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Fax Celestis
2007-08-11, 11:29 AM
I've asked this to CustServ before, and I've received varying answers--some in frightening ranges.

So, I turn to you, the forum: answer my great and mighty question.

Can spellthieves qualify for feats and PrCs by virtue of their theft abilities?

For instance, a PrC requires "ability to cast spells of 3rd level." Does a spellthief with the Steal Spell (3rd) ability--who can cast third level spells by way of that ability but through no other means--qualify?

Similarly, can a spellthief use his Steal Spell-Like Ability ability to qualify for warlock PrCs by stealing an Eldritch Blast?

Fax Celestis
2007-08-11, 11:38 AM
What this would mean would be that a spellthief could essentially walk into Arcane Trickster at 6th level, by virtue of his class features.

Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment
Any nonlawful.
Skills
Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.
Spells
Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher.
Special
Sneak attack +2d6.Mage Hand isn't normally on his list--but Steal Spell (0th) is. And he doesn't have any natural casting of 3rd or higher, but he can cast 3rd level spells that he can steal from other people.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-08-11, 11:46 AM
Can a creature with a spell-like ability qualify for such a prestige class?
If yes then I think the spellthieves should aswel, otherwise I think they shouldn't.

Purely personally I think they shouldn't be able to, but I can't give a good reason for it.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-11, 11:47 AM
Can a creature with a spell-like ability qualify for such a prestige class?
If yes then I think the spellthieves should aswel, otherwise I think they shouldn't.

Purely personally I think they shouldn't be able to, but I can't give a good reason for it.
Steal Spell doesn't make the stolen spell an SLA, though: it's cast as a spell exactly as if the original caster had actually cast it.

Jasdoif
2007-08-11, 12:01 PM
Steal Spell doesn't make the stolen spell an SLA, though: it's cast as a spell exactly as if the original caster had actually cast it.I think that's the problem right there. You couldn't use a stolen spell to qualify for a prestige class, just like you couldn't use casting a spell from a wand to qualify for one. You need to be able to cast the spell fully under own power.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-11, 12:03 PM
I think that's the problem right there. You couldn't use a stolen spell to qualify for a prestige class, just like you couldn't use casting a spell from a wand to qualify for one. You need to be able to cast the spell fully under own power.

Except according to the FAQ you can use items--a temporary bonus--to qualify for feats and PrCs. How is a temporary theft any different?

Jasdoif
2007-08-11, 12:16 PM
Except according to the FAQ you can use items--a temporary bonus--to qualify for feats and PrCs. How is a temporary theft any different?Such items confer their bonus constantly. It remains as long as the item is worn. I see nothing indicating a limited charge/duration item or ability could be used to qualify.

Overlooking that interpretation on my part, the FAQ also states that you only receive the benefit of the prestige class or feat as long as you qualify for it. If this did allow qualification, you would only get your arcane trickster benefits while you had a mage hand stolen, and a 3rd level spell stolen (until you could cast 3rd level spells normally), wouldn't you?

Raolin_Fenix
2007-08-11, 12:31 PM
Overlooking that interpretation on my part, the FAQ also states that you only receive the benefit of the prestige class or feat as long as you qualify for it. If this did allow qualification, you would only get your arcane trickster benefits while you had a mage hand stolen, and a 3rd level spell stolen (until you could cast 3rd level spells normally), wouldn't you?

I'm not really sure which way I want to go with the original question, but as far as this point goes, I disagree. A Wizard with his Intelligence drained to such a degree that he just isn't smart enough to cast third-level spells anymore wouldn't lose a PrC he has. Might lose the benefits of any Intelligence-requiring feats, but going so far as to nullify five levels in a PrC from a Feeblemind spell? Seems a little overboard to me.

'Course, that's just my opinion. RAW may have something else to say. :P

Fax Celestis
2007-08-11, 12:35 PM
Overlooking that interpretation on my part, the FAQ also states that you only receive the benefit of the prestige class or feat as long as you qualify for it. If this did allow qualification, you would only get your arcane trickster benefits while you had a mage hand stolen, and a 3rd level spell stolen (until you could cast 3rd level spells normally), wouldn't you?

Nope. Tried-and-true, again and again, PrCs only require you to qualify for the first level. There is no clause that states you lose its benefits if you fail to qualify later.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-08-11, 12:46 PM
Steal Spell doesn't make the stolen spell an SLA, though: it's cast as a spell exactly as if the original caster had actually cast it.

I simply figured it was best comparable situation, if someone could "cheat" it's way into a PRC by use of a SLA then a spellthief should be able to do the same IMO.

BTW what's up with the attack of the name stealers, is it a new base class:smalltongue: ?

Jimp
2007-08-11, 12:57 PM
If you did allow it I would say that whenever you use up your stolen spell or ability you loose any benefit from the PrC that it was needed for. For example, if you used your stolen Mage Hand and 3rd level spell that you needed for Arcane Trickster, then you could no longer use any of the abilities from the class until you stole the needed spells again.
It's pretty borderline though.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-08-11, 03:21 PM
If you did allow it I would say that whenever you use up your stolen spell or ability you loose any benefit from the PrC that it was needed for. For example, if you used your stolen Mage Hand and 3rd level spell that you needed for Arcane Trickster, then you could no longer use any of the abilities from the class until you stole the needed spells again.
It's pretty borderline though.

I never saw anything about losing PRC abilities after losing prerequisites, this would mean that if an dwarven defender or arcane archer would be reincarnated as some other race they would suddenly be useless and forget what they have learned, doesn't make much sense does it?
I would personally go for yay or nay a limbo might as well be a nay.

Also, and I admit I'd have to look this up, there are classes that allow you to trade in your old class levels for new class levels, in case of PRCs it might be possible not to qualify anymore for the PRC and still I never seen a mention of the possibility of losing PRC abilities.
edit: then again I don't think there isn't a way to do that, forget about it

PinkysBrain
2007-08-11, 03:31 PM
Nope. Tried-and-true, again and again, PrCs only require you to qualify for the first level. There is no clause that states you lose its benefits if you fail to qualify later.
Well not in the DMG, but there is an infamous paragraph on page 16 in CW which has been repeated in a couple of other splatbooks I believe.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-11, 03:35 PM
Well not in the DMG, but there is an infamous paragraph on page 16 in CW which has been repeated in a couple of other splatbooks I believe.

DMG still remains primary source on PrCs, though.

Look, I want it to qualify, but I don't want the Spellthief to suddenly become the single greatest source of cheese in the entire game.

Starsinger
2007-08-11, 03:38 PM
Is it allowed by the rules? I'm not sure, since technically, yes spellthieves can cast spells of X level. Can they do so whenever? No.

However, does this allow them to qualify for a Prc? I don't see why not. Let's say you used it to qualify for Archmage somehow... You don't have spellslots of high enough level to use most higher arcana, so you can't. Or say, like Fax asked, you use it to qualify for a warlock PrC. It increases your eldritch blast damage by whatever.. but it doesn't give you eldritch blast if you don't have it... So I don't see anything wrong with spell thieves thieving their way into a PrC.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-08-11, 03:52 PM
DMG still remains primary source on PrCs, though.

That may be, but the primary source is not contradicted in this case.
It is even mentioned in the FAQ.


Look, I want it to qualify, but I don't want the Spellthief to suddenly become the single greatest source of cheese in the entire game.


Ignoring RAI, I guess you could make a cheesy argument for qualifying for some prestige classes (like the Arcane Trickster), but as noted above what good is it if you cannot meet the prerequisites continuously and therefore lose your class abilities?

MrNexx
2007-08-11, 03:53 PM
Well, what if it were a bit different.

First of all, the Spellthief is now 7th level, with a cohort. His Cohort is a 5th level wizard. Would that work?

Or what if he's high enough level to cast 3rd level spells, and has a Hand of the Mage?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-08-11, 04:25 PM
Well, what if it were a bit different.

First of all, the Spellthief is now 7th level, with a cohort. His Cohort is a 5th level wizard. Would that work?

If you kept stealing spells from the cohort? Yes, assuming we allowed the cheese in the first place....


Or what if he's high enough level to cast 3rd level spells, and has a Hand of the Mage?

You do not have the ability to cast a spell if you use an item, scroll, wand or puppet.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-11, 04:42 PM
Look, I want it to qualify, but I don't want the Spellthief to suddenly become the single greatest source of cheese in the entire game.
Personally I allow temporary qualification, but use the CW rule that your abilities are just as temporary as your qualification ... it makes sense (except for the few self disqualifying PrCs, but exceptions prove the rule).