Peasant Medicine

[unseenmage]

It occured to me that magical healing can be too expensive for the commoner to afford.
Then the following wandered through my skull...

Just how infectious are D&D/PF diseases compared to their real world counterparts anyway?

What access does the average commoner have to disease curative options?

Are there mundane doctors in the average gameworld?

[Crake]

Just how infectious are D&D/PF diseases compared to their real world counterparts anyway?

The level of infectiousness is pretty much directly related to it's save DC. The higher the save DC, the more likely someone is to become infected around a sick person, assuming they're exposed to the infection vector. Airborne and contact diseases being the worst two.


What access does the average commoner have to disease curative options?

A heal check can be used to aid someone in recovery, and a healers kit can provide a +2 bonus on that check, 10 uses for 50 gold, so a trained wife could easily care for the house if people got sick. Pathfinder also has the option for antiplague, which is similar to antivenom, it gives you a +5 bonus on saves vs disease for an hour, or, if you're already sick, it lets you roll twice on your save vs the disease for that day, taking the better result. Antiplague is also 50gp, per dose though.


Are there mundane doctors in the average gameworld?

Most certainly. An expert with high wis, max ranks in heal, the self-sufficient feat, and skill focus (heal) can get a decent +14 to heal at level 4, using the commoner array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) assuming he puts his 13 into wis, and uses his level 4 bonus ability point to increase his wisdom. With a take 10, he can get a 24 on his heal check to perform long term care for up to 8 patients, while even a level 1 trained nurse with 13 wis, max ranks, and skill focus (heal) can get +8, enough to take 10 for an 18, and two nurses working together could asisst one another to get up to 20 if their solo efforts aren't enough.

[DrKerosene]

I think a trained hireling, at 3sp per day for their Heal Skill, up to a Remove Disease at 150gp, is within the range of a Commoner to be able to afford (assuming they've saved up all year http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?443776-D-amp-D-Commoners-Make-Plenty-of-Money).

I've seen the Commoner Handbook and I think it's not unreasonable for a community to have at least one dedicated Heal-er.

[unseenmage]

So, from what I'm seeing there won't be any Black Death or Spanish Flu like scenarios in a D&D world without some seriously higher DCs.

Isn't Lycanthropy still a disease even though it's a magical one?
How in the gameworld does anybody ever actually succumb to it with numbers like the above helping them out?

[Blackhawk748]

So, from what I'm seeing there won't be any Black Death or Spanish Flu like scenarios in a D&D world without some seriously higher DCs.

Isn't Lycanthropy still a disease even though it's a magical one?
How in the gameworld does anybody ever actually succumb to it with numbers like the above helping them out?

Because they don't know they have it. Lycanthropy doesnt do anything once your infected until the first Full Moon, and then its to late.

[Crake]

So, from what I'm seeing there won't be any Black Death or Spanish Flu like scenarios in a D&D world without some seriously higher DCs.

Isn't Lycanthropy still a disease even though it's a magical one?
How in the gameworld does anybody ever actually succumb to it with numbers like the above helping them out?

Lycanthropy is more of a curse, you can't use heal checks to rid yourself of it, because there's no ongoing damage to check against, it's a one and done situation. Only method of removal is mid-high level spells at the right time by the right people, or fresh belladonna within the first hour of infection. That last one is the only way someone with a heal check can help with, but getting freshly picked belladonna is the hard part.

The black death and spanish flu were only a problem due to a critical population size and a decent incubation period within which the disease could spread. Combine that with a general lack of medicine and poor living standards 90% of the population died in their homes without any professional help. How abundant medical aid is in your setting will vary, I wasn't saying it would be common, just that it can exist.

[Fouredged Sword]

You should also consider the local healer to have craft ranks and make their own healers kit. 15gp per 10 uses is pretty cheap. Cheaper still they have prof (herbalist) to gather their own herbs to act as materials.

They can also do without a kit of a penalty. Worth doing for minor problems.

Some may even have a class level in adept and have craft alchemy to make more potent medicin.

[unseenmage]

... or fresh belladonna within the first hour of infection. That last one is the only way someone with a heal check can help with, but getting freshly picked belladonna is the hard part.
...
This makes me wonder why a potted belladonna isn't part of the standard healer's kit or even just the seeds as part of a magicasl healer's kit.

[Sagetim]

It occured to me that magical healing can be too expensive for the commoner to afford.
Then the following wandered through my skull...

Just how infectious are D&D/PF diseases compared to their real world counterparts anyway?

What access does the average commoner have to disease curative options?

Are there mundane doctors in the average gameworld?

I mean, you're kind of assuming that clerics are always going to charge for healing magic that literally costs them nothing to cast. Like, Remove Disease has no material components, cure spells, lesser restoration, healing blindness and deafness and so on all land in low level spells that don't cost you any money to cast.

Now, some clerics are going to be jerks and charge money for their services (and probably demand fees similar to those laid out in the player's handbook, especially for wandering adventurers who may well equate to murder hobo's in their eyes). But members of their flock? the faithful masses that pray to their god because they tell them to do so? These are the people that the clerics would use their spells to aid without charging the poor buggers. At least, not beyond collecting a tithe (a 10% tax on income/produce collected once a season) and taking any donations that might show up during mass.

Now, the tithe thing was a real world thing, but I kind of assume that the official religion of a region has a similar arrangement with the people that live there. If the clerics of your world are really going to refuse to cast spells to help their faithful free of charge, they'll probably find themselves losing followers to a cleric who Will cast spells for free (especially if it's a healing god, like Illmater or Pelor). Hell, if an evil cleric is willing to heal your sicknesses free of charge (just convert) while the clerics of the good local deity are busy trying to get the average person to shell out money for every little thing, you could wind up ushering in the worship of some Very evil gods, very quickly, just because their clerics were willing to respond to the needs of the masses to win them as followers of their deity.

Then, After the good clerics have been purged. When it's too late and the options for alternatives have been driven away. Then it is time for the evil clerics to start implementing whatever ridiculous agenda their god demands of their worshippers. Also punishments for not adhering to those rules already by the time they were implemented.

My point being that no setting's commoners should be completely bereft of healing magic. Clerics are powered by their faith, and in 3.5 and pathfinder they can be of ideals. So it's not out of the question for a person to go from faithful to having the ability to work miracles because of their faith, with prayer facilitating the refreshing of said miraculous powers. Sure, that might not jive with the class system that dnd uses, but it fits with the rules that have been laid out and technically a commoner could retrain from commoner 2/cleric 1 to cleric 3, after they've gotten some time to get a handle on their capabilities. By linking up with the organized religion of whatever god they worship, they probably wouldn't even have to pay for any retraining costs themselves, and could proceed from there to be an itinerant preacher that helps the people of their faith for free.

Now, that said, it's already been pointed out that heal is a pretty decent option for treating diseases, poisons, wounds, and so on when you don't have spells as an option. Even with spells, clerics with heal ranks are probably going to be more common than regular doctors. After all, in Dungeons and Dragons settings, being faithful and praying for miracles can cause wounds to cease to exist, can banish diseases with more effectiveness than real world medicine, and with enough diamond dust, can make people who have been dead so long that they are skeletons (or have no remains) come back to life. In the face of the potential for abilities like that, it doesn't make much sense to just be an expert with a lot of heal skill focus, when a little genuine faith can supplement your mundane capabilities with miracles.

[AlanBruce]

This makes me wonder why a potted belladonna isn't part of the standard healer's kit or even just the seeds as part of a magicasl healer's kit.

Because in many scenarios, even fantasy ones like in D&D, the common populace at large is not aware of these creatures. Many regard them as 'folk tales' at best, or ominous dark history at worst, best not divulged and sung in town or tavern alike.

Bottom line is: it depends on the setting.

1. Are lycans so well known that every household has a silver weapon rack in the living room and a Belladonna garden in the back yard? If that's the case, I pity the Lycans and any plot related to them.



Or...


2. Are they blissfully unaware, leading their lives like any other commoner ought to: tilling the fields, milking the cows, wooing the wench...

And getting mauled at night by something nobody ever saw coming or ever will unless professionals (aka the PCs) are called in?

[unseenmage]

...

Now, that said, it's already been pointed out that heal is a pretty decent option for treating diseases, poisons, wounds, and so on when you don't have spells as an option. Even with spells, clerics with heal ranks are probably going to be more common than regular doctors. After all, in Dungeons and Dragons settings, being faithful and praying for miracles can cause wounds to cease to exist, can banish diseases with more effectiveness than real world medicine, and with enough diamond dust, can make people who have been dead so long that they are skeletons (or have no remains) come back to life. In the face of the potential for abilities like that, it doesn't make much sense to just be an expert with a lot of heal skill focus, when a little genuine faith can supplement your mundane capabilities with miracles.
For me the inverse is also true, why bother being a heal centric spellcaster when mundane healing does the trick just fine. In fact it amuses me to imagine the kindly cleric wandering about trying to help but allthe common folk are like, 'Nevermind, we got this. Our lives as impoverished farming folk are in constant peril so we all know how to healing works. Thanks though.', then the despondent cleric shambles dejectedly off. :smalltongue:

More seriously, I was contemplating how healing goes for thorp dwelling or otherwise isolated nonheroic mundanes; though the initial thought was that magical healing is expensive, it was just the catalyst. My apologies for any confusion.



Because in many scenarios, even fantasy ones like in D&D, the common populace at large is not aware of these creatures. Many regard them as 'folk tales' at best, or ominous dark history at worst, best not divulged and sung in town or tavern alike.

Bottom line is: it depends on the setting.

1. Are lycans so well known that every household has a silver weapon rack in the living room and a Belladonna garden in the back yard? If that's the case, I pity the Lycans and any plot related to them.

Or...

2. Are they blissfully unaware, leading their lives like any other commoner ought to: tilling the fields, milking the cows, wooing the wench...

And getting mauled at night by something nobody ever saw coming or ever will unless professionals (aka the PCs) are called in?
I suppose the Knowledge DCs for identifying monsters would bear this out as well.

One wonders though, how often does a werecreature have to plague a given civilization before belladonna and silver are simply provided by the powers that be.
One could almost even assume that for every good deity who sends a vision to their followers instructing in the domestication of belladonna there's an ill tempered deity sending some sort of domesticated-belladonna-rot-mold or something.

[AlanBruce]

I suppose the Knowledge DCs for identifying monsters would bear this out as well.

One wonders though, how often does a werecreature have to plague a given civilization before belladonna and silver are simply provided by the powers that be.
One could almost even assume that for every good deity who sends a vision to their followers instructing in the domestication of belladonna there's an ill tempered deity sending some sort of domesticated-belladonna-rot-mold or something.

Depends on the civilization and werecreature, I suppose.

A well established metropolis, with scholars, clerics and organized law enforcement would have the resources and knowledge to deal with plagues of this sort.

That isn't to say you can't have such outbursts in a city- Wererats are a thing. And so are sewer complexes were they typically nest. I believe 2nd Edition states that they are smart enough to not let their numbers swell too much so as to not be found out and suddenly have a contingent of clerics and paladins knocking on their doorstep.


Conversely, a small hamlet or thorp in the middle of Woodsville, hundreds of miles away from solid help could be plagued regularly by werewolves and none would be the wiser until half the town were turned already.

As stated earlier, it's all setting dependent.

[Crake]

I suppose the Knowledge DCs for identifying monsters would bear this out as well.

One wonders though, how often does a werecreature have to plague a given civilization before belladonna and silver are simply provided by the powers that be.
One could almost even assume that for every good deity who sends a vision to their followers instructing in the domestication of belladonna there's an ill tempered deity sending some sort of domesticated-belladonna-rot-mold or something.

Keep in mind that belladonna is a poison, so cultivating it is... eehh. Children might wander out into the garden and eat it, or more malicious people might use it against other townsfolk. Basically, everyone having a source of poison in their backyard isn't a good idea.

[unseenmage]

Keep in mind that belladonna is a poison, so cultivating it is... eehh. Children might wander out into the garden and eat it, or more malicious people might use it against other townsfolk. Basically, everyone having a source of poison in their backyard isn't a good idea.

So are the green tops of potatoes...

[DrKerosene]

I suppose the Knowledge DCs for identifying monsters would bear this out as well.

If you use default rules, it is possible someone who has any ranks in the relevant knowledge skill won't succeed even if they are involved first-hand enough to make the knowledge check. I like the idea of RAW orc commoners with no ranks being unable to identify humanoids, animals, etc, or anything at all.

In a Thorp it seems easier (more practical?) to have an optimized Heal check than all the relevant Knowledge skills, both NPCs would probably be "Pillars of the Community" though.

Masterwork tools and using craft or profession skill synergy seem more likely to be allowed and affordable for Heal Checks than the Knowledge ones. Or at least more broadly applicable. I've never been able to get a "blanket/all-scenarios" masterwork tool for any knowledge skill for 50 gold.

Wightocalypse scenarios, or any kind of campaign-level thing that would spread fast enough to tax spells per day, seem like they have potential to tear through anything short of a large sized settlement. Kyuss undead, Ragnorra, Necrotic Cyst stuff, all seem likely to be outside cases compared to Lycanthropy.

I suppose Eberron may have a take on managing low-population fringes. The crusades to kill were-ceeatures is probably the main thing worth looking up. I believe Ravenloft has a Dread Realm with a Wererat focus, and one with Wolfweres and some Werewolves, but they seem to have their own take on how typical were-creatures behave.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yah, but a commoner scholar is likely a smart old expert with keeper of stories. He likely has another profession, like healer or scribe, but also knows a lot. Accessories like a small personal library collected over the years (crafted himself to save cost) means you can stack up very high bonuses pretty easy for knowledge checks.

He could even spend a feat on access to the psionic power call to mind to let him ruminate on a question over days until he eventually rolls.well.

[Sagetim]

For me the inverse is also true, why bother being a heal centric spellcaster when mundane healing does the trick just fine. In fact it amuses me to imagine the kindly cleric wandering about trying to help but allthe common folk are like, 'Nevermind, we got this. Our lives as impoverished farming folk are in constant peril so we all know how to healing works. Thanks though.', then the despondent cleric shambles dejectedly off. :smalltongue:

More seriously, I was contemplating how healing goes for thorp dwelling or otherwise isolated nonheroic mundanes; though the initial thought was that magical healing is expensive, it was just the catalyst. My apologies for any confusion.
*snip*

Oh, yeah. And it's not an unfair inference to make from the way the game's rules are written. There's a table in the player's handbook for paying spell casters for services, and the statement that clerics are spell casters, so jumping to clerics wanting to get paid for their spells is pretty fair. And some clerics probably do, like evil clerics for a neutral god of trade*, or particularly lawful neutral clerics in a city where the law mandates that All services must be paid for.

*using all kinds of justifications, but ultimately just wanting to get as much personal wealth as possible.

To be fair though, mundane healing isn't as effective as magical healing. It might 'do' but I think people would have a serious preference for 'clap clap, no more clap for you' than 'Well, keep making those fort saves, and we'll keep stuffing these radishes where the sun don't shine and making you eat these herbs we think might help'.

[ZamielVanWeber]

To be fair though, mundane healing isn't as effective as magical healing. It might 'do' but I think people would have a serious preference for 'clap clap, no more clap for you' than 'Well, keep making those fort saves, and we'll keep stuffing these radishes where the sun don't shine and making you eat these herbs we think might help'.

Given that an expert with Wis 14 can easily rock a +11 on Heal treating diseases is not too hard as very few have DCs above 21.

[DrKerosene]

As far as I can tell, Libraries would take up most of the gear/wealth for NPCs of levels 2-4. More optimization is also needed for pumping additional skills. I don't think adding 5 ranks in a Profession or Craft skill is going to help a second level NPC as much as just investing in another Knowledge Skill at that level range. More feats are needed to boost multiple knowledge skills, and it is probably more common to find a +WIS race than a +INT race as far as I can tell. Though age modifiers boost both stats.

Also, it's probably easier to pack up your healing stuff and take it with you. I mean a healer kit is just more portable, and doesn't take up such a huge percentage of their wealth.

Field Bandages (DC 10) auto-stabilize after two rounds, which means a dedicated level-1 healer-Commoner could probably succeed on a roll of 1 to save someone. A third level Expert could probably handle most diseases and free/common/low-cost poisons. Then again, I'm giving a lot of credit to the potential community of NPCs to co-operate and such.

If someone was able to take levels in Exemplar I'm sure that would be interesting.