Iron Heart Surge will fix it! Maybe. Possibly. Yes? (Called Creature + Magic Circle)

[Crake]

So I was looking an outsider I'd made with initiator levels, and it occured to me that in the event the creature was ever planar bound, would it be possible to iron heart surge away the effects of the magic circle binding them? With the calling diagram added, the dimensional anchor is targeted on the circle, not the creature summoned, so that wouldn't be a plausible target for the iron heart surge, but the circle itself is most definitely affecting the called creature.

Iron heart surge is a very tricky thing to adjudicate, so what does the playground think in this circumstance?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"You can prevent the creature’s extradimensional escape by casting a dimensional anchor spell on it, but you must cast the spell before the creature acts."

Dimensional Anchor is cast on the creature, but being in the Magic Circle increases the Dimensional Anchor's duration. So you could Iron Heart Surge that, then teleport or plane shift away the following round.


The Magic Circle itself is a circular area of effect acting as a barricade, the trapped creature can attempt to bypass it using SR once per day but it's not something "currently affecting you." You can't Iron Heart Surge a locked door or a Wall of Force that's in your way, so you can't use it to break a Magic Circle spell.

[Crake]

"You can prevent the creature’s extradimensional escape by casting a dimensional anchor spell on it, but you must cast the spell before the creature acts."

Dimensional Anchor is cast on the creature, but being in the Magic Circle increases the Dimensional Anchor's duration. So you could Iron Heart Surge that, then teleport or plane shift away the following round.


The Magic Circle itself is a circular area of effect acting as a barricade, the trapped creature can attempt to bypass it using SR once per day but it's not something "currently affecting you." You can't Iron Heart Surge a locked door or a Wall of Force that's in your way, so you can't use it to break a Magic Circle spell.

Keep reading further in the spell. If you add a calling diagram this option becomes available:


A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell.

It also does state:


When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature

Which seems to imply that it's an effect on the called creature rather than just a barrier, since it only affects the called creature. Any other non-good creature could freely walk in and out of the circle without issue, only that single, called creature is bound, unlike a wall of force which is indiscriminate in it's nature.

[Zanos]

No. Check magic circle.


The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can.

Same reason outsiders don't just cast dispel magic on it.

[Crake]

No. Check magic circle.



Same reason outsiders don't just cast dispel magic on it.

Hmm, I didn't consider that, though at the same time Iron Heart Surge isn't exactly affecting the circle, it's removing the effect of the circle on the creature. The circle is still in place and undisturbed, and would technically be usable to call another creature.

Just doing a logic check here.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would allow it except for the fact that "indirect" is expressly called out. That is pretty tight wording suggesting disallowing just about anything.

[Crake]

I would allow it except for the fact that "indirect" is expressly called out. That is pretty tight wording suggesting disallowing just about anything.

Yeah, but as I mentioned, iron heart surge isn't affecting the circle at all, it's affecting the creature inside the circle. The circle remains intact, and still reusable, just that the creature inside it is no longer being affected by it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, but "Cannot indirectly disturb" is pretty broad language. Excepting yourself from the effect is indirectly disturbing it's function. If it said "directly disturb" I would consider it, but indirect is hard to get around.

[Crake]

Yeah, but "Cannot indirectly disturb" is pretty broad language. Excepting yourself from the effect is indirectly disturbing it's function. If it said "directly disturb" I would consider it, but indirect is hard to get around.

Would it not be on the same level as casting spell immunity on yourself and simply walking out of the circle? Would you allow that? I believe that would be something quite explicitly possible, though if the circle has a calling diagram then it wouldn't work, because you cannot use spell resistance to break out and spell immunity gives you infinite SR vs the selected spells, nothing more. What about an antimagic field? Would that work? It's a pretty powerful and absolute spell.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would not allow the creature to take any action that directly or indirectly breaks the Circle's ability to hold them. One of the ways I WOULD allow them to get out would be a contingent spell. Contingent spell immunity or even Contingent globe of invulnerability would function to stop the effect (or calling a creature with the effect active)

The circle prevents you from taking any action to disturb it. Things that do not take actions can activate. The more powerful thing you call, the less such a thing likes to be called, the more likely it is to have contingent or constant things designed to break through a COP trap.

[Zanos]

Iron Heart Surge ends the entire spell. That's directly disturbing it.

[Hackulator]

Best case scenario, you can end the "effect" that is holding you there without disturbing the spell, but since it ends immediately and you're still inside the circle, you'd just immediately be subject to it again.

Spell immunity does not work against a circle with a diagram, since the diagram prevents the creature from using its spell resistance and Spell Immunity is just SR: Infinity against specific spells.

[Crake]

Best case scenario, you can end the "effect" that is holding you there without disturbing the spell, but since it ends immediately and you're still inside the circle, you'd just immediately be subject to it again.

The circle doesn't affect anyone inside it, it only affects a creature called into it. Once you end the effect on yourself the circle is ready to trap a called creature, but since you aren't being called into it, the trap wouldn't spring on you again. To put it another way, an evil outsider walking into an inward facing magicl circle against evil wouldn't be trapped, only a creature called into the circle is trapped.


Spell immunity does not work against a circle with a diagram, since the diagram prevents the creature from using its spell resistance and Spell Immunity is just SR: Infinity against specific spells.

Yeah, I mentioned that in my post

[Gruftzwerg]

Have a look at the unoffical offical errata for ToB (http://drammelsnotes.wikidot.com/the-unofficial-official-errata)
according to this source, you can even end AoE which affect you (note: no targeting needed).
When you can counter a AMF with it, you should be also able to get rid of Planar Bound & Magic Circle.

Yeah it's really that good/strong. But if you consider the gab between mundane & spellcaster in 3.5, it's fine as it is.

[Fouredged Sword]

It won't work on a CoP binding for the same reason it won't work on paralysis. CoP binding prevents the action itself from taking place.

[Gruftzwerg]

It won't work on a CoP binding for the same reason it won't work on paralysis. CoP binding prevents the action itself from taking place.

Paralysis prevents the target from taking any "actions" at all. That's a huge difference to "may not disturb".
Further I would argue if "ending" an effect (=setting the remaining duration to 0 rounds) really counts as disturbing it. Imho IHS is more like "fast-forward" to the end of duration and thus not "disturbing" it.
But I can see how it could/would end into a DM call/debate at most tables.

edit: Note that "ending" doesn't equal a dispel. It just ends the duration so that the effect vanishes.

[Nifft]

Can Iron Heart Surge remove the alignment traits of an outer plane, if that trait is negatively affecting a PC?

If so, then I think it's fine for a called Outsider to IHS away the Planar Binding effects.

If not, then I think it's not fine.

[Zanos]

If so, then I think it's fine for a called Outsider to IHS away the Planar Binding effects.

Not in a reinforced magic circle.

[Crake]

Paralysis prevents the target from taking any "actions" at all. That's a huge difference to "may not disturb".
Further I would argue if "ending" an effect (=setting the remaining duration to 0 rounds) really counts as disturbing it. Imho IHS is more like "fast-forward" to the end of duration and thus not "disturbing" it.
But I can see how it could/would end into a DM call/debate at most tables.

edit: Note that "ending" doesn't equal a dispel. It just ends the duration so that the effect vanishes.

See, I would argue that it doesn't end the magic circle, but rather ends the effect of the magic circle on the called creature. Consider that the circle is a trap. The trap is sprung when a creature is called into the circle, creating the effect of trapping the creature in the circle. Iron heart surge would end the effect of being trapped within the circle, without actually disturbing or dispelling the circle, thus not incurring any issue with the "cannot disturb the diagram" clause, since the circle itself is not being affected, you're merely ending the circle's effect on you.


Have a look at the unoffical offical errata for ToB (http://drammelsnotes.wikidot.com/the-unofficial-official-errata)
according to this source, you can even end AoE which affect you (note: no targeting needed).
When you can counter a AMF with it, you should be also able to get rid of Planar Bound & Magic Circle.

Yeah it's really that good/strong. But if you consider the gab between mundane & spellcaster in 3.5, it's fine as it is.

In the theoretical world I play in Iron Heart Surge only ends the effect of things on you, and does not thusly remove antimagic fields, or in this case end the magic circle spell. Thus if you were under the effects of say, a chain bestow curse, and you iron heart surged the bestow curse from yourself, you would only remove it from yourself, not all other targets, and likewise if you iron heart surged an antimagic field, it would end the effect on yourself, only to be immediately re-applied, since you're still standing in the AMF. In the case of the magic circle though, it would end the effect, but it wouldn't be re-applied, since the effect is only applied to a creature being called into the circle. That's my logic anyway.

[lord_khaine]

Iron heart surge is a very tricky thing to adjudicate, so what does the playground think in this circumstance?

From what i can read it seems reasonable for IHS to remove the effect of the circle. Its an effect with a duration thats impeding your movement.

More importantly, it also seems like intended use for IHS to break free of magical enchantments like this. Unlike when its used to get rid of things like gravity ect.

[Deophaun]

So, IHS prevents the creature from doing anything that directly or indirectly disturbs the circle.

10: Get trapped in circle.
20: Use IHS, removing the circle's effect on the creature.
30: Sweep the circle into a dust pan.
40: IHS indirectly disturbs the circle. Go to 10.

Which puts the creature in a state of quantum uncertainty where it never disturbed the circle so it's free, or it did disturb the circle so it isn't.

But yeah, more straightforward is that IHS would just flat out remove the spell, which is directly disturbing the circle. It doesn't matter that the circle could be reused; it matters that it was prevented from doing the job it was doing.

[Snowbluff]

I agree with Deophaun. For the record, a spell is an effect. When you end the effect, you are ending the spell.

[Nifft]

Not in a reinforced magic circle.

If the DM would allow IHS to remove an alignment trait from a whole plane, then IHS can alter some environmental factors by altering the environment.

In this case, it would be able to affect the much smaller environment created by magic circle + planar binding.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho the wording of IHS is important.

It doesn't remove any effects, it doesn't dispel anything, it just "ends the spell/effect duration" (= sets remaining duration from whatever it was to 0 rounds remaining).

It just ends here. The only point to debate is, does the DM count ending the duration as disturbing it. Cause imho the effect itself isn't harmed by IHS. Change in duration does not disturb the effect.

[Nifft]

Imho the wording of IHS is important.

It doesn't remove any effects, it doesn't dispel anything, it just "ends the spell/effect duration" (= sets remaining duration from whatever it was to 0 rounds remaining).

It just ends here. The only point to debate is, does the DM count ending the duration as disturbing it. Cause imho the effect itself isn't harmed by IHS. Change in duration does not disturb the effect.

To me that would imply that IHS cannot affect environmental effects, only effects that are tied to the individual.

With that perspective, the Planar Binding spell and related effects would not be vulnerable to IHS.

[Gruftzwerg]

To me that would imply that IHS cannot affect environmental effects, only effects that are tied to the individual.

With that perspective, the Planar Binding spell and related effects would not be vulnerable to IHS.

Why not? If you exchange whatever duration it had before (even permanent) with 0 remaining rounds, the effects just ends. And if the spell did affect other targets too, the effect ends for them too.

___

It's like:

IHS: "Hey you nasty effect, I don't have the time to bother with you, so hurry.. fast-forward GO GO!! Aren't you done yet??"
Nasty Effect gets scared by IHS: "kkthxbye, sry I had to bother you" and runs off.

[Crake]

So, IHS prevents the creature from doing anything that directly or indirectly disturbs the circle.

10: Get trapped in circle.
20: Use IHS, removing the circle's effect on the creature.
30: Sweep the circle into a dust pan.
40: IHS indirectly disturbs the circle. Go to 10.

Which puts the creature in a state of quantum uncertainty where it never disturbed the circle so it's free, or it did disturb the circle so it isn't.

But yeah, more straightforward is that IHS would just flat out remove the spell, which is directly disturbing the circle. It doesn't matter that the circle could be reused; it matters that it was prevented from doing the job it was doing.

The problem with this logic is that you can use it for practically ANYTHING that the creature could do. Replace 20 with "Accepts the deal for planar binding" and then replace 30 with "Creature is now free to perform services for the binder". Accepting the deal has now indirectly disturbed the circle, thus the creature can never accept the deal. The logical step you're missing is that 20 removes the creature from the limitations of the spell. Iron heart surge isn't indirectly disturbing the circle, it's ending the effect, which incidentally allows the creature to disturb the circle, which is now two steps removed. You gotta have a line somewhere, otherwise the creature literally loses all agency and cannot act at all, because any action could cause a butterfly effect which may, however indirectly, result in the disturbing of the circle.

Basically what I'm saying is that the inability to disturb the circle only applies as long as the creature is trapped. Consider this: Imagine for a moment, that the caster summoned a creature that could teleport, and by some happenstance forgot to cast dimensional anchor. The creature is thusly free to teleport out of the trap. It is no longer trapped, and thus can disturb the circle.

Following your logic though, teleporting outside of the circle indirectly allows the bound creature to disturb the circle, thus it cannot teleport outside of the trap.

Now replace "teleported out of the trap" with "iron heart surged away the effect of the magic circle's trap". They have the same basic logic, thus they cannot result in different answers.

[Nifft]

Why not? If you exchange whatever duration it had before (even permanent) with 0 remaining rounds, the effects just ends. And if the spell did affect other targets too, the effect ends for them too.

___

It's like:

IHS: "Hey you nasty effect, I don't have the time to bother with you, so hurry.. fast-forward GO GO!! Aren't you done yet??"
Nasty Effect gets scared by IHS: "kkthxbye, sry I had to bother you" and runs off.

So, going back to my previous post, how would you handle this situation?

1 - Warblade is present on a plane with a strong Alignment trait, which conflicts with the Warblade's own alignment.
2 - Warblade uses IHS to remove the plane's strong Alignment trait.

Would you allow that to work?

[Deophaun]

The problem with this logic is that you can use it for practically ANYTHING that the creature could do. Replace 20 with "Accepts the deal for planar binding" and then replace 30 with "Creature is now free to perform services for the binder". Accepting the deal has now indirectly disturbed the circle, thus the creature can never accept the deal.
Except that is the point of the circle. You aren't disturbing it by allowing it to do its job.

The logical step you're missing is that 20 removes the creature from the limitations of the spell.
Which would allow disturbing the circle. Cannot do it.

You gotta have a line somewhere, otherwise the creature literally loses all agency and cannot act at all, because any action could cause a butterfly effect which may, however indirectly, result in the disturbing of the circle.
The point of planar binding is to remove agency.

Consider this: Imagine for a moment, that the caster summoned a creature that could teleport, and by some happenstance forgot to cast dimensional anchor. The creature is thusly free to teleport out of the trap. It is no longer trapped, and thus can disturb the circle.
Except:
The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier).
Specific trumps general.

Now replace "teleported out of the trap" with "iron heart surged away the effect of the magic circle's trap". They have the same basic logic, thus they cannot result in different answers.
Iron Heart Surge is not called out as an exception, so no, not the same basic logic at all.

[Crake]

So, going back to my previous post, how would you handle this situation?

1 - Warblade is present on a plane with a strong Alignment trait, which conflicts with the Warblade's own alignment.
2 - Warblade uses IHS to remove the plane's strong Alignment trait.

Would you allow that to work?

In the context of this thread and how it would function in the world I'm running, if you were on a plane plane with a strong alignment opposite your own, iron heart surge would do nothing. You would remove the effect, but then it would be immediate re-applied by the plane. If it were a plane with some kind of stacking penalty, or for example, a plane with the timeless trait, where removing the trait for even an instant can have disatrous effects, then IHS would have a tangible effect, but on a plane with a static penalty for simply being on the plane, iron heart surge would do nothing. The same goes for area of effect spells, for example, being inside an antimagic field, you could IHS the effects of the antimagic field, but they would immediately re-apply because you're still inside the antimagic field.

I know the whole unofficial errata thing and the "sage" says that IHS ends the effect in it's entirety, but at my table we rule that it "ends the effect on you" and nothing more. The reason why I believe it should work with the magic circle trap is because the trap is only sprung when a creature is called into the circle. If it merely walks into the circle, or even teleports into the circle, the trap does not set off, so ending the circle's effect with IHS simply removes yourself from the effects of being trapped, but the circle and all it's magic remains, and could be re-used to call another creature.

[Fouredged Sword]

So, going back to my previous post, how would you handle this situation?

1 - Warblade is present on a plane with a strong Alignment trait, which conflicts with the Warblade's own alignment.
2 - Warblade uses IHS to remove the plane's strong Alignment trait.

Would you allow that to work?

No, a planer trait does not have a duration measured in rounds. Only effects that have durations expressly measured in rounds can be IHSed away.

[Crake]

No, a planer trait does not have a duration measured in rounds. Only effects that have durations expressly measured in rounds can be IHSed away.

Also that :smalltongue:


Except that is the point of the circle. You aren't disturbing it by allowing it to do its job.

Which would allow disturbing the circle. Cannot do it.

No, the circle's job is to trap the creature, it's the planar binding spell who's purpose is to bind you to an agreement.


The point of planar binding is to remove agency.

My point here is that the creature would enter some kind of stasis where no actions could ever be permitted, and it would cease to exist, because even it's mere existence will inevitably indirectly lead it it being freed. There has to be a point where an indirect action becomes too far removed for it to count for the purpose of "indirectly disturbing the circle".


Except:
Specific trumps general.

Iron Heart Surge is not called out as an exception, so no, not the same basic logic at all.

That is also a non-exhaustive list, it says that it can free itself by those means, but doesn't limit those means as the only possible methods of escape. Not to mention of course that iron heart surge was written years later and could not have possibly been forseen by the developers, so of course it's not explicitly called out as it's own exception.

I suppose you also believe that a creature with a wish SLA could not escape from the trap by wishing itself out? Wish's option to move creatures isn't a teleportation effect, so it must not be an option? What about shadow walk? I know it's blocked by dimensional anchor, but again, assume that the caster forgot to cast dimensional anchor. Shadow walk isn't a teleportation effect, so does that mean that the trapped creature couldn't possibly use that to escape?

My point is that there are other ways to escape the trap beyond the ones mentioned, because it's not an exhaustive list. Even if you wholeheartedly believe that the above effects would not allow a creature to escape, that doesn't matter, because for the purposes of this thread they can be.

[Andezzar]

No, a planer trait does not have a duration measured in rounds. Only effects that have durations expressly measured in rounds can be IHSed away.That is not what IHS says. It removes effects "with a duration of 1 or more rounds". There is no requirement that the duration is measured in rounds. As long as the duration can be compared to a duration of 1 round and is considered longer it can be IHSed away. Example: 1 h = 60 min = 600 rounds > 1 round

[Gruftzwerg]

So, going back to my previous post, how would you handle this situation?

1 - Warblade is present on a plane with a strong Alignment trait, which conflicts with the Warblade's own alignment.
2 - Warblade uses IHS to remove the plane's strong Alignment trait.

Would you allow that to work?

I would go a similar approach as with all permanent effects.
When you use IHS the effect ends for everybody. But compared to a permanent Magic Circle where you can easily walk out of it in your remaining turn to prevent it from reapplying its effect (on its initiative!), against a planar trait it won't be much of a help.
Everybody on the plane will "feel a disturbance in the force"^^, but once the plane is on initiative, everything goes back to normal.

Mechanically it works like suppressing, but it doesn't really "suppress" in terms of rule wording (just altering the effect duration).

[Deophaun]

I suppose you also believe that a creature with a wish SLA could not escape from the trap by wishing itself out? Wish's option to move creatures isn't a teleportation effect, so it must not be an option?
It doesn't say "teleportation effect." It says "dimensional travel."

Do you have any arguments not based on wishing the text said something it does not?

My point is that there are other ways to escape the trap beyond the ones mentioned, because it's not an exhaustive list.
It is an exhaustive list, because it is forbidden from doing anything that can directly or indirectly disturb the circle. All means of escape can indirectly disturb the circle. Therefore, only those means of escape expressly permitted are allowed. Everything else is forbidden.

[Nifft]

Planar Binding spells have a duration: instantaneous. They do not have a duration measured in rounds. If that's your criteria, IHS can't affect anything about planar binding.

If you're considering the dimensional anchor and magic circle as separate effects, which I wouldn't, but if you are -- they have durations measured in days, not rounds. A strict RAW reading would not allow IHS to affect days/level effects (but I don't personally subscribe to that).

== == ==

To make a Martial Initiator into a more dangerous target, here's what I'd do instead of just throwing a "gotcha!" at the player:

- Players often use conditions to reduce the target's Charisma check, to get the Binding to work. Stuff like geas and enervation. Use IHS on those, so the target's Cha check is not reduced. That's well within the rules, yet probably outside expectation.

- Use the Duel of Wills mechanic to (potentially) reduce the PC's Charisma check.

== == ==

What I generally rule is:

- IHS can't remove environmental / circumstance penalties. They are extrinsic to you. They're not an effect on you, they're an effect that represents the additional difficulty of trying to act against the environment. You can't IHS to remove the rainy typhoon that's impeding your ranged attacks, for example, nor can you IHS away a penalty to lip-reading caused by dim lighting.

- This also means there's a distinction between a targeted dimensional anchor vs. an environmental spell like dimensional lock, or like the alternate use of dimensional anchor when applied to a magic circle. You can IHS away a targeted dimensional anchor, since it's an effect on you, but not a dimensional anchor used on a magic circle diagram since it's not affecting you directly -- it's creating a hostile environment.

- I do allow IHS to affect most spells & effects which directly target the initiator, even some with durations not measured in rounds, like geas or bestow curse.


These rulings remove a lot of IHS nonsense (like "I'm sunburned! I use IHS to remove the sun!").

[Crake]

I think this thread has given me enough sides of the discussion to decide on a ruling based on the way my table runs IHS, thanks guys.