[3.5] Things to do with attack bonus other than Power Attack

[Mr Adventurer]

So it looks like I'll be playing a Barbarian without the Power Attack feat. What else could I do with my high BAB? I suppose I could just rely on making all my iteratives connect. Perhaps Two-weapon fighting?

[Fouredged Sword]

Take a look at the stone power feat. You can trade attack bonus for temp HP on a 1-2 basis. They only last one round, but it can be very handy for surviving. Defensive fighting is also a thing, if less used than power attack. Combat expertise allows you to trade attack bonus for AC. Not all together the most powerful thing, but you pick it up on your way to a tripping build anyway.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you take two levels in Kensai fighter (Dragon #310 variant), you can unlock Storm of Blows, which is basically Flurry of Blows (but slightly worse): two bonus attacks for a -6 penalty to hit.

[Mr Adventurer]

Interesting. Does the wording of Stone Power's ability to qualify you for a 'special ability' mean you could use it with stuff that normally triggers off Power Attacking, e.g. Armbands of Might, or the tactical manoeuvres from Combat Brute?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Interesting. Does the wording of Stone Power's ability to qualify you for a 'special ability' mean you could use it with stuff that normally triggers off Power Attacking, e.g. Armbands of Might, or the tactical manoeuvres from Combat Brute?
Stone Power qualifies for other abilities as if it is Power Attack. It seems reasonable to allow abilities like Shock Trooper to work (assign penalty to AC), but I'm not sure about anything that depends on damage (e.g. Leap Attack).

[DrKerosene]

I am fairly sure there is a Companion Spirit (like a teamwork benefit thing) option that lets you dump BAB into it, and you allies can add it as bonus to AC. i think it's one of the few options that can be used all day long instead of a limited amount.

[CharonsHelper]

Hit with iterative attacks?

Really - in 3.5 Power Attack is only sporadically useful when full-attacking. Unless you have some special ability it's only worth using against things like oozes & some constructs with terrible AC.

(This is in comparison to Pathfinder where it's useful the bulk of the time from levels 4-10ish, dropping off in value after gaining your second iterative, as the penalties increase, and as your static damage rises.)

[Mr Adventurer]

Stone Power qualifies for other abilities as if it is Power Attack. It seems reasonable to allow abilities like Shock Trooper to work (assign penalty to AC), but I'm not sure about anything that depends on damage (e.g. Leap Attack).
I suppose a liberal reading would be that you could take -5 to hit, gain +10 temporary hit points from Stone Power and +5 damage on your leaping charge from Leap Attack...

Unlikely to go that way though!

[Psyren]

Your first iterative is supposed to be practically automatic. We optimize to-hit because of the remaining attacks.

[Mr Adventurer]

After some discussion with the DM, I've gone Bear Warrior so have to have Power Attack after all. He's open to minor houserules though so if there's an alternative feat that makes sense, I can pitch that to him.

As an example, he's willing to waive the type requirement for the Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike feats so long as they only apply in bear form :smallbiggrin:. This means I'll still have attacks at penalties (well, I will by level 12 and 15) for attack bonus to be useful for.

By the way, so far as I can tell, Improved Rapidstrike on a 2 claws attack routine looks like: Claw +0, Claw +0, Claw -5, Claw -10, Claw -10, Claw -10. Is that right?

[ExLibrisMortis]

By the way, so far as I can tell, Improved Rapidstrike on a 2 claws attack routine looks like: Claw +0, Claw +0, Claw -5, Claw -10, Claw -10, Claw -10. Is that right?
No. The feat says: "If you have a pair of natural weapons, [...] you can make two or more extra attacks with one of those weapons". So you can attack three or four times with one claw ((+20/)+15/+10/+5) and your other claw is a regular natural attack.

See below for correct explanation.

[Mr Adventurer]

The feat says "the first at a —5 penalty and the second and subsequent attacks at an additional —5, but never more than four extra attacks. "

So, one normal claw at full AB. The other claw at full AB, then four extra attacks. The first extra attack is at -5. The second, third, and fourth extra attacks are at -10.

That's what my post shows.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The feat says "the first at a —5 penalty and the second and subsequent attacks at an additional —5, but never more than four extra attacks. "

So, one normal claw at full AB. The other claw at full AB, then four extra attacks. The first extra attack is at -5. The second, third, and fourth extra attacks are at -10.

That's what my post shows.
Ah, I was thinking you meant to attack with your second claw at -10, hence the number of attacks at -10. My bad. You're quite right. I'm not certain it's RAI that the third extra attack is also at -10, but looking at it more carefully, it's the more natural RAW reading of the text. You would attack at +0/-5/-10/-10/-10 and +0 (or -5, if used as secondary natural attack) for the second claw, as you say.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yeah, it is odd - so I made extra effort to work it out, and that's why I came here to check. :)

I might have thought it was supposed to be iterative attacks like for weapons based on BAB, except the feat never makes that comparison itself, which seems like the obvious thing for it to do of that's what was meant.

[Eldariel]

Hit with iterative attacks?

Really - in 3.5 Power Attack is only sporadically useful when full-attacking. Unless you have some special ability it's only worth using against things like oozes & some constructs with terrible AC.

(This is in comparison to Pathfinder where it's useful the bulk of the time from levels 4-10ish, dropping off in value after gaining your second iterative, as the penalties increase, and as your static damage rises.)

This really depends. One of those things people keep repeating that's not really grounded in reality. A level 20 Core Barbarian can get a lot of mileage out of PA vs. a Balor or a Pit Fiend or in general, AC 40+ enemies simply due to his attack bonus being that high. Same at level 10 and even level 5. If he can't overcome the DR, that makes it even more important. And that's without accounting for AC penalties (prone, flat-footed, blind, etc.) and circumstance bonuses (higher ground, flanking, charging, etc.) and spells. Cast Quickened True Strike and Power Attack for 16 as a core Gish; great with Spirited Charge and nigh' guaranteed hit. Cleric can convert all those buff spells to hitting bonuses too. And any team buffs, tripping, etc. enhance it further.

Say a Human Barbarian 10 with +2 weapon (Greater Magic Weapon), raging, enlarge personed (permanencied), +2 Str item is running at (18 + 2 levels + 2 size + 2 item + 6 Rage) 30 Strength, +10 BAB, +2 Weapon. He's also Large and has Improved Trip so his tripping is pretty good and he might as well have Weapon Focus because this is core and you don't have that many feats you want. His to hit is +21. He attacks...say Noble Salamander (AC 18) or Gray Slaad (AC 24). He can't overcome the DR/Lawful (seriously, who can?) of Gray Slaad so he's doing 2d6+7 to it and 2d6+17 to Noble Salamander. He effortlessly trips either so we're dealing with ACs 14 and 20. The party Wizard casts Haste because that's what Wizards do in fights. +22/+22/+17. PA -7 puts you from 43.12 to 66.22 vs. Grey Slaad and from -10 from 75.24 to 125.8 vs. Noble Salamander.

[CharonsHelper]

[Disagreement and example to prove point]

I did specifically state that it was still sporadically useful. That's exactly the sort of situation where that it is.


Really - in 3.5 Power Attack is only sporadically useful when full-attacking. Unless you have some special ability it's only worth using against things like oozes & some constructs with terrible AC.

Worth having - but not something which you should use by default.

[Eldariel]

I did specifically state that it was still sporadically useful. That's exactly the sort of situation where that it is.

Worth having - but not something which you should use by default.

Fair, but I'd say on full BAB types it's almost always worth using if you're investing in your hit score.

Even just baseline BAB + Str + Weapon often suffices for PA to be profitable vs. most level appropriate encounters. And then many things give you further bonuses you can sink into PA - buffs, circumstances, feats, etc. I'd say it's a superb feat for every two-hander that significantly improves many other options and tends to improve your expected damage in nearly every encounter, while also giving you versatility.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Worth having - but not something which you should use by default.
Well, with a two-hander PA build, you should always PA for several points, whether it's 2 or 5 or 10. Either you have the to-hit to make it work (as on a full-bab high-strength build or Shock Trooper build), the special abilities to make do with lower to-hit (as on a gish or initiator), or the Power Attack enhancements to improve the returns (as for Cobalt Power or Favoured Power Attack).

What I mean is: Amongst optimized builds, you either have PA and have mitigated its drawback, or you don't have PA at all, and use some other source of extra damage. You wouldn't get PA 'on the off-chance it comes in handy', because it's such a powerful and defining feat, and feats aren't so common that you can afford to waste one.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yeah. The thing is - on the assumption that "high Strength" is a legitimate source of extra damage - I would ideally like to avoid taking Power Attack - simply because it would make a change from having to constantly specify how much of it I'm using. Hence this thread, really. I've played plenty of warrior characters using the feat...