Bladesinger build, which way to go?

[Halabalousa]

So Im going to participate in a new campaign soon and the Bladesinger has intrigued me for a while. We rolled for attribute stats and this is what I have to work with:

17, 17, 16, 12, 10, 8

With stats like that I can get two attributes at 18 (3 if one of them is charisma by picking half-elf). We will probably start the campaing in level 1 or 2 and it is expected to run untill level 15-16ish.

The GM has made a few tweaks and of those the following has implications for a possible bladesinger build:

-If you dont pick variant human you get to start with one of the usually lesser used feats (including racial feats), one of which is Dual Wielder. If the feat includes an attribute increase you dont get that part of the feat.
-You DO get to make an off hand attack as a bonus action after casting Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade as you action.

So with that in mind I think it might be time to try to build a dual wielding blade singer :smallsmile: The campaign isnt about min/maxing at all but I do like to build a character that is both fun to play and somewhat optimized. I dont think the GM will have any problems with me picking a non elf race for the bladesinger if thats what I desire.

I have thought about 3 kind of builds (having dex and int at 18 is obviously not a problem with my rolls and I can have at least 16 con as well, strenght will be the dump stat and wisdom probably wont get any love either):

1. Fighter 1, 2 or 3 + Bladesinger X
Starting at fighter for 1 level for the extra HPs (wizards are squishy, getting second wind is decent as well), con saving throw and fighting style (Two-Weapon Fighting). Then going Bladesinger and if I at some point feel like it dip back into fighter for a 2nd level getting action surge or 3rd level getting martial archetype (Battlemaster). Warcaster is a must ASAP and then probably +2 and and +2 int for the next two ASI although Mobile seems really fun when using Booming Blade just leaving an enemy stranded or taking extra damage if he wants to move! Using Haste you can still get full value for the extra attack at Bladesinger level 6 while still using Booming Blade / Green-Flame Blade. You could also just make the build Fighter X + Bladesinger 2 but thats doesnt really intrigue me.

Arcane Trickster X + Bladesinger X
Trickster and Bladesinger should (on paper at least) synergize as they both are int based. Starting in rogue seems like the way to go getting extra HPs, expertise and 1d6 sneak attack damage. Swapping saving throw proficiency in wis for dex is okay too I guess. Then going bladesinger untill first ASI and then what? I really dont know how the best level distrubution is in this build. Uncanny dodge at level 5 +3d6 SA and Evasion + 4d6 SA at level 7 are really nice. Just going Bladesinger 2 is an option as Trickster counts for 1/3 caster. Also I kinda feel like I want/need that 1 level fighter dib for Two-Weapon Fighting if I dual wield. ASI/feats are the same as above.

Swashbuckler X + Bladesinger X
Again going rogue for the first level and then 2 level Blademaster. After that either 2 more levels into Bladesinger for the ASI (getting warcaster) or back into rogue for a couple of levels to get Fancy Footwork (which is REALLY nice with Booming Blade) and Rakish Audacity. Again I dont really know what a good level distibution here either. Chosing less Blademaster levels limits the magic in this build more than in the trickster one. Swashbuckler is charisma based but cha doesnt seem TOO important (+ cha mod to initiative and Panache if going Swashbuckler to 9+) so I feel like I can get by with a moderate cha. Chosing half-elf I can get dex 18, int 18, con 16 and cha 14. I can get dex 18, int 18 and cha 18 but that will leave me with con 12 which Im not that happy about. Warcaster and +2 dex is again a must but after that ASI seems open (Mobile isnt needed because of Rakish Audacity). Fighter 1 dip for Two-Weapon Fighting though?

All advice is greatly appreciated! :smallcool:

PS. The build doesnt have to be dual wielding but it would be nice to try a dual wielding character now that the GM has made it a more accesible and stronger option.

[Galactkaktus]

So Im going to participate in a new campaign soon and the Bladesinger has intrigued me for a while. We rolled for attribute stats and this is what I have to work with:

17, 17, 16, 12, 10, 8



Hmm i wonder if it's possible to go paladin 2 bladesinger x with those stats
17+1 int
17+1 dex
16 con
12 str
10+2 Cha
8 Wis

At level 4
+1 cha
+1 str
For paladin multiclass and just dual wield for more smites per turn take the paladin levels after getting extra attack from bladesinger at level 6 maybe?

[Desteplo]

You can't duel wield while using booming blade because you are casting a cantrip. You aren't taking the attack action.
-you can duel wield while the bladesong goes however. you'll then be using the attack action.

[Sans.]

You've covered the main good MCs. Fighter 1 is almost amazing, what with TWF and Con saves. Fighter 2 is good but you lose a ASI/feat which is important on a MAD class like Bladesinger. Fighter 3 is interesting with Battle Master (Eldritch Knight just loses a few free spells). Arcane Trickster is a meh dip on Bladesinger; it works much better the other way round. Swashbuckler is beautiful. Paladin... meh. You need literally every stat to be good, Str for MCing, Dex for combat, Con for not dying, Int for spells, Wis for not failing at life and Cha for MCing. MCing in general, you don't want to slow wizard progression too much, so take the dip at first and maybe take the second after 5 wizard levels, at 7. Keep in mind that your 3rd non-wizard level sacrifices Spell Mastery, aka Shield and Misty Step free spams.

As for feats, Warcaster is a must, and Mobile is almost as good but can be delayed. Dual Wielder... compare what it gives you to a +2 to Dex or a +2 to Int. No, literally. Do it. Races... well, unless your DM rules you can be a non-elven Bladesinger, you'll be choosing between High Elf or Eladrin. If not, Variant Human is amazing on this ASI starved build, and then comes anything that makes the stats line up.

[PeteNutButter]

You can't duel wield while using booming blade because you are casting a cantrip. You aren't taking the attack action.
-you can duel wield while the bladesong goes however. you'll then be using the attack action.

He said his DM changed these rules.

...

With those stats you could do lots of cool stuff, like the paladin mentioned, or barbarian (Ragesinger?).

Honest though, just starting fighter 1 is good, but I'd not take DW, at least not yet. More dex is just better that DW. Start with Elven Accuracy and have a 20 dex. It might not seem super strong at first, but as you go up in levels there are plenty of ways to gain advantage, and turning it into super advantage is even stronger. With Mage Armor your AC will be 22 at level 3 when you do your bladesong.

TWF with bladesinger suffers from the tax of also needing warcaster if you plan to cast shield, which you should.

I would say that with the cantrip + offhand attack allowed, it lends itself best to a build that wouldn't get extra attack. Such as mostly rogue with just two levels in bladesinger.

[bid]

17, 17, 16, 12, 10, 8
-If you dont pick variant human you get to start with one of the usually lesser used feats (including racial feats), one of which is Dual Wielder. If the feat includes an attribute increase you dont get that part of the feat.
-You DO get to make an off hand attack as a bonus action after casting Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade as you action.

So with that in mind I think it might be time to try to build a dual wielding blade singer :smallsmile: The campaign isnt about min/maxing at all but I do like to build a character that is both fun to play and somewhat optimized. I dont think the GM will have any problems with me picking a non elf race for the bladesinger if thats what I desire.
High elf 8 18 17 18 12 10
Half-elf 8 18 16 18 10 14


I don't know which feats are "lesser used", I guessed.
Tough puts you at fighter hp level, but 7hp per level is already good since you shouldn't get hit. Skulker might work.
Skill feats are good to get expertise, perceptive is almost too good, historian and investigator are nice.
Wood elf magic is the only good elf feat IMO.

DW is only good to get a whip offhand.
Warcaster is not needed: you can sheath your offhand for free, no enemy should offer you OA, you can blur/dance and never roll concentration.
With those stats you are not starved for ASI. Which is good since you'll never reach 16, 3 ASI is all you get after your free feat.


Fighter: take defense style for AC18, an extra 5 damage won't be much at higher levels. Wait until fireball before action surge.

Rogue: just getting disengage from CA is a life saver. Starting rogue adds an extra skill too, but save should shore upwith crappy Wis. Uncanny dodge can reduces the concentration DC.
AT 9 / BS 6: magical ambush is deep but your spells will succeed more often... after the end of the campaign. You are basically getting legerdemain and an extra caster level otherwise.
Swash 5 / BS 10: If you miss your main attack (BB/GFB), you'll get a second chance at SA with fancy footwork.
I'm not sure pushing beyond rogue 3 is necessary, better spells offer more.

[bid]

Start with Elven Accuracy and have a 20 dex.
No stat bonus on the free feat. It'd still be strong for a mostly-rogue build.

[Gtdead]

I use 2 builds for BS. One is the mobility booming blade that uses all that speed with the disengage effect from mobility to basically engage from pretty far and still have enough movement left to position himself.

The other is a high level archer build, BS 18/Fighter 2. Sharpshooter and wish for simulacrum to create a character that attacks 4 times per turn while being able to either fly, haste or turn invisible for advantage, alongside other wizard perks like bladesong, spellmastery shield and Misty step, his impressive spell list extended since now there are 2 of you.

[Halabalousa]

Fighter 1 is almost amazing, what with TWF and Con saves.

I agree, I kinda feel like I need/want a 1 level fighter dip no matter which direction I go?


Arcane Trickster is a meh dip on Bladesinger; it works much better the other way round.

Yeah seems like Trickster X Bladesinger 2 is the way to go here. No dual wielding as well because you want to use the bonus action on disengage.


Swashbuckler is beautiful. MCing in general, you don't want to slow wizard progression too much, so take the dip at first and maybe take the second after 5 wizard levels, at 7. Keep in mind that your 3rd non-wizard level sacrifices Spell Mastery, aka Shield and Misty Step free spams.

We are probably not going to level 18+, GM said something like 15-16ish but it isnt fixed. Swashbuckler 3 would be a must and I like fighter 1 as well for the Two-Weapon Fighting and con save but maybe you can do without the + dex mod for the off hand attack?


As for feats, Warcaster is a must, and Mobile is almost as good but can be delayed.

In the Fighter/Bladesinger build I would really like getting Mobile. In the rogue build it has no real value.


Races... well, unless your DM rules you can be a non-elven Bladesinger, you'll be choosing between High Elf or Eladrin.

At the very least I can go half-elf.

[Halabalousa]

I would say that with the cantrip + offhand attack allowed, it lends itself best to a build that wouldn't get extra attack. Such as mostly rogue with just two levels in bladesinger.

Well you can get full value of the extra attack and cantrip by using haste though, but I see your point. Swashbuckler X Fighter 1 Bladesinger 2 perhaps...

[PeteNutButter]

Well you can get full value of the extra attack and cantrip by using haste though, but I see your point. Swashbuckler X Fighter 1 Bladesinger 2 perhaps...

Haste action doesn't let you do a cantrip (unless your DM changed that too). By normal rules you can cantrip haste attack and offhand attack since you trigger TWF with the haste attack.

Regardless extra attack doesn't fit in.

[Finieous]

IMO, max (5 x hit chance) extra damage per round isn't worth a Ftr 1 dip, so I'd only consider it if I were planning to go two or three levels into fighter. Those scores on a high elf gets you Dex 18, Int 18, Con 17 -- Con 18 and save proficiency with Resilient at 4. You don't need Warcaster. I'd go straight BS to 7 for Extra Attack and 4th-level spells, then decide. When I got to that point, I'm guessing I'd just stay with Bladesinger.

[Halabalousa]

Haste action doesn't let you do a cantrip (unless your DM changed that too). By normal rules you can cantrip haste attack and offhand attack since you trigger TWF with the haste attack.

Regardless extra attack doesn't fit in.

Ah **** I thought I could get the extra attack on the hasted attack action, but I just re-read the Haste spell and it does say "one weapon attack only" on the additional action. Thats too bad :smallannoyed: I guess I will have to talk to the GM about that. Man they make it tough to get value :smalltongue:

[Halabalousa]

IMO, max (5 x hit chance) extra damage per round isn't worth a Ftr 1 dip, so I'd only consider it if I were planning to go two or three levels into fighter. Those scores on a high elf gets you Dex 18, Int 18, Con 17 -- Con 18 and save proficiency with Resilient at 4. You don't need Warcaster. I'd go straight BS to 7 for Extra Attack and 4th-level spells, then decide. When I got to that point, I'm guessing I'd just stay with Bladesinger.

Why dont I need Warcaster? I cant do the somatic part of spells on reactions without Warcaster.

[Halabalousa]

I don't know which feats are "lesser used"

Well I dont know either. GM hasnt provided a full ist yet :smallsmile:


DW is only good to get a whip offhand."

Why whip? Besides being awesome to wield it. Reach?


Warcaster is not needed: you can sheath your offhand for free

Again cant do somatic part on spell on reactions without it.


Fighter: take defense style for AC18, an extra 5 damage won't be much at higher levels. Wait until fireball before action surge.

But getting those extra 5 damage seems so much more fun than +1 AC :smalltongue:


Swash 5 / BS 10: If you miss your main attack (BB/GFB), you'll get a second chance at SA with fancy footwork. I'm not sure pushing beyond rogue 3 is necessary, better spells offer more.

Swash 5 BS 10 or Swash 3 BS 12 seems like the way to take this variant if I want to go Bladesinger heavy. The difference is 1d6 sneak attack and uncanny dodge vs 2 levels of casting (6th level spells).

[Finieous]

Why dont I need Warcaster? I cant do the somatic part of spells on reactions without Warcaster.

To be fair, you probably do want it if you're going to dual-wield, but you don't absolutely need it.

Round 1: Attack and sheath your off-hand weapon.
Round 2: Draw your off-hand weapon, attack, drop it.
Round 3: Pick up your off-hand weapon, attack, drop it.
[...]

You should have a backup weapon or two ready, and it's kinda dumb, but so are feat taxes.

[bid]

Why whip? Besides being awesome to wield it. Reach?
Yep. A mere +3 damage is boring, with the +1 AC it's double-boring.:smallbiggrin:
At least a whip is cool, even if you'd need spell sniper to fully use it.


Again cant do somatic part on spell on reactions without it.
Counterspell, mostly. Because absorb elements and shield can be somewhat covered by rogue features.

Thrown daggers/darts can solve lactose intolerance:smallwink:. You get your attack, but your hand stays empty.

By the time you reach level 5, you should have an idea how often you'd miss warcaster.

[Sariel Vailo]

I was going to throw out wizard 17 sorcerer 3 and grab metamagic quicken and twinned spell.also for legit go dragonic or storm for pure intrest and silly go wild magic
I was also contemplating a idea for my own how would a warlock dip intofor three levels be also if the patron was the ua blade one

[Sir cryosin]

You go half elf pick up 2 levels of warlock grab spells like armor of Agathy's, hex, and hellish rebuke. You can pick up invocations like armor of shadows, devil sight, ect

[Citan]

So Im going to participate in a new campaign soon and the Bladesinger has intrigued me for a while. We rolled for attribute stats and this is what I have to work with:

17, 17, 16, 12, 10, 8

With stats like that I can get two attributes at 18 (3 if one of them is charisma by picking half-elf). We will probably start the campaing in level 1 or 2 and it is expected to run untill level 15-16ish.

The GM has made a few tweaks and of those the following has implications for a possible bladesinger build:

-If you dont pick variant human you get to start with one of the usually lesser used feats (including racial feats), one of which is Dual Wielder. If the feat includes an attribute increase you dont get that part of the feat.
-You DO get to make an off hand attack as a bonus action after casting Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade as you action.

So with that in mind I think it might be time to try to build a dual wielding blade singer :smallsmile: The campaign isnt about min/maxing at all but I do like to build a character that is both fun to play and somewhat optimized. I dont think the GM will have any problems with me picking a non elf race for the bladesinger if thats what I desire.

I have thought about 3 kind of builds (having dex and int at 18 is obviously not a problem with my rolls and I can have at least 16 con as well, strenght will be the dump stat and wisdom probably wont get any love either):

1. Fighter 1, 2 or 3 + Bladesinger X
Starting at fighter for 1 level for the extra HPs (wizards are squishy, getting second wind is decent as well), con saving throw and fighting style (Two-Weapon Fighting). Then going Bladesinger and if I at some point feel like it dip back into fighter for a 2nd level getting action surge or 3rd level getting martial archetype (Battlemaster). Warcaster is a must ASAP and then probably +2 and and +2 int for the next two ASI although Mobile seems really fun when using Booming Blade just leaving an enemy stranded or taking extra damage if he wants to move! Using Haste you can still get full value for the extra attack at Bladesinger level 6 while still using Booming Blade / Green-Flame Blade. You could also just make the build Fighter X + Bladesinger 2 but thats doesnt really intrigue me.

Arcane Trickster X + Bladesinger X
Trickster and Bladesinger should (on paper at least) synergize as they both are int based. Starting in rogue seems like the way to go getting extra HPs, expertise and 1d6 sneak attack damage. Swapping saving throw proficiency in wis for dex is okay too I guess. Then going bladesinger untill first ASI and then what? I really dont know how the best level distrubution is in this build. Uncanny dodge at level 5 +3d6 SA and Evasion + 4d6 SA at level 7 are really nice. Just going Bladesinger 2 is an option as Trickster counts for 1/3 caster. Also I kinda feel like I want/need that 1 level fighter dib for Two-Weapon Fighting if I dual wield. ASI/feats are the same as above.

Swashbuckler X + Bladesinger X
Again going rogue for the first level and then 2 level Blademaster. After that either 2 more levels into Bladesinger for the ASI (getting warcaster) or back into rogue for a couple of levels to get Fancy Footwork (which is REALLY nice with Booming Blade) and Rakish Audacity. Again I dont really know what a good level distibution here either. Chosing less Blademaster levels limits the magic in this build more than in the trickster one. Swashbuckler is charisma based but cha doesnt seem TOO important (+ cha mod to initiative and Panache if going Swashbuckler to 9+) so I feel like I can get by with a moderate cha. Chosing half-elf I can get dex 18, int 18, con 16 and cha 14. I can get dex 18, int 18 and cha 18 but that will leave me with con 12 which Im not that happy about. Warcaster and +2 dex is again a must but after that ASI seems open (Mobile isnt needed because of Rakish Audacity). Fighter 1 dip for Two-Weapon Fighting though?

All advice is greatly appreciated! :smallcool:

PS. The build doesnt have to be dual wielding but it would be nice to try a dual wielding character now that the GM has made it a more accesible and stronger option.
Hi!

Well, with that nice a GM, I'd definitely go Dual-Wielder, stacking attacks.

Too lazy to look for my other posts in recent threads about it so I'll make it again. ;)

1. Fighter.
2. Wizard up to 6 (pick Warcaster at 4, ESPECIALLY since you have such crazy stats you can perfectly wait for a while before grabbing ASI).
By level 7 your character can achieve 4 attacks per turn: Haste + Extra Attack + bonus action.
By level 15 you trump any other martial barring a proper GWM Fighter.

As for whether you'd like to be a fullcaster or not...
1. If you want to be a full spellcaster, keep Wizard right all the way, keeping Action Surge from Fighter as a near-capstone. You will be rewarded for your patience with free 1st and 2nd level spells.

2. If you don't want to be a full caster then...
a) Be a Wood Elf to multiclass Hunter Ranger if you want to get yet another attack. You could also dip into a Wis caster to expand your tools.
b) Be a Half-Elf to multiclass into Paladin (although it's usually pretty MAD) and get at least Divine Smite.*
c) Be a Half-Elf to multiclass into Swashbuckler and get a hefty Initiative boost and up to Uncanny Dodge and Evasion).
d) Be a Half-Elf to multiclass into Bard and get extremely better versatility thanks to Magic Secrets (Elemental Weapon, Bless) and Bardic Inspiration, Heat Metal, Healing Words etc...

With those great stats whatever should work, lets see...
17, 17, 16, 12, 10, 8
Yes, no in fact you have to make a choice, you definitely cannot dip into both Rogue and Paladin. Also it would still make you very MAD because you would rely on both Dex and Int to get a decent armor.

Unless you dump DEX and get just "good" armor (Mage Armor + 4 INT = 17 AC) but that would be kinda a waste...
As a Half-Elf wanting to multiclass Paladin you could go...
STR 16, DEX 17+1, CON 10, INT 17+1, WIS 8, CHA 12+2
But then you would be awfully frail, although with great AC. You probably don't want that.

OR, as said, dump DEX to 10 so you get an extremely high CON. I'd probably go this way to make Paladin possible, but then would multiclass into it up to Paladin 6-7, making a true gish. Because having a 8 in WIS and no proficiency is begging an enemy caster to enrole you against your friends.

So, in the end, such a multiclass could totally work though, as long as you drop the dual wielding Haste idea (unless your GM agrees to give TWF to Paladin, and until you get at least Warcaster) because you would totally have to start as a Paladin.


If your campaign is going high level, I'd definitely stick with Wizard unless you really don't care about high level spells and features. In which case I'd build a character with several dips, while keeping Bladesinger's 14 level feature as a capstone (or close to).

Like...
--------
The Charismatic Wizard
Half-Elf: 8 STR / 18 DEX / 16 CON / 18 INT / 10 WIS / 14 CHA
1. Fighter 1
2. Bladesinger > 7
8. Lore Bard 3.
11. Bladesinger > 14
Finish Bard 5 for short-rest Bardic Inspiration.
Not the best of the best, but still great, especially if your party has no healer or skillmonkey.

The Hasty Bladesinger
Same stats, switch Bard with Tome Warlock: expanded versatility, Armor of Agathys for better defense, and short-rest Haste. ;)

In both cases, just pick Mobile feat really. ;)

The Immortal Mage Warrior
High Elf.
10 STR / 16+2 DEX / 17 CON / 17+1 INT / 12 WIS / 8 CHA
Start Fighter as usual, then gang up on feats: Durable first, as your starting feat: with a 18 CON, by RAW, when spending Hit Dice you would regain HP beyond the normal maximum of your die: 8>6. And you don't need Dual Wielder that badly for a Dex build. Warcaster then (to become extra great at keeping concentration, + easier casting), Resilient: Wisdom finally.
You actually don't want necessarily to take Mobile: with such good HP, AC and concentration, you can perfectly well take the tanking role for awhile.
You also get many options opening if you don't care about going fullcaster.
- Cleric: a single level dip in Knowledge, Life or Nature would bring extra skills or better healing, along with great buffs for when things go hairy, or just make enemies cry in pain (cast something extremely bad for monsters, cast Sanctuary, enjoy). A true multiclass, if nobody else in party can take care of healing, would bring you the decisive Beacon of Hope (decisively good with low magic healing and high HP allies. Less so otherwise) as well as Aid (great multiallies revive), Enhance Ability (one of the few great spells Wizard doesn't have) and other Cleric exclusive greatness.
- Rogue: if you really want to build on that tankyness: Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.
Or you could also grab Tough. XD

The Lightning fast Scouting Blade.
Wood Elf
10 STR / 16+2 DEX / 12 CON / 17 INT / 17+1 WIS / 8 CHA
This is another effective, although counter-intuitive (and obviously less optimized), build.
Start Fighter as usual, but then grab a Monk's 1 dip somewhere you'd like between Wizard 3 and 6. You get an immediate (albeit small) boost to AC and bonus action attack (obviously, this is not a dual-wielder build: pick Observant with +1 INT as the starting feat).
Then, although you certainly want more spells, try to bump Monk to Shadow Monk 4 as soon as possible: you get some Ki for either extra spells or extra Defense (Dodge).
This is one build in which you probably don't want to aim for fullcaster. Instead, a Monk 6+ / Wizard 9+ (depending on whether you also want some Rogue features in there or not) would prove very tanky in his own way, provided short rests are respected or more abundant: you can reserve your Ki for Dodge bonus action, then max DEX and WIS or bump CON. Anyways, your effective AC will boost through the roof (Unarmored AC 20, +Bladesong 4, + potential Mirror Image/Blur/Haste/etc, + potential Shield, + potential Dodge) especially if you take one (Light) Cleric dip for even more tankiness (Warding Flare, Command spell, Shield of Faith, Sanctuary).
If you go 6 levels or more in Monk, then ditch Shadow for Long Death. This will become borderline ridiculous: cast a high level concentration spell, cast Fear as an action, use Dodge as a bonus action and stay there, or Dash back. Good luck breaking you. ;)

-------
If there are several of my suggestions you'd like, as much as I love crazy multiclass, I'd recommend the Immortal one.
Considering that Bladesingers (and most Wizard) are generally very frail, being able to play one that laughs in the face of most things should be very refreshing.

[bid]

Durable first, as your starting feat: with a 18 CON, by RAW, when spending Hit Dice you would regain HP beyond the normal maximum of your die: 8>6.
The maximum regained for 1d6+Con18 would be 10, 8<10.


@JasonBrock20There has been confusion over the durable feat and the meaning of “roll” does a 20 con wizard regain a min 10 or 15 hp w/ feat? 10 – roll means die roll + mods. Anything that affects only the number yielded by the die will say so specifically.

— Mike Mearls (@mikemearls) August 3, 2014

[Citan]

The maximum regained for 1d6+Con18 would be 10, 8<10.


@JasonBrock20There has been confusion over the durable feat and the meaning of “roll” does a 20 con wizard regain a min 10 or 15 hp w/ feat? 10 – roll means die roll + mods. Anything that affects only the number yielded by the die will say so specifically.

— Mike Mearls (@mikemearls) August 3, 2014
Arf, so sad to read this... Makes the feat mostly useless...
Ah well, just another houserule for me then...

Or not in fact...
Technically, Mike is not Jeremy, nor official Errata, so we shouldn't really care in fact. He really has no official weight into rulings.

Beyond that, the explanation is kinda stupid to me and contradicting many other places in PHB as to what is referred by "roll" (although, I admit I'm not willing to pick and stress sources right now, it's late).

It would really make the feat useless.
Let's take a few examples to check that intuition...

1. Fighter, d10, 16 CON (standard all-around Fighter).
Average of d10: 5,5. Rolling a 1 is a 10% chance.
Let's say we rolled a 1.
Without durable: tough luck, you regain 1+3 = 4.
With Durable per Mike: "yoohoo", you regain (CON*2 min) 6 HP: 2 better.
Otherwise said, just rolling a 3 or more (70%) is enough to make the feat useless.
With normal Durable: yoohoo, you regain CON*2 + CON = 9 HP.

Let's compare to average value: 5+3 = 8.
Let's compare to maximum value: 10+3 = 13.
Otherwise said, it makes it just so that Fighter is sure to at least get something close to average, one way or another.

2. Barbarian, d12, 18 CON (tanky optimization).
Average of d12: 6,5. Rolling a 1 is ~8% chance (8,333333 etc )for those who like precision
Let's roll a 1.

Normal: well, big disappointment, you regain 1+4 = 5 HP.
"Mike Durable": 5<2*4, so you regain 8 HP.
Durable": 1< 2*4, so you regain 8+4 HP = 12.

To reach at least 8 HP normally, you require a roll of 4 or higher (~75%). Making this feat utterly useless in 75% of your rolls if you follow Mike's opinion.

Let's compare now the normal Durable comprehension with average roll:
conservative average = 6+4 = 10.
And with maximum: 12+4 = 16.
Again, the Durable feat as everyone understands it just makes sure that you get "normal" mileage out of your hit dice.

3. Wizard, d6, 16 CON (normal Wizard).
Chance to roll 1 on 1d6: 16%
Normal: regain 1+3 = 4 HP.
"Mike": regain 6 HP.
Durable: regain 9 HP.
Here we see the Durable feat be decent with Mike ruling, and shine with normal comprehension: you basically ensure you get the maximum HP possible.

And so, in what way should that be a bad thing?
You are called "Durable" for a reason, and for a caster especially (who needs to max casting stat and usually needs a good Dex also because AC depends on it), this is a very heavy investment.

So what if rarissime cases like Wizard with 20 CON broke the logic? Simple fix: just say that "the minimum from Durable cannot exceed the maximum number of the die".
Bim: easy to understand, totally logic (so easily acceptable), does not break the feat.
Makes Durable good for everyone and a great niche feat for those who just want to be the best meat shields available.

Much much better than that stupidity from Twitter (Mike seriously didn't take the time to think before answering, I see no better explanation because I don't think he would ruin something on purpose).

[bid]

It would really make the feat useless.
Yep. No playtester did the math, or the editors ignored the result.

A Con API gives you 2 hp, 1 from max hp, another from HD roll. Even accounting the long-rest half-HD-regained and ignoring saves, durable should "give" 1.5 hp.

The extreme Con20 wizard gets from its 1d6... 31/6 vs 21/6, an extra 10/6 ~ 1.67 hp
Con18 wizard gets 27/6, an extra 1 hp
Con20 sorcerer gets... 46/8 vs 36/8, an extra 10/8 ~ 1.2 hp


The other version:
Con16 wizard always roll 6 and gets 9 hp (+2.5 hp)
Con18 sorcerer always roll 8 and gets 12 hp (+3.5 hp)
Con20 fighter always roll 10 and gets 15 hp (+4.5 hp)
Which is ridiculously OP.



The "smart" version of durable would have been advantage: roll 2d6 keep best.

[Citan]

Y
The other version:
Con16 wizard always roll 6 and gets 9 hp (+2.5 hp)
Con18 sorcerer always roll 8 and gets 12 hp (+3.5 hp)
Con20 fighter always roll 10 and gets 15 hp (+4.5 hp)
Which is ridiculously OP.



The "smart" version of durable would have been advantage: roll 2d6 keep best.
Again, I don't see how in any way that would be "OP".
A Fighter that gets 20 CON certainly made some sacrifices elsewhere to get that high (like, getting very low mental scores or using several ASI just to bump CON).
Even truer for Sorcerer or Wizards who both need to boost DEX and casting stat, and get only 5 ASI in total. Meaning either have a low CON (so no worries of OPness in the first place) or low DEX (so no OPness either because they are easy to hit).

Furthermore, it's a benefit that affects only short-rest hit dice mechanic. It does not make you any more effective in combat (like GWM or Sharpshooter -much greater offense- or Tough -much better resilience since higher max HP- or Defensive Duelist -+6 to AC-), and it's something any Cleric who prepared Beacon of Hope would match or surpass depending on your actual CON.

It's just a feat that allows you to get great mileage from short-rest restoration.
ONLY if you also invested heavily in your CON, (which implies a tradeoff somewhere else), can you match, for you only, the effect of a 3rd level spell that can normally affect up to 6 people.
Otherwise, it's just a small boost to probabilities ensuring you get a regain at least equal to the expected average.
So balance is totally respected.

Durable as written is totally fine.

[bid]

Durable as written is totally fine.
Except it's not written that way.

Comparing to healing spells et al. is meaningless, since neither the Con ASI nor tough have any impact there.

The best argument of the bunch is you'll need a short rest without healing to get some use off durable. You'd also get good "argument mileage" from comparison to tough, which is always +2 hp.

With those 2 points and no night haze, I'll agree with you that it'd be an average feat read that way.


I still think tough is better than durable, no matter the reading.

[Deathtongue]

As someone who has played and is playing a Bladesinger up to level 12: my advice is not to MC at all.

A fighter dip isn't that bad. Constitution proficiency is very good. So is the +1 to AC. But every level from then on out you will regret.


From a pure powergaming perspective, I disagree with this assessment strongly. A straight Bladesinger's melee efficacy may drop off as it gains levels, but in my opinion -- unless your DM does things like 6-8 encounters per long rest, minimum -- that's a good thing. But even evaluating your performance in melee combat, multiclassing fails to bring the goods. Here's what I mean. Let's say you pick up two levels of Paladin (you rolled great!) or Fighter (more likely). Here's what you end up missing out on, besides the usual pain of being behind on ASIs on a class that needs all of them to max out their defensive stats and have a feat:

Level 6: You miss out on Fireball, Haste, and/or Extra Attack.
Level 8: But let's say you're a Bladesinger 6 / Fighter 2. Now you miss out on Polymorph and Greater Invis. One of them is a turbo-charged swiss army knife that you will always find a use for, the other one makes you a melee god.
Level 10: Let's say you're a Bladesinger 8 / Fighter 2. Now you miss out on Animate Objects. With Arcane Recovery, you could've cast this three times per day. This is a titanic boost to your DPR. You also miss out on Song of Defense. You have two good tricks of 'don't die instantly when monsters look at you funny' (Absorb Elements, Shield) but this completes the trinity. There are a lot of big-time damage makers you have no answer to and sometimes a critical hit sneaks through.
Level 14: You miss out on SIMULACRUM. Best feature anyone gets in the game. It's so good that I recommend snagging Control Water just so you'll have a source of snow for it You also miss out on Song of Victory, which is one of the biggest passive DPR adders per game. If you're using TWFing + Haste, this is an extra 16-20 damage per round. That smite or fighting style ain't looking so hot now.
Level 16: Actually, you don't miss out on much here. I haven't played at this level of play, but I would imagine really regretting that I didn't have Maze. But this is probably the level in which I'd feel most comfortable being behind two levels.
Level 18: Now we're back to regrets again. You miss out on Spell Mastery. This is infinite shield and misty step/mirror image all day long. This is better than any class feature any martial gives you with the possible exception of Aura of Protection. You also miss out on Foresight and Wish and True Polymorph. Any one of those three spells is better than any class feature any martial gives you, period.
Level 20: The game's over. Who cares?

Bladesinger doesn't become lackluster at melee combat in non-extended workdays because they're bad at melee combat. If you consider your spell arsenal as an aspect of melee combat, they completely explode in effectiveness at around level 10. The 'problem' is that their spellcasting arsenal becomes BETTER than melee combat. Greater Invis will turn you into a melee god against anything that can't see you, but Fly upcast to level 4 or turning the out-of-resources rogue into a Giant Ape will save your party's life more often. Animate Objects is good and all for your DPR, but it won't trivialize encounters like Wall of Force. You could use Contingency to fast-cast Haste or Greater Invis for a second encounter in the day. Or you could use it to cast Mass Suggestion.

I'd only recommend grabbing multiclass levels of Fighter (or a level of anything) if you were at level 18/19 going on level 20. But then again, you're missing out on 1-2 spell slots of level 6 or 7. Those could've amount to extra Contingencies if you're REALLY that devoted to fighting in melee combat.