Ridiculous Traps

[XBobbis]

Are they appropriate?

I used the following:

Prismatic Spray Trap
CR 8; magic device; proximity trigger (alarm); automatic reset; spell effect (prismatic spray, 13th-level wizard, DC 20 Reflex, Fortitude, or Will save, depending on effect); Search DC 32; Disable Device DC 32. Cost: 45,500 gp, 3,640 XP.

The rogue rolled low enough to set the trap off with his disable device, and the dice rolls resulted in a TPK. I watched in shock as the rays rolled up and the saves came, the wizard failed his DC 20 poison fort save or die, the sorcerer failed his reflex save and took 80 points of damage and died, the cleric failed his fort save and got turned to stone, and the rogue rolled a one on his reflex save and also took 80 points of damage and died.

It seems to me a lot of traps are much more deadly then their CR, a CR 8 trap TPKed a party of level 7 adventurerers.

I was just wondering if anyone else thinks that trap CRs are inappropriate, and if so, what did you do?

[Jack Mann]

Hmm. This is a bit tricky, since it has multiple effects. However, let's just look at the hit point damage. That's 140 points of damage done by the spell. A spell trap has a DC of 1+spell level (how you arrived at 8) or 1+[1/7 points of damage]. That will yield a CR of 21.

[XBobbis]

Another example: Spell Turret Traps in the DMGII

CR 10 trap, dimuntive construct, all spells that have a save are DC 23:

200 HP, hardness of whatever it's made of minimum 5, AC 7; activates from 120 feet away via a true-seeing spell. Search DC and Disable Device DC 34

Round 1: Energy Drain
Round 2: Meteor Swarm
Round 3: Power Word: Kill
Round 4: Imprisonment
Round 5: Repair Self for 4d8+20 HP
Repeat from round 1.

A CR 10 trap, ment to take 1/4 of the resources from a party of 4 level 10 adventurers, this doesn't exactly seem balanced, does it? I mean, 100 hp at level 10 (assuming average HP) is possible for a barbarian with 16 con otherwise you die the third round, no save.

[XBobbis]

Does anyone have any house rules about trap CRs or can explain why these traps are CR appropriate?

[Psionic Dog]

In terms of XP earned for overcoming the trap, it is appropriate. You get XP for dissabling, creativly bypassing, or flat out surviving the trap.

I suspect the idea is for traps of your CR to drain you of 1/3 to 1/2 your resources with a 50% chance of noticing and disabling the trap. (average 1/5 resources lost in single round) The traps probably also count raise deads and the needed gems as valid resorces to wast.

With the Prismatic spray, the group got unlucky with a nasty min-maxed trap more appropriate for a group of hard core powergamers.

With the turret trap... DM Veto. I'd treat it as a set of traps that trigger each other. (4 CR 10 traps for an encounter CR of 14) Better yet, call it a creature instead of a trap, say a CR 15 golum (How could you advance 120ft through a true seeing to get close enough to disable, much less search and find it?)


That said, the little detail about the traps mysteriously ending at CR10 makes me think I'm wrong...

[Curmudgeon]

Prismatic Spray Trap
Cost: 45,500 gp, 3,640 XP.

a CR 8 trap TPKed a party of level 7 adventurerers. Some bad guy shelled out 45,500 gp for a home defense system? This had better be effective!

Why was the whole level 7 party standing around within line of effect of a trap while the Rogue worked on it? That's just stupid. They deserved to die.

[Belteshazzar]

That trap was worth more than some dungeons. If I paid that much for a trap it had better do the laundry and make toast.

In fact for that price I could afford to carry most of my house around with me in a magical bag or something.

[XBobbis]

I'm not particularly concerned with the cost right now.

And for reasons that are unimportant right now, they couldn't get out of it's line of effect without significant risk; the rogue rolled a 4 on disable device (he needed two more to disable the trap). The fact that this resulted in a TPK seems inappropriate for a CR 8.

[Belteshazzar]

Save or ___ spells have a tendency to do that. I remember once seeing a complete power gamer who was used to taking on minor gods and winning die in one round to some Devil Lord who ended up Slaying, Blinding, Deafening, and Planeshifting the poor guy with a single spell. Now I love throwing those spells around as much as the next batman caster but when it comes back to the players it comes back hard.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm not particularly concerned with the cost right now.

And for reasons that are unimportant right now, they couldn't get out of it's line of effect without significant risk; the rogue rolled a 4 on disable device (he needed two more to disable the trap). The fact that this resulted in a TPK seems inappropriate for a CR 8.
If he needed to only roll two higher to disable the trap, then why did it go off? Doesn't he have to fail by five or more?

Also, this is what happens when you cast save-or-die spells at the party. If they don't save, they die. That's the whole concept in a nutshell. Hence, you're always going to have a chance for a TPK when you cast an area-of-effect save-or-die at the party. Seems fairly sensible. If you didn't want to risk a TPK, you should have used a different trap.

[Jack_Simth]

With the turret trap... DM Veto. I'd treat it as a set of traps that trigger each other. (4 CR 10 traps for an encounter CR of 14) Better yet, call it a creature instead of a trap, say a CR 15 golum (How could you advance 120ft through a true seeing to get close enough to disable, much less search and find it?)

Mad Rogue skills.

A successful Search check (DC 25 + spell level) made by a rogue (and only a rogue) detects a magic trap before it goes off. Other characters have no chance to find a magic trap with a Search check.(emphasis added)

The simple method is to treat the entire trigger zone as part of the trap - which has RAW support:


All traps—mechanical or magic—have the following elements: trigger, reset, Search DC, Disable Device DC, attack bonus (or saving throw or onset delay), damage/effect, and Challenge Rating. Some traps may also include optional elements, such as poison or a bypass. These characteristics are described below.
The trigger is part of the trap (an element of the trap) so while actively searching and disabling, the Rogue can treat the trap as being in the trigger zone.

No, it doesn't make sense.

But then, if there were a rogue-proof trap, neither would rogues.


That said, the little detail about the traps mysteriously ending at CR10 makes me think I'm wrong...
Eh, traps get dull in isolation.

You want interesting traps?

Put a series of 10 foot camouflaged pit traps in the BBEG's throne room, where the BBEG waits. BBEG (and important minions) know where they are located, and walk around. They do, however, act as a hazard - the Charging Fighter finds himself in a pit for 1d6 damage (reflex save DC 20). Gives anyone attempting to close (Fighter, Rogue, some Clerics) a surpise. This simple trap, repeated a dozen times, adds spice to the encounter - the 1d6 damage is negligible. The purpose of the traps is to hamper the party, nothing more. Also works well with an officially CR 6 Wall of Force trap - exists for no other reason than to give the BBEG warning and time to buff up.
Doesn't overly matter much what level you encounter these traps at, it's how they're used.

[stupidmonkey]

You want interesting traps?

Put a series of 10 foot camouflaged pit traps in the BBEG's throne room, where the BBEG waits. BBEG (and important minions) know where they are located, and walk around. They do, however, act as a hazard - the Charging Fighter finds himself in a pit for 1d6 damage (reflex save DC 20). Gives anyone attempting to close (Fighter, Rogue, some Clerics) a surpise. This simple trap, repeated a dozen times, adds spice to the encounter - the 1d6 damage is negligible. The purpose of the traps is to hamper the party, nothing more. Also works well with an officially CR 6 Wall of Force trap - exists for no other reason than to give the BBEG warning and time to buff up.
Doesn't overly matter much what level you encounter these traps at, it's how they're used.

OR Just have invisible walls blocking a hall with a bunch of low level minions dumping hot oil and arrows... or pitch and fire. great for that last hall leading the BBEG

[Thanatos 51-50]

How could you advance 120ft through a true seeing to get close enough to disable, much less search and find it?

Anti-magic field on the Rogue's belt buckle?
Finding the trap is as easy as finding its trigger zone, though.

<Edited to cut it down in size>

[XBobbis]

That was a typo, he needed to up it by two to hit the "five less" safety mark.

[Amphimir Míriel]

OR Just have invisible walls blocking a hall with a bunch of low level minions dumping hot oil and arrows... or pitch and fire. great for that last hall leading the BBEG

That's a variation of the classic "Tucker's Kobolds" (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) type of dungeon.

Nice, simple and eeeeevil... however its a real bitch to assign CR to an encounter of this type :smallconfused:

[Aquillion]

This sounds like just bad luck to me.

But you have to remember, too... traps have to be balanced differently than encounters. If the players could just walk up and soak the effect of every single trap they encounter and be no worse off than if they'd faced an encounter of the same CR, rogues would be pretty pointless, wouldn't they?