Tomb of horror 5e

[Doomwhispo]

I'm preparing to run tombs of horror from the tales from the yawning portal
I'll have a group of 4 or 5 players
I've hears it's one of the hardest dungeons ever made so I have a couple of questions
1. What kind of characters should I let my group make?
I was thinking lvl 12 and 80.000gc to buy magical items.
2. Does anyone have a link to a group playing the adventure so that I can see how other dms are doing it?
3. The last boss a demiLich has a combat rating of 18, but I saw online homebred acererak has 21 and seems a much better final boss.. hmm what do you guys think?
4. Any other tips are welcome! I want to do it properly since its a classic adventure.

[Grod_The_Giant]

"Don't bother, it's a slow, frustrating, and miserable experience experience?"

[Doomwhispo]

Well... haha its a classic and made by a big name so we will see... Also since its a conversion if anyone thinks some stuff got lost in the conversion and how to put it back in that would be sweet. Thanks in advance

[some guy]

When I ran it I let my players make 2 level 11 characters, and gave them about 1650 gp per player to spend (with the best non-magical armor for free for the martial types) (I used the Sane Magical Prices document, not the DMG prices). I ran it untill the first half, and I would say it was too easy for level 11's. One problem is if you want the characters to defeat Acererak, they need to be much higher levels. About 80% of the dungeon is a nice challenge for perhaps level 9's, I'd say.

With 5e's at will cantrips (mage hand) and ritual spells (a smaller issue) a lot of obstacles can be easily bypassed, also in the 5e version the spiked pit traps got demoted from 100 ft deep with deadly poison to 10 ft with "eh" levels of poison.

I liked the 3.5 conversion better. Changing cantrips to level 0 spell slots and the removal of ritual tags might help somewhat. Increasing the deadliness of traps is also important. Warn your players there won't be that much combat.
As written the dungeon has no stakes in regards with the campaign world, it doesn't really matter if the characters defeat Acererak or not. If you want a bit more investment, maybe Acererak can conquer the world if undefeated or astral gates open sending the world into chaos and madness.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I'm preparing to run tombs of horror from the tales from the yawning portal
I'll have a group of 4 or 5 players
I've hears it's one of the hardest dungeons ever made so I have a couple of questions


In previous editions it was, the 5e conversion in Yawning Portal is very toned down. Like most things in 5e, it's possible to die, just not very likely.
In previous editions, dying in Tomb of Horror was very likely.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well... haha its a classic and made by a big name so we will see... Also since its a conversion if anyone thinks some stuff got lost in the conversion and how to put it back in that would be sweet. Thanks in advance
No, I've played it. It's awful. There are two things that slow RPGs to a crawl: excessive player paranoia that makes them argue for thirty minutes before taking even a small action, and puzzles with very specific solutions.

Guess what happens when you combine the two? (Hint: it's not additive. It's exponential).

Guess what ToH is entirely composed of?

[Seekergeek]

Tomb of Horror, more than any other module I've encountered (and certainly in the Yawning Portal) seems to hinge on how your table approaches things. As Grod said, with the wrong group it could be equal parts frustrating and dull. At our table it was a blast and a nice change of pace. There's no right answer because there's no right way to play D&D. I have no idea what Grod's table is like, obviously. For mine, the characters and the players were both well aware of the dungeon's reputation and as characters determined the risk was outweighed by the potential rewards. The roleplaying of paranoia, fear and the good-natured ribbing for cowardice and greed were highpoints for us. I can see with different characters or players that those same features would result in a grind or worse. We were a five man party of level 9 or 10 PCs, I think, when it was plunked as a sort of side-quest in to our overarching campaign. Four of us survived to tell the tale. One died of a broken d20.

[Unoriginal]

In previous editions it was, the 5e conversion in Yawning Portal is very toned down. Like most things in 5e, it's possible to die, just not very likely.
In previous editions, dying in Tomb of Horror was very likely.

Pretty sure the 3.X version was considered very toned down too.

[Doomwhispo]

Hmm so lvl 10 is high enough.. ah sounds like they made it a lot easier in 5e.... I'm gonna try make it deadly again.... haha I'm not getting clear answer to most of my questions but thanks anyway for the reply so so far guys!

[Beelzebubba]

I hate that this module is always run out of context.

It was designed for a tournament, where time pressure to win forced people to make decisions quickly, so the kind of paranoid pixel-bitching a solo table gets away with would make you lose.

Maybe you have to recreate that pressure somehow in-game, probably tied to strict time-keeping. Which is incredibly old-school, and probably a big adjustment even if done well.

IMO, the only way I would ever run it again is to have a group of 4-5 tables with a $2 buy-in prize pool, pre-gem characters, a global timer, scored based on accomplishments, milestones, and deaths. THAT would re-create the way this thing was meant to be played, and increase the stress and hilarity of the gory deaths.

[McNinja]

No, I've played it. It's awful. There are two things that slow RPGs to a crawl: excessive player paranoia that makes them argue for thirty minutes before taking even a small action, and puzzles with very specific solutions.

Guess what happens when you combine the two? (Hint: it's not additive. It's exponential).

Guess what ToH is entirely composed of?

This, exactly. It can be fun for some players, but personally, as a DM, it wasn't really that fun for me. It's a slog, and it makes your players paranoid. There are also very specific solutions to multiple puzzles, but no maximum number of guesses allowed... guess what my players did when they came up to the first puzzle? They sat there for 45 minutes and tried every single conceivable answer. It's not as fun when you have to keep saying "nothing happens" after they try a dozen different things.

[DanyBallon]

Like Beelzebubba said, the adventure is best run with a time constraint, whether in game or real life.

Personally I'd do it tournament style with players bringing a few new characters or choosing from selected pre-gen all wearing brown pants and red shirts and limited gear that yet need to be decided. The reward being that they may keep a few magic items or portion of the wealth gained, relative to the number of character that they needed to run through the dungeon.

As any good mean DM that run ToH, if a player wants to bring an existing character and it happen that said character die, they they need to be ready to see their character suffer from some kind of permanent injury. In exchange, they can get in the dungeon with all their gear.

[ZorroGames]

One of my original D&D mentorsplayed said module (original) with Gygax as DM and his description: "Die gloriously, die hilariously, die doing the wrong thing, die doing the right thing, die of boredom, but die you will."

5e version I cannot speak to but if it is anyway like the original the only significant fighting for the hack and slash crowd will be delaying their inevitable death at/near the end.

[Doomwhispo]

So what about the starting group? Someone mentioned lvl 11 is good, how much gold should I give them to get magical items? 30.000?

[Cl0001]

Honestly the tomb of horrors is horrible. It's not very well balanced because most traps are seemingly balanced for characters in a mid level range, but there are tons of them and nearly all of them are pitfalls with some spikes at the bottom, and most monsters are of a very low cr. But to truly defeat the dungeon you need to kill acererack a cr 18 demilich. Then the dungeon is needlessly complicated, with passage ways hidden inside of traps. It's literally just a huge pain in the ass for some decent rewards depending on the path you go down.

[Beelzebubba]

Honestly the tomb of horrors is horrible. It's not very well balanced because most traps are seemingly balanced for characters in a mid level range, but there are tons of them and nearly all of them are pitfalls with some spikes at the bottom, and most monsters are of a very low cr. But to truly defeat the dungeon you need to kill acererack a cr 18 demilich. Then the dungeon is needlessly complicated, with passage ways hidden inside of traps.

Again. This bears repeating. That's because it's not a story. It's a puzzle. The 'needless complications' are meant to weed out complacent and dull players who are playing against the clock vs. others.

It's a bomb-defusing contest designed by a masterful troll. You don't win 'the kingdom and the girl', you count how many fingers you have left at the end.

It's like one a 'mud run'. (An early ones, not the big commercial ones now.) Where you crawl under barbed wire, jump into freezing cold water, and drive yourself to exhaustion on an obstacle course designed for the military. It's not meant to be pleasant, it's meant to be incredibly hard, in a competition with others, where just finishing is an achievement and finishing first is something to be proud of.


It's literally just a huge pain in the ass

Now you're getting it! :smallbiggrin:

[FabulousFizban]

run the mines of madness for 5e instead

[ZorroGames]

Again. This bears repeating. That's because it's not a story. It's a puzzle. The 'needless complications' are meant to weed out complacent and dull players who are playing against the clock vs. others.

It's a bomb-defusing contest designed by a masterful troll. You don't win 'the kingdom and the girl', you count how many fingers you have left at the end.

It's like one a 'mud run'. (An early ones, not the big commercial ones now.) Where you crawl under barbed wire, jump into freezing cold water, and drive yourself to exhaustion on an obstacle course designed for the military. It's not meant to be pleasant, it's meant to be incredibly hard, in a competition with others, where just finishing is an achievement and finishing first is something to be proud of.



Now you're getting it! :smallbiggrin:

Sounds like SEAL training.

[Safety Sword]

Sounds like SEAL training.

Except you know you're going to wash out of ToH. At least some people become SEALs...

[ZorroGames]

Except you know you're going to wash out of ToH. At least some people become SEALs...

Or Pararescue...

Point taken.

I understand a couple of people actually survived ToH in the original version only to be nerfed by... essentially the DM's fiat. But the person who told me that was "not a fan" of said famous DM so I cannot verify from another source.

[Doomwhispo]

Thanks for all the warning, I am however still planning to run it... I am quite stubborn.
Anyone know where I can find a link to a group running it on YouTube or something? I found a nice one but it was only the first part, I'd like to see a group playing the whole dungeon... 5e preferably since I'm gonna run the version from the yawning portal.

[ZorroGames]

Thanks for all the warning, I am however still planning to run it... I am quite stubborn.
Anyone know where I can find a link to a group running it on YouTube or something? I found a nice one but it was only the first part, I'd like to see a group playing the whole dungeon... 5e preferably since I'm gonna run the version from the yawning portal.

Okay. Enjoy. Let us know how it goes. I wondered how ToH would translate to 5e.

Some people like jumping out a perfectly functional airplane. Army types call them paratroopers; Air Force types call them "living air drop cargo."

[Beelzebubba]

Thanks for all the warning, I am however still planning to run it... I am quite stubborn.
Anyone know where I can find a link to a group running it on YouTube or something? I found a nice one but it was only the first part, I'd like to see a group playing the whole dungeon... 5e preferably since I'm gonna run the version from the yawning portal.

Good! That's the spirit.

Some ideas from someone who's DM'd it three times, in AD&D and 3E - and will do things a bit differently the 4th (my current table wants me to run it now).

I've run it with the characters from the books, and letting characters bring in their own custom builds. First lesson? Make the characters Pregen. Give them the major items, and let them equip with a small fraction of the money that's left. Otherwise they'll be totally optimal and it'll be easy.

First idea, play up the horror aspect. Describe weird noises. Make the bottom of the pits full of blood, guts, and body parts - then it disappears. Start pulling them aside one by one to describe horrifying visions. That will make it creepy. Like, make the light spells project blood red light. The deeper they get into the tomb, the diameter slowly recedes in lit diameter, and winks out suddenly from time to time; when they recast it - once, just to **** with them - make a horrifying demonic face pull quickly into the darkness.

Second idea, IMO I highly recommend a mechanic that pressures them to do the Tomb quickly, and to conserve resources and do things with their wits instead of spells. Maybe consider taking a trick from Return to the Tomb of Horrors, when the adventure gets to the negative energy plane. Make their healing spells less effective...they either heal 20%, then 40% less...or even fail occasionally. Or, each time they cast one, it's 1hp less, cumulative, so eventually 1st level heals do nothing at all. See what I mean? Something to prevent the inch-by-inch pixel bitching would be really good.

If you're OK with the work to convert, it might be great to even grab a copy of 'Return to the Tomb of Horrors' and run it with the undead city that built up around the tomb. It's a super creepy and creates some fun combat or sneaky tension before and after.

[Doomwhispo]

Thanks belzebubba.that is awesome.
Any ideas how I can device a time pressure for the players?

[djreynolds]

There is 2 ways to run this game.

1. Let the PCs take their time and go by the book

2. Use the dungeon as a frame work and find a way to push them. Otherwise they are going to take forever

I added in an extra element, another adventuring band on their tracks and this helped me push them.

Find away to abuse the part where etherealness causes demons to plane shift into the dungeon.

I also got rid of some the specific solution traps. They were kind of silly. I mean to disarm a trap you a d20.... no one really expects the PCs to actually IRL to know how to disarm a trap. If you roll and beat the perception check to know a trap is there and an investigation check to know what kind of trap it is and how to avoid and then roll a disarm trap to well.... disarm it.... well you got by it.

Grod is right it isn't that fun, IMO, use the adventure as script but allow yourself to go off page

[Doomwhispo]

Anyone got a nice youtube channel where i can see a group play the whole adventure untill.the end?

[Human Paragon 3]

Read this:

https://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=345106

[Malifice]

Want to recreate the feel of the original (as a one off)?

Firstly read (and re-read) the adventure. Know it off by heart. Next:

Adventure Premise:

Acerak built the tomb to entice high level adventurers to their doom, stealing the life essence of potent tomb interlopers (and their treasure - thats what the teleoprters do; drop magic gear in his lair room).

Once he has enough life essence, his plan will be complete - the Prime material will be drawn into the Shadowfell, and all life will be extinguised, and he will rule over the corrupted realm as a God.

Sages have discovered that he is on the cusp of victory. The PCs are hired to head to the Tomb, and then locate and slay Acerak

They have (36 hours after they get to the Island) to succeed and slay Acerak. If they fail Acerak's grand plan will finish and everyone dies.

Thanks to the time limit above, they have 36 hours (enough time for 1 long rest) to track down and slay the lich. Put them on the clock. Time everything - the excavation of the tomb - figuring out puzzles - time spent in chambers - short and long rests - everything.

From here:

1) The PCs are 9th level with 1 [rare or lesser] and 1 [uncommon] magic item each. In additon they have 5 potions of healing each, and whatever armor, weapons and equipment from the PHB they can carry. Point buy for stats and MCing and feats are allowed (they'll need it).

If you're feeling super merciful, as a back up let them create a second character also of 9th level, but with no magic items (just normal gear). This PC is assumed to be travelling with the party (but does nothing and cant be attacked or targetted or interacted with in any way). He's there as a back up if (when) the PC dies.

2) Any attempt to teleport with a destination or departure point inside of the Tomb - fails (they take 5d6 psychic damage and are stunned 1 round; Charisma save DC 15 half damage and negate Stun) and has a 50 percent chance of triggering a Demon attack (the demons watch the Tomb from the Ethereal planr, and reset the traps, raise dead the monsters, fix broken or smashed doors, replace treasure etc every 24 hours). Go with a Hezrou, a Vrock or two and some minor demons. Whatever adds up to a 'Hard' encounter.

3) Dont hold back with the tomb. It's supposed to be run on hard mode. Dont fudge rolls that kill them. Laugh when one dies. They'll hate you for it. Its part of the fun. Every Player of DnD likes to tell the story of how they 'defeated' the Tomb of Horrors. Its supposed to be a nearly impossible challenge. Very few players succeed in this dungeon when run by a competent DM.

They want bragging rights, they have to earn it.

4) Dont give any tips. The PCs must tell you exactly what they are doing. You then determine if it has a chance of success. None of this 'Ill use perception on the door' malarky. They must tell you exactly how they are searching the door - how they approach it, what they are touching, looking at, looking for etc.

10' poles, mirrors, chalk, pitons etc are a must. Be firm but fair.

5) Print and use the handouts. They're a vital part of the adventure.

6) Consider changing a few things in the dungeon. Many players have tried it before (or may sneak a peak before they try it). Change a Teleporter here or there or there into a Sphere of Annhilation (and vice versa). Keep them on their toes.

[Doomwhispo]

Sounds good, thats why im looking for anonline show to see the tomb played, i want to know it in and out.you reckon a group of lvl 9 can clear and defeat the last boss?

[Finback]

1. What kind of characters should I let my group make?

Several.

(padding this out because)

[Malifice]

Sounds good, thats why im looking for anonline show to see the tomb played, i want to know it in and out.you reckon a group of lvl 9 can clear and defeat the last boss?

That depends on how smart you play it.

Centring its own anti-magic field on itself makes it totally immune to pretty much everything. It also results in its being unable to use several of its own special abilities. All of its abilities that are specifically called out as being magical.

From memory I think it can still use its howl ability and maybe one other.

On the flip side of the coin it makes it totally immune to all spells and all magical and non-magical weapon attacks.

Even still smart player characters will try to grab him to stop him from flying away.

In my version of the dungeon I designed it for 20th level player characters so I upped the challenge of Acerak. I increased the dice size of all of his attacks by one step, I increased the save DCs by 2, I doubled his hit points and added +5 to his armour class.

I also included a few shadows as mooks (The undead remains of prior victims). I gave the shadows proficiency in wisdom saves and advantage on saves against being turned (To represent the unhallowed nature of the tomb).

The tomb chamber itself I also increased its size, and placed some interesting terrain features in there to make the battle more interesting.