New to the Traveller system

[exoucia1]

Greetings.

I'm exoucia1 and this is a hello combo series of questions because I couldn't find where to put the questions so a "hello" with inquiries seemed like this would be at least a good start. My wife and I used to play D&D (before we met each other, long ago in the dayglow color days of parachute pants when food came from cans, Chess King and all that was the 80s). She's played other systems. I was "elected" to be the DM/GM/referee. I've never been in that 'office' so I've got some questions.

We purchased Traveller for the family to play. I'm the GM but honestly I'm somewhat lost. Neither my wife or I have gamed in quite some time. My personal experience was with D&D; brief and so far back I can't recall gameplay, gameflow, much of anything other than it was the 80s. We purchased a starter kit for D&D and no problems. Really fun for us and the kiddos. Traveller is another story...

Any help learning this system specific to rolling for actions, tasks, combat and basically every action in game would be appreciated.

Also, I've come across mentions of a 'mini-game' (pre-game?) related to character creation and their backgrounds and careers; any assistance with that what that is, how to 'play' it along with any other help for it would also be greatly appreciated.

We purchased a core rule book and the 'Gateway!' adventure module. It was great fun. We incorpated some D&D d20 elements primarily because the 'how to' of Traveller isn't as descriptive not to mention neither she or I have ever played it.

Sci-fi tabletop rpg gaming with Traveller has got us interested in other systems but we'd like to get Traveller to where we're not so 'lost', more an intermediate level player/GM, before venturing into other sci-fi systems.

Regards,
exoucia1

[golentan]

Greetings.

I'm exoucia1 and this is a hello combo series of questions because I couldn't find where to put the questions so a "hello" with inquiries seemed like this would be at least a good start. My wife and I used to play D&D (before we met each other, long ago in the dayglow color days of parachute pants when food came from cans, Chess King and all that was the 80s). She's played other systems. I was "elected" to be the DM/GM/referee. I've never been in that 'office' so I've got some questions.

We purchased Traveller for the family to play. I'm the GM but honestly I'm somewhat lost. Neither my wife or I have gamed in quite some time. My personal experience was with D&D; brief and so far back I can't recall gameplay, gameflow, much of anything other than it was the 80s. We purchased a starter kit for D&D and no problems. Really fun for us and the kiddos. Traveller is another story...

Any help learning this system specific to rolling for actions, tasks, combat and basically every action in game would be appreciated.

Also, I've come across mentions of a 'mini-game' (pre-game?) related to character creation and their backgrounds and careers; any assistance with that what that is, how to 'play' it along with any other help for it would also be greatly appreciated.

We purchased a core rule book and the 'Gateway!' adventure module. It was great fun. We incorpated some D&D d20 elements primarily because the 'how to' of Traveller isn't as descriptive not to mention neither she or I have ever played it.

Sci-fi tabletop rpg gaming with Traveller has got us interested in other systems but we'd like to get Traveller to where we're not so 'lost', more an intermediate level player/GM, before venturing into other sci-fi systems.

Regards,
exoucia1

Heya, Exoucia1. First off, in the future traveller goes in the Older D&D/AD&D and Other Systems tab of the roleplaying forum, but I'm sure a mod will be along soon to move it.

Second... Guessing you picked up Mongoose Edition, but can you check the publisher/edition before I give you a lot of bad info?

I will say, the typical roll in Mongoose is 2d6 + Skill + Ability - Difficulty, beat eight. Your job as referee, besides populating the world with NPCs, creatures, and starships, is pretty much to adjudicate the difficulty of rolls where there isn't a set difficulty.

As for character generation, typically after rolling abilities and picking your homeworld... What follows is a series of tables, applying to different careers (in some cases, colleges), seeing what happens to you (struck it rich, bad boss set out to drum you out of the service, Chamax gnawed your arms off, whatever), with the decision every four years of whether you want to keep going and pick up more skills and wealth, or enter play as a new character.

Generally, the adventure hook for any game of traveller is your spaceship. Because generally, the players are lucky to own 10% of it, which forces players to find a way to come up with a lifetime's worth of wealth every year to make the payments, or turn pirate/rogue to duck bounty hunters sent to repossess it. Or turn pirate/rogue to make the payments. Or, they don't own it at all, and the cost of travelling with the party is that the navy/a mercenary company/some business demands their loyalty and service.

Think Firefly, which I swear might have started as Joss Whedon's traveller campaign: Find a Job, Find a Crew, Keep Flying. Adventures are usually provided by either patrons (who might be on the up and up, like a scientist hoping to travel to another world to collect some plants for samples, or might be an unabashed crook willing to pay for discretion) or Circumstance (while flying in a remote system, you find a derelict which might contain salvage or might be a pirate trap, or a Psychic stows away on their ship hoping to flee towards the Zhodani Border).

[Florian]

@Mini Game:

Assuming the use of the Mongoose Publishing edition of Traveler, read the character creation section carefully.

Character creation should be done together. After each character rolled basic stats and picked a homeward, proceed to the career section. When rolling on the "events" table, players are encouraged to build some connection between the event and an other character, which will generate a boon. (Example: You rescued someone and .... at that point you will work out something with another player)

So basically, have each player take one step during character creation and then switch to the next player. Finish this phase by distributing the "campaign skill package" found at the end of character creation section.

@Mechanics:

Very simple: 2d6 + Attribute + Skill +/- Difficulty +/- Time Modifier over 8. The Time Modifier is important here, making hard tasks possible, even while skills are low in the beginning.

[factotum]

I only ever played one game of Traveller, and because of the way the random character generation works I ended up with a character in his 60s who was so stupidly rich that the DM basically said I could only have access to 1/10th of my wealth in order to keep balance with the rest of the party. Not sure which edition of the game that was, it was 30-odd years ago...

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, Traveller character creation is a bit wonky, especially because the careers aren't exactly balanced in the cash and benefits tables.

First off, the edition would be useful. I own Mongoose Traveller 1e, which I like, and is close enough to 2e I can advise in everything but starship design.

For character creation, in 1e it went as follows:
1) Roll and assign Attributes.
2) Pick education skills equal to 3+EDU mod. Two of these come from your homeworld type. These are all level 0 (no -3 untrained penalty).
3) Pick your starting career, roll to qualify. If you don't qualify either apply for the draft or enter the Drifter career. Grab your basic training as level 0 skills.
3a) Roll for survival, if you fail roll for a mishap and you're normally ejected from the career.
3b) If still around roll for your event and apply effects.
3c) Roll (or choose) your skill or Attribute point from one of the tables. Skills here begin at 1 instead of zero.
3d) Roll for advancement and applying effects. If you roll equal to or less than your terms in the career you're ejected from the career.
3e) If this is your fourth term or later roll for aging.
4f) If you're leaving the career roll for benefits.
3g) Repeat, entering a new career if you were ejected from your old one, until you're satisfied or your GM starts giving your funny looks.
4) Spend money, pick skills from the skill package, and work out other details.

It's pretty simple when you've worked it out, but you could end up with an ex-Admiral in a ship with a Drifter who never managed to enter a career, it's the risks of rolling. I recommend letting people pick their skills but still rolling for survival, events, and advancement, it gives players more control.

Rules are simple, 2d6+ability mod+skill total+modifiers (inc. difficulty), try to beat 8. Task chains are just 'the outcome of this roll applies a bonus or penalty to the next roll'. Combat is basically the same as most systems, roll initiative and take actions, but you can spend points from your initiative to react (such as dodge or parry).

The most complicated not character creation aspect is starships, which I've complicated even more than normal for my setting (including requiring interface vehicles and making ships decide between high accelerations or long accelerations), and that's partially because a clever group could wind up launching several missiles/drones a turn. All actions are still 2d6+ability mod+skill+modifiers, but there's a bit more complexity based on 'you're in a vaguely (or significantly) aerodynamic bucket flying through a vacuum'. Remember that most PC ships will likely accelerate at 1g and have a Jump-1 engine (in most games, I use 2300AD reaction engine and sutterwarp rules which makes everything more complicated).

[golentan]

Yeah, Traveller character creation is a bit wonky, especially because the careers aren't exactly balanced in the cash and benefits tables.


As I saw it, it's not supposed to be balanced. The point of skill packages or other selection systems is to make sure everyone on board has a role in the crew (pilot, engineer, security, financing) and beyond that... the balance point is "Everyone dies if caught in a hail of gunfire" and "Skill is relevant even at 0 and can fail at difficult rolls even when maxed out at 6."

Generally the career options which pay off big in terms of cash and benefits have a weaker skill table, but there are some careers which are inarguably great to pursue in general, like the Scout Service (Access to Jack of All Trades, a ship that the bank can never repossess even if it's not great for getting rich trading, passenger runs, fighting, or whatever else).

[Anonymouswizard]

As I saw it, it's not supposed to be balanced. The point of skill packages or other selection systems is to make sure everyone on board has a role in the crew (pilot, engineer, security, financing) and beyond that... the balance point is "Everyone dies if caught in a hail of gunfire" and "Skill is relevant even at 0 and can fail at difficult rolls even when maxed out at 6."

Generally the career options which pay off big in terms of cash and benefits have a weaker skill table, but there are some careers which are inarguably great to pursue in general, like the Scout Service (Access to Jack of All Trades, a ship that the bank can never repossess even if it's not great for getting rich trading, passenger runs, fighting, or whatever else).

Yeah, the Scout's downside is the lack of a pension, otherwise it's an awesome career. Oh, and the fact you can RAW be recalled into the Scout Service at any point.

I'm also not saying it being unbalanced is inherently bad. It's actually less horrific than D&D3.5, and it is generally balanced when kept to six terms or less. I actually think that potentially the worst bit is the core FTL, the Jump Drive just doesn't represent most fictional drives due to the preset destination and week long wait in jump space. I get it's part of the system now, but I think most players would be happier with a hyperdrive. Heck, I consider lethality a plus, but character creation not really being balanced is something best known before you begin.

[FreddyNoNose]

As I saw it, it's not supposed to be balanced. The point of skill packages or other selection systems is to make sure everyone on board has a role in the crew (pilot, engineer, security, financing) and beyond that... the balance point is "Everyone dies if caught in a hail of gunfire" and "Skill is relevant even at 0 and can fail at difficult rolls even when maxed out at 6."

Generally the career options which pay off big in terms of cash and benefits have a weaker skill table, but there are some careers which are inarguably great to pursue in general, like the Scout Service (Access to Jack of All Trades, a ship that the bank can never repossess even if it's not great for getting rich trading, passenger runs, fighting, or whatever else).

People are going to cry about balance this and balance that. It becomes annoying at some point.

[Anonymouswizard]

People are going to cry about balance this and balance that. It becomes annoying at some point.

Mentioning that the balance is a bit off is not the same as crying about it. There's a difference between being aware of imbalance and not being aware of imbalance, and it's not actually a problem if people are aware of it and fine.

So shut the **** up and keep out of discussions about balance. Ignore every post that mentions it if you want. If you bothered to read my reply I stated that it was more a 'be aware that' than a 'this is bad because'. So you don't care about balance, some people do, and so please stay out of discussions instead of complaining about people discussing it. It's the polite way to do it, share your opinion but don't insult others.

Being told 'people are going to cry about balance this and balance that' is annoying in and of itself. You could have said something that DIDN'T insult people who care about balance, instead you decided to say that our discussions, which you have no reason to be a part of because you don't care, is annoying. Well you know what's annoying?

I click on a thread because I recently read a post that actually raised good points and made me realise that my initial post might have been a bit poorly worded, and instead find someone complaining that people care about balance. Someone who isn't even adding to the topic of discussion, which the post you quoted (and it was a good post) did. I feel good to replying to a post saying 'the balance is a bit wonky because it doesn't really matter', I feel bad about replying to a post of 'wa wa people discussing balance it annoying wa wa'. Or are we not implying that other posters are crying about stuff now?

What's next, Star Wars being a good example of what Traveller is despite the technology being completely different?

So can we please try to be mature about it? I understand that I'm not the most mature poster on this forum, but I try and stay out of discussions that'll lead to me insulting other posters.

[golentan]

Yeah, the Scout's downside is the lack of a pension, otherwise it's an awesome career. Oh, and the fact you can RAW be recalled into the Scout Service at any point.

I'm also not saying it being unbalanced is inherently bad. It's actually less horrific than D&D3.5, and it is generally balanced when kept to six terms or less. I actually think that potentially the worst bit is the core FTL, the Jump Drive just doesn't represent most fictional drives due to the preset destination and week long wait in jump space. I get it's part of the system now, but I think most players would be happier with a hyperdrive. Heck, I consider lethality a plus, but character creation not really being balanced is something best known before you begin.

Oh for sure on the balance questions. I disagree with the FTL thing, though, since I feel like it establishes an Age of Sail aesthetic where any information must take months to cross the Empire, and thus justifies the use of vassals and neo-feudalism to govern the far flung sectors of known space. Plus it forces people to arrive distant to their destination (at least several hours flight), and depart the same way, allowing for the possibility of piracy or daring blockade runs, and the fuel costs force a decision for warships over whether they prefer long legs or heavy arms.

But IMTU is a thing for a reason, so if you prefer a hyperdrive, go for it. I think there are rules in some of the books which cover alternate FTL?

[Anonymouswizard]

Oh for sure on the balance questions. I disagree with the FTL thing, though, since I feel like it establishes an Age of Sail aesthetic where any information must take months to cross the Empire, and thus justifies the use of vassals and neo-feudalism to govern the far flung sectors of known space. Plus it forces people to arrive distant to their destination (at least several hours flight), and depart the same way, allowing for the possibility of piracy or daring blockade runs, and the fuel costs force a decision for warships over whether they prefer long legs or heavy arms.

But IMTU is a thing for a reason, so if you prefer a hyperdrive, go for it. I think there are rules in some of the books which cover alternate FTL?

I mean, I like the lack of FTL communication beyond a fast ship, it's just the FTL used is very specific and one that isn't really used in fiction. In this case the actual FTL system used doesn't matter, as long as information takes enough time to make centralised rule difficult.

And yeah, IMTU the Jump Drive isn't used. I'm currently planning on a Stutterwarp using the 2300AD speeds, but with jumps of up to one megametre instead of a few hundred metres. (I estimate that it'll still take tens to hundreds of thousands of jumps per day to hit one ly/day). It was more a 'this might make it a bit more difficult for people to get into' comment.

Anyway, I'm off to locate some sleep, I can't plan my Traveller Universe like this. To all those who want to use Jump Drives I say cool, but I'll personally pass, see you when I catch up!

[factotum]

Plus it forces people to arrive distant to their destination (at least several hours flight), and depart the same way, allowing for the possibility of piracy or daring blockade runs

Hyperdrive would allow the same thing, if it worked the way it does in Larry Niven's universe--e.g. hyperdrive simply doesn't work if you're too close to a massive object like a star. It wouldn't fix the week-long jump issues considering its maximum (and indeed only practical) speed is about 120c, though...

[Anonymouswizard]

Hyperdrive would allow the same thing, if it worked the way it does in Larry Niven's universe--e.g. hyperdrive simply doesn't work if you're too close to a massive object like a star. It wouldn't fix the week-long jump issues considering its maximum (and indeed only practical) speed is about 120c, though...

At least for me the annoying isn't the week long jump as such, it's that the 'jump drive with a week long wait in hyperspace' doesn't seem to be a thing in the science fiction I read. It's why I like how MgT1e gives rules for different types of drive in the corebook which are treated as being alternative technology instead of higher tech alternatives, and the variance shows that the system doesn't really care how you do it, except for hyperspace potentially allowing FTL battles.

Heck, I'm going to be keeping the 100 diameter limit whatever I do, even if I go for a 2e style hyperdrive (about 24 times as fast as a 1e one, so reaction engine fuel is less of a concern, and I'm mainly using 2300AD plasma drives).

[golentan]

At least for me the annoying isn't the week long jump as such, it's that the 'jump drive with a week long wait in hyperspace' doesn't seem to be a thing in the science fiction I read. It's why I like how MgT1e gives rules for different types of drive in the corebook which are treated as being alternative technology instead of higher tech alternatives, and the variance shows that the system doesn't really care how you do it, except for hyperspace potentially allowing FTL battles.

Heck, I'm going to be keeping the 100 diameter limit whatever I do, even if I go for a 2e style hyperdrive (about 24 times as fast as a 1e one, so reaction engine fuel is less of a concern, and I'm mainly using 2300AD plasma drives).

That may be the difference between us? I grew up reading a lot of sci-fi with lengthy stretches of boredom between planets, and always liked the element of "Welp, we escaped the pirates, and hopefully can duck them on the other side. In the meantime... We have a week to make repairs, play poker, and play pranks. And maybe we find out about a weird creature/stowaway in the cargo bay in a bit.."

[Anonymouswizard]

That may be the difference between us? I grew up reading a lot of sci-fi with lengthy stretches of boredom between planets, and always liked the element of "Welp, we escaped the pirates, and hopefully can duck them on the other side. In the meantime... We have a week to make repairs, play poker, and play pranks. And maybe we find out about a weird creature/stowaway in the cargo bay in a bit.."

As I said, it's not really that I have a problem with, it's more the 'jumps always take a week'. Maybe it's the science fiction I grew up with, where moving to a further away target required longer in the 'spend 2 weeks in hyperspace to get to Alpha Centuri but 8 to get to Wolf ###' style. It's not the wait itself, it's the weird way it manifests. I'd rather have a ship have to jump several times to get to an inhabited system, having to wait between jumps, rather than jumping and spending a week playing cards.

But as you said, IMTU is a thing, I'm happy that Mongoose is publishing alternative FTL drives. I can have my ly/hour drives at the same time you have your 'week to go a parsec' drives, everyone wins (bar Jeff, he wanted lighthuggers).

[1337 b4k4]

As other's mentioned, you don't specify which version you have, but if you bought from an FLGS you likely have Mongoose either 1e or 2e. There are lots of different Traveller versions, and they all have varying degrees of compatibility with each other. There were even GURPS and d20 versions produced (though out of print now). I got hooked some years back when I first read Greywulf's Traveller Week posts (http://greywulf.net/2010/12/13/traveller-rpg-week-day-one-what-is-traveller/) which I think do a pretty good job of introducing the concepts behind the system. He's series focuses on Classic Traveller, but a lot of the core concepts would carry over to MgT (that's the common abbreviation for Mongoose Traveller). If you haven't come across it already, the Citizens of the Imperium forums (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/) are AFAIK the main discussion nexus for Traveller in all its versions. Lots of information to be had there.

If SF and the sort of space opera that Traveller is good at is what you're interested in, but you prefer d20/D&D-ish mechanics, you might consider checking out Stars Without Number (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/86467/Stars-Without-Number-Free-Edition) instead. In fact, you may want to check it out anyway just for the GM tools and tables.

[Blue Duke]

if its mongoose something my group has done is we roll for two events per term - because 'one event in a four year stretch' is boreing and two leads to a lot more fun (though it can get weird - i have a character in my files that was promoted three times in one term)

[Anonymouswizard]

if its mongoose something my group has done is we roll for two events per term - because 'one event in a four year stretch' is boreing and two leads to a lot more fun (though it can get weird - i have a character in my files that was promoted three times in one term)

That's interesting, I'm not going to use it in my next game as it expects characters to go through 20+ terms and come out with a ton of background events, cashing in their pensions in order to nab an age reduction. The universe is based off the Commonwealth Saga and uses the same idea of 'work into your fifties or sixties and then reverse to your late teens/early twenties', and so character creation is going to last a long time and hopefully end up with PCs in a position of power (with ideally one or more of them outright owning a ship).

However for a game with the standard rules it makes a lot of sense and will lead to slightly more powerful characters (which is never a horrible thing).

[Blue Duke]

That's interesting, I'm not going to use it in my next game as it expects characters to go through 20+ terms and come out with a ton of background events, cashing in their pensions in order to nab an age reduction. The universe is based off the Commonwealth Saga and uses the same idea of 'work into your fifties or sixties and then reverse to your late teens/early twenties', and so character creation is going to last a long time and hopefully end up with PCs in a position of power (with ideally one or more of them outright owning a ship).

However for a game with the standard rules it makes a lot of sense and will lead to slightly more powerful characters (which is never a horrible thing).

yea Usually we are limted to 4-6 terms and the characters come up either a lot more fun....or horribly crippled.

[lightningcat]

I have never actually got to play Traveller. But I did get to make a character, and while he was nothing like what I wanted to make, I still remember him almost 20 years later.

He failed to get into Scouts.
He failed to get into Navy.
He succeeded getting into the Marines.
He did 15 years as enlisted, then went officer for the last 5 years.
His last terms had him working as a SpecOps and then going on to work as a General's Aide.
Retired as a Captain, with 1/4 of a ship, lifetime TAS member, and some money.

For roleplaying purposes I decided he had a serious disdain for Navy and Scouts, obviously out of jealousy. I really want to play him...

[exoucia1]

Thanks for all the advice/help and even the bantor with a bit of sailor talk to boot.

We created our characters after scouring the web of inter on this 'mini-game' reference I'd stumbled upon but after reading the replies here we didn't do that exactly as described here.

Regarding FTL, I had no idea of long amounts of time in between point A to B.

I'm gathering we're not gaming much less am I GMing correctly simply because we have (really) close to zero past experience, which is cool. Learning something basically totally new in and of itself is rewarding. It's a great respite from the pace things have evolved into these days.

The vendor we purchased from here (Pegasus Loft) has been kind enough to actually demo for us and teach me (at 48) the 'what in the heck' of our child's 'Munchkin' game (a birthday gift), another board/card horror game set in an old mansion (Betrayal...) and of course Traveller. Still, it'd be nice if there were lessons...yeah lessons.

The Traveller core rulebook is a (c) 2008 Mongoose Publication.

My wife and I just inserted our own ideas to get the gameflow going after spending hours and a couple of days preparing, collaborating, and comparing (our son's 10). Since my first entry here, I made a large hex-square map and found plenty of information online. Just can't wrap my mind around it all yet, but The info here is clearing up my utter lack 'cause I'm outta the loop, lol, and that's totally cool. New is nice. The help and ideas here (truly old school jumps with a wait instead of 'k'poof' the ship pops out of jump space for example) already has my mind using random event tables to our gaming.

I need to see it though, played (that's how I learn and remember everthing). While looking up info on Traveller I came across two different ways to for lack of a better term tele-play with others. Like Skype play??

Where we live it's 'small minded'. There are two shops here none the less that sell rpg games and a bookstore in our local mall. But the tone here has folks not making it easy to find fellow players because this IS the part of the buckle of the certain belt that goes into the holes in that certain belt. (I think I hear a mob gathering outside with torches demanding I hand Dr. Frankenstein over just for posting this- the hills have eyes- but later we'll all share a pint and Mrs. Glokenheimer's shnitzle...mmm...in between Aqua Velva and Life cereal ads...ah...pudding of fig)

Seriously, I need lessons. There needs to be "Lessons for Parents" or GMing 101 with step by step how to sh'tuff. I'd pay tuition in crisps. It's a mix of loads of fun and nostalgia that's grown into a new hobby. A lot better than 32 years in the music industry too. : )
I'm a newb, again. Yay. I feel 17...my yoof'tz is renewed.

Back to Traveller research.

Regards,
C

[Anonymouswizard]

2008 means it's 1e. That's better in some ways, 1e is more complete than 2e is, but means some of the rules are split among multiple books (ships design is in both the core rulebook and High Guard).

Character creation isn't well explained, especially the order you do everything in a term (I believe it's supposed to be 'skill-survival-event-advancement', although it doesn't really matter as long as you remember you always get to roll for a skill). It really doesn't matter if you get it 100% correct though, I've been considering running a version where failed survival rolls don't get you thrown out to try and get a 'high level navy officers' game off the ground (using the detailed Navy careers in High Guard).

With regards to FTL, the game doesn't break if Jump Drives don't take a week, but it does have setting effects. 2300AD is an official MgT setting where ships tend to move at 1ly/day (J-1 is ~0.5ly/day) and where ships smaller than 100dtons can mount FTL drives. It leads to a very different style of setting, especially as the Stutterwarp is easier to follow (as you're sort of moving in realspace), but the GAME doesn't break. If you want something closer to Star Trek style FTL just use the corebook Warp Drive rules rather than Jump Drives, it's the same rough speed but the fuel requirements are greatly reduced. I recommend keeping the 100 diameter limit if using M-drives though (Traveller has rules for comparatively fuel inefficient reaction drives). The need to arrive far away keeps the standard tactics in play.

The thing with lessons is that GMing is something that is hard to teach, but relatively easy to learn in practice. Just remember, everyone started out rubbish.

[Hopeless]

1e also means Little Black Books variant which should be cheaper to pick unless you go for pdfs?

[Anonymouswizard]

1e also means Little Black Books variant which should be cheaper to pick unless you go for pdfs?

Mongoose 1e, not classic Traveller. There's a slight different, the Mongoose LBBs (which are additional rules rather than core rules) are still cheaper in pdf.