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Saroman

2017-08-27, 07:42 PM

Hello friends... im about to start a campaign... that have a very house ruled system of character creation xD ( ALL BOOKS ALLOWED ) ( MAGIC ITENS ARE VERY GENEROUS )

Every atribute starts at 10 and i still have 30 points to spend... the points are 1 for 1. max 18.

There is a house ruled Half Dragon that im interested in playing... ( its a very powerfull race dont be surprised xD )
RACE DETAILS AT THE BOTTOM

So there is still 3 classes available... Bard Cleric and Druid TBH im not the biggest fan of "Completely" game breaking classes xD So im favoring the bard here...

And i want some help of you guys... to make a decent bard... i think with that amount of points i can make a "do it all bard"... a caster two weapon fighter and buffer... or am i wrong?

There is also dragonfire inspiration that can be good since im already half dragon...

Anyway i need help :D too long i dont play 3.5...

Any advice or build to make a broken but plausible character is welcome :D

Armor Class: Natural +4

Special Attacks: breath weapon deals 6d8 points of damage

Special Qualities: like the half dragon

Abilities: Str +4 Con +2 Int +2 Cha +2

LA: 0

Darrin

2017-08-27, 08:53 PM

And i want some help of you guys... to make a decent bard... i think with that amount of points i can make a "do it all bard"... a caster two weapon fighter and buffer... or am i wrong?

If you want a TWF Gish, 9th level spells, and Dragonfire Inspiration...

Bard 8/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight +8

That gets you at least Inspire Courage +2, +1 from inspirational boost (Spell Compendium), and swap Suggestion for Song of the H0eart (Eberron Campaign Setting) for another +1. Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium) can get it up to +5. Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds) can double that to 10d6 damage.

If you want to add Tome of Battle maneuvers...

Bard 8/Crusader 1/JPM 1/Sublime Chord 1/JPM +9

Armor Class: Natural +4

Special Attacks: breath weapon deals 6d8 points of damage

Special Qualities: like the half dragon

Abilities: Str +4 Con +2 Int +2 Cha +2

LA: 0

I am confused by this. Is there a cost or a downside? What's to prevent every single PC (or even every eligible creature) from being a half-dragon?

Saroman

2017-08-28, 06:14 AM

If you want a TWF Gish, 9th level spells, and Dragonfire Inspiration...

Bard 8/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight +8

That gets you at least Inspire Courage +2, +1 from inspirational boost (Spell Compendium), and swap Suggestion for Song of the H0eart (Eberron Campaign Setting) for another +1. Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium) can get it up to +5. Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds) can double that to 10d6 damage.

If you want to add Tome of Battle maneuvers...

Bard 8/Crusader 1/JPM 1/Sublime Chord 1/JPM +9

I am confused by this. Is there a cost or a downside? What's to prevent every single PC (or even every eligible creature) from being a half-dragon?

What is preventing that is the fact that the DM created a bunch of other races that are equaly OP or even more xD

About your idea, i liked the first one the TWF o.o seems cool :D

Any suggestion about a bard that specializes in Spells Buffs And Songs? I heard about Sublime Chord and Virtuoso for that, but my knowledge is very limited, thats why im asking for help :(

I liked the first idea but it also seems that im no longer a bard xD

Grod_The_Giant

2017-08-28, 07:34 AM

For spells, your key PrCs are Lyric Thaumaturge (Can get in at 6th, gives you one extra spell/known and spell/day of each level) and Sublime Chord (can get in at 10th, gives you a new spellcasting progression that takes you from 4th to 9ths). Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/Sublime Chord 10 would be a simple and extremely strong spellcaster.

For Bardic Music, the big focus is usually on Inspire Courage optimization, as that's what gets the most boosts. Darrin breaks that down pretty well, but the key element is usually Dragonfire Inspiration feat from Dragon Magic, which turns the +X attack and damage boost into a +xd6 damage boost. Otherwise, useful PrCs include Virtuoso (can get in at 8th, loses a caster level but gives you a bunch of new songs), Stormsinger (can get in at 6th, full casting and a bunch of wind-and-lightning based songs), and Heartfire Fanner (can get in at 8th, full casting and great support songs).

For physical fighting, you usually use Inspire Courage optimization to crank up your damage, and the Snowflake Wardance feat to use your Cha to attack. Gish-type PrCs like Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, and Knight Phantom go well.

-------

The classic "Bard plus" build is probably Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8, progressing Sublime Chord casting instead of Bard. That gets you about a medium BAB progression throughout (enough for fighting, if you want to), up to 9th level spellcasting off the Bard and Sorcerer lists, and plenty of music. And, importantly for you, plenty of Bardyness, since all the PrCs you're using progress your music. You could potentially replace the first ten levels with Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 5 or Bard 5/Stormsinger 5, if you want more magical pop at the expense of some Inspire Courage.

Darrin

2017-08-28, 09:45 AM

What is preventing that is the fact that the DM created a bunch of other races that are equaly OP or even more xD

Huh. Ok, well then, go half-dragon and pick a dragon that has the [sonic] type, such as Emerald (Monster Manual II). This means your Dragonfire Inspiration damage will be [sonic].

I liked the first idea but it also seems that im no longer a bard xD

Let me address this first. If you think the only way to be a bard is to take 20 levels in bard, then... there are many, many, many other ways to play a more effective bard. Many of those ways will involve taking a lot of prestige classes or might not even take more than 4 bard levels.

You play a bard by singing while your friends are fighting, mixing some spellcasting with some fighting and some skill use, and handling most of the "Party Face" duties: talking to NPCs, bartering with shopkeepers, using Bluff/Diplomacy to move the plot along, etc. If that's what you're doing, then it doesn't matter how many bard levels you have in your build.

In 3rd edition, bards are a lot stronger when you add certain prestige classes. Sublime Chord in particular turns the bard from a "half-caster" into a full-on planet-smashing sorcerer with access to 9th level wizard/sorcerer spells. You said you wanted a bard that focused on buffing and spellcasting, so the best way to do that is to add a Sublime Chord dip at level 11. This adds 4th through 9th level spells, and you can cherry-pick the best buffing spells from two different spell lists (bard and wiz/sor).

You also said you wanted to do some TWF, so that sounds like you want a "gish" (old first-edition term for a githyanki fighter/magic-user). The best way to do that is with a fighter dip, get into Eldritch Knight, and then finish off Sublime Chord with Eldritch Knight levels. This PrC gives you a big chunk of "+1 BAB and +1 spellcasting" levels, so you finish off with BAB +17 and 9th level sorcerer spells.

About your idea, i liked the first one the TWF o.o seems cool :D

Here's a more detailed breakdown of a sample build:

Race: Human/Emerald Half-Dragon
1) Bard 1. Feat: Melodic Casting. Bonus: Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic).
2) Fighter 1. Bonus: TWF.
3) Bard 2. Feat: *Somatic Weaponry (Complete Mage).
4) Bard 3.
5) Bard 4. Inspire Courage +1.
6) Bard 5. Feat: Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn).
7) Bard 6. Music of Creation ACF: Replace "Suggestion" with Song of the Heart feat (Eberron Campaign Setting p. 34).
8) Bard 7.
9) Eldritch Knight 1. Feat: Words of Creation. Bonus: Improved TWF.
10) Bard 8. Inspire Courage +2.
11) Sublime Chord 1.
12) Sublime Chord 2. Feat: Minor Shapeshift (Complete Mage).
13) Eldritch Knight 2.
14) Eldritch Knight 3.
15) Eldritch Knight 4. Feat: Greater TWF.
16) Eldritch Knight 5.
17) Eldritch Knight 6.
18) Eldritch Knight 7. Feat: Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior).
19) Eldritch Knight 8.
20) Eldritch Knight 9.

Note on Somatic Weaponry: This may not be the best feat to take here, but I'm guessing if I told you to TWF with a quarterstaff or a greatsword/unarmed strike, this wouldn't fit your "image" of a TWF bard. You need to be able to get a hand free to cast spells with somatic components. The easiest way to do this is to use a two-handed weapon, since you can take your hand off of it as a free action and then re-grip it as a free action after you cast a spell. Quarterstaff is the best weapon for this, as it doesn't cost you any feats to use. Greatsword + armor spikes or greatsword + unarmed strikes also works very well, although the latter will require spending a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike. If this still fits your image of what you want your bard to look like while he's fighting, then consider doing that instead of taking Somatic Weaponry. However, the other issue is quarterstaff, greatsword + armor spikes, or greatsword + unarmed strike doesn't work with Snowflake Wardance without jumping through some additional hoops. Normally I don't recommend Snowflake Wardance, as I consider it a "trap" option, and I prefer taking Arcane Strike instead. But I'm guessing the typical longsword/shortsword TWF combo was probably what you were imagining.

Any suggestion about a bard that specializes in Spells Buffs And Songs? I heard about Sublime Chord and Virtuoso for that, but my knowledge is very limited, thats why im asking for help :(

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22314198&postcount=29) covers my general advice on "gish" spell selection. Since you'll be choosing mostly from the Sorcerer list once you get into Sublime Chord, take a look at the 4th through 9th spells. You will also have access to bard-only spells, and some of those are available before sorcerers get them. Give me a few days and I might be able to re-jigger my gish advice to a bard/sublime chord gish with a focus on buffing.

However, there are a couple bard spells that I can recommend off the top of my head:

1st:

Instant of Power (Forge of War). Immediate action, give any ally a +4 enhancement bonus on their next attack, save, or damage roll.

Ray of Hope (Book of Exalted Deeds). Pick one ally within close range, +2 morale bonus on attacks, saves, skill checks, and ability checks. Lasts 1 round/CL.

Saroman

2017-08-28, 03:34 PM

ExLibrisMortis

2017-08-28, 03:58 PM

Hiro Quester

2017-08-28, 03:59 PM

All your knowledge gave me even more doubts xD so i will ask them to see if someone wanna discuss about it.

1 - Can i use dragonfire inspiration and Inspire courage at the same time ( do they stack? ) and still fight using them? How?

2 - Why people go for the Virtuoso prestige class when multiclassing? It does not seem that good o.o why not go all the way lyric taumaturge or sublime chord...?

3 - How Can a good bard archer be made? still with the dragonfire inspiration and 9th spells...?

1: yes. Start one in the first round, the other the next round.

Note: Lingering Song feat is useful for making all musics you use last 10 rounds, after you switch to a new song.

The Harmonize spell (Races of Stone) is good for enabling you to start a bardic music as a move action.

I'm also a fan of making your ancestor a pyroclastic dragon (damage is half fire, half sonic).

2: Sublime Chord 1 starts the new casting progression that grants 9th level spells --and make sure irresistible dance is one of your 6th levels spells --this is one Sublime Chords get super-early).

SC 2 is great for the bardic music that adds to the CL of your next spell. After that it's meh. Another class that advances casting is usually better.

I'm personally a huge fan of the Heartfire Fanner PrC (Dragon 314) to advance Sublime Chord casting. Its grants all the standard bardic musics, without requiring bard levels, just perform ranks. It also gives you new bardic musics that allows your party to each choose a fighter bonus feat (to two or three!) they get temporary use of. When I played a bard/SC/Heartfire Fanner I got a lot of requests for that one from my party.

It rocked so much I got myself a wand of Heroics to UMD and cast on myself, to grant such feats to myself too--the bardic music only grants them two others (Heroics is good for adding the next feats you need in the TWF line, for instance).

I'd also put in a plug for Abjurant Champion as a PrC that advances casting, Full BAB, and grants a free extend on all abjuration spells. Getting a custom runetaff of low-level sorcerer abjuration spells to cast each morning is a good option to take advantage of this.

3: I have never played an archer bard, but pretty good, from what I hear. A bit more feat intensive (but the heroics spell is your friend here, if you can UMD a wand).

BTW, for more advice than we can dispense here, I totally recommend JoshuaD's Bard Handbook (http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/) for solid and well-researched advice on playing a bard well, and for the different options we are proposing here.

Darrin

2017-08-28, 04:45 PM

1 - Can i use dragonfire inspiration and Inspire courage at the same time ( do they stack? ) and still fight using them? How?

ExLibrisMortis and Hiro Quester already covered this one.

2 - Why people go for the Virtuoso prestige class when multiclassing? It does not seem that good o.o why not go all the way lyric taumaturge or sublime chord...?

There aren't a lot of PrCs that advance both bardic music and spellcasting. Virtuoso is useful for getting your Inspire Courage bonus up to +4, and if you take the first level before Sublime Chord, you don't lose any more caster levels. In 3E, losing even one caster level can be an unforgivable sin, as this can delay or prevent you from getting 9th level spells. Thus, you see Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 suggested as essentially a "Bardic Sorcerer".

3 - How Can a good bard archer be made? still with the dragonfire inspiration and 9th spells...?

Dragonfire Inspiration makes *fantastic* archers, because it's not really limited by range. It's one of the few ways to crank archery damage up to Ubercharger levels.

Sneak attack/sudden strike/skirmish damage is usually limited to 30', which makes archery kinda pointless, as all your opponents are within a single move action of smacking you in the face with sharp objects. Dragonfire Inspiration is only limited by how far away your allies can hear you, so you can get full bonus damage even at 300' away. Heck, you can get Dragonfire Inspiration damage out to *1d10* miles with an alphorn (Song & Silence p. 42).

Saroman

2017-08-28, 07:57 PM

- In case i activate only 1 of dragonfire inspiration or inspire courage... can i maintain one of them while i fight?

- I notice you all mentioning bard 8 virtuoso 2 sublime chord 2 and virtuoso 8... but i did some research... it seems that virtuoso lose a level of spellcaster and sublime chord has something called bardic lock, that prevents me to dip only 2 levels on it...

- Any notable and useful itens i should know for bards? Archer, TWF and Music related?

- Darrin told me to get emerald dragon for the sonic damage... any particular reason for it?

- My ideas by now is Bard/Virtuoso/Sublime Chord Archer or TWF... aiming for Max IC and 9th spells... is there any "MUST HAVE" feats that i should be aware? ( Im probly gonna try to fit Leadership for role play purposes )

- Should i worry about lyric thaumaturge for that "Sonic Might" thing for the build im pretending? How useful is it?

Vizzerdrix

2017-08-28, 08:24 PM

With your high cha, a +1 stunning whipdagger may prove useful to you.

darkbuu_1

2017-08-29, 12:43 AM

Bardic lock isn't mentioned in the class in Complete Arcane or the official errata. It seems like someone got annoyed at people just using the class of 9th level spells and then abandioning it so they added that little restriction.

The one site I saw the ability on didn't look particularly official, so don't worry about ignoring it.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-08-29, 07:14 AM

- In case i activate only 1 of dragonfire inspiration or inspire courage... can i maintain of them while i fight
As long as it doesn't require Concentration (which Inspire Courage does not), you can... but you can't cast spells or activate magic items unless you also have the Melodic Casting feat.

- I notice you all mentioning bard 8 virtuoso 2 sublime chord 2 and virtuoso 8... but i did some research... it seems that virtuoso lose a level of spellcaster and sublime chord has something called bardic lock, that prevents me to dip only 2 levels on it...
That particular build loses the caster level before Sublime Chord comes online and essentially re-starts the progression, so there's no significant or long-term downside. "Bardic Lock," as darkbuu mentioned, isn't a thing-- if you're looking at "Therafim," be aware that it's just someone's homebrew website, not an official resource. Don't trust it. (Also, don't use it, it's probably illegal)

- Any notable and useful itens i should know for bards? Archer, TWF and Music related?

Badge of Valor and Vest of Legend both help with Inspire Courage
Crystal Echoblade and Bow of Song both power up while you're performing.

- Darrin told me to get emerald dragon for the sonic damage... any particular reason for it?
If you have a specific dragon heritage, Dragonfire Inspiration does that sort of damage, instead of fire. Lots of things resist fire damage, but basically nothing resists sonic. (A Force Dragon is even better, since force damage affects insubstantial creatures automatically).

- My ideas by now is Bard/Virtuoso/Sublime Chord Archer or TWF... aiming for Max IC and 9th spells... is there any "MUST HAVE" feats that i should be aware? ( Im probly gonna try to fit Leadership for role play purposes )

Melodic Casting lets you cast spells while maintaining your music (though it lasts 5 rounds from when you stop, so it's not like you need the feat)
Captivating Melody lets you burn bardic music uses to boost your DCs.
Metamagic Song lets you burn bardic music uses when applying metamagic, instead of spell level adjustments. You can't use it to increase the effective level past your normal highest-level slots, though, so it's not as good as Divine Metamagic.
Words of Creation doubles your Inspire Courage bonus
Point-Blank, Precise, and Rapid Shot for archery; TWF and a pair of Gloves of The Balanced Hand should be plenty of melee. Maybe throw in Snowflake Wardance.

- Should i worry about lyric thaumaturge for that "Sonic Might" thing for the build im pretending? How useful is it?
Meh, there aren't that many good sonic damage-dealing spells. It's great for extra spells and spell slots, not the extra damage.

Darrin

2017-08-29, 07:28 AM

- I notice you all mentioning bard 8 virtuoso 2 sublime chord 2 and virtuoso 8... but i did some research... it seems that virtuoso lose a level of spellcaster and sublime chord has something called bardic lock, that prevents me to dip only 2 levels on it...

The text in Complete Adventurer has no suck "Bardic Lock" restriction. If you're using the Therafim wiki for information on Sublime Chord, then it looks like they added "Bardic Lock" as a house rule. It's not an official rule.

- Any notable and useful itens i should know for bards? Archer, TWF and Music related?

Shax's Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)) and my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15034740&postcount=11) already has a lot of details on magic items, so you might want to peruse that first. Here's a post on magic items for gishes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22298391&postcount=5), although that was more oriented towards melee/TWF than archery.

- Darrin told me to get emerald dragon for the sonic damage... any particular reason for it?

There are five energy types, and many creatures have built-in resistance or immunity to them. [Fire] is the most common resistance/immunity, so it's highly likely you'll run into a lot of fire-type creatures that are resistant or immune to your Dragonfire Inspiration damage. [Cold] is the next most common, followed by [electricity] and [acid]. [Sonic] is the least common, so it's much less likely you're going to encounter creatures with resistance/immunity to it.

Emerald dragons are in MM2, and are common enough that your DM has probably heard of them before. There are some other dragons with [sonic] affinity, but they're pretty obscure, and if you don't have the Draconomicon then it might be difficult to get stats on them.

In Races of the Dragon, there's a table on page 102 that lists all the true dragons and their respective energy affinity. There are a few examples of [force] damage on there, which is even rarer than [sonic] damage. So if your DM is ok with it, you could claim ancestry from an Amethyst, Force, or Tarterian Dragon.

The wrinkle there is that [force] isn't actually an energy type in the 3.5 rules... although it was in 3.0, but some designers get confused and just assume that [force] damage works the same way as any other type of energy damage. We don't need to get down into the weeds on the differences, but if you want to discuss it with the DM and he's ok with treating it as energy damage, then [force] is better than [sonic].

If you don't want to go that overboard on optimization, then picking any of the other energy types for fluff reasons is perfectly acceptable. In fact, unless you run into outright energy immunity, you'll probably be doing so much damage with Dragonfire Inspiration that when you do encounter creatures with the correct energy resistance, you may not even notice that they have it.

- My ideas by now is Bard/Virtuoso/Sublime Chord Archer or TWF... aiming for Max IC and 9th spells... is there any "MUST HAVE" feats that i should be aware? ( Im probly gonna try to fit Leadership for role play purposes )

Charming the Arrow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a). (It's not exactly a MUST HAVE, as you still need a high enough Dex to qualify for certain ranged feats, but it lets you focus on buffing Cha.)

- Should i worry about lyric thaumaturge for that "Sonic Might" thing for the build im pretending? How useful is it?

The problem with Lyric Thaumaturge is it requires 9 ranks of Perform, so in most cases you can't get into it until you've got at least 6 Bard levels. Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4 gets you into Sublime Chord, but you miss out on Sonic Might... and you kinda *have* to take Sublime Chord at 11th, because if you delay you miss out on a 9th level spell slot.

There are a couple work-arounds, but they involve the retraining rules (from PHBII) or using what's called the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (DCFS). If your DM allows retraining, then there's two feats in Cityscape called Favored and Primary Contact, with the latter increasing your skill ranks in a particular skill by +1. This allows a Bard 5 to get into Lyric Thaumaturge, and then you can get into Sublime Chord with Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 5. You have to spend your 1st and 3rd level feat slots to do it... and then after you get into Lyric Thaumaturge, you can retrain Favored/Primary Contact into something else. Or if you're happy with your feats the way they are, you could just leave 'em that way and enjoy being a Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/Sublime Chord 10.

The other work-around is the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (DCFS). Once you get access to 8th level spells (or if you want to pay another spellcaster to cast them on you), you can cast embrace the dark chaos (from Fiendish Codex I) to swap one of your existing feats for an Abyssal Heritor feat. You then cast shun the dark chaos (same book) to swap your Abyssal Heritor feat for any other feat. It costs 500 XP per feat, but at higher levels this is trivial.

Now, as far as Sonic Might goes... there aren't actually a large number of [sonic] spells, so it's not as useful as you might think at first glance. Or rather, you have a very limited number of Spells Known, and if you want to take a bunch of [sonic] spells, then it's usually at the expense of dropping something really useful, like haste or glitterdust, so the opportunity costs can be pretty high. The other concern is it becomes a lot more useful once you start adding metamagic feats, such as Energy Substitution and Heighten Spell, but there usually aren't enough feat slots to make it all work. If you're going to focus on archery, you may not have a lot of room for metamagic feats, or would have to taken them so late in the build that you never get to use them. There's also an annoying issue with spontaneous casters adding metamagic to spells, which increases the casting time to a full-round action. However, many DMs will houserule this away or give you a break on taking Rapid Spellcasting.

So... I really like Sonic Might, but getting all the feats into the build to make it work well can get really complicated. There's also the issue that it's primarily a "blasting" strategy, and you said you wanted to focus on buffing. If you fill all your slots with [sonic] spells, you won't have much room for buffing.

Saroman

2017-08-29, 09:28 AM

- I will pick Emerald Dragon for RP purposes... sonic as a bard seems cool :P What is its special qualities, immunities? What a Emerald Half Dragon would get? I cant find that information... Do i get its breath weapon with the chance to make ppl deaf????

- Charming the Arrow is awesome, shame it requires you to be FEY :/

- Darrin do you happen by any chance to have a list of magic itens like those for archers?

- How the runestaff would work for a spontaneous caster like a bard... it does not seem to work with spontaneous casters :P or maybe i did not understand how the item actualy work...

Eldariel

2017-08-29, 09:52 AM

I quite like Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 8. Simple, elegant, quite strong. The build gets Imbue Arrow and full 9th level casting to Imbue with 16 BAB. If you use a Fey-race (Unseelie Fey (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/unseeliefey.shtml) [DR304] and Half-Fey [Fiend Folio] templates are the easiest options, Unseelie Fey particularly at LA +0), you can use Charm the Arrow as above, but that's not strictly necessary. You can pick up Divine Might [Complete Divine]-feat to use with your Turn Undead attempts from Sacred Exorcist to get Cha + 3 times Cha to damage daily, which is pretty nice on a Cha-based build. Then you can add to this full casting and the ability to fire a single Imbued arrow each turn with a spell like Antimagic Field, Silence, Black Tentacles or the like, and you're good to go. Imbue Arrow also makes all your AOE spells have insane range tying it all neatly together.

Of course, Bard 8 leaves you at a bit lower Inspire Courage total than if you ran e.g. Heartfire Fanner (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/general/heartfirefanner.shtml) (or Virtuoso, but the lost caster level and low BAB is a pain) to progress Sublime Chord and Bard, but Sacred Exorcist giving you Turn Undead for Divine Might is quite sweet. And you still get +2 Inspire base, +1 Song of the Heart, +1 Inspirational Boost, +1 Vest of Legends, doubled for Words of Creation. It's not amazing but it's not terrible. Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4/Heartfire Fanner 4 or SC 2/SE 3/HF 5 if you're allowed to use fractional BAB does work though. You only need 1 level of Sacred Exorcist for Turn Undead.

Saroman

2017-08-29, 12:55 PM

Its also a cool idea, but im set on the classes i guess... it will be Sublime Chord Bard and Virtuoso, and if i find some way to add Lyric Thamaturge i will... :D But im having trouble with that.

Eldariel

2017-08-29, 01:04 PM

Its also a cool idea, but im set on the classes i guess... it will be Sublime Chord Bard and Virtuoso, and if i find some way to add Lyric Thamaturge i will... :D But im having trouble with that.

Lyric Thaumaturge doesn't unfortunately really fit into Sublime Chord builds very well unless you use early entry Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 5 and then do something like Sublime Chord 5/Heartfire Fanner 5, which loses you some song progression. I personally prefer Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. This picks up all the best songs in Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness and Song of Arcane Power, and the other cool stuff. Note though, with all those ½ BAB classes you might want to take Arcane Disciple [Complete Divine] to acquire Divine Power spell (takes 14 Wisdom) if you want to rain death on people with your bow more efficiently. Song is nice but by 20, your lack of BAB will be rather significant (Bard 9/SC 2/Virtuoso 9 has 11 BAB or 12 by Fractional, while Bard 8/SC 2/Virtuoso 10 has 12 either way) and that might hurt your To Hit if you wanna be shooting your bow. Virtuoso being a ½ BAB class hurts a bit there.

Darrin

2017-08-29, 02:55 PM

- I will pick Emerald Dragon for RP purposes... sonic as a bard seems cool :P What is its special qualities, immunities? What a Emerald Half Dragon would get? I cant find that information... Do i get its breath weapon with the chance to make ppl deaf????

An Emerald Half-Dragon would normally get a 30' cone of [sonic] energy and immunity to [sonic] damage (as per Races of the Dragon p. 70), but I can't tell if your DM's "half-dragon" racial option includes those abilities.

- Charming the Arrow is awesome, shame it requires you to be FEY :/

Whoops. Sorry, I missed that. As Eldariel mentioned, adding the Half-Fey or Unseelie Fey template will change your type to fey.

- Darrin do you happen by any chance to have a list of magic itens like those for archers?

Not today... I got spells. Maybe magic items tomorrow, but it's probably going to look a lot like the gish list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22298391&postcount=5) I mentioned earlier.

- How the runestaff would work for a spontaneous caster like a bard... it does not seem to work with spontaneous casters :P or maybe i did not understand how the item actualy work...

I'm not sure where you got that idea... a custom runestaff is one of the most useful magic items a spontaneous spellcaster can get. Essentially they add 2-5 arcane spells to their spells known, so long as those spells appear on their spell list.

Ideally, what you want is to take the Ancestral Relic feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) at 3rd level, make it a custom runestaff that is also an elvencraft longbow (Races of the Wild) with two wand chambers (or possibly three, if you consider the quarterstaff and longbow to be three separate weapons). By sacrificing loot to your runestaff, you can reconfigure the five spells it contains whenever you have time off. The elvencraft longbow can be used as a quarterstaff (two-handed or as a double-weapon) or as a longbow interchangeably, and it doesn't interfere with your somatic hand gestures.

Some recommended spells for an archer-based Sublime Chord:

0th (Bard)

Candlelight (Ghostwalk Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20031225a)). This isn't exactly a replacement for light or dancing lights as it's not nearly as bright as a torch (only 5' radius), but it does have a much better duration: 1 hour/CL.

Detect Magic (Core). AKA detect loot.

Ghost Sound (Core). When used with invisibility effects, you can trick enemies into pinpointing the wrong square by creating false "footstep" sounds. Can also be used for comedic effects: applause, rimshots, crickets chirping, whoopie cushion, etc.

Prestidigitation (Core). Not called minor wish for nothing. Print out this page (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707) and keep it handy.

Read Magic (Core). You need this to decipher scrolls, at least until you get your Spellcraft up high enough that you can use that instead.

Summon Instrument (Core). If you dig into Song & Silence or Complete Adventurer, there are several instruments that give you a bonus in certain situations. Playing the Harmonica for "folk of humble station" gives you a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Gather Information checks for 1d6 hours after the performance. Playing a Shawm in an "aristocratic setting" provides a similar bonus against more refined audiences. A Whistle-Pipe grants a +5 circumstance bonus on countersong attempts. Playing a Harp increases by one the number of creatures you can affect with your fascinate or inspire greatness abilities. A Mandolin increases your attack bonus from Inspire Courage by +1, which becomes an additional +1d6 damage when using Dragonfire Inspiration. You could also use this spell to summon instruments that could be used as weapons. Sadly, we can't drop pipe organs on our enemies, but if you pump your Strength up to obscene levels, a "handbell" could weigh hundreds if not thousands of pounds. There are also a couple instruments that are intended to be used as weapons, such as the Steel Flute (Secrets of Sarlona) or the almighty Lute-Bow (Cityscape Web Enhancement: Urban Tools (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a)).

1st (Bard)

Bonerattle (Ghostwalk). Bards don't get a lot of direct-damage spells at 1st level. Only 1d4/CL (5d4 max) and Fort save for half, but the spell description for what this does is really *creepy*.

Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium). Increases your Inspire Courage bonus by +1. Swift action to cast, although if you're having problems with conflicting swift actions during your turn, you can cast this as a standard action by using the Mobile Spellcasting feat or by readying a swift action to trigger after your turn ends.

Instant Diversion (Races of the Dragon): Swift action, lesser version of mirror image. Only lasts one round and doesn't create as many duplicates, but even with a 1st-level wand that's still a 50% miss chance in a pinch.

Instant of Power (Forge of War). Immediate action, give any ally a +4 enhancement bonus on their next attack, save, or damage roll. Always, always, always have this spell ready to cast in a wand chamber.

Invisibility, Swift (Spell Compendium). Swift action, lasts one round. You can use this spell either offensively, allowing you to attack as an invisible opponent (+2 attack bonus, target is denied their Dex bonus), or defensively after you're done attacking, rendering you invisible until your next turn starts.

Master's Touch (Spell Compendium). Saves you the trouble of taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Also, if I've got the encumbrance for it, I love packing a few orc shotputs (A&EG) for throwing a 2d6 ball of metal into my enemy's face.

Ray of Hope (Book of Exalted Deeds). Pick one ally within close range, +2 morale bonus on attacks, saves, skill checks, and ability checks. Lasts 1 round/CL.

Unseen Servant (Core). "Jeeves" gives you an extra set of actions every turn, so long as none of those actions involve an attack roll. Mostly used to pick things up or drop things in certain squares, smokesticks, liquid ice, razor ice powder, caltrops, marbles, etc. Try and get your hands on a Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c), so you can cast this at will. For a more expansive list of what this spell can do, see this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8235936&postcount=8).

2nd (Bard)

Alter Self (Core). Long duration, different movement modes, combat options, social engineering. A lot of utility is packed into this spell.

Cloud of Bewilderment (Spell Compendium). Save-or-Lose spell similar to a stinking cloud, but a 10' cube. Failing a save vs. nausea generally takes a creature completely out of the fight.

Deceptive Facade (Complete Mage). This is one of the few lower-level spells in 3.5 that allows you to cast a glamer over an existing object or creature. This can be used to cause a weapon to look like something innocent, or completely change the appearance of another creature. But wait, you say, isn't that what minor image is for? And I would say no, that's a figment, and you cannot cast those on another object/creature. Anyway, bards get it a level before wizards/sorcerers get it, and it's a good spell for "social engineering" shenanigans.

Glitterdust (Core). Very popular debuff, essentially an area-effect "Save or Lose" (SoL) spell, but it also counters creatures using concealment or stealth tactics. If you want to get pedantic, the "outlining" effect isn't worded exactly the same as faerie fire, but if your DM is reasonable he should be willing to treat the two effects as interchangeable.

Ice Darts (Frostburn). One of the few decent direct-damage spells that bards get. Up to five darts, ranged touch attack, no save, no SR. Very useful when you need to "tag" multiple targets at once, such as multiple mirror images.

Sonic Weapon (Spell Compendium). Adds +1d6 [sonic] damage to a weapon. There are a few similar spells that add energy damage this way, but this is the only one available to bards. Works on bows as well as melee weapons, and is a good spell to have in a wand chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape) or Glyph Seal (1000 GP, Magic Item Compendium).

Summon Swarm (Core). This spell does a little bit of everything: battlefield control (10' x 10' block that no creature wants to get near), direct-damage (1d6 swarm damage), save-or-lose (save vs. nausea), and possibly a debuff (wounding/disease/poison). You don't have a lot of control over who the swarm attacks, but you can summon it on top of other creatures, and you can skip the concentration requirement by casting sonorous hum (Spell Compendium) first.

3rd (Bard)

Alter Fortune (PHBII). It's hard to tell when exactly you will need this spell, but when that moment does come along, it can mean the difference between life and death. This spell causes the target to immediately reroll a die roll, so it can be used either offensively or defensively.

Charm Monster (Core). Everybody loves a good Heel-Face Turn.

Dispel Magic (Core). Way too useful to leave this one out. Strips spell effects off of opponents, cancels ongoing spell effects, counters enemy spellcasters, and can negate/bypass certain magical traps or terrain features.

Glibness (Core). Essentially an Alternate Reality Can-Opener. If you can imagine it, no matter how silly or stupid it might be, this spell allows you to convince someone that it's true.

Haste (Core). A party favorite and quintessential buff spell. You're going to spend a staggering amount of your 3rd-level spell slots on this spell.

4th (Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard)

Black Tentacles (Core). Or as I like to call it, Evard's hentai collection. This spell is an encounter-ender for anything that can't beat a grapple check equal to your caster level +8.

Break Enchantment (Core). Where dispel magic falls short, this spell can pick up the slack. Counters enchantments, transmutations, petrification, and cursed magic items.

Freedom of Movement (Core). Wizard/sorcerers don't get this spell, but bards do. This is the ultimate trump card if anything tries to grapple you, as there's no counter for it other than dispelling it.

Invisibility, Greater (Core). The quintessential "I can stab you but you can't stab me" spell.

Melf's Slumber Arrows (Complete Mage). Since anything that falls asleep in D&D is generally only a round away from being coup de grace'd, this spell turns arrow attacks into a save-or-die (SoD) effect. Spell text and errata says this should be a Will save, but the best part is it affects creatures up to 15 HD, which is 5HD better than deep slumber. Another nice little perk is even if your enemy makes the Will save, they are fatigued for an hour (-2 Str/Dex), although the spell doesn't say if multiple arrows cause exhaustion.

Polymorph (Core). A bit of a bookkeeping chore, but well worth it if you're willing to go book-diving for the best forms. Even if you're restricted to Core, this spell is a huge game-changer.

Revelation (Dragons of Faerun). Only lasts 1 round, but if you need it, early access to true seeing.

Ruin Delver's Fortune (Spell Compendium). Use this immediate-action spell to leverage your Charisma bonus on a saving throw, counter a poison effect, evade an area-effect, pick up immunity to fear, or "soak" an attack with a bunch of temporary HPs.

Serpent Arrow (Champions of Ruin). Turns up to 8 arrows into tiny vipers, which then bite your opponent when they hit. This means they take poison damage (1d6 Con), but the Fort save DC is pathetically low (DC 11). Even after they hit/miss, the vipers stick around to attack your opponent for a while (10 min/CL), which would be much more impressive if they had more than 1 HP. I'm not sure if this spell is worth a 4th level spell slot, but it looks really cool!

5th (Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard)

Arcane Fusion (Complete Mage). Cast two spells at once as a standard action, doubling the rate at which you can get your buff spells out there.

Dispel Magic, Greater (Core). Make Dispel Great Again.

Draconic Polymoprh (Spell Compendium). Essentially the same as boring vanillia polymorph except you get Str +8 and Con +2.

Enlarge Person, Greater (Spell Compendium). As the 1st-level spell, a great meatbag buff, but now lasts 1 hour/CL.

Evacuation Rune (Complete Scoundrel). Adds a swift-action teleport to your repertoire. Cast this rune on a thrown weapon or an object your unseen servant can drop off somewhere, and it opens up some interesting tactical options.

Fiendform (Spell Compendium). Opens up a variety of outsider forms along with their SLAs, Extraordinary abilities, and Supernatural abilities. Since it also changes your type to outsider, you can stack on another polymorph to get into even more interesting forms, such as an Arrow Demon.

Mislead (Core). Bards get this a level earlier than sorcerers/wizards. Works like greater invisibility, but also creates a duplicate "decoy" to draw attention away from your invisible self.

6th (Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard)

Animate Objects (Core). Why do sorcerers/wizards not get this spell? Have the designers not seen Fantasia? Even more annoying, the combat effectiveness of the objects you get out of this spell doesn't really measure up to a 6th level spell slot... but despite that, it's still immensely satisying to watch your enemies get beaten to death by furniture.

Irresistable Dance (Core). No-save touch spell that either takes an enemy completely out of combat, or they become a helpless pinata that the rest of the party smashes into a bloody smear over the next couple of rounds.

Shallantha's Delicate Disk (Lost Empires of Faerun). Creates a spell-storing ceramic disk for any spell up to 5th level, which can be broken or thrown to release the spell effect.

Starmantle (Book of Exalted Deeds). Destroys any mundane weapons that touch you, and gives you a Ref save DC 15 to take half damage from any magical weapons. This is a touch spell, so you can cast it on others.

7th (Sorcerer/Wizard)

Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic). Spellcasting while holding down the "fast forward" button. Combining this with arcane fusion for "ludicrous speed".

Arrow of Bone (Spell Compendium). I am not so impressed with this spell. It's a "Save or Die" (SoD), but it has a 10-minute casting time, you have to hit with a normal ranged attack, and the spell is wasted if you miss. Finger of death is a Core spell at the same level, and it's a much better spell: autohits without an attack roll, slightly better damage if the target makes the Fort save. But it's an archery-related spell so I threw it in this list.

Eladrin Form (Book of Exalted Deeds). Incorporeal form with fly 150' (perfect) speed. You can still cast spells, but are much harder to hit.

Energy Absorption (Complete Mage). Energy resistance to all five energy types, lasts 1 hour/CL, and you have the option to convert one energy-based attack into healing.

Kiss of Draconic Defiance (Dragon Magic). Hostile spellcasters have to make a Fort save or lose the spell they are casting. Also, you can discharge this spell to automatically counterspell any spell 5th level or lower.

8th (Sorcerer/Wizard)

Arcane Fusion, Greater (Complete Mage). Cast two spells, 4th level or lower and 7th level or lower, at the same time. Combine with arcane spellsurge to CAST ALL THE THINGS.

Dreaded Form of the Eye Tyrant (Complete Mage). Turn into a beholder as a swift action, and you can use each eye ray at least once.

Polymorph Any Object (Core). Among other things, permanently change your form.

Prismatic Bow (Complete Mage). Essentially the same effects as a prismatic spray, except you get to shoot each color into your enemy's face.

9th (Sorcerer/Wizard)

Astral Projection (Core). Create a team of stunt doubles from the astral plane to do all the dangerous "adventuring" work.

Shapechange (Core). Usually at the top of nearly every "Broken Spells" list.

Time Stop (Core). Finally get all your buffs up on the first round!

Saroman

2017-08-29, 03:58 PM

Well my DM wont allow Templates... any way to get this feat ( Charming the Arrow ) and still be this half dragon? I dont think so...

That list of spells is AMAZING! Thanks a lot... first draft? Its not complete?

Well if you can or have the time for the archer magic itens i will be glad :D i will go the magic and bow way :D

I understood the runestaff now :P Sorry for the bad english...

ZamielVanWeber

2017-08-29, 04:51 PM

Does that version of half-dragon change your race? If so you cannot take charming the arrow at all. Otherwise killoren (Races of the Wild) and duskLing (Magic of Incarnum) are LA +0 fey races.

Saroman

2017-08-30, 06:46 AM

Grod_The_Giant

2017-08-30, 07:02 AM

Virtuoso has a better chassis than Sublime Chord, particularly its BAB. You'll need that, as an archer.

ExLibrisMortis

2017-08-30, 07:08 AM

Archers mainly need a +1 splitting force (elvencraft) composite (long)bow, and some bonus damage per hit. You can add the enchantments over time, starting with a masterwork elvencraft longbow, then adding +1, then the other two whenever you want (splitting offers higher raw damage, force bypasses damage reduction).

Eldariel

2017-08-30, 07:43 AM

I have until tomorrow to finish my character xD

I have decided to go for Bard, Sublime Chord and Virtuoso, just didnt decide if i will max sublime chord or virtuoso ( Toughts? ) and i will go for archery... ( Any list of good archer magic itens i should pay attention to? )

I was thinking... is there any other way to be able to Imbue Arrows besides Arcane Archer? Cause Arcane archer will cost me spells progression and you must be an elf :P

No, Imbue Arrow is unique but there's a somewhat similar, if less powerful ability as a +1 metamagic in PHBII as Smiting Spell. It can't carry AOE effects though. However, as you can take Arcane Archer before Sublime Chord, it doesn't actually cost you spells in the long run since Sublime Chord starts out with its own progression. You'll miss out on Bard 9 and Bard 10, but you'll still get full Sublime Chord 10 casting with 3rd level Bard-spells, and you can just take Practiced Spellcaster to make up for the lost caster level essentially having full spell access in spite of missing out on 2 caster levels. Essentially, the beauty of Sublime Chord is that any levels you take before 11 don't matter far as your total spell progression goes as long as you hit 3rd level spells somehow.

My Archery Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2892.0) is far from complete but it strives to offer the various magic item enhancements for arrows and bows at least. I haven't gotten to covering most of the other stuff though and the assessment of some things like Brilliant Energy and Blood Seeking is a bit too low (Brilliant Energy actually allows you to shoot through almost any walls at any distance which is kinda awesome). Other than that, Bunko's Bargain Basement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445114-quot-Bunko-s-Bargain-Basement-Magic-Items-That-Are-a-Steal!-quot-(from-Wizards-forum)) and Lists of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) (though mind, your spells can replicate most things and you should prefer spells to magic items as spells are "free" character resources to you - use your magic items to mostly make your spells and Bard Song better). Far as Bard-specific stuff, Dictum_Mortum's Bard Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.fi/2011/08/bards-handbook.html) and JoshuaD's New Bard Handbook (http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/) are great resources with some overlap; JoshuaD's is more comprehensive but not entirely so.

As an Archer, I have to draw your attention to spells specifically related to Archery:
Greater Shadow Conjuration [PHB] - Allows replication of Arrowsplit [Champions of Ruin] (other Arrow-spells from the book are Transmutation, sadly), an amazing spell for increasing your DPS particularly if you can affect multiple arrows, as with Chain Spell.
Arrow of Bone [Spell Compendium] - Makes an arrow force Fort-save vs. death. As above, Chain for frightening power (to chain Touch-range spells, you first need to give them range through e.g. Ocular Spell [Lords of Madness] or Reach Spell [Complete Divine] though).
Minor/Major Creation [PHB] - Create plant-based poisons like Black Lotus Extract, poison each of your arrows, rain fort-savey death on your enemies.
Brilliant Energy Blade/Aura [Spell Compendium] - Make weapons Brilliant Energy. This allows making your bow able to fire through walls and such as desired, while also ignoring enemy armor. Though beware, you can't damage non-living enemies at all with Brilliant Energy so know what you're fighting before you use it.

Saroman

2017-08-30, 08:23 AM

No, Imbue Arrow is unique but there's a somewhat similar, if less powerful ability as a +1 metamagic in PHBII as Smiting Spell. It can't carry AOE effects though. However, as you can take Arcane Archer before Sublime Chord, it doesn't actually cost you spells in the long run since Sublime Chord starts out with its own progression. You'll miss out on Bard 9 and Bard 10, but you'll still get full Sublime Chord 10 casting with 3rd level Bard-spells, and you can just take Practiced Spellcaster to make up for the lost caster level essentially having full spell access in spite of missing out on 2 caster levels. Essentially, the beauty of Sublime Chord is that any levels you take before 11 don't matter far as your total spell progression goes as long as you hit 3rd level spells somehow.

As an Archer, I have to draw your attention to spells specifically related to Archery:
Greater Shadow Conjuration [PHB] - Allows replication of Arrowsplit [Champions of Ruin] (other Arrow-spells from the book are Transmutation, sadly), an amazing spell for increasing your DPS particularly if you can affect multiple arrows, as with Chain Spell.
Arrow of Bone [Spell Compendium] - Makes an arrow force Fort-save vs. death. As above, Chain for frightening power (to chain Touch-range spells, you first need to give them range through e.g. Ocular Spell [Lords of Madness] or Reach Spell [Complete Divine] though).
Minor/Major Creation [PHB] - Create plant-based poisons like Black Lotus Extract, poison each of your arrows, rain fort-savey death on your enemies.
Brilliant Energy Blade/Aura [Spell Compendium] - Make weapons Brilliant Energy. This allows making your bow able to fire through walls and such as desired, while also ignoring enemy armor. Though beware, you can't damage non-living enemies at all with Brilliant Energy so know what you're fighting before you use it.

That was very enlightening Eldariel! I see... its amazing i can still choose arcane archer and not lose any spells :D

- But... can i pick Arcane Archer... and not be an elf? Bcuz im already a half dragon... i dont know how could i get Arcane Archer being an Half Dragon...

- I noticed the Smiting Spell feat seems EXACTLY as Imbue Arrow, isnt it? Except it adds the +1 slot due to metamagic... Or is there any other difference i missed? Maybe i should just take the feat if theres no other way?

Darrin

2017-08-30, 08:25 AM

That list of spells is AMAZING! Thanks a lot... first draft? Its not complete?

Mostly complete. I may fiddle with it over the next few months or so. I'm not entirely happy with it, as it doesn't really have a lot of archery-related spells in it. But then, most of those are either ranger-only or low-level sor/wiz spells that bards don't have access to. Which might suggest that Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 could be worth it to grab Spell Secret: add a 1st and 2nd level sor/wiz spell to your spells known. You could grab blade of blood and wings of cover that way.

Well if you can or have the time for the archer magic itens i will be glad :D i will go the magic and bow way :D

Ok, this is mostly just the gish list I mentioned earlier with some bard-specific items added.

Head:

Headband of the Lorebinder (1600 GP, MIC). +4 sacred bonus on bardic knowledge checks. Bardic knowledge is one of the best abilities to unlock DM "Clue-By-Fours". Whenever you get stuck with a dead-end or an impenetrable puzzle, put on your headband and start asking the DM a bunch of really off-the-wall questions.

Headband of Conscious Effort (2000 GP, MIC). Replace a Fort save with a Concentration check, essentially Moment of Perfect Mind 1/day. Aside from having a high Concentration check, you can't auto-fail on a '1'.

Circlet of Mages (5000 GP, MIC). Multiple pearls of power in a single slot.

Phylactery of Change (11200 GP, A&EG). All-day polymorph up to 7HD.

Circlet of Rapid Casting (15000 GP, MIC). Cast your lower-level buffs as swift actions.

Face:

Artificer's Monacle (1500 GP, MIC). Free identify.

Spellsight Spectacles (2500 GP, MIC). +5 bonus when using UMD/Spellcraft on scrolls. UMD is in your wheelhouse, and you're likely to wind up with any scrolls the other PCs can't cast, so make sure you've got a pair of these somewhere in your haversack.

Third Eye Clarity (3000 GP, MIC). Your "Get Out of Daze Free" Card. If you prefer a stronger offense over defense, Third Eye Surge (2100 GP) is also nice.

Throat:

Chronocharm of the Uncaring Archmage (500 GP, MIC). 1/day cast a full-round spell as a standard action. Get that first summon off quickly. You can add a Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker and Grand Master (500 GP each) to the same slot.

Badge of Valor (1200 GP, MIC). *MUST GET*: Activate this badge as an immediate action to increase your Inspire Courage bonus by +1.

Enduring Amulet (1500 GP, MIC). The continuous endure elements is nice, although you can get that with an armor crystal (500 GP, MIC) or Travel Cloak (1200 GP, MoF). The immediate-action fire/cold resistance 10 is also pretty darned useful.

Scarab or Aradros (1500 GP, Weapons of Legacy). Don't bother with the ritual stuff. +1 resistance bonus and also +1 on dispel and counterspell checks.

Amulet of Tears (2300 GP, MIC). Spellcasters tend to be squishy. Don't be squishy.

Shoulders:

Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000 GP, MIC). A good "starter" cloak, add resistance/enhancement bonuses as funds allow. As with the Enduring Amulet, activate some a la carte energy resistance as an immediate action.

Travel Cloak (1200 GP, Magic of Faerun). Continuous endure elements against cold, free food/drink, and converts into a one-person tent.

Shadow Cloak (5500 GP, Drow of the Underdark). +1 deflection bonus, and "Abrupt Jaunt" 3/day.

Transposer Cloak (6000 GP, MIC). Swift-action teleport lets you swap positions with an ally up to 30' away 3/day. Very nifty way to get into (or out of) melee quickly.

Arms:

Armband of Elusive Action (800 GP, MIC). This is for when you cast defensively and blow your Concentration check. There's no attunement requirement, so if you need this more than 1/day, buy more armbands.

Bracers of Lightning (11000 GP, MIC). Swift action to activate, but there's no daily limit, and all your melee and ranged attacks gain the Shock property (+1d6 electricity damage).

Hands:

Arcanist's Gloves (500 GP, MIC). You probably won't keep these for very long, but a good way to squeeze another couple rounds of duration out of a 1st-level spell slot.

Gloves of the Starry Sky (1100 GP, MIC). Ok, so blasting isn't the most effective strategy... but pelting your opponents with a swarm of magic missiles is really, really satisfying. These gloves lets you do that without cluttering up your 1st-level spell slots with direct damage spells.

Glove of the Master Strategist (3600 GP, Ghostwalk). Great way to get a hand free for spellcasting, or switch out a weapon for a wand/rod/staff. Same functionality as a Glove of Storing, but at a much cheaper price. Also, check with the DM if the 1/day true strike is command-activated or use-activated.

Rings:

Ring of the Diamond Mind, Novice (3000 GP, Tome of Battle). Only 1/encounter, but gets you access to Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, or Mind Over Body: shore up that one save you're not so good at. Also, Insightful Strike has no prereqs, so you can turn that Concentration check into pure damage.

Stormfire Ring (4000 GP, MIC). Not necessarily a "gish" item, but one of my favorite magic items: 25d6 autohit damage, no save, and counters invisibility/concealment.

Ring of Spell-Battle (12000 GP, MIC). Absolute lifesaver. Also, how often do you get to re-target your enemy's spells? Well, actually... once per day!

Waist:

Healing Belt (750 GP, MIC). Way too cheap for what it does. Essentially an "Are You an Adventurer?" Membership Card.

Stone Dragon Belt, Novice (3000 GP, Tome of Battle). This is mostly to pick up the Mountain Hammer maneuver, the Swiss Army Chainsaw of Dungeon Redecorating.

Belt of Wide Earth (8000 GP, MIC). 2/day swap a 5th level spell for teleport, which is an immensely useful utility spell, but not something you need for day-to-day combat operations, which are more likely to rely on the various short-range dimension-foo effects. This is more of an emergency escape plan: *bamf* back to your base, grab the artifact/spell you forgot to bring, *bamf* back to the BBEG to finish him off. For wizards, this belt frees up your 5th-level slots for something more interesting, while sorcerers don't have to dedicate one of their 5th-level "spells known" to an "I don't want to waste my time traveling" spell.

Belt of Battle (12000 GP, MIC). Oh, like an extra standard or full-round action couldn't possibly be useful... yeah, you want this.

Torso:

Dispelling Cord (1000 GP, MIC). +2 on dispel checks 5/day.

Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (2500 GP, MIC). Mostly useful for defensive casting, but the +5 bonus applies to *any* Concentration check, including Diamond Mind maneuvers.

Vest of Legends (16000 GP, DMGII). Increases your effective bard level by 5 for your bardic music abilities, including Inspire Courage.

Body:

Kimono of Storing (4400 GP/20000 GP, Oriental Adventures). This item doesn't specify what slot it occupies, but it's similar to a robe. You may be able to talk the DM into treating it as a Torso item. There's a price discrepancy... if you have access to Dragon #318, then the price was changed to 20K (to match the Gloves of Storing x2). If you don't have Dragon #318, then this is a steal at 4400 GP. Works like a Glove of Storing/Glove of the Master Strategist, except you can use both sleeves to swap an item.

Eldariel

2017-08-30, 08:37 AM

That was very enlightening Eldariel! I see... its amazing i can still choose arcane archer and not lose any spells :D

- But... can i pick Arcane Archer... and not be an elf? Bcuz im already a half dragon... i dont know how could i get Arcane Archer being an Half Dragon...

Well, by default, if you were e.g. a Star Elf (+2 Cha, -2 Dex) Half-Dragon... I mean, if you're a Half-Dragon, you're Half-somethingelse too. Normal Half-Dragon is a template so this works and dragons can easily breed with elves so no reason this isn't possible, but talk with your DM.

- I noticed the Smiting Spell feat seems EXACTLY as Imbue Arrow, isnt it? Except it adds the +1 slot due to metamagic... Or is there any other difference i missed? Maybe i should just take the feat if theres no other way?

Very different. Smiting Spell only works for touch spells, Imbue Arrow area spells. The latter is much more useful generally.

Darrin

2017-08-30, 09:14 AM

- But... can i pick Arcane Archer... and not be an elf? Bcuz im already a half dragon... i dont know how could i get Arcane Archer being an Half Dragon...

Arcane Archer has a racial requirement. I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics of adding a template, but even though a template can change your type, that doesn't mean it changes your race. I believe a half-dragon elf is still considered an "elf" for the purposes of race, even though he now has the dragon type.

Changing your type also gives you the (Augmented Humanoid) subtype. I've never been entirely clear on what exactly that does... it's unclear if it still makes you vulnerable to humanoid-only spells. I think it's mostly a bookkeeping thing... a reminder of your original type?

- I noticed the Smiting Spell feat seems EXACTLY as Imbue Arrow, isnt it? Except it adds the +1 slot due to metamagic... Or is there any other difference i missed? Maybe i should just take the feat if theres no other way?

One of the problems with Imbue Arrow is most of the area-effect spells that are eligible to be imbued already have pretty decent range, usually medium or long. So using the bow's range isn't really much of an advantage. Another problem is you're likely adding an attack roll, which includes a chance of missing, to a spell that didn't have an attack roll to begin with: you just picked a spot and the spell happens there, with no risk that it misses or scatters somewhere else. So you may just be making what was already a pretty reliable spell a lot worse.

Smiting Spell is more useful because there are a lot of touch-range spells that now have a range of several hundred feet. It goes very well with Metamagic Song (Races of Stone), which lets you spend daily uses of bardic music to offset the level adjustment from metamagic feats. However, you need at least two metamagic feats to get Metamagic Song, so you could pick up Energy Substitution after Smiting Spell if you like. Applying metamagic to spontaneous spells will still increase the casting time, unfortunately. To avoid that, you may need to pick up Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage).

So many feats... so few feat slots. =(

Saroman

2017-08-30, 09:31 AM

Darrin

2017-08-30, 09:49 AM

Sorry to ask but why would i get energy substitution? If in the example build you give me, you do not have access to sonic might

Switching energy damage to [sonic] is useful outside of using Sonic Might, and it enhances the "Emerald Dragon" theme.

But the real reason is I *hate* metamagic that increases the spell level. I very rarely play high-level spellcasters, so a metamagic level adjustment of even +1 means the spell is now too high for me to cast with my available spell slots. So I tend to focus on metamatic that has either +0 or +1 level adjustment.

If I have to pick up a metamatic feat, I usually start with Sudden Extend, because I'd rather have one extended spell per day that I *know* I can cast than a theoretical number of extended spells I can't cast because I don't have high enough spell slots for them. However, the Sudden metamagic feats aren't so popular on the forums.

The second metamagic feat I pick up is usually Sculpt Spell (Complete Arcane) because four 10' cubes is pure *awesomesauce*, particularly if your DM lets them overlap (quadruple damage!). I should have probably recommended that one as a second metamagic feat for Metamagic Song instead of Energy Substitution.

Typically, I try to use Midnight Metamagic (from Magic of Incarnum) to offset the cost of using Sculpt Spell, but Metamagic Song should work really well for you here, as you've got plenty of bardic music uses from Bard 8/Virtuoso 10, and you should have enough higher-level spell slots from Sublime Chord.

Eldariel

2017-08-30, 10:08 AM

Arcane Archer has a racial requirement. I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics of adding a template, but even though a template can change your type, that doesn't mean it changes your race. I believe a half-dragon elf is still considered an "elf" for the purposes of race, even though he now has the dragon type.

Changing your type also gives you the (Augmented Humanoid) subtype. I've never been entirely clear on what exactly that does... it's unclear if it still makes you vulnerable to humanoid-only spells. I think it's mostly a bookkeeping thing... a reminder of your original type?

You could also take 3 levels in Ruathar [Races of the Wild] and request to make that qualify you as an Elf. The class also grants Longbow Proficiency, which is nice. But pure DM purview - by RAW Ruathar accomplishes nothing of the sort while Stoneblessed [Dwarf/Gnome/Goliath equivalent] does.

As for "Augmented", it just means you have the traits of your current type but the features of your old type. As per here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#augmentedSubtype). No language suggests you'd be considered your old type in any regard other than that. That is to say, the racial HD grants numbers based on the original (augmented) type while the traits are of the new type.

One of the problems with Imbue Arrow is most of the area-effect spells that are eligible to be imbued already have pretty decent range, usually medium or long. So using the bow's range isn't really much of an advantage. Another problem is you're likely adding an attack roll, which includes a chance of missing, to a spell that didn't have an attack roll to begin with: you just picked a spot and the spell happens there, with no risk that it misses or scatters somewhere else. So you may just be making what was already a pretty reliable spell a lot worse.

Smiting Spell is more useful because there are a lot of touch-range spells that now have a range of several hundred feet. It goes very well with Metamagic Song (Races of Stone), which lets you spend daily uses of bardic music to offset the level adjustment from metamagic feats. However, you need at least two metamagic feats to get Metamagic Song, so you could pick up Energy Substitution after Smiting Spell if you like. Applying metamagic to spontaneous spells will still increase the casting time, unfortunately. To avoid that, you may need to pick up Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage).

So many feats... so few feat slots. =(

There are few really nice spells such as personal emanations (e.g. Antimagic Field) for Imbue Arrow, that you couldn't cast outside your person otherwise. Those are really, really strong. Also, you can combine stuff: Arrow of Bone + Brilliant Energy + Imbued X allows casting an area spell through any amount of walls (you'll have to locate your opponent through e.g. Mindsight [50 mile range for a familiar Shapechanged into Formian Queen] or Scrying or such) while also forcing a Fort-save vs. death. And you can combine that with Quickened True Strike or such, and if your Bow is also Seeking and Blood-Seeking you practically only miss on a 1. Being able to fire AOE effects 3000+ feet away through any amount of obstacles has a lot of wonderful implications.

Also, combining Imbue Arrow with CC spells allows you to hurt an enemy while debuffing the other enemies; you're essentially adding damage and carrier effects (you could fire a Black Lotus Extract-covered Arrow of Bone for a couple of Fort-saves and then add Arrowsplit to multiply the number of hits and effects) to annihilate the target you hit while also inconveniencing or debuffing the whole enemy formation with brutal effects like Antimagic Field, Black Tentacles (or variants), etc. Other interesting carrier effects include adding e.g. Born of Three Thunders to (Energy Substitutioned) Flame Arrow forcing saves vs. stun & knockdown. Thanks to spells you can get a lot out of the single arrow.

EDIT: And then there's the whole matter of if the arrow keeps the spell effect centered. If it does it's even more awesomesauce since the enemy needs to pull the arrow out to even be able to get out of the AMF or whatever you shot at them (enemies without magic just aren't very dangerous). If it doesn't and just uses the initial location of the arrow, that's also fine - you can combine it with narrow spaces or movement limiting instantaneous spells such as Wall of Stone, Wall of Force or their ilk to ensure the enemy remains in the field. You can also combine Widen Spell with this setup. Metamagic Rods, Circlet of Rapid Casting, items adding spells to your spell list (Drake Helm, Runestaff, etc.) help a lot with managing the feat load. You can also use Metamagic Storm [Complete Mage] magical location for an extra metamagic feat and wing the rest. If you wish to use Chain Arrow of Bone/Arrowsplit though, you do need to pick either Ocular Spell or Reach Spell, which you can then combine with Rod of Chain Spell (or the feat itself, but Ocular Arrow of Bone is a 9th level spell).

Also note that by RAW Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow allows you to cast any spell as a standard action. This can be quite broken as there are spells such as Erupt (https://dndtools.net/spells/serpent-kingdoms--24/erupt--3253/) [Serpent Kingdoms] with very long cast times can be cast instantaneously and focused on the arrow. This makes Erupt pretty ridiculous but you don't have to use this to make Imbue Arrow worth it (just simple stuff, Grease, Glitterdust, etc is plenty). It's also worth noting, nothing stops you from combining Imbue Arrow with Smiting Spell for maxing out spells per arrow!

If your DM rules that Imbued spell gets cast once per each arrow (which you can make quite a few of with Arrowsplit (which you can also metamagic with Empower Spell/Maximize Spell), Splitting bow and company), you can deal insane damage with any area damage spells getting cast ~6+ times per Imbue.

Saroman

2017-08-30, 03:23 PM

You could also take 3 levels in Ruathar [Races of the Wild] and request to make that qualify you as an Elf. The class also grants Longbow Proficiency, which is nice. But pure DM purview - by RAW Ruathar accomplishes nothing of the sort while Stoneblessed [Dwarf/Gnome/Goliath equivalent] does.

As for "Augmented", it just means you have the traits of your current type but the features of your old type. As per here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#augmentedSubtype). No language suggests you'd be considered your old type in any regard other than that. That is to say, the racial HD grants numbers based on the original (augmented) type while the traits are of the new type.

There are few really nice spells such as personal emanations (e.g. Antimagic Field) for Imbue Arrow, that you couldn't cast outside your person otherwise. Those are really, really strong. Also, you can combine stuff: Arrow of Bone + Brilliant Energy + Imbued X allows casting an area spell through any amount of walls (you'll have to locate your opponent through e.g. Mindsight [50 mile range for a familiar Shapechanged into Formian Queen] or Scrying or such) while also forcing a Fort-save vs. death. And you can combine that with Quickened True Strike or such, and if your Bow is also Seeking and Blood-Seeking you practically only miss on a 1. Being able to fire AOE effects 3000+ feet away through any amount of obstacles has a lot of wonderful implications.

Also, combining Imbue Arrow with CC spells allows you to hurt an enemy while debuffing the other enemies; you're essentially adding damage and carrier effects (you could fire a Black Lotus Extract-covered Arrow of Bone for a couple of Fort-saves and then add Arrowsplit to multiply the number of hits and effects) to annihilate the target you hit while also inconveniencing or debuffing the whole enemy formation with brutal effects like Antimagic Field, Black Tentacles (or variants), etc. Other interesting carrier effects include adding e.g. Born of Three Thunders to (Energy Substitutioned) Flame Arrow forcing saves vs. stun & knockdown. Thanks to spells you can get a lot out of the single arrow.

EDIT: And then there's the whole matter of if the arrow keeps the spell effect centered. If it does it's even more awesomesauce since the enemy needs to pull the arrow out to even be able to get out of the AMF or whatever you shot at them (enemies without magic just aren't very dangerous). If it doesn't and just uses the initial location of the arrow, that's also fine - you can combine it with narrow spaces or movement limiting instantaneous spells such as Wall of Stone, Wall of Force or their ilk to ensure the enemy remains in the field. You can also combine Widen Spell with this setup. Metamagic Rods, Circlet of Rapid Casting, items adding spells to your spell list (Drake Helm, Runestaff, etc.) help a lot with managing the feat load. You can also use Metamagic Storm [Complete Mage] magical location for an extra metamagic feat and wing the rest. If you wish to use Chain Arrow of Bone/Arrowsplit though, you do need to pick either Ocular Spell or Reach Spell, which you can then combine with Rod of Chain Spell (or the feat itself, but Ocular Arrow of Bone is a 9th level spell).

Also note that by RAW Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow allows you to cast any spell as a standard action. This can be quite broken as there are spells such as Erupt (https://dndtools.net/spells/serpent-kingdoms--24/erupt--3253/) [Serpent Kingdoms] with very long cast times can be cast instantaneously and focused on the arrow. This makes Erupt pretty ridiculous but you don't have to use this to make Imbue Arrow worth it (just simple stuff, Grease, Glitterdust, etc is plenty). It's also worth noting, nothing stops you from combining Imbue Arrow with Smiting Spell for maxing out spells per arrow!

If your DM rules that Imbued spell gets cast once per each arrow (which you can make quite a few of with Arrowsplit (which you can also metamagic with Empower Spell/Maximize Spell), Splitting bow and company), you can deal insane damage with any area damage spells getting cast ~6+ times per Imbue.

That Erupt is an awesome spell so strong o.o with the imbue would be broken :P but its only for cleric :P i will not be able to use...
Any broken spell like that for wiz or bard? xD

Eldariel

2017-08-30, 04:08 PM

That Erupt is an awesome spell so strong o.o with the imbue would be broken :P but its only for cleric :P i will not be able to use...
Any broken spell like that for wiz or bard? xD

Well, stuff like Control Weather, Fimbulwinter [FB], Frostfell [FB], etc. exists but none quite as potent as Erupt. Sadly the only real way to access Erupt would be Shapechanging into a creature with Cleric-casting and preparing it and casting with Southern Magician. Or a custom Domain (would fit right into Fire-domain) or Customize Domain feat (takes Cleric 3) + Arcane Disciple and 19 Wis (+6 item does most of the work).

Saroman

2017-08-30, 08:35 PM

Yea there are some good spells to pick as arcane archer to imbue... I'm just very in doubt if I go...
Bard Virtuoso and Sublime Chord or
Bard 6 arcane archer 2 virtuoso 2 sublime chord 2 virtuoso 8

Darrin

2017-08-30, 10:04 PM

Wyrm Wizard 2 might be able to snag erupt... but you'd need 10th level spells somehow. Sanctum Spell, Versatile + Heighten Spell, or Talfirian Song. It'd be a long wait, though.

Eldariel

2017-08-31, 01:07 AM

Yea there are some good spells to pick as arcane archer to imbue... I'm just very in doubt if I go...
Bard Virtuoso and Sublime Chord or
Bard 6 arcane archer 2 virtuoso 2 sublime chord 2 virtuoso 8

There's a reason I posted Bard 8/AA 2; AA requires +6 BAB so you can't enter it in time as a Bard/Virtuoso. Bard 6/Virtuoso 2 only has +5 BAB so you'd inevitably lose a level of Sublime Chord casting. Again, Heartfire Fanner over Virtuoso is a way to sidestep this issue.

Saroman

2017-08-31, 08:03 AM

Yea i will probably not be able to be an arcane archer xD
Will try to stick with the regular archer bard :D

ExLibrisMortis

2017-08-31, 10:35 AM

A cleric or artificer with Chameleon Crafting and Craft Wondrous Item can get you a knowstone of erupt. It's cheesy as hell, but it does work.

Darrin

2017-08-31, 10:40 AM

As an Archer, I have to draw your attention to spells specifically related to Archery:
Greater Shadow Conjuration [PHB] - Allows replication of Arrowsplit [Champions of Ruin] (other Arrow-spells from the book are Transmutation, sadly), an amazing spell for increasing your DPS particularly if you can affect multiple arrows, as with Chain Spell.

Ok, I'm looking back through some archery-specific spells, and I'm puzzled by this advice here... other than the 60% real vs. 20% real, why wouldn't you use the not-greater shadow conjuration? Also, how are you getting around the "sorcerer/wizard" restriction? Arrowsplit is not on the sorcerer/wizard list. Are we deliberately parsing "any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 6th level or lower" so that we consider the second "or" to be independent rather than dependent?

Arrow of Bone [Spell Compendium] - Makes an arrow force Fort-save vs. death. As above, Chain for frightening power (to chain Touch-range spells, you first need to give them range through e.g. Ocular Spell [Lords of Madness] or Reach Spell [Complete Divine] though).

I looked at this one and added it to the spell list, but finger of death still looks like a better spell: autohits so no chance of missing, and better casting time. Arrow of bone has the much better range, but how often does combat start with your opponents at long range?

Minor/Major Creation [PHB] - Create plant-based poisons like Black Lotus Extract, poison each of your arrows, rain fort-savey death on your enemies.

For poison, I tend to use Chaos Flasks (Planar Handbook). Unless you max out Craft (Poisonmaking), the DC 13 Wis check is probably going to be easier to hit than the DC 35 Craft check for Black Lotus Extract.

Eldariel

2017-08-31, 10:49 AM

Ok, I'm looking back through some archery-specific spells, and I'm puzzled by this advice here... other than the 60% real vs. 20% real, why wouldn't you use the not-greater shadow conjuration? Also, how are you getting around the "sorcerer/wizard" restriction? Arrowsplit is not on the sorcerer/wizard list. Are we deliberately parsing "any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 6th level or lower" so that we consider the second "or" to be independent rather than dependent?

...nevermind, I wrote that out of memory (I remembered that it replicated arcane spells, and I had somehow convinced myself that Arrowsplit is level 4 Assassin, go figure). You're quite correct, it doesn't work here and you're stuck finding another way to replicate Arrowsplit (preferably less expensive than Limited Wish) since the spell is really damn good for Archers.

I looked at this one and added it to the spell list, but finger of death still looks like a better spell: autohits so no chance of missing, and better casting time. Arrow of bone has the much better range, but how often does combat start with your opponents at long range?

Well, you can combine Arrow of Bone with a full attack for example, perhaps even firing multiples. Finger of Death is nice if the enemy fails the save but if they succeed, you still have a backup plan of a lot of arrows and perhaps other saves; it's good for SoD bombardment. In general, you can usually do more with attack + spell than just spell if your damage is reasonably pimped out - it's just easier for your actions to cast your SoDs beforehand and deliver them with one attack action instead of taking a standard action to do so. And perhaps your Splitting bow can force two saves, which is kinda cool. The 3d6+20 damage on a successful save isn't really inconsequential either, even if not the goal.

For poison, I tend to use Chaos Flasks (Planar Handbook). Unless you max out Craft (Poisonmaking), the DC 13 Wis check is probably going to be easier to hit than the DC 35 Craft check for Black Lotus Extract.

That's fair, you'd probably have to use Improvisation and Wand of Guidance of the Avatar as a Bard to make the check, but that does add a cost to the casting since you don't know Guidance natively. Though level 2 Wands aren't too expensive.

Saroman

2017-08-31, 07:19 PM

Eldariel

2017-08-31, 11:45 PM

Is there any other way i can cast inspire courage or dragonfire inspiration without losing an entire turn besides Song of the White Raven???

I dont think i can spare 1 level dip on crusader :/ but this would come in handy be able to cast both on the same turn :D

I was thinking of Bard 7/ Crusader 1/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 10 Toughts?

I will probly Stack the half dragon race ( For Role Play and stats ) Star Elf ( For Arcane Archer ) and Unseelie Fey ( For the feat that adds charisma ) What are your toughts?

PS: This unseelie fey, isnt it bad for the vulnerability?

PS2: Or should i just take 10 levels of Lyric Thaumaturge instead of Virtuoso... ?

The vulnerability isn't too big. And Lyric Thaumaturge does not advance anything but Bard-casting so it doesn't work with Sublime Chord and it's the weaker of the two. So go Virtuoso.

And yeah, that build works but you lose 1 Sublime Chord casting level by taking Virtuoso only after 10 (you only have room for 8 Virtuoso levels before 20 in your build anyways) You could just go Sublime Chord 10 for a different setup of songs to avoid that, and you do still hit 9s by 20 even losing 1 casting level so it's not that bad though. Again, Heartfire Fanner/Sacred Exorcist instead of Virtuoso would sidestep this. Or something else.

One way to Inspire faster is the (Greater) Harmonize spell from Races of Stone. It's low level enough that you can Persist it eventually and makes Inspire a Move Action. On very high levels, you can use Shapechange to forms like Chronotyryn or Choker to get extra actions so that also works for Inspire + Full Round.

Also the Celerity-line spells [PHBII] and Belt of Battle. For best use of Celerity, you use it out of turn order tho - Favor of the Martyr spell (can be Wanded) and Quick Recovery feat [Lords of Madness] allow sidestepping the Daze.

Saroman

2017-09-01, 07:50 AM

I would take Heartifire Fanner in a blink of an eye if its Pre Reqs were better... i cant afford Negotiator and Skill Focus (perform) :(

Darrin

2017-09-01, 08:43 AM

One way to Inspire faster is the (Greater) Harmonize spell from Races of Stone. It's low level enough that you can Persist it eventually and makes Inspire a Move Action. On very high levels, you can use Shapechange to forms like Chronotyryn or Choker to get extra actions so that also works for Inspire + Full Round.

Why would you need the greater version? Non-greater harmonize still lets you start Inspire Courage as a move action. Both versions are dischargeable spells, so I don't believe they are eligible for Persistent Spell. Also, I'm guessing he doesn't have room for two metamagic feats to begin with.

However, you can cast harmonize into a Glyph Seal (1000 GP, MIC). You can key the seal to a pocket with spell components or ammunition, so opening the pocket is a free action. First round could then go:

1) Standard Action: Dragonfire Inspiration.
2) Free Action: Draw spell component/ammunition. Glyph Seal triggers harmonize.
3) Move Action: Inspire Courage.

If you did this every combat, you'd burn through all your 2nd-level spell slots pretty quickly. But if you had multiple Glyph Seals, maybe three or four, you could prep them ahead of time and then wait a day to recover spells.

Is this character starting play at level 1? Or are you starting at a higher level? If so, we might be able to shift some of the feats to Legendary Sites/Magical Locations, where you essentially spend part of your Wealth By Level (WBL) for feats. For example, you can pick up Skill Focus: Perform from Heward's Hall (Complete Scoundrel p. 147). Unfortunately Negotiator isn't available. You can get a metamagic feat for a year from a Metamagic Storm (Complete Mage p. 151).

Eldariel

2017-09-01, 09:11 AM

I would take Heartifire Fanner in a blink of an eye if its Pre Reqs were better... i cant afford Negotiator and Skill Focus (perform) :(

That's fair. Virtuoso isn't bad, and you can make it work but ½ BAB will of course suck a bit. With Vest of Legend you'll still hit full Inspire Courage eventually.

EDIT: Yeah, fair, I forgot Harmonize is dischargeable - that does rain on said parade. And yes, 2nd level Harmonize suffices but you can only pick the 4th level one as Sublime Chord spell since SC gets no lower level spells available. Of course, there are plenty of ways to get it off as a quicker action though. Just Quickened Harmonize (off e.g. Circlet of Rapid Casting), Move Action Dragonfire Inspiration and Standard Action spell/Imbue Arrow does work too though, but Glyph Seals are of course always great.

Saroman

2017-09-01, 09:22 AM

Cant i use flaws to get some feats? How many i can use?

Eldariel

2017-09-01, 09:30 AM

Cant i use flaws to get some feats? How many i can use?

Normally a character can have two flaws, but you can of course ask your DM for more. You can also use the Bard ACF "Music of Creation" from Eberron Campaign Settings to trade the new song on 3rd or 6th level for bonus feats. I wouldn't recommend trading Inspire Competence away unless your DM states that these feats don't need to meet prerequisites as Song of the Heart requires Inspire Competence. However, you can easily use your 6th level ability to pick up Song of the Heart for free.

This frees up 3 feats total, and then you can use Heward's Hall for Skill Focus (Perform) as mentioned above. That's fairly reasonable, though you're still quite feat starved of course.

Saroman

2017-09-01, 01:42 PM

Mehhh i tought you could have more xD

Im starting at level 6 or 7

Any way i can add Evasion or Imp Evasion with not a lot of effort?

Eldariel

2017-09-01, 01:45 PM

Mehhh i tought you could have more xD

Im starting at level 6 or 7

Any way i can add Evasion or Imp Evasion with not a lot of effort?

Shadow creature template or Ring of Evasion. See Lists of Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454553-Lists-of-Stuff-(saved-from-Wizards-Community-Forums)) for more details.

Saroman

2017-09-01, 01:49 PM

Shadow creature template or Ring of Evasion. See Lists of Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454553-Lists-of-Stuff-(saved-from-Wizards-Community-Forums)) for more details.

Im already using the fey template you suggested xD

Eldariel

2017-09-01, 02:03 PM

Im already using the fey template you suggested xD

I definitely recommend Ring of Evasion once you can reasonably afford it, then.

Hiro Quester

2017-09-01, 02:30 PM

Is there any other way i can cast inspire courage or dragonfire inspiration without losing an entire turn besides Song of the White Raven???

Yes.
Melodic casting feat lets you cast while singing. (also lets you use perform for concentration checks.

Harmonize spell (2nd level RoS) makes starting a bardic music a move action. (Make a continuous-use magic item of this when you can afford it).

Now you can sing (move action) and cast a standard action and/or swift action spell.

Saroman

2017-09-01, 04:59 PM

Yes.
Melodic casting feat lets you cast while singing. (also lets you use perform for concentration checks.

Harmonize spell (2nd level RoS) makes starting a bardic music a move action. (Make a continuous-use magic item of this when you can afford it).

Now you can sing (move action) and cast a standard action and/or swift action spell.

What would be the cost of that?

Darrin

2017-09-01, 06:57 PM

What would be the cost of that?

Continuous harmonize item would be:

2 (spell level) x 4 (caster level) x 2,000 x 2 (duration in minutes) = 32,000 GP.

Saroman

2017-09-02, 07:16 AM

That Is kinda expensive XD but I will try to save

Hiro Quester

2017-09-02, 07:51 PM

That Is kinda expensive XD but I will try to save

Not the most important purchase. But the spell is 1min/level, so if you have time to prepare for a combat encounter, it's worth at least knowing the spell.

And yeah, Heartfire Fanner has a high feat tax.

I got to play one mostly because the DM was running a super-powered campaign, and gave players DM-chosen feats that our gods awarded for the services we were providing them. Being the party face, the gods had granted my character the Negotiator and Perform Focus feats before 12th level.