Urgent Request - Need Rules for a Panicked Crowd

[Urlord]

I have an urgent request...

I am running an adventure this weekend where the PCs (all 1st level) are attending a huge festival in a city (i.e., Mardi Gras, Macy's Parade, New Year's Eve in Times Square, etc.).

The setting is a large open market square (about 300' square), with wide avenues around it. Finally, the avenues are bordered by permanent 2-4 story buildings with balconies overlooking the Grand Market. At this particular time, the Grand Market has been cleared of all the normal booths and stalls to make room for all the festival people.

As the much-anticipated Maiden Fest Parade circles the Grand Market, thousands of men, women, and children (4-6 thousand total) watch with glee. As the King and Queen go by, they are standing on a gilded platform atop a huge, magnificent elephant. The sky is blue, the sun is shining, doves are released, pyrotechnics go off... You get it!!!

All the sudden, a Balor demon and it's four servant Marilith demons teleport in, nearby the King and Queen. Alert royal protectors (knights, soldiers, and archers) spring into action. The battle last 10 rounds and I already have descriptions for all ten. The last three round could go one way or the other depending on if the PCs are successful or not.

You see, the PCs learned the true name of the Balor earlier in the adventure. In my game, true names have the power to summon or banish. But, it takes three rounds to invoke them and you have to be within 30' for the banishing part. If the Balor is banished, it's Marilith servants will go with it.

On round 1, the PCs are about 80' from the battle in the middle of the terrified (and panicking) crowd. They have to move against the crowd a total distance of 50' without being knocked down and being trampled. I want it to be suspenseful, with the PCs arriving in range of the Balor on round 6 or 7.

What mechanism would you use to handle:

Movement against the crowd, with the potential of losing ground.
Avoid being knocked down, and if knocked down, how to get back up.
How much trample damage from the crowd if they get knocked down.


Thanks in advance for your ideas.

- Urlord the Wonderful
"Well, at least I see it that way."

[Specter]

What mechanism would you use to handle:

Movement against the crowd, with the potential of losing ground.
Avoid being knocked down, and if knocked down, how to get back up.
How much trample damage from the crowd if they get knocked down.


1. Just make the crowd a space where every foot of movement costs three.

2. You could make everyone save at initiative count 20, as if it were a lair effect. It should be something that's easy for strong characters, and hard for the skinny ones, so a Strenght save with a DC of 14 sounds nice.

3. A warhorse does 2d6+4 damage with his hooves, so that should do.

[PhantomSoul]

1. Just make the crowd a space where every foot of movement costs three.

2. You could make everyone save at initiative count 20, as if it were a lair effect. It should be something that's easy for strong characters, and hard for the skinny ones, so a Strenght save with a DC of 14 sounds nice.

3. A warhorse does 2d6+4 damage with his hooves, so that should do.

Agreed -- though for [3], since it's first-level characters and therefore potentially low HP (2d6+4 = average 11, with a range of 6 to 16; Wizard at 10 Con = 6 hp, and even at 18 would still only be 10 hp), maybe reduce the damage a little or have Dexterity Saving Throws to avoid it once down, and have the potential to get back up before they'd likely be killed too quickly just from crowds.

[Tanarii]

2. You could make everyone save at initiative count 20, as if it were a lair effect. It should be something that's easy for strong characters, and hard for the skinny ones, so a Strenght save with a DC of 14 sounds nice.

3. A warhorse does 2d6+4 damage with his hooves, so that should do.
DC 5 would be more appropriate. And 1d6 (3 damage) would probably be better.

DC 14 means a Str 16 character will be knocked down in 2 rounds.
Then take 11 damage, and die in (at most) 2 rounds.
A Str 8 character will die in one round in 75% of all cases.

If that's the case, 3/4 of the crowd would die from trampling in the first 6 seconds.

[Armored Walrus]

DC 5 would be more appropriate. And 1d6 (3 damage) would probably be better.

DC 14 means a Str 16 character will be knocked down in 2 rounds.
Then take 11 damage, and die in (at most) 2 rounds.
A Str 8 character will die in one round in 75% of all cases.

If that's the case, 3/4 of the crowd would die from trampling in the first 6 seconds.

That's a good point, it would be pretty anti-climactic to face a demon and its minions, only to be trampled to death by the commoners fleeing the fight.

I would also give them the opportunity to create space around them so they can advance more easily and/or remove the risk of being knocked down. If one of them starts spraying the crows with burning hands, for example, the crowd will probably give them space. Hopefully they won't go to that level, but they may come up with something you don't anticipate. Give it a chance to work.

Taking a page from Angry GMs chase scene (http://theangrygm.com/how-to-build-awesome-encounters/) you could also raise the possibility of some of the characters taking to the roofs around the square, avoiding the crowd entirely.

[Tanarii]

That's a good point, it would be pretty anti-climactic to face a demon and its minions, only to be trampled to death by the commoners fleeing the fight.
Plus another thing to consider is whatever mechanical you establish should in theory apply to the rest of the crowd, if only statistically. This isn't required of course, but does give you a good idea of how difficult you're making it, by comparing it to a commoner in the crowd.

DC 5 with 1d6 damage (rolled not static) immediately inflicted on falling would result in 20% of the crowd being knocked down, and 1/3 of those being trampled. So ~6-7% of the crowd is dying every round (6 seconds) due to trampling. That means 50% of the crowd will be trampled to death in the ten rounds.

If the damage only happens if you fail to stand up next round (another DC 5 Str check), that drops by 1/5. So 12.5% of the crowd dies in ten rounds.

Alternately there could be a save or attack roll to do the damage every round. Various ways to fine tune it to be between 50% of crowd dies and 10% of crowd dies from trampling, then use that for the mechanic.

[Cl0001]

Plus another thing to consider is whatever mechanical you establish should in theory apply to the rest of the crowd, if only statistically. This isn't required of course, but does give you a good idea of how difficult you're making it, by comparing it to a commoner in the crowd.

DC 5 with 1d6 damage (rolled not static) immediately inflicted on falling would result in 20% of the crowd being knocked down, and 1/3 of those being trampled. So ~6-7% of the crowd is dying every round (6 seconds) due to trampling. That means 50% of the crowd will be trampled to death in the ten rounds.

If the damage only happens if you fail to stand up next round (another DC 5 Str check), that drops by 1/5. So 12.5% of the crowd dies in ten rounds.

Alternately there could be a save or attack roll to do the damage every round. Various ways to fine tune it to be between 50% of crowd dies and 10% of crowd dies from trampling, then use that for the mechanic.

While I do agree with the DC 5 or take 1d6 damage, I disagree in your assertion that the crowd would have to do this as well. When I read the situation, it sounded to me like the party in running against the flow of people who are afraid of the balor. If you were running with them I doubt you'd have much trouble staying up. I would make it difficult terrain and make the players make a strength saving throw DC 5 or be knocked prone and take 1d4 damage. But keep in mind the characters abilities, if one player was a Goliath barbarian, I seriously doubt people would get in his way, same with a caster who's burning/blowing stuff up.

[Tanarii]

While I do agree with the DC 5 or take 1d6 damage, I disagree in your assertion that the crowd would have to do this as well. When I read the situation, it sounded to me like the party in running against the flow of people who are afraid of the balor. If you were running with them I doubt you'd have much trouble staying up. Okay. My point was thinking about it in terms of 'what happens to a commoner' lets to adjust the mechanic and fine tune it.

For example, you just introduced a rule:
If you move with the crowd, you don't have to make a Strength check.

So how about adding:
You get advantage on the check if you move sideways to the crowd's movement, or try to just stand still and let it go around you.

This means if they try to stop and cast a spell or make an attack or help someone else up (ie give them advantage on their Str check to stand), they get advantage on their check.

Also the OP might want to have areas that explicitly are safe if reached. Behind a statue or fountain or market booth for example. (I'm assuming that since it's happening in a plaza 'take to the rooftops' as was suggested up thread isn't likely to be a thing.)

Edit: on more thought, it might be better to flip the advantage to "if you are not prone and do nothing but move or brace yourself, you get advantage on the check" and make the DC higher. This makes getting up once down, stopping to help someone up, or stopping to cast a spell or attack, very dangerous. Maybe change the DC to 10 and institute this rule. But it also encourages the strong to stop and help the weak that have already gone down ... at some risk.

[fbelanger]

If the Pc are meant to combat the Balor they should be there in a round. Period.

[Unoriginal]

I'd say that crossing a space occupied by the crowd would require a STR or DEX check.

Also, why would the Mariliths disappear? PCs don't know their names, right?

And I'm not sure what's the Balor's goals, here, but how come it take them 10 rounds to do it?

I mean, a Balor and 4 Mariliths can level armies without any real trouble.

[Urlord]

@ Unoriginal - The Mariliths disappear because they were summoned by the Balor and if it is banished back to the Abyss, that summoning connection would be severed.

Great comments to get my brain back in gear on this. Here is what I came up with after reading your posts...

The crowd is like a river moving at speed 20 away from the battle (that is as fast as they can go considering the number of people).
Each Turn, at the end of Initiative Count 20:

If Prone, the creature takes 1d6 Bludgeoning damage. Half damage if they took the Dodge Action.

If Standing, the creature must: (a) Move 20' with the crowd, or (b) Make a STR or DEX Saving Throw and refer to the results below.

Natural 1.... Carried 20' with the crowd, fall Prone and takes 2d6 Bludgeoning damage from trampling.
4 or Less.... Fall Prone in place and takes 1d6 Bludgeoning damage from trampling.
5 to 9....... Fall Prone in place.
10 to 14..... Carried 10' with the crowd, but remain Standing.
15 or More... The creature remains Standing and holds their ground.
Natural 20... A 15+, plus may use Reaction to give a creature within 5' an additional Saving Throw.
..............The 2nd Saving Throw must be used.

ACTION NOTES

Dodge: If Prone, you can curl up in a ball to protect vital areas. Until the start of your next Tun, you have Resistance to damage from Trampling.
Move Through Crowd: The crowd is considered Difficult Terrain, however, any movement CLOSER the battle costs triple instead of double.
Stand Up: Requires a DC 10 STR(Athletics) or DEX(Acrobatics) check and consumes all movement for that round.


Thanks Again,

- Urlord the Wonderful
"Well, at least I see it that way."

[Armored Walrus]

Looks like that'll get you through your session. Come back and let us know if your campaign ends due to death by commoner stampede or death by balor. :P

[Urlord]

Looks like that'll get you through your session. Come back and let us know if your campaign ends due to death by commoner stampede or death by Balor. :P

LOL - The only thing they can do to the Balor is, dismiss it using its True Name.

I play a "No GM Screen" open game, which is why I need house rules like this. Otherwise, I would just narrate what happens and when.
My players may just decide to flee with the crowd, but I think the Paladin in the party will try to dismiss the Balor even if no one else does.

Either way, it is bound to be a hell of a show.

[Chugger]

There's an Adv League module where badguys attack a festival in a town. The chaos is described, and then as round 2 starts the DM reads "From the chaos of the fighting, a cow breaks loose from its barn and begins rampaging the area. It will surely trample and kill a child or little old lady if something isn't done to stop it."

The party is given an option. One party member must devote his/her action to "stopping the cow" - at which point no stupid die rolls are made. The DM says you herd the cow back into its place and lock it in and doubtless save lives. You may not want to do this _every_ round, but then "A little boy in the chaos has picked up a stick and is trying to attack a badguy, which will surely result in his death - unless someone grabs him and returns him to his mother." You get the idea. Rinse and repeat. And don't make them roll. This is designed to give a feeling of chaos and making the party decide who can most sacrifice an action to save innocent victims - and if they let people die instead they lose face or lose renown or in some way must atone for it. Hint heavily that they can't let civilians die like this and come out heroes of the day.

[polymphus]

Personally, I'd just simplify it: the crowd is difficult terrain. Let the real crowd happen in the theatre of the mind.

If a shot doesn't hit because somebody is in difficult terrain, describe the shot going awry and hitting a civilian. Tell your players about the panicking faces, and the hands grabbing them. They are moving at half speed because they charged forward and slammed into a panicking man, and staggered, and had to take a moment to get their feet.

That's the joy of 5e -- it's all about the description.

[Safety Sword]

If the Pc are meant to combat the Balor they should be there in a round. Period.

Why?

The crowd is an environmental hazard, much like a river of lava or a cliff with a strong wind or something. There's no good reason for it to be there one round and totally avoidable the next.

As an aside: PCs messing with Balor demons at Level 1? I usually wait until Level 5 at least :smallamused:

[Kane0]

What mechanism would you use to handle:

Movement against the crowd, with the potential of losing ground.
Avoid being knocked down, and if knocked down, how to get back up.
How much trample damage from the crowd if they get knocked down.



The PCs can attempt a Dex (Acrobatics) or Str (Athletics) check against DC 15 on their turn. If they succeed they can move against the flow of the fleeing crowd as if difficult terrain (half speed). Moving with the crowd requires no check but is still treated as difficult terrain due to the congestion and panic of the crowd.
On initiative count 10 each round the crowd acts, surging away from the source of panic. Any creature caught in the chaos and not moving with the crowd must make a Strength saving throw against DC 15 or be knocked prone. Creatures that start their turn prone must attempt a Dexterity saving throw against DC 15 or take 1d6 damage as they are trampled by terrified peasants.

[Tanarii]

Any creature caught in the chaos and not moving with the crowd must make a Strength saving throw against DC 15 or be knocked prone. Creatures that start their turn prone must attempt a Dexterity saving throw against DC 15 or take 1d6 damage as they are trampled by terrified peasants.That's a 70% chance of knocking down the typical commoner, a 70% chance they'll take damage if they are knocked down, and a 50% chance they'll be killed. So 24% chance of death for any peasant that doesn't, for whatever reason, move with the crowd every round. It's also likely (about 1/3 chance) to kill any non-Str / non-Dex save class in 2 rounds if they don't move with the crowd.

DC 15 or take damage, for multiple rounds, for the entire party, isn't 'sorta dangerous' for 1st level characters. It's 'likely to be fatal'.

[Vogie]

You can steal the skill challenge mechanic from 4e, and have them make various checks to get through the crowd. That may mean a Strength check to not get swept away, Intimidate checks to make the crowd part, et cetera.

[Kane0]

That's a 70% chance of knocking down the typical commoner, a 70% chance they'll take damage if they are knocked down, and a 50% chance they'll be killed. So 24% chance of death for any peasant that doesn't, for whatever reason, move with the crowd every round. It's also likely (about 1/3 chance) to kill any non-Str / non-Dex save class in 2 rounds if they don't move with the crowd.

DC 15 or take damage, for multiple rounds, for the entire party, isn't 'sorta dangerous' for 1st level characters. It's 'likely to be fatal'.

These rules aren't for the commoners, they're for the PCs.

If DC 15 is too tough, reduce to 12 or 10 depending on how hard you want it to be. I just used the standard 'moderate' DC 15 fromt he DMG as a placeholder

[Tanarii]

These rules aren't for the commoners, they're for the PCs.

If DC 15 is too tough, reduce to 12 or 10 depending on how hard you want it to be. I just used the standard 'moderate' DC 15 fromt he DMG as a placeholder
The standard 'moderate' DC from the DMG is quite difficult, even for PCs. That's the point. If you're defaulting to that as a DM you're making things quite difficult on your PCs, unless you're expecting them to only be making checks and saves with high ability score / proficient. Especially if they have to make a check against it every round, for everyone in the part.

Better to default to DC 10 IMO.

[Gorgo]

Maybe also add a charisma check option to get people to move out of your way when you're moving against the crowd? I sort of like the idea of the charismatic bard talking his way through the crowd while the fighter bulls through on strength.

If you want to be extra-realistic, give a bonus/advantage to someone who's following another character through the crowd. Let the wimpy wizard draft in the shadow of the barbarian.