Wizard vs Dread Necro

[xyamius]

Fight between the two and the wizard went lich at level 11 the dread necro level 20 both have the same xp which the lich has had the +4 la since level 11 the question is which one wins in a fight and both have no minions. Books must be printed 3.5 no dragon magazine or dungeon and has to be wizards of the coast printed material so no d20 non wizards of the coast source books.

My bet is on the Wizard due to the utility options and spells available since the dread necro has nothing to really stop the wizard that isn't close range. Both for gold have dmg level 20 gold for purchasing gear.

[Jack_McSnatch]

The wizard, no question. The problem isn't even the variety of spells, the problem is that the dread necromancer has literally nothing they can do. All their offensive options are either minionmancy (which you've already ruled out), or negative energy damage, which will only make the wizard more powerful. The only option dread necromancer has is to rebuke, which is kinda lackluster unless he built specifically to rebuke.

[ATHATH]

In medium to high PO, the Wizard wins, no question.

If they're both terribly optimized, the Dread Necromancer has a higher optimization floor (due to having a pre-set spell list) and thus would probably win.

In TO, it all depends on who can say "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu" first (a bit of hyperbole there, but you get what I mean).

[Crake]

The wizard, no question. The problem isn't even the variety of spells, the problem is that the dread necromancer has literally nothing they can do. All their offensive options are either minionmancy (which you've already ruled out), or negative energy damage, which will only make the wizard more powerful. The only option dread necromancer has is to rebuke, which is kinda lackluster unless he built specifically to rebuke.

It's not something you build around, it's something you gear around. And the gear, for a level 20 character, is actually not that hard to collect. A phylactery of undead turning for +4, a talisman of undead mastery for another +4, Rod of defiance drops the wizard's turn resistance by 4, dropping him to effectively 16HD, meaning you need to hit rebuke level 32 to control him, and an optimized turn check (not hard, since dread necro is cha based anyway) gets you the last +4 you need to hit 32HD worth of rebuke. That's without even investing too much, those 3 items are about 21,000gp out of level 20's 700k+ wbl.

[Silva Stormrage]

It's not something you build around, it's something you gear around. And the gear, for a level 20 character, is actually not that hard to collect. A phylactery of undead turning for +4, a talisman of undead mastery for another +4, Rod of defiance drops the wizard's turn resistance by 4, dropping him to effectively 16HD, meaning you need to hit rebuke level 32 to control him, and an optimized turn check (not hard, since dread necro is cha based anyway) gets you the last +4 you need to hit 32HD worth of rebuke. That's without even investing too much, those 3 items are about 21,000gp out of level 20's 700k+ wbl.


To be fair any CL 16 Wizard Lich is probably going to be flat out immune to turn undead or could at the very least celerity out of it.

Unless the DN does something cheesy to expand their spell list (Luck Domain for Miracle for example) or the wizard doesn't prepare properly the wizard should have this.

If both are low to moderate optimization the DN could win by rebuke undead fairly easily.

[Crake]

To be fair any CL 16 Wizard Lich is probably going to be flat out immune to turn undead or could at the very least celerity out of it.

Unless the DN does something cheesy to expand their spell list (Luck Domain for Miracle for example) or the wizard doesn't prepare properly the wizard should have this.

If both are low to moderate optimization the DN could win by rebuke undead fairly easily.

Out of curiosity, how would he make himself immune to turning? And celerity is an immediate action, so if the wizard lost initiative, he wouldn't be able to use it.

[ryu]

Out of curiosity, how would he make himself immune to turning? And celerity is an immediate action, so if the wizard lost initiative, he wouldn't be able to use it.

The simple method of getting around that is to eschew the necessity of initiative by simply never leaving combat. Namely have a permanent but extremely weak minion of any sort dealing a steady stream of damage to you that heal off with any effect granting healing over time. You are never unable to utilize immediate actions and any new attackers must make use of the common rules for entering ongoing combat.

Alternatively cheese your way into accessing foresight a level early. The above is simpler though as it's a trick even a commoner can pull from low levels. He just has less use for it because he lacks immediates and his actions generally suck.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Are we talking a single-classed Dread Necromancer and Wizard, or with PrCs? Because as optimization increases we quickly cross a threshold where the DN grabs Rainbow Servant, Southern Magician, and DMM and goes full Cleric on your ass.

[xyamius]

talking straight both. I think that is a handicap to the wizard since there are so many PRC's that the wizard could go and be even stronger but that was the discussion.

[Crake]

The simple method of getting around that is to eschew the necessity of initiative by simply never leaving combat. Namely have a permanent but extremely weak minion of any sort dealing a steady stream of damage to you that heal off with any effect granting healing over time. You are never unable to utilize immediate actions and any new attackers must make use of the common rules for entering ongoing combat.

Alternatively cheese your way into accessing foresight a level early. The above is simpler though as it's a trick even a commoner can pull from low levels. He just has less use for it because he lacks immediates and his actions generally suck.

That trick is bad and you should feel bad. Better get ready to duck the books that will be thrown at you for even suggesting that at a table.

[Eldariel]

Setup? Get teleported to an arena and duke it out? Is leaving allowed? What about starting distance and obstacles? A 100% contrived situation that can't occur to actual characters, but perhaps a fun though exercise.

Alternatively, they want to kill each other but exist as characters in a gameworld. This is more natural if still a bit contrived. This also places premium on preparation, information gathering and mobility. Frankly, particularly without even a Zombie Dragon mount (minions are literally DN's main plan) DN loses 10 days to Tuesday except through AD: Miracle, which is huge game. The more complexity you add to the setup, the more it favours Wizard and mimics a natural engagement.


As for surprise, there's always Cunning Legacy Weapon, which is totally worth it.

[Deophaun]

Out of curiosity, how would he make himself immune to turning?
He'd need to get access to Life Ward.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Life ward could protect the lich from turning. It would have to be from a scroll or magic item, because it's a 4th-level cleric abjuration. A continuous item of life ward costs 4 * 7 * 2 * 2000 = 112 000 gp. Cost reduction tricks reduce that by 30% at least. Liches already have Craft Wondrous Item, so they should be able to make this item.

A cloak of turn resistance grants +4 turn resistance for 11 000 gp. The Improved Turn Resistance feat grants the same.

[Eldariel]

Life ward could protect the lich from turning. It would have to be from a scroll or magic item, because it's a 4th-level cleric abjuration. A continuous item of life ward costs 4 * 7 * 2 * 2000 = 112 000 gp. Cost reduction tricks reduce that by 30% at least. Liches already have Craft Wondrous Item, so they should be able to make this item.

A cloak of turn resistance grants +4 turn resistance for 11 000 gp. The Improved Turn Resistance feat grants the same.

However, item-based defenses do run the problem of Chained Quickened Greater Dispel Magic doing short work of them (which is probably a good starter anyways). Personal, spellbased protections are generally more durable.

[Vizzerdrix]

Im still stuck on why a DN wouldnt have minions. Minions is wht they DO.

[ExLibrisMortis]

However, item-based defenses do run the problem of Chained Quickened Greater Dispel Magic doing short work of them (which is probably a good starter anyways). Personal, spellbased protections are generally more durable.
True enough, but as a spontaneous caster, Quicken Spell doesn't work for dread necromancers, unless they use a metamagic rod (75 500 gp), in which case they can't use both Chain and Quicken. For some stupid reason, dread necromancers get regular dispel magic as 4th, but greater dispel magic as 5th. It feels like there should be errata for that, but whatever. Point is, they're going to waste a round stripping those buffs, and then the wizard will eat them alive.

Oh, and there are spellblades and stuff. Dread necromancers only get two dispel-type effects, so it's easy to cover both.

[Eldariel]

True enough, but as a spontaneous caster, Quicken Spell doesn't work for dread necromancers, unless they use a metamagic rod (75 500 gp), in which case they can't use both Chain and Quicken. For some stupid reason, dread necromancers get regular dispel magic as 4th, but greater dispel magic as 5th. It feels like there should be errata for that, but whatever. Point is, they're going to waste a round stripping those buffs, and then the wizard will eat them alive.

Oh, and there are spellblades and stuff. Dread necromancers only get two dispel-type effects, so it's easy to cover both.

Sure, but I would assume Rapid Metamagic for spontaneous casters anyways, since Quickening is pretty darn solid. That said, Spellblades are indeed an important consideration: though if the chain starts from items and ends on person, I believe the Blade doesn't protect itself and might be out of commission.

That said, it's not out of the realm of possibility for a Wizard to have Contingency for some Dispels not to mention more mundane things like blocking line of effect. And Wizard is unlikely to not get a chance to at least cast Nerveskitter, which might already shake off being flat-footed and enable free action Contingency to go off.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sure, but I would assume Rapid Metamagic for spontaneous casters anyways, since Quickening is pretty darn solid. That said, Spellblades are indeed an important consideration: though if the chain starts from items and ends on person, I believe the Blade doesn't protect itself and might be out of commission.

That said, it's not out of the realm of possibility for a Wizard to have Contingency for some Dispels not to mention more mundane things like blocking line of effect. And Wizard is unlikely to not get a chance to at least cast Nerveskitter, which might already shake off being flat-footed and enable free action Contingency to go off.
Yeah, there are just too damn many wizard tricks. For every trick the DN pulls to make turning viable, the lich pulls something else that needs to be countered first. At least turning is pretty strong when it does work, so there's something unusual to optimize.

[Deophaun]

Oh, and there are spellblades and stuff. Dread necromancers only get two dispel-type effects, so it's easy to cover both.
Hate to be he who shall not be named, but DNs are Cha-based sponatneous casters: they get knowstones and Drake helms. They have access to any spell they want.

Furthermore, if we're going the DM fiat route with custom magic items, you can do the same with spell research. In which case, Dread Necros don't need those at all; and being fixed list, they don't have to worry about pesky limits on spells known.

[ryu]

That trick is bad and you should feel bad. Better get ready to duck the books that will be thrown at you for even suggesting that at a table.

Considering I have actually done that very thing in the past and ended up not only playing and using it, but actually innovating combat in the world I'll not need any such protection.

[Melcar]

Wizard 9/10 times! No doubt, no diggity!

[Crake]

He'd need to get access to Life Ward.

life ward protects against turn undead, not rebuke undead. So sure, a radiant servant of pelor wouldn't be able to dust him, but a dread necromancer could still command him.

[Deophaun]

life ward protects against turn undead, not rebuke undead. So sure, a radiant servant of pelor wouldn't be able to dust him, but a dread necromancer could still command him.
But you asked for immunity to turning, not rebuking. :smallbiggrin:

[ExLibrisMortis]

life ward protects against turn undead, not rebuke undead. So sure, a radiant servant of pelor wouldn't be able to dust him, but a dread necromancer could still command him.
Okay, death ward then. Protects from "any negative energy effects".

[Eldariel]

Honestly, the Lich could just have permanent Polymorph Any Object into a non-Undead chassis (though admittedly Lich-form has some perks and Turn/Command might not really be the first thing a +4 Turn Resistance caster worries about, so this is probably not the reason to do that) - while immune, he can probably lower his own immunity.

Though given the mind control clause in Protection, simple Magic Circle against Whatever may suffice to block Command.

[Zanos]

This is a spell contest, and the wizard 1-8 list is stronger than the DN 1-9 list.

[Deophaun]

This is a spell contest, and the wizard 1-8 list is stronger than the DN 1-9 list.
Except, again, we aren't limited to Wiz/DN lists. Ring of thaumaturgy(?I think that's the one that lets you cast a spell into it so that you can cast it as an arcane spell later) +drake helm = any spell in the game. If custom magic items are in, runestaves are a cheaper option. At that point, I'm giving it to the caster that can use 9ths. You want genesis? DN can genesis. You want infinite gates? DN can infinite gate. Wish? Miracle? DN can do either.

Heck, miracle can be downright devastating if the deity in question has a portfolio that would include a lich's phylactery.

[Eldariel]

Aye, if full access to other lists is allowed, DN wins by a landslide. Shapechange alone can replicate basically anything a Wizard 16 can do because the spell is so hilariously broken. To not even mention Gate, Ice Assassin, Mind Rape, etc. With just their native lists, Wizard should win rather effortlessly, however.

[Zanos]

Except, again, we aren't limited to Wiz/DN lists. Ring of thaumaturgy(?I think that's the one that lets you cast a spell into it so that you can cast it as an arcane spell later) +drake helm = any spell in the game. If custom magic items are in, runestaves are a cheaper option. At that point, I'm giving it to the caster that can use 9ths. You want genesis? DN can genesis. You want infinite gates? DN can infinite gate. Wish? Miracle? DN can do either.

Heck, miracle can be downright devastating if the deity in question has a portfolio that would include a lich's phylactery.
If you want to go that far into TO class levels don't matter, and you can just buy a candle of invocation or ring of three wishes and be done with the entire exercise.

[Deophaun]

If you want to go that far into TO...
Give me a break. That's nowhere near TO.

[Blackhawk748]

Im still stuck on why a DN wouldnt have minions. Minions is wht they DO.

I'm in the same boat. No minions rather cripples the DAN unless he's running around with a bunch of Runestaves and Knowstones, which makes him less of a DN and more of a bad Sorc

[Zanos]

Give me a break. That's nowhere near TO.
Infinite gates is kind of TO.

[Kaiwen]

Infinite gates is kind of TO.

I think he/she/whatever meant knowstones/drake helm, not gate.

[Aldrakan]

The simple method of getting around that is to eschew the necessity of initiative by simply never leaving combat. Namely have a permanent but extremely weak minion of any sort dealing a steady stream of damage to you that heal off with any effect granting healing over time. You are never unable to utilize immediate actions and any new attackers must make use of the common rules for entering ongoing combat.

Alternatively cheese your way into accessing foresight a level early. The above is simpler though as it's a trick even a commoner can pull from low levels. He just has less use for it because he lacks immediates and his actions generally suck.

Leaving all other considerations aside, it's been established that neither of them have minions.

[RedMage125]

It's not something you build around, it's something you gear around. And the gear, for a level 20 character, is actually not that hard to collect. A phylactery of undead turning for +4, a talisman of undead mastery for another +4, Rod of defiance drops the wizard's turn resistance by 4, dropping him to effectively 16HD, meaning you need to hit rebuke level 32 to control him, and an optimized turn check (not hard, since dread necro is cha based anyway) gets you the last +4 you need to hit 32HD worth of rebuke. That's without even investing too much, those 3 items are about 21,000gp out of level 20's 700k+ wbl.
That would be my answer, too.


To be fair any CL 16 Wizard Lich is probably going to be flat out immune to turn undead or could at the very least celerity out of it.
How would he "celerity out of it"? There isn't even a save against turn/rebuking. It's not a spell, and not an action that explicitly requires Concentration to maintain. If the DN makes his 32-HD rebuke attempt, the wizard lich is now his obedient servant.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How would he "celerity out of it"? There isn't even a save against turn/rebuking. It's not a spell, and not an action that explicitly requires Concentration to maintain. If the DN makes his 32-HD rebuke attempt, the wizard lich is now his obedient servant.
Presumably, he means that you can use celerity to avoid being turned. Once you're turned, celerity can do nothing.

Do note that it takes a standard action to command a turned (commanded) undead to do anything.