen, or whomever really) which determine who has the advantage. The complications of the movement are considered taken care of (so that the DM and players do not have to have great knowledge of nautical maneuvers). Basically, whomever is running the ships describes the action and rolls to see if he can pull it off. If he loses the roll, it generally means that his opponent out maneuvered him.

It also has rules for boarding.

When players board the ship (which will generally happen at least once) I recommend two things. If it is a small ship with a small crew, treat it as a normal combat, if it is a large ship with a big crew, treat it as a dungeon.

The best advice I can give is to have the players on a ship that does not
need a large crew. The PCs lose their individuality and control. It also makes combat more difficult to run.

Even the standard sailing ship only needs about seven people to run it. That is managable for the PCs, and you can have some great NPC interaction while not detracting from the players too much.

Damionte
2007-08-11, 04:01 AM
If you insist on doing long range combat between the ships themselves, then you'll need to either come up with your own ships and weapons, or use magic.

The ships most often seen in D&D are not designed for ship toship combat. The typical D&D era is pre gun poweder which is when the type of ship to ship duels you see in the colonial era and beyond.

The ship to ship weaponry of the typical D&D era is designed to kill the crew. The ships couldn't mount anything big enough to sink the enemy ship. About the best they could do was screw up the other ships rigging, mess up the sails, or start a fire.

In my home game I've gotten around this by using magic items to simulate cannons. With a few "super power" nations that have enough resources and wealth to actually field navies which include a few ships with this technology.

Having run pirate campaigns in the past I will warn you of one thing though. Your players are not goign to like whatever you come up with. They're goign to be bore and will impatiently sit through whatever clunky rules you came up with until the ships get close together and they actually have a chance to DO soemthing.

Long range ship to ship combat doesn't give everyone in the party enough to do. You may get 1 or 2 guys abel to do something. Maybe one guy is steering, or is the captain or something, and get's to make decisions about which Tack to drive the ship on, but anyone not directly in control of the ship or it's weapons is just sittign there waiting for the stupid ship combat to be over so they can get back to playing D&D.

The Prince of Cats
2007-08-11, 04:31 AM
There is a book called "Corsair" by Adamant Entertainment (DriveThru RPG Link (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=2593&it=1)) which I picked up out of curiosity. They are not a bad set of rules, with rules for ballistae as well as cannon, though the focus is certainly on 'Pirates of the Caribbean' type sea-battles more than traditional D&D.

Icewalker
2007-08-12, 01:42 AM
Well.


I have spent several months now working on my own system for ship-to-ship combat, for a seabased campaign.

Several people suggested Stormwrack to me, I found it, looked through it, and decided I didn't really like and continue to work on my own. The stormwrack system involves single people firing cannons like a normal ranged weapon against ships with a normal AC. It deals damage to pieces of the ship until it sinks. It's not a terrible system, although I found it a little to unrealistic for my taste.

Damionte
2007-08-12, 07:07 AM
Well.


It's not a terrible system, although I found it a little to unrealistic for my taste.

Unrealistic compared to what? What do you mean? That's how ship to ship combat works. You shoot at the other ship knocking holes in it till it falls aprt. What part of that seems unrealistic to you?

Maybe it will help if you explain the tech/magic level you're at. What weapons to the ship in the campaign have? How big are the ships we're talking about? If you had to tie it to a real world era, about what years would it be akin too?

What's your system like now?

Icewalker
2007-08-12, 02:15 PM
Well for one thing it isn't finished.

You don't just shoot at another ship and put holes in it. At least, it isn't that simple. The actual combat of Stormwrack isn't the huge problem, the big issue I have with it is the movement and loopholes in normal dnd that would let a few PCs slaughter fleets.

I am slightly shaky on the Stormwrack system because I didn't study it intensely, so there may be mistakes in here:


I didn't like the technology set, so mine is moved forward a very tiny step. There are cannons, and the richest people around can afford pistols. That's the only difference there really. I'm actually not sure about the years, but it's The Age of the Sail, time period of the Napoleonic wars. Ship size is anything from cutters (small ships, crew in the area of 10-20, single mast single deck, only a few guns) to First-Rate ships of the line: 3 masted, 3 gun decks, hugely massive crew numbering close to 1000, I think. I haven't gotten that far yet in ship size.

They only have 'bombard' and 'heavy bombard', I'd prefer a little more variety, as the actual ships in the age of the sail had. Long nines, 9-pounder, 12-pounder, 18-pounder, 24-pounder, and 32-pounder. I also didn't like the damage of bombards. A cannonball to the chest should kill, ie highest rolls should be dealing something in the range of 20 damage on a 12 or 18 pounder.

Also, I like my systems to be complicated. This is going to come off extremely complicated, but I find it a little more fun and realistic for the time.

one person CANNOT operate a cannon. Based off size of cannon, it can take up to 5 or so people.

I dislike their movement system. They have ships moving up to 90 degrees against the wind. Ships can get a lot closer: they can move in the general direction of the wind, although not straight at it. I'm setting my movement system to be split into 45 degree angles, and the closest you can get to the wind is 45 degrees off.

Because of this 90 degrees off thing, I'm pretty sure Stormwrack has no rules for tacking, ie turning through the wind. This was an important part of maneuvering.

When cannons are fired at the side of a ship, it hits the side and damages it somewhat. When a cannon is fired at the front or back of a ship, they rake across the entire ship and deal massively more amounts of damage. If I remember correctly, Stormwrack has nothing on raking fire. I also think that if they did, their movement system would allow each ship to spend their turn repositioning and firing a raking volley every turn. Mine doesn't unless the ship moving is extremely maneuverable.


Ship to ship combat does not work in a normal dnd campaign. There are several simple powers of classes that utterly annihilate ships:

Druid, wild shape: dolphin, warp wood, warp wood, warp wood, no more armada.

Sorcerer/wizard: meteor. No more ship. As well as almost any other fire spell.


Also, seeing how important it was, I decided to make a sailor class instead of a profession. Use of sails is one feat that sailors get at first level as a bonus feat, so is use of cannons. Instead of using your attack bonus to shoot at ships (because of course a fighter has better aim than a sorcerer...) every 4 levels there is a feat that gives +2 to hit with cannons, and that is your only plus to hit, short of spells cast by the shipmage, which is replacing other arcane casters, probably entirely.

Normal range increments wouldn't work very well, because with a 9-pounder cannon you've got about a 4500 foot range, which means each increment would be 450. two ships firing at each other from 50 feet away would be the same as two ships firing from 400 feet. I didn't like this, so I made/am making an exponential range increment for cannons.

Stormwrack had nothing on shrapnel (I think...). When a ship is bombarded by cannon fire, the cannonballs are not what hurts the crew. Every time a cannonball busts through the hull, huge splinters of wood shrapnel from the hull hit people. My cannonball system involves a 1/10 chance of hitting a person, 1/10 chance of hitting a cannon, and 0-3 splinters of shrapnel hitting crew.


While I think I'm aiming for a level of realism a few steps above normal dnd combat, I am trying to keep it a little simpler that real life. I'm ignoring current, because when you have to determine movement by current, wind, and ship maneuverability that just sucks. However I do want to have a damage-weakened system. Once a ship sustains heavy damage, it doesn't function as well as an intact ship.

I believe Stormwrack has nothing on firing at the opposing ships sails and rigging, and though I'm not sure I think it might not have had chainshot and grapeshot either, and those are just fun.

Were-Sandwich
2007-08-12, 02:25 PM
THe sit-next-to-each-other-firing-guns-dieways model of ship-to-ship combat doesn't work in a world where even low-level magic is available. Flying takes you out of arc of most ship-mounted weapons, then fireball the rigging and sails, then warp-wood or passwall for finish.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-12, 02:53 PM
I was just going to get around the magic thing by saying that most decent ships were made of some sort of magic material which gave the ship some SR.

All-and-all, unless I get Stormwrack, I think there've been enough issues presented in this thread that I could homebrew something fairly competent.

Hallavast
2007-08-12, 03:35 PM
Well for one thing it isn't finished.

You don't just shoot at another ship and put holes in it. At least, it isn't that simple. The actual combat of Stormwrack isn't the huge problem, the big issue I have with it is the movement and loopholes in normal dnd that would let a few PCs slaughter fleets.


Oh yeah, definitely. High Level PCs are crazy. They can level castles and slay dragons. They can annihilate armies of people at once. But when you put those armies of people on boats and they still die, that's going too far! :smallamused:

Alleine
2007-08-12, 06:38 PM
It doesn't take high level PC's to sink a fleet. Any wizard with fire spells could do major damage, just toss a few fireballs at each ship, suddenly they're all busy trying to put out the fire. Druid could wildshape and either start casting from underwater or start smacking the bottom of the ship till there's hole, not much non-water breathers can do versus that.

Fighters too, I assume most fighters carry a bow, or pretty much any character with a bow could fire fire arrows at a ship. Boats are big, less AC, and with fire, all you need to do is hit a sail or even land it on the deck, no damage needed.

This sounds pretty cool, I hope you don't mind if I theft any ideas from you for future campiagns.

dr.cello
2007-08-12, 07:19 PM
Also, I like my systems to be complicated. This is going to come off extremely complicated, but I find it a little more fun and realistic for the time.


That's the part where you're going to lose everyone. The trick is to find a balance between realism and simplicity, because nobody wants to learn a complicated combat system that their character, who was probably not built for ship-to-ship engagements, probably isn't even terribly proficient at. When I think of a nautical campaign, I think of trading a few salvos, then closing to a boarding action. Stormwrack's system is perfect for this.



I dislike their movement system. They have ships moving up to 90 degrees against the wind. Ships can get a lot closer: they can move in the general direction of the wind, although not straight at it. (snip)
Because of this 90 degrees off thing, I'm pretty sure Stormwrack has no rules for tacking, ie turning through the wind. This was an important part of maneuvering.


Stormwrack has no rules for maneuvering. Stormwrack has rules for exchanging a few broadsides and closing to boarding. The entire point of the system is avoiding forcing people to learn how to tack on a D20 system. It's to simplify nautical combat so it doesn't turn into learning a new, clunky, and needlessly complicated system just so you can have a realistic sea battle (especially since most characters aren't going to be doing anything that useful--"I reload the cannon again").


Druid, wild shape: dolphin, warp wood, warp wood, warp wood, no more armada.

Warp wood apparently does not work on a sufficiently large scale. Stormwrack has a little section describing how magic works in ship combat, actually. Talks about various spells.



Also, seeing how important it was, I decided to make a sailor class instead of a profession. Use of sails is one feat that sailors get at first level as a bonus feat, so is use of cannons. Instead of using your attack bonus to shoot at ships (because of course a fighter has better aim than a sorcerer...) every 4 levels there is a feat that gives +2 to hit with cannons, and that is your only plus to hit, short of spells cast by the shipmage, which is replacing other arcane casters, probably entirely.

A whole class? I thought you were going for realistic, here. Your average deckhand is basically unskilled labor, a week or two of training and you're a sailor now, son. You're also going to severely reduce the characters' flexibility. Instead of scouts, rogues, swashbucklers, and fighters in various combinations, you're going to end up with everyone as sailors. Which is sort of a shame, because those classes are all really good for a no- (or low-) magic pirate campaign. (Rangers with the no-magic variant also work well.) Especially if you go down the traditional pirate story route, and include treasure hunting, ancient lost temples, etc.

I wouldn't make it a feat, either. While Profession (sailor) might not be the best possible skill to use, it is the easiest; what I did in the system I was briefly retooling is add a few skills to the skill list (I believe Navigate and Pilot, possibly a couple others), and deciding which classes got what. But profession(sailor) keeps it simple. You don't have to dedicate your entire allotment of skills to being a good sailor. You can put four or five ranks in over the course of time and still contribute to the crew overall.

And I wouldn't make it a feat. In Star Wars I hate having to spend a feat on being useful in ship combat--I have other feats I'd like to use, thanks. And I'm not going to multiclass just for free feats.




While I think I'm aiming for a level of realism a few steps above normal dnd combat, I am trying to keep it a little simpler that real life. I'm ignoring current, because when you have to determine movement by current, wind, and ship maneuverability that just sucks. However I do want to have a damage-weakened system. Once a ship sustains heavy damage, it doesn't function as well as an intact ship.

Also featured in Stormwrack.


I believe Stormwrack has nothing on firing at the opposing ships sails and rigging, and though I'm not sure I think it might not have had chainshot and grapeshot either, and those are just fun.

I know you can do a called shot on segments of the ship, and the mast probably counts as one (I would have to look it up, and remember having problems finding that bit.) And there's nothing keeping you from making rules for grapeshot or chainshot.

Inyssius Tor
2007-08-12, 07:27 PM
Fighters too, I assume most fighters carry a bow, or pretty much any character with a bow could fire fire arrows at a ship. Boats are big, less AC, and with fire, all you need to do is hit a sail or even land it on the deck, no damage needed.

... um, are you saying that PC's are overpowered because they have flaming arrows? Seriously?

dr.cello
2007-08-12, 07:40 PM
There's also rules in Stormwrack which explain that ships are not floating tinderboxes that burst into flames as soon as something touches them.

Hurlbut
2007-08-12, 07:54 PM
There's also rules in Stormwrack which explain that ships are not floating tinderboxes that burst into flames as soon as something touches them.A "floating tinderbox" require a highly voilative cargo or be heavily patched in tar pitch or such.

dr.cello
2007-08-12, 08:46 PM
Right. And a ship that plans on going into combat is probably going to wet itself down so it's hard to catch fire. Even the highly volatile cargo is not going to contribute to the hull catching on fire. Sailors and shipbuilders did, in fact, consider that fire was a danger at sea and took measures to deal with it. It's not 'oh no, someone has found my weakness! Foil't!'

Alleine
2007-08-12, 09:02 PM
... um, are you saying that PC's are overpowered because they have flaming arrows? Seriously?

Where did I say overpowered? I said it doesn't take high level PC's to take out ships easily. Flaming arrows kinda help with that.

Also, I realize that ships are not going to flare up like lighterfluid when hit with one flaming arrow. Seriously, you're in the ocean so that makes it harder, but generally you wont soak all of your sails so they don't catch fire. And the entire ship isn't going to be flame-proof more often than they are, so a couple rounds of fire would concievably cause a little worry on the other ship.

dr.cello
2007-08-12, 09:05 PM
And the other ship can't do the same thing to you?

Alleine
2007-08-12, 09:13 PM
Did I ever say that?

Sheesh, all I was trying to do was say how non-high level PC's could, while maybe not smash entire fleets into dust, cause considerable trouble to an enemy navy by way of ship sinking!

Lord Tataraus
2007-08-12, 09:16 PM
Just a note on ships being "floating tinderboxes".

Stormwrack lists the spells that do and do not start fires, very few fire spells do.
Ship decks most likely will be very wet from water constantly washing over and even a light wind can cause large enough waves to soak the deck, same goes for most of the ship (save sails).
In battle, decks are covered in a layer of sand to 1) absorb blood, 2) give better grip, and 3) stop fires.

In short, a ship rarely catches on fire, with the exception of sails which can be replaced and extinguished easily with magic.

****

I have used Stormwrack's ship-to-ship battle system in a campaign much like your own and was very satisfied with it. The setting was very low magic and in a colonial age (i.e. cannons, pistols, muskets, etc.) The system was complex enough to work and simple enough to be enjoyable, and the party had fun blowing an imperial warship's masts off. Oh! and by the way, a light bombard requires a 4 person crew and a heavy bombard requires an 8 person crew or you take massive time and attack penalties. And you need someone who can make at least a DC 15 profession (siege engineer) check per bombard if you want to fire it. I lowered the crews slightly since I was using smaller, more advanced cannons, but it is very realistic.

Of course, part of the problem with a naval campaign is that you need a lot of NPC sailors to run a descent ship in battle. I would suggest non-boarding battles to be run with 1-3 players, each taking a lead position or with a large group, have fleet with each player have his/her own ship to command.

dr.cello
2007-08-12, 09:34 PM
I think flaming arrows are a lot more incendiary in movies than they could realistically be expected to be. You seem to be stuck on 'floating tinderbox' mode. Okay, so imagine I shoot a ship with a flaming arrow, and it ignites it. The whole sail is probably not going to catch fire immediately. And if I'm the captain of a ship that sees flaming arrows coming at me and I'm not completely incompetent, I'd be keeping an eye on those arrows and having someone douse the fires as soon as they start. This, of course, is assuming that the arrow doesn't just go through the sail and fly out the other side. (Forgive me for not being an expert on incendiary arrows.)

It's hard to catch some things on fire when you're trying. It takes a while to get a decent fire going. A ship is probably not going to have a lot of dry wood on it waiting to burn. You're pretty unlikely to catch anything on fire in any significant way if it's not sitting there waiting to burn--and sailors don't want their ships to burn, so they tend to avoid that condition.

Alleine
2007-08-12, 09:54 PM
You seem to be stuck on 'floating tinderbox' mode.

Nononononono! I was simply saying that fire arrows would be useful in ship to ship combat. As opposed to regular arrows which would be good only for killing sailors. Fire arrows could kill and <i>potentially</i> start fires. Of course, there's always a chance of special arrows alchemically treated with various things. . .

I humble myself before everyone's much vaster experience with ships.

dr.cello
2007-08-12, 10:11 PM
All right, I got you. As I said, I don't really know how incendiary arrows worked (I'm not even sure if they were really historically used). I'd say that a flaming arrow would provide, at worst, a minor nuisance that might start a problem if left unchecked. Molotov cocktails (or alchemist's fire) would probably be a lot more deadly, though you'd have to be closer to use them effectively. I just don't see fire weapons being useful to make a ship sink or swim, as it were.

PyritePyro
2007-08-12, 11:39 PM
A "floating tinderbox" require a highly voilative cargo or be heavily patched in tar pitch or such.

Uhm, bascially wooden sailing ships ARE floating tinder boxes. But that's offset by the fact that warfare in that era was based around the idea of stealing the ships, instead of sinking them. But, in a pinch...

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-13, 12:13 AM
I think the operative word is floating, not tinderboxes. They tend to be damp. And besides, you know how hard it is to get a fire going even on specially treated wood without a lot of attention? You can't just fling a torch tons of damp, sealed wood and expect it to instantly burst into flame.

Dean Fellithor
2007-08-13, 12:33 AM
I think the operative word is floating, not tinderboxes. They tend to be damp. And besides, you know how hard it is to get a fire going even on specially treated wood without a lot of attention? You can't just fling a torch tons of damp, sealed wood and expect it to instantly burst into flame.


but the sails have been historicly proven to be vulnerable to tou flames, if you held a torch to the Sails for 7 or so seconds (not in a storm) they would set alight.

Hurlbut
2007-08-13, 12:09 PM
Uhm, bascially wooden sailing ships ARE floating tinder boxes. But that's offset by the fact that warfare in that era was based around the idea of stealing the ships, instead of sinking them. But, in a pinch...That is because by the time of the Golden age of Sailing, it was STILL extremely difficult to sink a ship until the advent of the exploding shell around 1860's. The few instances of the warships sinking were either caused by a lucky shot/fire spreading to a gunpowder hold (fires can be still started on a sailing warship, they're just not very intense and can be easily controlled if caught) or storm battering their holed hulls and filling them with water.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-13, 02:03 PM
but the sails have been historicly proven to be vulnerable to tou flames, if you held a torch to the Sails for 7 or so seconds (not in a storm) they would set alight.
True. One of the most effective ways to disable a ship was to destroy the vulnerable sails and rigging. Still, having to hold a flame to the canvas for seven seconds is rather difficult during a pitched battle. And by that point in historical battles, you've boarded anyway. Incendiary arrows...might work.

With access to magic...most fire spells in D&D are generally agreed to be poor at catching things on fire, with some notable exceptions. Fireball might catch some of the rigging if aimed toward the middle of the sails, and Stormwrack has rules for this. It's just not an instant end to the fight.

Justin_Bacon
2007-08-14, 02:40 AM
Is there any book/homebew that provides rules from ship-to-ship combat.

I'd like to start a pirate campaign pretty soon, and I'd like to incorporate actual ship combat, not just boarding the other ship and firing.

Hmm... I'm tentative to throw this out here, but after thinking about it for awhile, I've decided it probably can't hurt.

Dream Machine Productions currently has Rule Supplement 3: Vehicles in a pre-alpha state. The ruleset is complete and has had (rudimentary) playtesting, but it doesn't have all the bells and whistles (and subsequent tweaking and polishing) by any stretch of the imagination. These rules can be best be thought of as someone looking at the D20 Modern vehicle rules and looking to (a) streamline and simplify them while (b) making them more universally applicable to all vehicle types. (This is not, in fact, a contradiction in terms. It just takes some work.)

If you, or anyone else, is interested in looking at these extremely rough rules, drop me a line. All I ask is that you keep in mind that (a) these are pre-alpha and not truly meant for public release and (b) give me feedback.

Otherwise, wait a few months and the final book will be out. ;)

Justin Alexander
Dream Machine Productions
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Winterking
2007-08-21, 01:16 AM
Historically, alchemist's fire (or, to use the more common name, Greek Fire) was more than just a nuisance...Byzantine warships equipped with spouts to propel Greek Fire were a terror to their foes throughout the eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea. (at least, until the fear that enemies might steal the secret kept the Fire from being used, and the recipe was forgotten...)

Regarding ship battles, in my last campaign, there were several naval engagements, and I discovered, as mentioned above, that players get antsy. Even if you've got some sort of ranged weaponry, so much of naval warfare is about slowly maneuvering to a good spot, that PCs without ranged capabilities (rogues, non-bow-fighters, clerics, etc) end up doing very little, while the wizards and ship's captains are having the time of their life, maneuvering, volleying, and so on. Boarding actions are generally much more enjoyable.

If you want a better model for Age of Sail naval combat, try Pirates of the Spanish Main, the constructible strategy game, from Wizkids.

Damionte
2007-08-21, 01:36 AM
Hmm i thought this thread was dead.

Anyway... MPG also has a line of Pirate based D20 suplpiments if you havn;t seen those yet.

Blood On The High Seas
Ships Of The Elves
Ships Of The Goblinoids

They have rules and weapons in them for ship to ship combat taking into account D&D magic. I didn't bring them up before because I assumed you'd already seen them. These are open source D20 products, you should be able to get them for like a dollar from one of the online sources.

A few stores may have them in the bargain bin as well.