I Think I'm a Blasphemer.

[Dragor]

Ok, get out your pitchforks.

Actually, I'd better spoiler this, cover your eyes.

Not only have I only just got Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, I don't like them.

I don't know why this is. I like D&D. I like retro games. One thing I don't like is the pretty cumbersome interface. I always get the feeling that I'm trudging through some sort of thick slime to actually move anywhere.

The characters I love, it's impossible not to like Jaheira, Imoen, Minsc and et al.

It's also too hard for me. Even on easy, I get slaughtered by kobolds. I'm not much of a spellcaster at heart- so it's always something like a Paladin or Fighter for me. It seems to be centred less on fun and more on build optimization. I'm no puzzle solver either (and puzzles have a habit of appearing).

I know the story must be rich with lovely, lovely role playing goodness. But how can I savour that if some of the game seems to just go "Nyer nyer nyer!" everytime I want to do something?

Tell me I'm wrong, I'm a fool, and say it gets better (I'm not that far into both games, but they're giving me a real hard time.) Say I'm a newbie, should get more practice and read old Ed rules FFS. Or something. (But this is GitP, where people actually have IQ's, so I should be fine :smalltongue: )

Rant over.

[Morrandir]

Eh, some people just don't like them. Might be that. Let's see if we can fix the problem, though, aye?

Yeah, the interface is pretty cumbersome, I don't think anyone's going to argue that. Just takes some getting used to. Thankfully, as you're the brawler type, you don't need to worry about flipping through 3 or 4 tabs of spells to find the right one (which, by the way, you have to remember the symbols for. Gets fun at high levels.) Pretty much, just get some healing potions on your belt, your favorite weapons on the bar, and start crackin' heads.

Also, it does use 2nd ed rules, so it's a *tad* different. Lower AC = better. Strength is figured weird if you have 18 in it. A greatsword is slower than a dagger. THAC0 is confusing. Thankfully, you can just remember the almighty "the more pluses, the better" rule 3rd ed. and 3.5 employ, and be pretty well off. Just remember to identify the magic equipment you find, and READ THE DESCRIPTIONS. That's important. More than one person has fallen for the Vampiric Sword's shinyness.

If you have Tales of the Sword Coast, I'd suggest finishing that up before even starting a serious BG2 game. That'll allow you to get a good head start with levels (and bring in some of your spiffy items. Like the golden pantaloons. Which do have a point, but I'm not saying more).

Puzzles have multiple methods of solving, thankfully. You can think it through, performing it in the least painful way possible, you could beat it with something large and heavy until it lets you go, you can tank the traps and just walk through, leave and ask for clues from nearby townspeople, etc. If all else fails, send the rogue in, or save and try something. If you die, load and do something else.

It also has multiplayer support, so if you just can't handle running 6 characters at the same time, especially where your main is not the healer or arcane artillery, you can snag a couple pals and run through with them (which is a blast in and of itself. Getting every faction mad at you for slaughtering 3 towns at level 2 is pretty dang awesome. Until they catch you.) If you can get someone SERIOUS about the game, it's pretty cool. Getting a synchronized 6-way fireball on a nasty monster is a beautiful thing.

Thinking on it, if I can find my CDs, I wouldn't mind helping, should you want to.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I like helping :smallredface:

Oh, also, make sure you keep a couple spare weapons on hand, and if you can afford it, a spare armor set. Nasty little plot hook at the beginning of BG I...

[Jerthanis]

Uh... yeah, those games are really freakin' hard. Took me FOR-FREAKING-EVER to finally beat all of Baldur's gate 2, and I NEVER beat BG1 without cheating obscenely.

All I can say is that you need to save often and exploit AI and utilize stupid spell things, like repeatedly casting fireball at a range where you can't actually see the NPC to trigger the battle script, but where the fireball radius hits them from offscreen. When you finally trigger the battle they'll be near-dead already.

Also, reroll over and over until you get 18/91+ or 18/00 strength as a fighter type. Once I got 18/96 strength, 18 Con, 18 Dex, that fighter rocked for all time, as he hit like he had a +5 sword compared to a 17 strength fighter, and had a million HPs and -2 or -3 AC when in Ankeg fullplate. (By the way, Ankeg is like, the second best armor in the whole first game, get some as soon as you can, it gets outclassed in the second though)

Try and complete EVERY SINGLE sidequest before progressing, in the first it sometimes means an extra level, which will be absolutely critical in getting your next levels of spells, some crucial HPs and some extra THAC0. In the second, this becomes more about getting the best magic junk. I hate to say it, but refer to a walkthrough just to check you aren't missing something good.

Other than that... just have patience, there's good writing hiding in that obscurity of poor UI, meandering, hard to see dungeons, behind endless areas, and after battles which seem like insta-death traps. (that first assassin at the inn... 5 magic missiles hitting you as a level 1 character... you've got like, 12 HPs at best at that point)

From experience, it gets better, but it takes a head like rock to bash your way through it. Took me like, five years to finally beat either one though.

[Castaras]

I have four Baldurs Gates games.

Tried playing the first, and gave up in the first area. I just couldn't get the damned interface to work for me, and while the graphics are pretty cute, it all confused me so much.

I might go have a look at the others, sometime.

[Morty]

If game is too hard, just lower the difficulty rating. But I'd rather try to endure that, you'll learn with time. When I played both BGs for the first time, some fights were preety hard, but nothing I couldn't beat after a while.


Yeah, the interface is pretty cumbersome, I don't think anyone's going to argue that.

I am. The interface takes two minutes at worst to get used into, and I can't really see how can anyone have any problems with that. Getting anywhere is just one mouse click, not to mention there are hotkeys.
BG2 graphics is one of the best I've seen. It's 5 or more years since it got released, and it still looks fine. Yay for 2D graphic with hand-drawn background.

[trollhammeren]

This site has all the tips and what not youll need to help you. Its not a walkthrough, its a guide to all the small things like the romances and where to find items and stuff.

http://www.geocities.com/bigorrin/amnreview.htm

[Tengu]

The characters I love, it's impossible not to like Jaheira, Imoen, Minsc and et al.


Don't worry, Jaheira turns into a self-righteous bit... witch in BG2. At least she gets annoyed by Aerie's "I'm the (probable) generic love interest, weak and helpless, ooooh" behaviour.


An annoying thing in BG2 is that it's best to remain single, since all the love interests are horrible! Jaheira, as I said, is a biatch, plus it's kind of immoral for me to try to hit on a fresh widow. Viconia is even more of a biatch - I don't have BDSM tendencies and evil female drow priestesses are not my style completely (yes, I know you can make her good, or at least less evil, but to do this you have to start with her in the first place). Aerie, as already mentioned, is so annoyingly weak and helpless that sometimes you wish to engage in some pvp - feminine is feminine, but she does not have even an inch of mental strength and initiative! Could you actually date Nalia? She's so generic and personality-less it's hard to say anything about her.
Why Mazzy was out of question? She's the coolest female character in BG2.

Well, if you had a female character, the only option was Anomen, who kills enemies by sheer arrogance. Why the obvious choice, Haer-Dalis, is not an option, is beyond me.

There, rant over. BG are decent games, but I prefer jRPGs and Planescape: Torment.

[Morty]

Why Mazzy was out of question? She's the coolest female character in BG2.



Well, when I had Valygar and Mazzy both in team, it looked like they were going to have a rommance. But since I was forced to start the game again soon, I never found out. But if it's true, I guess authors may have decided that one fight over a woman is enough.

[Tengu]

Well, when I had Valygar and Mazzy both in team, it looked like they were going to have a rommance. But since I was forced to start the game again soon, I never found out. But if it's true, I guess authors may have decided that one fight over a woman is enough.

I thought that Valygar is too generic and personality-less to have a romantic interest - or any emotions, for that matter.

[SithLackey]

Back to the OP topic...

They are very hard games, this is true. I have to second some of the earlier advice, though. Save often. Before, after and randomly in between fights (ALL of them) and important diologues. Go through BG1 first. You have to learn how to use the spells and equipment of D&D v2 before you can seriously consider surviving in BG2. At lower levels, lots of stuff kills you. All you can do about it is to wander through the wilderness and level up (so... slowly) until it is less of a challenge. Find a good cleric. They have less totally awesome buff spells and no spontaneous casting here, so memorize healing. Buff fully before any fight that killed you last time. You will go through most tough fights at least twice. Save-or-suck/lose/die spells only work on your party, for some reason. Play an elven fighter specializing in the bow your first time through BG1. Play someone with decent thieving abilities EVERY time in BG2. If you are really having trouble keeping track of optimization and/or the innumerable subplots in BG1, the strategy guide is a worthwhile investment.

[Om]

I cut my cRPG teeth on BG1 so I'm having trouble figuring out just why people think the sequel was tough. Personally though I love BG1 to bits. The story and challenge are just right.

[Arang]

This is blasphemy! This is madness!

For BG II at least, not all quests are meant to be done at the beginning of the game, even though they might seem like it. For example, you get the Unseeing Eye quest the first time you enter the Temple District, which might be in Chapter 2. At first glance it's easy to think that it's an easy quest, but you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of going through it straight out of Irenicus' dungeon if you don't have either amazing luck, mad skillz or both.

So, the bottom line is to know when to back down. If the fights are too hard, go do something else and level up a bit, grab some swanky magic items and come back to try again. Make sure you have enough arcane firepower, because at some point everyone will be too well-defended for a straight fighter to get them without someone debuffing for them.

Rest often if you're having trouble. It might not give you that real D&D feeling, but you can usually rest safely and go back at it with full HP and a loaded spellbook. Also, stock up on Minute Meteors early in the game, they're the best weapon for a mage. Try to take advantage of backstabbing (make the thief Hide in Shadows (F6), cast Invisibility on them, make sure they're standing behind who you want them to backstab, and attack. If everything goes as it should, you'll probably be instantly killing casters, which will have a huge effect on the rest of the fight).

The spells can be confusing at first, but I usually have no problem learning the symbols. Maybe that's just me, though.

Quests you can probably do from the very beginning of the game:
The circus tent is fairly easy and gives you Aerie, who's a pretty good caster.
The Copper Coronet in the Slums has a questline that is on the hard end of doable, as well as giving you some pretty good items.
The de'Arnise hold is pretty easy, especially considering the rewards it gives you.
Trademeet is IMO one of the harder to do at the very beginning, but it gives you precious gold and XP.
If you take Yoshimo to the Docks he'll point you towards the Shadow Thieves, and that quest line is farily short and easy, but you'll need +2 blunt weapons or loads of spells to pull it off, so come here after you've done a few other quests.


Quests you should probably NOT do before the above quests:

The Windspear Hills quest is doable, but the fun part you probably can't do at lower levels. I won't tell you why.
The Umar Hills should probably wait.
The Unseeing Eye quest is best done at level 12 and up, at the least.
The Planar Sphere has a few hard battles, and once you start it, you cannot go back until you're done.
Also, get some experience before going ahead with the main quest. There's more than enough gold to get yourself some nice items as well as pay what you need to.

If you have the DVD set (which I presume you have) there is a bonus merchant in the Adventurer's Mart who has some awesome items. I always, always get at least two: the Robe of Vecna and the Shield of Balduran. I often get the Mercykiller Ring, Sensate Amulet and the rest of Balduran's kit, but those two are the essentials. In addition, others speak highly of Vhailor's Helm, but I've never tested it. If you don't have the other bonus merchant (or the first one) you can get both here (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/index_mods_hosted_bioware.php). Apparently Joluv's best items are the Sling of Everard and the Defender of Easthaven, but don't take my word for it.

If you still can't do it, some blatant cheese tips:
Get a mage. Then get loads of scrolls. Then pull the difficulty all the way down to Easy, scribe all the scrolls, and then delete the spells from your spellbook. Scribe more scrolls. Scribing gives you XP, and for just a few thousand gold you can easily pick up tens of thousands of XP early in the game. Useful if you really need an extra level.

If you buy a Potion of Master Thievery and give it to your thief, you can steal just about anything from shops. Use it to get good items, and if you need more gold, go to the Docks and find the building marked Mae'var's Guildhall on the map. Inside, barter with the barkeeper. He has infinite +2 maces and will buy stolen goods, so steal as many as you can carry, then sell them back to him for lots of profit. Then buy infinite scrolls and do the above.

[SurlySeraph]

Well, if you had a female character, the only option was Anomen, who kills enemies by sheer arrogance. Why the obvious choice, Haer-Dalis, is not an option, is beyond me.

Haer'Dalis was supposed to be a romantic interest. The programmers ran out of time. You can get mods online that put romances that aren't in the game in, and I think there's one for Haer'Dalis. There are also romance mods for Nalia and Imoen (even though Nalia's annoying and Imoen's your half-sister, and one for (in the Throne of Baal expansion) Sarevok

The biggest thing you can do to make the game easier? Pause. Use spacebar. Pause at the start of every fight. Unpause, let things happen for a moment, then pause again so you can keep track of everything that's going on. You can give orders while paused, and this is critically important. If the enemy mage starts casting something, pause, select someone with a bow, and shoot him to interrupt the spell. If you try to do everything real-time, it's just damn near impossible. But if you pause all the time to divide the combat into rounds and give orders, you can keep track of what's going on well enough to actually have effective tactics.

Other than that? If a mage starts casting a spell, hit him. Everyone who is in range to attack him should. You might not interrupt the spell, but it's worth the effort. Same with clerics and druids, but you're less likely to hit them because they have armor, so it's less likely to help. At the start of fights, if you can tell who's who in the enemy group, always kill the cleric first (so he can't buff everyone), then the mage (so he can't buff the party or nuke you), then whoever's closest to your spellcasters (you may have to kill this person first, actually). If they have a thief, keep track of him. Backstabs hurt - don't let the enemy backstab you, and send someone to backstab the enemy in combat. If you have invisibility potions, give them to your thief for backstabbing in combat. And remember, you actually have to be behind the target to backstab, and you have to be using a melee weapon. Ranged combat is really, really effective (in my experience). Give a bow or crossbow to everyone who can use one, and darts to everyone who can't. Just focus fire on one target until it dies, then switch to another. Rinse and repeat. You may want to put up summoned creatures, or a spell like Web or Entangle to make sure the targets don't close with you. Of course, if you have a fighter-type with really low dexterity, it's good to put that person out in front to fight people before they close with the rest of the party.

[Glaivemaster]

I never liked the games either. I tried playing single player, but not only do I suck, bad, I didn't like the story, the interface or pretty much anything really. And I can't keep track of more than one person.

Multiplayer's still a good laugh though. Not having to keep track of everyone, but just myself, made things easier, and so I could loosen up to have more fun as well. Having players who knew what they were doing and controlled the more important characters (Wizard, Cleric) also helped. So that's my advice - to get the most out of the game, multiplayer

That's it, sorry. I just followed orders

[Saithis Bladewing]

I enjoyed Baldur's Gate when I was younger, however, coming back to the series in more recent years, I find it incredibly boring. There are so many other things I'd rather do than play them.

[Lorthain]

I like the games now but didn't enjoy BG2 very much when I first played through it. I'll share what I can think of that made the game enjoyable. These tips are mostly for BG2.

First, use the config utility to customize the hotkeys. I recommend setting the keys for 'weapon slot 1', 'weapon slot 2' (I put melee weapons on 1 and ranged on 2), 'stealth', 'trap detection', and 'thieving' all within easy access. Other useful keys include 'group stop', 'toggle AI', 'guard/protect', 'return to game', and the inventory and character record pages.

Next, I suggest going to the gameplay/misc tab and turning up the framerate to ~45 (game runs 50% faster, a personal preference), turning the path search nodes down to something small (40k instead of 400k, helping characters respond faster to commands), and setting the 'tiles precache' value to ~10% (so you can get right to playing a new area and letting it load in the background).

BG2 Tweak Pack:
http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2tweaks/index.php
This mod has some very useful options, the best of which is unlimited item stacking (because the game shouldn't be a hunt for inventory space). It also has some other useful changes for you to look through.

BG2 Fix Pack:
http://www.gibberlings3.net/readmes/readme-bg2fixpack.html
A variety of fixes. You can read through the list and pick what you like. The site also has other quality BG2 mods.

My final major interface suggestion is to turn on the cheat keys (the steps can be found on the internet easily enough). This is not to cheat in the game and make it easier; this is to enable the ctrl+J key which teleports your party to the cursor. Use it outside of battles when wandering around town to quickly reach your destination. Without teleporting, I doubt I would have replayed BG2 nearly as many times as I have.

To help with game startup, you could also go to the CD2/Movies folder and rename Movies.bif, skipping the intro logos.

You may also want to look into the BG1 Tutu mod, which updates it to the updated BG2 game engine (I have never played BG1 in its native engine).
http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=content&task=blogcategory&id=143&Itemid=98

Ingame, I recommend looking at the autopause settings if you haven't already. Pausing on sighting an enemy is very useful, as well as upon detecting a trap. Also, look into assigning AI scripts to each character (in the customize menu on the character record page). I normally use auto-attack scripts and control spellcasting myself.


I don't have much gameplay advice; you'll probably enjoy it more exploring on your own. However, you might consider playing a wizard slayer in BG2. They look terrible at a glance, but having recently played one I have to say they are great for taking down most of the BG2 wizards (the spell failure works through stoneskins and stacks up very quickly), useful since wizards are one of the most annoying aspects of BG2. I only mention a specific class because it might get overlooked otherwise, but you should play what you like.

In general, 'dispel magic' is a good BG2 spell for getting rid of all those nasty effects thrown at your party. Also, consider playing a part of four, since that will give everybody 50% more experience than a party of six. Otherwise, feel free to explore your different spell and equipment options; some of them can be surprisingly useful.

[Triaxx]

First time I played BG, I utterly hated it. Everything took forever, and nothing couldn't kill me. Two things to try, is one, run through, until level 2, and then export. Start over with the imported character.

On the other hand, start a single player multiplayer game, and create six full elven Rangers with 19 dex. Equip with Composite Longbows, and lots of arrows. You can now kill anything until the later wizard bosses in very short order.

If you're playing fair, makesure your wizards are learning lots of Magic missile. It always hits, always disrupts, and begins to instantly wipe out the lesser level foes later on.

---

BG2, should be ignored until you complete BG (at least to chapter 6.)

Once you start, you'll probably want a walkthrough. Don't forget to rest as soon as you have the party together, or you'll not have any spells for those that can cast them. Leaving gets nasty, since you will encounter spellcasters, even before leaving the first dungeon. Archers got... castrated in BG2, so a wizard (Imoen), casting Magic missile is the best way to halt spellcasters.

In city, wander between areas fighting in the random encounters. Rylock at the docks is a great early XP quest, since it's a quick, if not particularly easy fight, and then a short run to some XP.

---

Don't forget to set your scripts, which is located: (R)>Customize>Scripts, all of which are self-explanatory, and can be set for all characters. In case you didn't know. While the Bioware scripts are sufficient for BG, I prefer the eSeries scripts for BG2, and TOB.

Don't forget the Auto-Pause features, under (O)>Gameplay>Auto-pause. It'll give it a nearly turn-based feel if you want, but I only turn on Character Death, and Enemy Sighted.

[Jerthanis]

Also, consider playing a part of four, since that will give everybody 50% more experience than a party of six. Otherwise, feel free to explore your different spell and equipment options; some of them can be surprisingly useful.

I had a friend who did this, playing with a smaller party, but when I played, all my characters hit the XP cap anyway, so just be aware of that. Smaller parties will go through the game faster as you need to do fewer quests to fully outfit everyone and level them up, but if you take your time, you'll probably end the game with 6 partymembers at the XP cap anyway.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

Another thing I think has yet to be mentioned is the use of the pause button/feature. The game is much easier once when you use it, and can plan your attacks. Also, if you've never played 2nd ed DnD (like myself) you may not understand everything (such as THACO). Once the friend I borrowed the game from explained a few things to me, it became a much better, easier, more fun game.

[Mysticaloctopus]

Oh, also, make sure you keep a couple spare weapons on hand, and if you can afford it, a spare armor set. Nasty little plot hook at the beginning of BG I...

Wait, a rust monster? Not played BGI/II here, so I don't know.

Also, your edit summary, MOAR HALP, suggests one of two things.


You liek cheezburgr
Itty bitty baby, itty bitty boat.

[Tom_Violence]

You're a blasphemer?! I hate Minsc! Beat that!

[Arang]

Wait, a rust monster? Not played BGI/II here, so I don't know.



No, there's an iron shortage, which is supposed to force you to go to the iron mines and kill all the critters there and then get hooked into the main plot.

[Timberwolf]

I'm with you Dragor.

And know what else ?

Fallout bores me witless.

yes, that's right, I hate Baldur's Gate and Fallout.

No, I'm the bigger heretic Tom Violence.

[Jibar]

So if that makes them Blasphemers, what am I, considering I'm never played Fallout, Baldur's Gate, and only have a vague understanding of who Minsc is?

[Dragor]

I'm with you Dragor.

And know what else ?

Fallout bores me witless.

yes, that's right, I hate Baldur's Gate and Fallout.

No, I'm the bigger heretic Tom Violence.

Timberwolf.... I think I'm in love. :smalltongue:

Fallout was so hard for me to get into. So, so, SO hard. I love the setting, but I always felt that I was stumbling in the dark with no clue where to go. There's open-ended games, and there's "Right, here's the world, do what you like." I was out of my depth. I like games which give me a direction. I mean, they don't have to be totally linear (see Morrowind), but just so that I can say, "Well, I can do A, B or C," instead of Fallout offering me the whole alphabet. And then numbers. And then letters associated with numbers.

[Tekar]

Thas part of the fun in these game, you actually have to think a bit in order to succeed. Tough I must say that I was about 16 when I first played BG1 and even tough I had some troubles at first (it was my first RPG after all) I did finish the entire series without too much touble and without any cheating.

Just use pause enough, read trough the manual a bit and use a fighter if you're still having a hard time.

If you're feeling overwhelmed by all the quests then just choose one and do that one, it really isn't that hard. The only times you have to pay a bit of attention is during the main quest sequences. It's allways clear where you have to go for the main quest if you just read the dialogue.

[Om]

So if that makes them Blasphemers, what am I, considering I'm never played Fallout, Baldur's Gate, and only have a vague understanding of who Minsc is?*Twitch* What's that? You love Baldur's Gate and Fallout? Me too. Isn't that nice. *Twitch*

[Hawriel]

Only cheat I used was the one for removing the level cap. in BG2 I used the swashbuckler varient to the thrief. It was a very good class. With the level caps removied I think I finished the game with my main character around 25 or so. In 2nd ed exp was different for each class. the thief always was 2 levels higher than the rest of the party.

here are some tips for fighting.

try and get your wizards the magic breach spells. they are only made for the BG games but they are needed. these spells strip off the protection spells from enemy spell users. You need that. the spell casters have a trigger that pops of 3 or 4 protection spells with you trigger the encounter, and thats just the cannon fodder you have to fight through.

you can kill some boss monsters with good prep and cheesy tactics. Particularly the dragons. if you dont want to loose at least half your part I recomend doing this: save your game right when you enter the room with the dragon. Not out side the room. walk your part to the dragon and stop just befor the fog of war would uncover him. now take your spell casters and use AOE spells and target the edge of the fog of war, wich should be right infront of the dragon. you can spell the crap out of the dragon with out triggering the encounter if you keep the dragon in the fog. oh and dont use fireball its a red dragon after all.

I cant remember how I beat the lich. it was the hardest fight in the game. it was worth it though because for loot it has one of the best swords in the game. its like a holy sun sword that my swashbucker could use. oh he used two longwords. he was as mean as Minsk.

by all jem pouches and bags ware ever you can they make inventory so much easyer to handle.

[Morty]

So if that makes them Blasphemers, what am I, considering I'm never played Fallout, Baldur's Gate, and only have a vague understanding of who Minsc is?

A person who missed two great series of games and should correct that mistake immediately:smalltongue:

[SurlySeraph]

Oh, I forgot to tell you about a very good (read: cheap) bug exploit to use. When you enter a room containing a powerful enemy that you can't yet hope to defeat (lich, red dragon, etc.), pause. Select the "talk" button on the interface, and then click on the enemy. Then unpause. It'll do nothing for a few seconds while it waits for you to talk to it. Use that time to blast it; it may be enough time to kill it outright, especially against a lich.

Other tips: As mentioned before, Breach is the most useful spell in the game. Always have it ready, and get Spell Penetration too (for the defensive spells that Breach doesn't take out). When you know there are going to be tough enemies in the area you're about to enter, give your party layers of buffs. Blessing, Chant, Haste, Stoneskin, Barkskin, Invulnerability Sphere, everything else you can think of. You may want to summon creatures before buffing up, so that your summons will be buffed too, but that'll reduce the length of time that you will have the summoned creatures helping you. Healing Potions are very, very useful. Keep them around.

And, of course, save often and in different slots.

[Elliot Kane]

I have to admit, I found BG1 pretty hard when I started out with it, and I certainly wouldn't recommend starting with a single class mage. But I persevered, and it does get easier as you gain companions and levels and useful stuff.

There are a couple of quite hard points later, especially in the Tales... expansion pack, but nothing that's unbeatable with a bit of care and creativity.

BG2 is easier than BG1, although the starting section is annoying to get through and there are some stupid glitches that will make you want to scream at points (Anyone who wanted to retrieve stuff from a certain tube and couldn't will know what I mean).

Overall though, I enjoyed both games a lot when I got into them, and have beaten both multiple times. I think the interface is actually pretty simple, and I've never had a problem there, even when first starting out.

Neither game is even close to being a match for PS:T, of course, but then nothing else is either, in terms of CRPGs :)

[averagejoe]

So if that makes them Blasphemers, what am I, considering I'm never played Fallout, Baldur's Gate, and only have a vague understanding of who Minsc is?

Merely an uneducated savage. :smalltongue:

Fallout... it seems like I should know what that is...

[Wolfgang]

The plot arc for the two games is serviceable and the characters in Baldur's Gate II had some awesome moments (except the romances, which are always lame in every RPG ever).

There were a lot of things I disliked about Baldur's Gate I that have already been mentioned (the gameplay, the stats, the world, the quests, and on and on), but the worst part for me was the simple inability to run combined with terrible pathfinding. These two things frequently led to the most obnoxious phrase of all time: "you must gather your party before venturing forth." What? Why? This does nothing but artificially lengthen the game and bore me to death, not to mention annoy me. I still wince every time I even imagine that line being spoken. God.

Anyway, I got to the city, saw how big it was, made a quick guess as to how long it would take to walk to and from all the quest-givers and load all the screens, and was hit with such a wave of despair that I uninstalled the game, never to touch it again. Good riddance. And yes, I have read the rest of the plot I missed. No, it wouldn't have been worth it.

Now, maybe I'm a moron and never saw the option to turn run on. My counter to that is: why in the name of all the gods is running not on by default?

The only reason I managed to slog through Baldur's Gate II was because you could run. Nothing else was fixed except writing some interesting character interactions. Even then, I only managed to do so after taking several day- or week-long breaks from it to play more interesting games.

Burn me at the stake if you wish. Just don't force me to play either of these games again and I'll die happy.


EDIT: Wait, I actually don't think you can run in BG2 either. Why did I finish it then? :smallconfused:

[Triaxx]

You probably figured out that they move much, much faster if you crank up the AI updates. Plus BG2 is a much better game.

Fallout... the first game did infact have that major difficulty of not telling you where to go, or how to get there. Fallout 2 gave you at least a clue, if not more than a general direction.

[Lorthain]

One other tip I thought of: during dialogue you can use the numpad (with numlock on) to navigate conversations. I find this easier than using the mouse.

Also, you don't actually need a mage, cleric, or even thief, so if a character isn't pulling their weight feel free to replace them with someone better. The wizard slayer I mentioned playing was a solo character who bashed locks, ran through traps, and used a lot of resting to heal.



I had a friend who did this, playing with a smaller party, but when I played, all my characters hit the XP cap anyway, so just be aware of that. Smaller parties will go through the game faster as you need to do fewer quests to fully outfit everyone and level them up, but if you take your time, you'll probably end the game with 6 partymembers at the XP cap anyway.

You are right; depending on how much you focus on gaining exp and which expansions you are playing with, both parties may reach the level cap. Even so, hitting the cap will happen very late for a six member party; for the vast majority of the game a four member party will have a significant level advantage. Also, a smaller party is easier to handle (particularly in ambushes), can better protect everybody (particularly with limited numbers of potions), can worry more about role playing and less about killing every last monster for exp, and has an easier time obtaining good equipment as you mentioned. On the other hand, a large party gets more dialogue, which alone is reason enough for the extra members. :)




Fallout was so hard for me to get into. So, so, SO hard. I love the setting, but I always felt that I was stumbling in the dark with no clue where to go. There's open-ended games, and there's "Right, here's the world, do what you like." I was out of my depth. I like games which give me a direction. I mean, they don't have to be totally linear (see Morrowind), but just so that I can say, "Well, I can do A, B or C," instead of Fallout offering me the whole alphabet. And then numbers. And then letters associated with numbers.

Was Fallout really that bad? When I talked to people (in the game, not in real life) they always told me where I should go next to follow the main quest; the BG games weren't really any different. Fallout 1 went something like this:


Overseer: "Go get a water chip. Try Vault 15; here's the location."
(Player wanders to V15, conveniently finding a town halfway there. Nothing is in V15, so player tries the town.)
Townspeople: "We don't have a chip, but here are the locations for Junktown and the Hub; ask them."
(Player goes to Junktown and gets referred to the Hub. Player goes to the Hub and gets referred to the Water Merchants.)
WM's: "We don't have a chip, but you should try Necropolis; they have lots of water. Here's the location."
(Player goes to Necropolis.)
Ghouls: "Yes, we have a water chip."

At this point, the first half of the game is finished just by following the provided leads.

[SurlySeraph]

The plot arc for the two games is serviceable and the characters in Baldur's Gate II had some awesome moments (except the romances, which are always lame in every RPG ever).
I thought the Viconia romance was pretty good. The Jaheira romance is fun if you have Aerie in the party to argue at her.


There were a lot of things I disliked about Baldur's Gate I that have already been mentioned (the gameplay, the stats, the world, the quests, and on and on), but the worst part for me was the simple inability to run combined with terrible pathfinding. These two things frequently led to the most obnoxious phrase of all time: "you must gather your party before venturing forth." What? Why? This does nothing but artificially lengthen the game and bore me to death, not to mention annoy me. I still wince every time I even imagine that line being spoken. God.
They had that so you couldn't get out of fights by just leaving one person at the edge of the map and going to a different area whenever the rest of the party ran into trouble. I admit that it's extremely annoying.


Anyway, I got to the city, saw how big it was, made a quick guess as to how long it would take to walk to and from all the quest-givers and load all the screens, and was hit with such a wave of despair that I uninstalled the game, never to touch it again. Good riddance. And yes, I have read the rest of the plot I missed. No, it wouldn't have been worth it.
You want a short DnD RPG? Good luck with that.


Now, maybe I'm a moron and never saw the option to turn run on. My counter to that is: why in the name of all the gods is running not on by default?
To make it harder to run away from fights, to let you enjoy the scenery, to... uh... to prevent suspension of disbelief as the party runs for 12 miles without stopping?


The only reason I managed to slog through Baldur's Gate II was because you could run. Nothing else was fixed except writing some interesting character interactions. Even then, I only managed to do so after taking several day- or week-long breaks from it to play more interesting games.

Burn me at the stake if you wish. Just don't force me to play either of these games again and I'll die happy.


EDIT: Wait, I actually don't think you can run in BG2 either. Why did I finish it then? :smallconfused:
Because it was an awesome game. You just don't remember that it was.

[Om]

EDIT: Wait, I actually don't think you can run in BG2 either. Why did I finish it then? :smallconfused:Walking speed was 50% faster in BG2.

Incidentally I disagree with just about every point you raised with the exception of the pathfinding. BG was far from perfect but it was still a great game. In terms of story and innovation it was consistently superior to the sequel and even many so-called RPGs today. Durlag's Tower remains one of my fondest gaming experiences and one of the few times when I was genuinely unsettled by a game environment.


Fallout... the first game did infact have that major difficulty of not telling you where to go, or how to get there. Fallout 2 gave you at least a clue, if not more than a general direction.I disagree. In Fallout you are given a clear objective right from the start. Of course how you get there is entirely up to you (in sharp contrast to more linear games) but, as Lorthain says, there were always a few handy signposts to point you in the right direction.

[Winterwind]

I enjoyed Baldur's Gate I until I got to Baldur's Gate itself.

The difficulty is fairly high at the beginning, seeing as even one wolf can easily take you down, but as soon as you have more than one or two party members and reach 2nd/3rd level it gets much easier.

If you take your time at character creation and roll long enough to get decent ability scores it gets even easier. A fighter with 18 strength and dexterity points, with a decent armour and shield, is almost unhittable and deals huge damage for the enemies you are facing at a given time, unless you go into the completely wrong direction.

However, once I reached the city, and saw how huge it was - especially, how many quests there were to be solved - I lost interest. It was so huge I couldn't remember anymore where which person was, what they wanted from me, and where.
The fact the quest log is completely worthless didn't help, either.

[Tom_Violence]

I would agree with the assertion that Fallout isn't difficult to get through. So long as you actually pay attention to what you're told, it goes very smooth. You always know where to go, even if it doesn't tell you exactly where to look when you get there. A bit of common sense ought to see you through. :smallwink:

[Tengu]

(except the romances, which are always lame in every RPG ever).


Except Final Fantasy 7.

Speaking of which, here are the RPGs I consider canon, which everyone should be familiar with to have an idea about the genre.

Classic:
Betrayal at Krondor
Baldur's Gate II
Fallout
Fallout 2

jRPG:
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy 6
Final Fantasy 7

Borderline:
System Shock 2
Deus Ex

Pure Awesome:
Planescape: Torment

[Dragor]

I've never played PS:T. I feel real bad that I haven't, because it gets a whole lot of awesome said about it. Must....find....copy.....

[Tengu]

It's just as good as it's claimed to be, but be wary - it starts rather slowly. There are some people who got put off by the mortuary at the beginning and never finished the game. Don't be one of those people.

[Wolfgang]

In terms of story and innovation it was consistently superior to the sequel and even many so-called RPGs today.

This is because "okay" is much better than "bad", which is what most RPGs from both back then and today are. I freely admit that Baldur's Gate was better than a lot of things I've played, I just have the tendency to be an ass when it comes to my opinions. And facts too, come to think of it. :smalltongue:

As for romances, I did like certain parts of Viconia's. It still suffered a bit from the syndrome, nay, the epidemic, that I'm about to complain about in only vague relation to this thread that actually isn't always true I'm just in a really ranty mood so read away if you enjoy a good rant.

Tengu, you're right, FF7 did have a good one. I thought the one with Aeris was actually pretty decent, because it never got to that inevitable point of the woman getting flustered and tongue-tied about her true feelings for the big strong main guy after hiding them for so long. Despite all previous character traits she may have had which preclude this sort of reaction, because when women get lusty (and with such a big strong main guy, what woman wouldn't?), everyone knows they all act the same. Usually their love turns them into fawning idiots, but no matter how they treat it, they always need the PC's reassurances after they admit everything or they will hate/love him forever. Which they already did at first sight anyway because he's just that manly and charismatic.

This is a ubiquitous process which usually ends with kissing and/or implied sex, then it's never mentioned again except for cheesy platitudes about love enduring forever and making it through the game to live happily ever after or whatever. I just can't shake the feeling that without certain other events happening, FF7 would have eventually developed to such a scene. I've been let down by the overwhelming lameness of too many video game romances not to believe otherwise. It all just reeks of tacked-on fanservice, letting you experience what it's like to have beautiful, strong-willed woman worshiping you and just begging to be loved like only you can love them, all while completely ignoring the needs of the story. Just think how much better the stories and gameplay of RPGs could be if all that romance writing was cut. :smallfrown:

Now the one with Barrett... that's a well-written romance. :smallamused:

All this applies unless you were talking about the sort-of romance with Tifa. That one sucked because someone who knows that much about Cloud's past and keeps silent for 90% of the game while people are fighting and dying over it deserves no love. What a selfish censored word.


You want a short DnD RPG? Good luck with that.
No, I just want every RPG to have the length (and... every other quality, actually) of Planescape: Torment. It was perfect. :smallsigh:

[Tekar]

It's just as good as it's claimed to be, but be wary - it starts rather slowly. There are some people who got put off by the mortuary at the beginning and never finished the game. Don't be one of those people.
Yeah, the game is a bit slow at the start and perhaps the combat isn't all that, but when you get to the end of the game and all the pieces start to come together you can't do anything but love it. It was the only game that actually managed to make me feel a strong emotion at the end. Both for the story and because I was sad I finished it.

[Om]

This is because "okay" is much better than "bad", which is what most RPGs from both back then and today are. I freely admit that Baldur's Gate was better than a lot of things I've played, I just have the tendency to be an ass when it comes to my opinions. And facts too, come to think of it. :smalltongue: Well what are you comparing it to? Some perfect RPG that never existed? Or some jewel such as PS:T? Not every game can be stunningly good and perfect in every possible way.

[Elliot Kane]

PS:T is unique and unequaled. It's not really fair to compare every other CRPG to it. It's what the game companies should all be aiming at, but too many of them just don't get the idea of what an RPG actually is, if their output is any indication.

As for romances, the best I've run across are in Jade Empire SE. I know the box describes it as an 'Action-RPG' but it's far closer to the real thing than a lot of games that pretend to be RPGs but aren't (Hello, NWN1). Both the romantic options you are given (As a male character. Haven't played female) are great characters in their own right.

The only female character in BG2 who is not a complete pain is Imoen and those of you who have played the game know the problem there... She would have made perfect sense as the romantic 'other', were it not for that. A wasted opportunity. Jaheira is just creepy - her 'beloved' husband has been dead, what, a whole three minutes? The ex-winged elf is a pathetic whiner, and Nalia is not an option (A shame, as she's the 'least worst' female who is not Imoen). Viconia might even be a worse option than Jaheira, were that possible. I'm not evil enough to inflict any of them on my poor character.

As a side note - Durlag's Tower (From Tales Of The Sword Coast) is probably the best dungeon crawl I've ever seen in a CRPG.

[Tengu]

What about Mazzy? She's cool.

[Dragor]

Neeeeeeeeeeeoeoooooooo!

I'm finding out about characters that I shouldn't know exist!

*hides eyes*

And.... Khalid's gonna die? Damn. I always liked his timid attitude.

[Elliot Kane]

I think Khalid is the single character most often killed off deliberately by the player, honestly. I didn't, but almost everyone I know who played the game got him killed pretty fast. If you're really up against it and you absolutely need all characters, he's the one most likely to get everyone killed, but he and Jaheira are a package deal... Unless Khalid dies... I WAS really tempted, mind...

***

I don't recall Mazzy, so won't comment on her.

[SurlySeraph]

The only female character in BG2 who is not a complete pain is Imoen and those of you who have played the game know the problem there... She would have made perfect sense as the romantic 'other', were it not for that. A wasted opportunity. Jaheira is just creepy - her 'beloved' husband has been dead, what, a whole three minutes? The ex-winged elf is a pathetic whiner, and Nalia is not an option (A shame, as she's the 'least worst' female who is not Imoen). Viconia might even be a worse option than Jaheira, were that possible. I'm not evil enough to inflict any of them on my poor character.

I found Imoen somewhat annoying in BG2, actually. She's whinier than she was in BG1. Of course, she isn't insanely clingy like Aerie, or judgemental like Jaheira, or evil like Viconia, but I wouldn't call any of them a complete pain. If you have Aerie and Jaheira in the party, Aerie will actually tell Jaheira that she should be ashamed to be going after the main character so soon after her husband died, which made it seem a lot less improbable to me - Jaheira just isn't a very nice person and didn't love Khalid that much. It's not like she's good-aligned. Viconia's evil and extremely cruel, but she's never boring and rarely is predictable. Her dialogues with other characters are often pretty funny, especially with the other evil characters (Edwin hits on her and she leads him on, Korgan threatens her in extreme terms and she mocks him). The Viconia romance is probably the most interesting of the three. There are mods available for romances with Nalia and Imoen, though I haven't tried either of them.

[Elidyr]

Yeah, the interface is pretty cumbersome, I don't think anyone's going to argue that.

I like it, it's a lot more user friendly then oh, say Neverwinter nights 2 UI which was just about the most horrible thing ever.

[Wolfgang]

As for romances, the best I've run across are in Jade Empire SE. I know the box describes it as an 'Action-RPG' but it's far closer to the real thing than a lot of games that pretend to be RPGs but aren't (Hello, NWN1). Both the romantic options you are given (As a male character. Haven't played female) are great characters in their own right.


Ironically, I was thinking specifically of Jade Empire and Bioware's other recent money-maker Knights of the Old Republic when I wrote my previous post. :smalltongue:


Well what are you comparing it to? Some perfect RPG that never existed? Or some jewel such as PS:T? Not every game can be stunningly good and perfect in every possible way.

No, I'm comparing it to RPGs from that era I enjoyed more, and RPGs from this era I enjoyed more, then inferring the existence of a ton of worse games. That is a fair assumption I think. Do you want me to list them all? Because I'd really rather not. I liked Tactics Ogre (old) and Knights of the Old Republic II (new) more than Baldur's Gate, and I liked every FF except 6 (especially the new ones) and 7th Saga (old) less.

[Grey Paladin]

:smallfurious:
Die, Infidels! Die and be forgotten!
*Puts on his Amulet of Might, Casts Time Stop, Acceleration, and then proceeds to cast 20 spells/round*

Even in 2E cRPGs wizards still own everything else :smallbiggrin: (Very much because all Symbols have a casiting time of 0 thanks to the above combo)

Seriously though, BG is the best Dungeon Crawler ever, if that's your thing you'll love, if its not, why are you playing a 'crawler?

[Grey Paladin]

Err . . look! a bird!

[Elliot Kane]

I found Imoen somewhat annoying in BG2, actually. She's whinier than she was in BG1. Of course, she isn't insanely clingy like Aerie, or judgemental like Jaheira, or evil like Viconia, but I wouldn't call any of them a complete pain. If you have Aerie and Jaheira in the party, Aerie will actually tell Jaheira that she should be ashamed to be going after the main character so soon after her husband died, which made it seem a lot less improbable to me - Jaheira just isn't a very nice person and didn't love Khalid that much. It's not like she's good-aligned. Viconia's evil and extremely cruel, but she's never boring and rarely is predictable. Her dialogues with other characters are often pretty funny, especially with the other evil characters (Edwin hits on her and she leads him on, Korgan threatens her in extreme terms and she mocks him). The Viconia romance is probably the most interesting of the three. There are mods available for romances with Nalia and Imoen, though I haven't tried either of them.

I'd be quite tempted by the Nalia romance, except that she's kinda not needed for the party. Imoen... well, considering the plot, that's... somewhere I'll not be going...


Ironically, I was thinking specifically of Jade Empire and Bioware's other recent money-maker Knights of the Old Republic when I wrote my previous post. :smalltongue:

To each their own, I guess :D

[Triaxx]

BG2's dumbest tactic ever was involved with three chain contingencies. Packed full of Pierce Magic.

Then go to Time Stop with Improved Aclarity, Amulet of Power, and Robe of Vecna. Then spam Magic Missile. It will kill just about anything in one shot.

[Wolfgang]

:smallfurious:
Die, Infidels! Die and be forgotten!
*Puts on his Amulet of Might, Casts Time Stop, Acceleration, and then proceeds to cast 20 spells/round*

Even in 2E cRPGs wizards still own everything else :smallbiggrin: (Very much because all Symbols have a casiting time of 0 thanks to the above combo)


*Dies, then rises again after you get bored and leave, as he is doomed to do for all eternity.* :smallfrown:

[Jerthanis]

...These two things frequently led to the most obnoxious phrase of all time: "you must gather your party before venturing forth." What? Why? This does nothing but artificially lengthen the game and bore me to death, not to mention annoy me. I still wince every time I even imagine that line being spoken. God.

This is actually a complaint I really don't understand about the games. There are entire mods to take out that aspect, and whenever I talk to people they always mention it being annoying... but I think I heard the entirety of the phrase maybe once in all my playthroughs (or rather play-until-I-get-stucks) of both games. All the other times it was "You must ga-" *cut off as I'm entering the next area* Besides, it's Kevin Michael Richardson, who has one of the coolest voices around, next to Kieth David (Goliath from Gargoyles)

And yeah, movespeed/pathfinding was pretty awful in BG1, but apparently you could increase both in the config, not that you were told that anywhere.

And I really liked Khalid, I kept saying, "I don't care for a 15 strength fighter, but I don't want to give up one of my only healers, and I'm not going to split up the married couple..." but then Khalid kept being so... good at being a fighter. He had really good AC, great HP, he was one of the only straight-classed fighter NPCs, which meant you could actually get him to grand-mastery in longswords... and whenever you were in a serious battle... quaff one of your 6 or 7 potions of various giant strength. Minsc would only be getting a modest +1 to hit and maybe +2 or +3 damage from them, but Khalid gets a monstrous +3 to hit and like, +7 damage from jumping from 15 to 20 (I would have to check my 2nd ed PHB to be sure) making the imbibement of the potion totally worthwhile.

--

And yeah, videogame romances tend to suck, though I kind of enjoyed Viconia's. I played a female in Jade Empire, so my love interest was Sky (Voiced by Cam Clarke! Another all-time favorite of mine!) and didn't recall ever having romantic dialogue with of any kind, yet for some reason he fell for me at the end... wasn't sure what to make of that! I was actually really really impressed in Odin Sphere when a romance occurred and I actually bought it. Even if it's just storytelling and not roleplaying, the very fact that there's a videogame romance that's good is simply stunning.

EDIT: Also, of note is that while technically Imoen and the main character are "siblings" it's possible for you to play any race, which means you can be a full-elf, a dwarf, a halfling, or whatever while Imoen remains human. It's entirely possible that Bhaal (spoilers BTW!) didn't actually carry any actual genetic bearing on any of his "children", and perhaps simply infused them all with his essence, and then it's not really biological incest. It was described to me (by a fan of the pairing) that really, it's no different than two paladins of the same god falling in love. That may not be enough justification for any of you, and it may remain icky. Personally I see Imoen as a close friend that you share a lot of history with... but nothing more.

[Matthew]

Wow. I love the Baldur's Gate Series and don't consider it even vaguely difficult on the Normal Setting, same for Planescape: Torment. Lots of classic fun. I also like Betrayal at Krondor.

[Muz]

I like it, it's a lot more user friendly then oh, say Neverwinter nights 2 UI which was just about the most horrible thing ever.

Quoted for truth. :smallbiggrin:

D&D combat is meant to be played round-by-round (at least it is for those of us folks who walked up hill to the game both ways and played 2nd ed). I auto-paused at the end of each round in BG1 and 2, and NWN2 drove me nuts for the lack of it. (And I know you can manually pause, but that's a discussion for another thread, and it's just not the same.)

[Wolfgang]

EDIT: Also, of note is that while technically Imoen and the main character are "siblings" it's possible for you to play any race, which means you can be a full-elf, a dwarf, a halfling, or whatever while Imoen remains human. It's entirely possible that Bhaal (spoilers BTW!) didn't actually carry any actual genetic bearing on any of his "children", and perhaps simply infused them all with his essence, and then it's not really biological incest. It was described to me (by a fan of the pairing) that really, it's no different than two paladins of the same god falling in love. That may not be enough justification for any of you, and it may remain icky. Personally I see Imoen as a close friend that you share a lot of history with... but nothing more.

It's more that they grew up together. She's an acquired sister, not a genetic sister, and in a lot of ways that would make a romance worse.

[Triaxx]

D&D combat is meant to be played round-by-round (at least it is for those of us folks who walked up hill to the game both ways and played 2nd ed). I auto-paused at the end of each round in BG1 and 2, and NWN2 drove me nuts for the lack of it. (And I know you can manually pause, but that's a discussion for another thread, and it's just not the same.)

Oh Auto-pause what would we do without you. It made these games bearable, since you could set it so that major events, such as character death, or seeing a foe, would instantly alert you. Of course, when BG2 let me shut off autocentering on characters was even better, since it would stop pulling me off my thief for minor threats my fighters could handle.

[Arang]

There is a mod for the ones of you who want an Imoen romance. You didn't hear it from me, though.

Can anyone explain to me a bit more in detail the Wild Mage and what he does? For example, Chaos Shield makes it less likely for the spell to wild surge, but what are the chances of a spell wild surging without Chaos Shield? Is it generally worth it to use Nahal's Reckless Dweomer? Is Nahal's Reckless Dweomer more likely to wild surge if you're trying to use it as a higher level spell? And can other spells than Nahal's Reckless Dweomer wild surge? What is the chance of that happening? I'm playing a Wild Mage, but I'm quite confused.

[Ruerl]

There is a mod for the ones of you who want an Imoen romance. You didn't hear it from me, though.

And I never asked where to find such a mod for additional romances.

That aside...

*walks off and returns with a few stakes, a few bundles of firewood and oil, and sets it all up, before sitting down taking a list of names looking at the people in the thread with an innocent smile*

[Blayze]

Can anyone explain to me a bit more in detail the Wild Mage and what he does?

A Wild Mage is just like your normal specialist Mage, except he has a different set of drawbacks. Rather than being banned from entire schools of magic, there is a 5% chance (I think it was) for any spell he casts to become a Wild Surge. They still get a normal specialist Mage's extra spell slot per level, and they're funnier to play, which makes them the only Mage kit I ever pick (Find the Level 1 NPCs alteration pack for truly epic fun with Imoen as a Wild Mage!).


For example, Chaos Shield makes it less likely for the spell to wild surge, but what are the chances of a spell wild surging without Chaos Shield?

Last I checked, Chaos Shield and Improved Chaos Shield didn't make spells less likely to Wild Surge. They actually gave you bonuses to the Wild Surge result table roll (Either in your ToB manual or on one of the quick-reference charts that come with the game), resulting in higher rolls (And potentially safer results).


Is it generally worth it to use Nahal's Reckless Dweomer?

Would YOU like to have the ability to cast any spell you know (Know, as opposed to 'have memorised'). Put simply, would YOU like to have the ability to become a Sorcerer who can learn spells from scrolls? The answer, of course, is yes. Just don't rely on it. It's risky for a reason.


Is Nahal's Reckless Dweomer more likely to wild surge if you're trying to use it as a higher level spell?

Nahal's Reckless Dweomer ALWAYS surges. By the way, if you click the spell to get to the spell list and then cancel it, you still use up the Nahal spell you had memorised.


And can other spells than Nahal's Reckless Dweomer wild surge?

You are a Wild Mage. EVERYTHING can surge. Nahal's is just a 100% chance to do so.


What is the chance of that happening? I'm playing a Wild Mage, but I'm quite confused.

The natural chance is 5%, although it won't feel like it. Your spells WILL surge. You will change gender, be squashed by cows, lose your gold (Yes, it does happen, and I think it's low on the list, so it's a common early-game event), accidentally fireball people, summon planetars (I think that's how you spell it...).

The chances of you having a negative effect on yourself with a Wild Surge at some point is 100%. Save constantly.


Note: This was all typed from memory and frantic Google searches, so don't blame me if anything's wrong. :)

[Arang]

Thanks, Blayze.

Ruerl: I never saw you. (http://www.imoen.org/)

[Elliot Kane]

Round by round pausing?!? I'd die of boredom three rounds in. I don't see any reason or excuse for it in a computer game, and I loathe it utterly. Sure, I'll pause sometimes if the going gets hectic, but other than that...

There are a great many things I hate about NWN2, but I have no problems with the lack of auto-pause. My biggest gripe is that nowhere in the manual does it tell you that holding down the right mouse key gives you the context menu - allowing you to talk to people in your party! I was three quarters of the way through the game before I discovered it (By complete accident). You'd think that was a slightly important command, but nooo.... That even beats out the whole 'plot designed by AMTRAK' thing and the annoying rigmarole of changing characters and the ridiculous party size you're stuck with for most of the game...

Good characters in NWN2, sure, but as a game it has nothing on the BG series. Which I find myself more and more tempted to play again, with all this reminiscing... :)

[Blayze]

No problem, Arang. A word of warning, however, before you start getting too far into the game with your new spellcaster.

Wild Surges have the potential to perform multiple effects, thanks to two results on the chart: "Roll twice more" and "Roll four more times". The following actually happened to me, in the Copper Coronet of all places, during the pit fight.

Blayze casts Magic Missile.
Wild Surge!
Result: Roll twice more!
Result: Where's my gold?
Result: Roll four more times.
Result: What's this in my pocket?
Result: Oops!
Result: Fireball.
Result: What just happened?

While most of the results were harmless, the fireball accidentally took out half the bar's patrons, thus causing my entire Good-aligned party to abandon me, nuking my Reputation completely and making the potential lifespan of my character very, very short...

...especially since I had just escape from Chateau Irenicus.

Although, at the other end of the spectrum, getting the "Area Effect" result coupled with "Summon Planetar" was pretty amusing to watch. If you haven't guessed, that meant the screen filled with summoned Planetars, although only one was under my control.

[Muz]

The one complaint I'd have about wild mages in BG2 is that I wish the wild surge text descriptions were more detailed, as sometimes it's hard to tell what exactly did happen. (What does "Oops!" mean in the above example, for instance?)

As for end-of-round auto-pausing, when I first was introduced to BG1, someone told me "You have to try this game, it's as close to p&p that you'll get on a computer." Since when combat came up in my p&p games, we'd HAVE to pause at the end of each round to declare what we were doing the next round and such, the auto-pausing seemed natural to me. Plus it helps me to stay in control rather than just watching a bunch of AI-scripted PCs run around faster than I can react to (especially when casting a spell)...which is what NWN2 felt like. :smallsmile:

[Timberwolf]

Baldur's Gate 2 I found extremely clunky to control and when I tried to assign AI to get my bloody mages and Clerics to cast, it never did anything. A 6 person party when you have to control everything or watch everyone die, is far too much for me. I was obviously doing something wrong but I couldn't fix whatever it was.

I had 1 mage (Jan), 1 Cleric (Amonen, very well named), jaheira the druid, my thief, Minsc and keldorn. It was just too damn clunky.

[Muz]

I will admit to being a control freak. I like the tactics of chosing when my clerics/mages would cast what spell and where they'd target it. (Plus I get a weird enjoyment out of mage battles where half the battle--if not more--is trying to get the other guy's defenses down first.)

So it's not for everyone. :smallsmile:

...But if you don't like it, you're wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. :smallwink: (Said jokingly.) :smallbiggrin: ...mostly. :smallredface:

[Timberwolf]

True it's useful, but it's still annoying having to do it all the time.

[Grey Paladin]

True it's useful, but it's still annoying having to do it all the time.

For me its annoying when they do stuff I don't specifically command them to do

Yes, I always play an Enchanter with Spell Thesis: Dominate Person in PnP :smallbiggrin:

[Blayze]

The one complaint I'd have about wild mages in BG2 is that I wish the wild surge text descriptions were more detailed, as sometimes it's hard to tell what exactly did happen. (What does "Oops!" mean in the above example, for instance?)

http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg2/character/classes/tables/wildsurge.shtml

I think "Oops!" was the one that caused you to not cast any spell at all, as in "Oops, I booped it up."

[Morty]

If you prefer to just watch your team do everything for you, BG 2 isn't game for you.
And what's with this whole "clunky to control" thing? I found BG interface very easy. Plus you have to control only mages, because fighters will do the slashing as soon as you point them to attack.

[neriana]

*sigh* I miss RPGs like Baldur's Gate that were halfway challenging... stupid hack n'slash garbage taking over the world...

Planescape: Torment is an excellent game wholly for the story; frankly, once you get past a certain point, the gameplay is far too easy. Just like JRPGs nowadays. Depressing.

[Om]

Baldur's Gate 2 I found extremely clunky to control and when I tried to assign AI to get my bloody mages and Clerics to cast, it never did anything. A 6 person party when you have to control everything or watch everyone die, is far too much for me. I was obviously doing something wrong but I couldn't fix whatever it was.Conversely a major issue that I had with the KotOR series was that it didn't give you the same degree of control over the AI party members. Suddenly a whole aspect (strategy) of the game was missing.

[Jensik]

The only thing I have to say:

Tiax.
Rules.

[Triaxx]

Because one day, TIAX will point and click.

Yeah, BG series was incredibly challenging. It's a pity they never made another one.

[Blayze]

Indeed. That level on Spellhold was tremendous amounts of fun the first time around. I was just checking out the NPC names, and all of a sudden- "Wait a sec! Did that just say- It DID!"

"When Tiax rules, breeches will not ride up quite so wedge-like!"

[Elliot Kane]

I love total party control, I must admit :) No wasted spells, no wasted items, no burning through every spell as fast as the character can cast... It's great :) And no desire to kill the druid for turning into a razzle-frazzin' goat or something every three seconds, either! :D

I'd played AD&D a lot before the BG games came out, and to me they were almost like AD&D brought to life (Well, not 'life' but you know what I mean :)). No real allowance for player creativity, sadly, but that was balanced out by the dice being 'behind the scenes', as it were.

I've even started playing BG2 again because this thread reminded me how good it is :) I think I was challenged more times in the first hour of play than I ever was in the whole of NWN2 :D

[Triaxx]

True, there wasn't much room for creativity. But most of that was involved in the actual game play. In particular being able to combine Cleric and Mage spells into a sequencer, or contingency. Doom and Greater Malison, followed with a Finger of Death. Fantastic if you need to punch through high save foe.

[Dragor]

I don't like total party control. I'm a simple minded soul- I play MY character, and not all the NPC's in my party, just like most D&D games. And I'm not an expert on how classes should be used and utilized.

I've started BG1 with a Human Wizard. Two magic missile spells are keeping me well so far- and the bounty fight outside the Friendly Arm was easy compared to when I played my Fighter (why.... can't.... I.... hit you?!?! springs to mind).

So, good times ahead (hopefully).

[Timberwolf]

I don't like total party control. I'm a simple minded soul- I play MY character, and not all the NPC's in my party, just like most D&D games. And I'm not an expert on how classes should be used and utilized.


Yep, fraid so. I'm not a DnD person, I don't know what's best for any given situation and a lot of the time I have my damn mage sitting there on his arse being cut to ribbons and not doing something useful, like the fireball I told him I wanted because that bloody cleric won't cast anything, like CCW. Or the cleric wanders into a melee and the lazy ass mage just won't bloody cast. Largely because I can't control everything at once and a bit of initiative on their part while I'm busy getting my fighter to drink a potion (because that idiot cleric wouldn't cast heal when I told him to or I couldn't make it work properly because Heal and Harm are a pain in the arse frankly in BG) would go down a treat.

I realise I will be leapt on for this, but I vastly prefered playing NWN. The spells didn't fail because you couldn't work them properly, your henchman actually contributed and you only had to worry about your own person. Not for everyone, but I prefered it.

[Ruerl]

*sigh* I miss RPGs like Baldur's Gate that were halfway challenging... stupid hack n'slash garbage taking over the world...

Planescape: Torment is an excellent game wholly for the story; frankly, once you get past a certain point, the gameplay is far too easy. Just like JRPGs nowadays. Depressing.

Planescape: Torment! Seriously one of the best RP games out there, the game feels like planescape and the setting is very well made, even though its somewhat easy for its genre its still one of my alltime favorite games for the story alone, damn good game.

[SurlySeraph]

I love total party control, I must admit :) No wasted spells, no wasted items, no burning through every spell as fast as the character can cast... It's great :) And no desire to kill the druid for turning into a razzle-frazzin' goat or something every three seconds, either! :D

I see you've been playing NWN2. I started cursing at the screen once, because Elanee was SUPPOSED to hang back and spam out Flame Strike, and instead she stopped casting Flame Strike, turned into a freaking badger and charged directly into a pile of undead. You can change the AI options to make them act less stupid, but not much less stupid. Also, use the right-click menu to order them to stay put. That helps a lot.

[Triaxx]

Or going to cast a spell with the druid, to find she's turned into a wolf, and run away with FULL hit points.

[Elliot Kane]

I gave Elanee a good bow and plenty of arrows at one point, and the first thing she did in every fight was turn into something stupid and charge straight in. Still! The latest patch I got cut down on all the wild shape overuse, but not as totally as I would have liked. Her main job was support & healing, not getting killed. This is why I gave her the bow...

I finished NWN2 a couple weeks ago, and it's actually very easy (Despite Elanee). I think there's only one part I had a bit of a problem with, and that wasn't the end fight (Which took me two attempts). Well, two if you count the parts of Neverwinter itself where the enemy are the same colour as the background so take a bit of finding to target...

NWN1 was the most useless excuse for an RPG I've ever slogged through. Not only did the designers not appear to realise that the D&D game is designed for a party, not a single character, but the campaign itself is boring and bug ridden. I utterly hated it. The two expansions get progressively better, but still no-one ever explained to the designers that D&D is a party based game, it would appear...

NWN2 is a massive leap forward from that, and the characters are great, but in terms of actual gameplay it's not a patch on the BG games, IMO. The option of pausing every few seconds is great when you're just learning how to play (I never used it much, but I'm a masochist :D) and in the original BG there's a tutorial area to teach you all about group combat so you can pick it up at your own speed without your character getting killed.

Best of all, the BG games really feel like you have options. OK, so you're gonna follow the main plot sooner or later, yes, but you can ignore it for ages if you like while you wander around doing other things. There's a real sense of freedom that's rare in more modern RPGs.

Since Black Isle vanished, I've yet to see a CRPG as good as the BG series, let alone PS:T. I truly wish they'd been allowed to finish Lionheart properly, though. For the first half, it may just be the best single character RPG ever. Unfortunately... Sigh!

[Triaxx]

Absolutely. And now Bethesda has Fallout 3.

Black Isle desperately needs a successor of it's same caliber. Not just because the last D&D game I saw was Temple of Elemental Evil which was actually a fantastic game, if you could get around the occasional nasty glitches. Like being unable to destroy the Orb of Golden Death, because you couldn't get the orb back to the old lady, because the character who stole it refused to reappear where he was supposed to.

But the combat was terrifically fun, and in true DND turn-based style, even if we were missing squares.

[Tengu]

NWN1 was the most useless excuse for an RPG I've ever slogged through. Not only did the designers not appear to realise that the D&D game is designed for a party, not a single character, but the campaign itself is boring and bug ridden. I utterly hated it. The two expansions get progressively better, but still no-one ever explained to the designers that D&D is a party based game, it would appear...

http://www.pixelscapes.com/penultima/ - The best two campaigns for NWN ever! The author is an anime fan and it shows, since they combine tension, action, drama and great humour. Well, the first and third module in the first campaign are not as good as the rest, but the whole second campaign is awesome.



NWN2 is a massive leap forward from that, and the characters are great, but in terms of actual gameplay it's not a patch on the BG games, IMO. The option of pausing every few seconds is great when you're just learning how to play (I never used it much, but I'm a masochist :D) and in the original BG there's a tutorial area to teach you all about group combat so you can pick it up at your own speed without your character getting killed.


I always felt that NWN are mostly multiplayer games. As for the characters, as I already mentioned on the boards when NWN2 was discussed last time - I won't consider them great, myself. Grobnar and Sand are cool, Khelgar and Shandra are okay, but the rest? Elanee and Casavir are horribly generic and don't have any personality apart from their classes. Neeshka and Qara are Chaotic Stupid, though for different reasons (and Neeshka is True Neutral in theory). Bishop is a thug who completely lacks any style or redeeming values. I've never gone so far in the game to reach Ammon Jerro.

They do not have a shade of chance when compared to the party from such games as Planescape: Torment, Final Fantasy 7, Chrono Trigger, or the cooler people from Baldur's Gate 2.

[Dragor]

I really liked Shandra. Not only was she not afraid to take the mickey out of you constantly, she was an NPC from a seemingly generic quest who comes back to have some importance, instead of the typical "Do as you say, get the XP, you only have one thing to say if I ever talk to you again" NPC's. I liked that touch.

Am I the only one who liked Neeshka? :smalltongue:

[Tengu]

Am I the only one who liked Neeshka? :smalltongue:

Judging from what people write on various NWN2 forums, no. They probably think "zomg, grrl with horns, hawt!!1". I don't understand them. She's a cheap Annah knockoff. And I even like the archetype - Roguish Female. Just not her.

[Elliot Kane]

Neeshka is absolutely an Annah knock-off, but without the attitude that made Annah work. Dak'kon's Sister is quite interesting, though. And yeah, I did think of her like that :D With all the nods to PS:T, I kept waiting for a Grace cameo :D

I liked most of the characters, but the alignments on several of them were wildly off. Khelgar was definitely CN, not CG - doing whatever he wanted at the time without really thinking about anyone but himself, yet not malicious. Qara was CE - vicious little self centred witch who liked blowing people up. It's "The Fall-From-Grace dilemma" all over again. Grace was clearly LG, but that would be a tad awkward if the player decided to go evil, so she was made Neutral instead. Bishop was an ass. Did anyone ever use the Gnome Bard for anything apart from making stuff?

PS:T has easily the best characters ever in a CRPG. Every one of them is a work of art.

AS for BG2, I can't say I really liked most of the characters. They veered wildly between annoying (Anomen), annoying and whiny (Aerie) and annoying and creepy (Jaheira). Imoen was OK, though, except for the giant plot SNAFU. On the bright side, though, I just found a fan-created character called Sairelith (Or something like that :D) who completely rules. She's a Paladin with a great personality :)

[Tengu]

Neeshka is absolutely an Annah knock-off, but without the attitude that made Annah work. Dak'kon's Sister is quite interesting, though. And yeah, I did think of her like that :D With all the nods to PS:T, I kept waiting for a Grace cameo :D


Gah, I entirely forgot there was one more player character! Which only shows how interesting she was to me...



I liked most of the characters, but the alignments on several of them were wildly off. Khelgar was definitely CN, not CG - doing whatever he wanted at the time without really thinking about anyone but himself, yet not malicious. Qara was CE - vicious little self centred witch who liked blowing people up. It's "The Fall-From-Grace dilemma" all over again. Grace was clearly LG, but that would be a tad awkward if the player decided to go evil, so she was made Neutral instead. Bishop was an ass. Did anyone ever use the Gnome Bard for anything apart from making stuff?


Khelgar was actually NG, but I agree with what are you saying - most of the characters have strangely off alignments.
Grobnar had funny lines and his auras were decent.



AS for BG2, I can't say I really liked most of the characters. They veered wildly between annoying (Anomen), annoying and whiny (Aerie) and annoying and creepy (Jaheira). Imoen was OK, though, except for the giant plot SNAFU. On the bright side, though, I just found a fan-created character called Sairelith (Or something like that :D) who completely rules. She's a Paladin with a great personality :)

Cool characters in BG2, in no order:
Minsc
Yoshimo
Mazzy
Haer'Dalis
Jan Jansen (funny as heck)
Edwin (mostly because you, and other party members, can make fun of him)
Imoen
Keldorn
Sarevok (ToB - you can even make him good if you try long and hard enough)

The moral therefore is - play a divine caster, and your team will always be cool.

[Morty]

What really annoyed me in BG2 is that it was hard to create an evil party. There are only 3 evil characters in non-ToB game. Luckily, all of them are both cool as characters and preety powerful- Korgan is the best fighter, Edwin the best mage and Viconia is really good cleric. I ended up with halfling swashbuckler, the three mentioned above, Jaheira and Haer'Dalis. But if you want to have good party, you can have all 6 characters good and no neutrals. Plus, it's hard to keep reputation on low level.
BTW, what I really like about evil characters in BG is that they're realistic, instead of being murderous sociopaths evil characters in D&D tend to be.

[Elliot Kane]

Tengu...

I agree that Minsc is cool, but he's a carry-over from BG1. I'm not sure anyone playing a good or neutral party ever leaves him out though, because he's so funny :D

Yoshimo is OK, but he's not brilliant. I think the biggest problem with the characters in the BG games generally is that there are just too many of them, so their personalities, while often distinct, are rather shallow. I get no impression from most of them that they really have any back history or story of their own beyond waiting around until your character appears. Even Minsc has no real depth, but because he's amusing no-one cares.

[Tengu]

Well, if you want deep characters, play jRPGs. Or Planescape: Torment, which, I believe, has them mostly because it's inspider also by jRPGs. Needless to say, that's what makes the game so awesome: a masterful combination of the best aspects of both western and japanese RPGs.

[Dragonmuncher]

Edwin was not only amazingly entertaining, but he was the best wizard in the game (18 INT, plus that amulet that gave him extra spells).

Jan was also fun, even though he wasn't the most effective character.

Minsc is a must have, I mean, come on.

I always kept Imoen, for plot reasons.

Jaheria had her fighting abilities and her druid spells, plus she was snarky when she wasn't whining about her husband.

I usually made my PC a TWF Kensai. They're powerful stuff. Plus, you could use the special abilities of any weapon you have in your quick-weapon slot. So I'd have access to the abilities of my two swords, plus 4 backup swords. As good a self-buffer as any cleric, really, especially when you add in the Bhall abilities...


Sarevok awesome too, btw. And Aerie the Cleric/Wizard could just spam spells all day, so that was good.


... really, the only character I never had an interest in was Cernd.


Man, I need to reinstall that game...

[JellyPooga]

The biggest problem I always had with BG1&2, was that it was too focused on being Good and having a high reputation. There was no incentive to play Neutral, let alone Evil, because having a Good alignment meant that having a high Reputaion gave you better moral and having a high Reputaion also gave you a discount at (most, if not all) stores.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from being able to have Edwin in your party without him complaining about the high Reputation, there was nothing beneficial to being Evil...if anything, you were penalised for it because you had to deal with the bounty hunters and city guards that were constatly after you all the time.

For a while I thought that perhaps turning into the Slayer if you were Evil would be better than if you were Good (take less damage, less often or something)...but when I played through the game as an Evil character (with the inherent being bugged by bounty hunters and city guards all the frickin' time) to the point where you can become the Slayer, I discovered that it made no difference at all! Well wasn't that a waste of time?:smallannoyed:

[Tengu]

I personally don't really care, the only game where I enjoyed being evil was Dungeon Keeper.

[Om]

The biggest problem I always had with BG1&2, was that it was too focused on being Good and having a high reputation. There was no incentive to play Neutral, let alone Evil, because having a Good alignment meant that having a high Reputaion gave you better moral and having a high Reputaion also gave you a discount at (most, if not all) stores.Well yes and no. I agree that the reputation mechanic was somewhat clumsy but it did model the consequences of being evil with a reasonable degree of accuracy. If you slaughter a village then you've no real right to be surprised when guards get hostile towards you.

[SurlySeraph]

The biggest problem I always had with BG1&2, was that it was too focused on being Good and having a high reputation. There was no incentive to play Neutral, let alone Evil, because having a Good alignment meant that having a high Reputaion gave you better moral and having a high Reputaion also gave you a discount at (most, if not all) stores.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from being able to have Edwin in your party without him complaining about the high Reputation, there was nothing beneficial to being Evil...if anything, you were penalised for it because you had to deal with the bounty hunters and city guards that were constatly after you all the time.

For a while I thought that perhaps turning into the Slayer if you were Evil would be better than if you were Good (take less damage, less often or something)...but when I played through the game as an Evil character (with the inherent being bugged by bounty hunters and city guards all the frickin' time) to the point where you can become the Slayer, I discovered that it made no difference at all! Well wasn't that a waste of time?:smallannoyed:

Yeah, except for having the 3 strongest party members being evil had way too many penalties. There were a few "evil" solutions to quests that you could do (the one I remember was an alternate way of getting through the Trademeet quest; you poison the Druid grove). However, all of the evil ways a) were harder to do and b) had worse rewards than doing things the good way.

[JellyPooga]

Well yes and no. I agree that the reputation mechanic was somewhat clumsy but it did model the consequences of being evil with a reasonable degree of accuracy. If you slaughter a village then you've no real right to be surprised when guards get hostile towards you.

Yeah, I won't argue with that, it's just that whilst there were downsides to being evil, there was no upside to it to balance it out...you generally got less XP and less material rewards for quests completed 'evilly', there weren't any 'evil-only' or 'better-if-you're-evil' shops (IIRC), the few evil-only items (of which AFAIK there was only 1 or 2) weren't all that good (certaily not good enough to warrant being evil just because of them), very few 'evil-quests' (where there were more than just a couple of 'good-quests')...in short, there was no incentive to be Evil unless you actually liked having to have an easy-to-moderate difficulty fight every time you went to a new area in Athkatla.

On the other hand, there was every incentive to be Good...there were plenty of benefits to high reputation and completing quests "good-ly" and there was no downside apart from not being able to recruit Evil NPC's effectively (because they suffered from low morale).

[Elliot Kane]

Well, if you want deep characters, play jRPGs. Or Planescape: Torment, which, I believe, has them mostly because it's inspider also by jRPGs. Needless to say, that's what makes the game so awesome: a masterful combination of the best aspects of both western and japanese RPGs.

PS:T reminds me of a proper tabletop RPG in terms of the character depth, which is what all CRPGs should be aiming at, IMO. I didn't see any jRPG influence then, and I don't now. Not least because you have actual choices that genuinely affect the game in PS:T and no sign of railroad tracks.

I usually think of jRPGs more as films you are directing than RPGs as such. The characters are usually wonderful, but the games are incredibly linear, incredibly restrictive and involve no meaningful choices on the part of the player.

Not that that makes them bad games, I hasten to add. All the ones I've played (Not that many, but a few) have been highly enjoyable, and I love seeing how the characters develop and the story plays out. But I do not personally consider them RPGs at all, as they are lacking the one true requirement for any RPG: player defined characterisation.

For example, I think FF12 has the best actual system I've ever seen in terms of game play for a CRPG. It just doesn't have any actual RP part to it.

[Tengu]

It does not bother me. I prefer great story and lack of freedom to lots of freedom and lack of story (compare Final Fantasy 6 to Oblivion). If I want freedom, I play online or a four-X strategy game.

[Elliot Kane]

It does not bother me. I prefer great story and lack of freedom to lots of freedom and lack of story

I definitely agree. Stuff like Oblivion holds zero interest for me (And from what I gather, that's not an RPG, either).

I'd rather play one of my FF games for the Nth time any day.